Getting rid of Short Rests......... and Bards

[Starchild7309]

With the release of material lately it look like WOTC is trying to get rid of the short rest mechanic. don't care one way or another, but I was curious how they would do it. I see the mechanic is now short rest resets are replaced by # of times per long rest equal to prof bonus. Most classes this would work for and it actually allows more uses on average. However, with Bard, their inspirations are tied to the CHA bonus and Font of Inspiration allows a reset after a short rest so how would you balance that without basically removing a class ability? Also, the Song of Rest ability is specifically for short rests, so would they again lose a class ability or do you think there is something else that can replace it?

I have seen a lot of speculation about this move from WOTC and it seems like most classes would improve, but this would hinder bards. Any thoughts are welcome.

[Mastikator]

Charisma modifier x proficiency bonus (min 1)?

[Anonymouswizard]

So my guess is that for levels 1-4 Bards switch to Proficiency Bonus times per LR, and twice that at 5th level and after. Song of Rest works as intended but the wording might change, even if Short Rests won't matter for resource management (which I'm suspicious of) I suspect they'll still be there for hit dice based healing, just potentially renamed.

[Starchild7309]

So my guess is that for levels 1-4 Bards switch to Proficiency Bonus times per LR, and twice that at 5th level and after. Song of Rest works as intended but the wording might change, even if Short Rests won't matter for resource management (which I'm suspicious of) I suspect they'll still be there for hit dice based healing, just potentially renamed.

How so? Song of Rest state in the description that characters get the bonus only after a short rest when using HD. If there is no short rest, no one is using HD and there for song of rest is useless.

I also don't see how you can move inspiration to being tied to proficiency when it is such a small bonus and they would get 2 a day, especially with bards being able to use their inspiration to do other things, it seems like it would weaken the bard considerably where tying things like the number of times a spell like ability can be used to proficiency actually makes the other classes stronger.

Maybe I am not understanding what you are explaining.

[Anonymouswizard]

How so? Song of Rest state in the description that characters get the bonus only after a short rest when using HD. If there is no short rest, no one is using HD and there for song of rest is useless.

Change Song of Rest to something like 'when the party has a Breather ect.'

Define a breather as 'resting for [time] after an encounter, which allows PCs to spend dice in order to heal'.

I also don't see how you can move inspiration to being tied to proficiency when it is such a small bonus and they would get 2 a day, especially with bards being able to use their inspiration to do other things, it seems like it would weaken the bard considerably where tying things like the number of times a spell like ability can be used to proficiency actually makes the other classes stronger.

Maybe I am not understanding what you are explaining.

At 1-4 it's a minor nerf, but roughly the same number of uses. At 5+ it's a bigger nerf but potentially balanced out by being able to burn them all in a single encounter.

Of course that's just my guess for a quick and dirty reworking. It's possible it could begin at 2*Proficiency before upgrading to 3*Proficiency or even 4*Proficiency. It's also not impossible for other boosts to be given to make up for lost uses (I can potentially see it being reworked to give Inspiration Dice to the entire party) or entire new abilities.

[Jervis]

Hot take, making inspiration at will wouldn’t break the game.

[Witty Username]

Hot take, making inspiration at will wouldn’t break the game.

I want to play a swords bard at your table, adding a +5ish AC to my bard every round sounds like like fun.
Level 1 dip in hexblade for the shield spell, do some shenanigans.

[samcifer]

I doubt short rests are going away. Doing so would make warlocks nearly unplayable as well as monks and fighters. Other classes and subclasses benefit from short rests as well. I just think that they are trying to make less things rely on getting short rests, mostly racial abilities.

[Jervis]

I doubt short rests are going away. Doing so would make warlocks nearly unplayable as well as monks and fighters. Other classes and subclasses benefit from short rests as well. I just think that they are trying to make less things rely on getting short rests, mostly racial abilities.

For my money i think short rest based abilities, especially as a class's main mechanic, are better for the game than long rest recharge mechanics because short rest classes work well in nonstandard adventuring days. It also helps addresses the problem of SR classes getting boned by groups that don't know da rulez. A guy i play with often has a horror story of playing a warlock in a campaign that never had a single short rest. Making every class care about it a lot would be a good thing IMO.

I want to play a swords bard at your table, adding a +5ish AC to my bard every round sounds like like fun.
Level 1 dip in hexblade for the shield spell, do some shenanigans.

Not sure if sarcasm but, while i admit subclass features unbalance inspiration recovery more than the basic inspiration use, i have toyed with it. I have a as of yet untested rules patch for bards. (for reasons i can't fathom no player wants to use my homebrew rules) Basically bards recover a inspiration die whenever they use the help action and each subclass has a specific feature that can recover one as an reaction when X thing happens. Valor can use a reaction to recover a inspiration die whenever a friendly creature scores a critical or drops a creature to 0. Spirits can do it whenever a creature dies. Lore whenever a you target a friendly creature with a spell that has an action casting time. Swords can get one whenever a creature within 15 feet provokes a AoO, they also just get one whenever they make a AoO. ETC. And yes this does mean every bard would enter combat on full inspiration. I'm trying to think up ways to add dynamic recovery to a lot of abilities in 5E. Makes combat more interesting and varies up the actions people take.

[noob]

For my money i think short rest based abilities, especially as a class's main mechanic, are better for the game than long rest recharge mechanics because short rest classes work well in nonstandard adventuring days. It also helps addresses the problem of SR classes getting boned by groups that don't know da rulez. A guy i play with often has a horror story of playing a warlock in a campaign that never had a single short rest. Making every class care about it a lot would be a good thing IMO.

If we remove short rests entirely then long rests becomes the standard way of resting and we have to rewrite short rest classes to get 3 times short rest resources on a long rest.
If we remove long rest based classes then short rests becomes the standard way of resting.
Regardless of which option we pick it makes it so that everybody manages their resources the same way and that there is only one kind of rest.
So I think we could pick to make every class care only about long rests or care only about short rests and it would have the positive results you want.

Spirits can do it whenever a creature dies

Murder bards! Murdering for inspiration!
When one wants to write a book they capture a hundred peasants and murder them as they are writing.
Everybody is terrified of bards from the spirits bardic school.

[clash]

Of we remove short rests entirely then long rests becomes the standard way of resting and we have to rewrite short rest classes to get 3 times short rest resources on a long rest.
If we remove long rest based classes then short rests becomes the standard way of resting.
Regardless of which option we pick it makes it so that everybody manages their resources the same way and that there is only one kind of rest.
So I think we could pick to make every class care only about long rests or care only about short rests and it would have the positive results you want.
Murder bards! Murdering for inspiration!
When one wants to write a book they capture a hundred peasants and murder them as they are writing.
Everybody is terrified of bards from the spirits bardic school.

I think removing long rests would be the better option if the concern is balance as it also limits nova capacity and the 5 minute work day.

[Mastikator]

So my guess is that for levels 1-4 Bards switch to Proficiency Bonus times per LR, and twice that at 5th level and after. Song of Rest works as intended but the wording might change, even if Short Rests won't matter for resource management (which I'm suspicious of) I suspect they'll still be there for hit dice based healing, just potentially renamed.

Levels 1 - 4 works as normal, charisma modifiers per long rest. "x per short rest" is replaced with x times proficiency bonus.

Levels 5 and beyond it's charisma modifier times proficiency modifier. If you got 18 cha at level 5 then it's 4 x 3 = 12.

[Frogreaver]

Short rests will still be around for hit dice healing. Proficiency bonus times per day doesn't actually scale correctly for short rest characters. It's a decent way to design new abilities but it's impossible to convert old ones to that without alot of manual intervention - making the rule ultimately fiddly.

[stoutstien]

Set daily BI to equal Cha mod x 3.
Set max prepared BI to CHA mod.
Allow regaining one BI per minute of nonstrenuous activity.

[Anonymouswizard]

Levels 1 - 4 works as normal, charisma modifiers per long rest. "x per short rest" is replaced with x times proficiency bonus.

Levels 5 and beyond it's charisma modifier times proficiency modifier. If you got 18 cha at level 5 then it's 4 x 3 = 12.

At high levels that's a massive increase compared to the assumed 2SR adventuring day. It's comparable at levels 5-8, but then every time PB goes up it's equivalent to another SR in the adventuring day.by level 17 you're at TWICE the number of BIs you're assumed to have.

That's why I would expect about Proficiency Bonus*3. It's a bit of a drop at low levels but a small boost at higher levels.

It's also possible that they'll just change to a level based progression, X uses to start and then +1 every Y levels.

[Greywander]

I think the flaw with short rests was that they tried to occupy a space between per encounter and per day, but ended up just becoming one or the other depending on your table. It would make a lot more sense to me if they added a new 1 minute rest (essentially per encounter) and moved short rest abilities to using that instead. But I can still see there being a use case for short rests, e.g. when you don't want an ability to be essentially at-will outside of combat but also don't want to require an entire long rest to recharge it. For example, Pact Magic running on 1 minute rests would essentially mean at-will casting out of combat (which could actually be pretty fun, but would definitely be a balance shift).

I think they could have also done a better job of making every class want both long rests and short rests. I never hear people complaining about never getting long rests, so it's pretty clear that short rests are the problem, and WotC should have done a better job making short rests desirable for every character. Even something as simple as being able to give yourself advantage to any d20 roll once per short rest as a general ability available to all characters could have made a big difference. Or maybe a Lucky style reroll. Hmm, actually, I quite like that idea. One reroll per short rest, so now you want to short rest any time you've used your reroll.

But alas, I don't really see them doing any of these things. You can hack in something like a once per short rest reroll into your own game, but I doubt such a rule will become standard, nor do I expect to see a 1 minute rest added to the game.

[Jervis]

If we remove short rests entirely then long rests becomes the standard way of resting and we have to rewrite short rest classes to get 3 times short rest resources on a long rest.
If we remove long rest based classes then short rests becomes the standard way of resting.
Regardless of which option we pick it makes it so that everybody manages their resources the same way and that there is only one kind of rest.
So I think we could pick to make every class care only about long rests or care only about short rests and it would have the positive results you want.

Yeah. I mostly prefer short rests instead of long because it discourages 5 minute adventuring days that result is massive novas all encounter. But that’s just my opinion

Murder bards! Murdering for inspiration!
When one wants to write a book they capture a hundred peasants and murder them as they are writing.
Everybody is terrified of bards from the spirits bardic school.

Quote the Kenku “nevermore”.

[Kane0]

With the release of material lately it look like WOTC is trying to get rid of the short rest mechanic. don't care one way or another, but I was curious how they would do it. I see the mechanic is now short rest resets are replaced by # of times per long rest equal to prof bonus. Most classes this would work for and it actually allows more uses on average. However, with Bard, their inspirations are tied to the CHA bonus and Font of Inspiration allows a reset after a short rest so how would you balance that without basically removing a class ability? Also, the Song of Rest ability is specifically for short rests, so would they again lose a class ability or do you think there is something else that can replace it?

Inspiration: You either double or triple it, depending on your table

Song of rest: have it function like inspiring leader, but for healing with a limitation of X times per long rest. Or have it enable people to spend hit dice without short resting, with the same one or ten minutes to use.

[Foolwise]

Murder bards! Murdering for inspiration!
When one wants to write a book they capture a hundred peasants and murder them as they are writing.
Everybody is terrified of bards from the spirits bardic school.

This is how William Shakespeare earned his nickname.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah. I mostly prefer short rests instead of long because it discourages 5 minute adventuring days that result is massive novas all encounter. But that’s just my opinion

I'd honestly love to switch all classes onto short rests for their primary resources, it would just require almost completely reworking the standard spellcasting system to deal with it.

Then again I'd just like to see less spellcasting classes and more mundanes in general. For my next game I'm very much considering removing the Bard and Ranger and porting in the AiME Wanderer and Warden.

[Kane0]

I'd honestly love to switch all classes onto short rests for their primary resources, it would just require almost completely reworking the standard spellcasting system to deal with it.

Then again I'd just like to see less spellcasting classes and more mundanes in general. For my next game I'm very much considering removing the Bard and Ranger and porting in the AiME Wanderer and Warden.

I'd buy that splatbook, or more accurately a pdf of it.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Then again I'd just like to see less spellcasting classes and more mundanes in general. .

I have an idle fantasy of making full casters -> 1/2 casters and 1/2 casters -> 1/3 casters and 1/3 casters -> "special" (aka having selected tricks), and then giving them all a bunch more actual features that aren't spells but are still interesting. Make spell levels 6+ exist, but gaining the ability to cast them requires a quest/setting dependent. And they'd be closer to warlock Mystic Arcana (ie 1/x per day SLAs instead of spell slots). It's not "you have all these spells you can switch out", but you're one of the rare people who can actually cast teleport.

[Witty Username]

Not sure if sarcasm but,

No sarcasm, genuine statement. I think it would amount to an edge case for the most part, sounds kinda fun, and I have some concerns on power but it is more fun to playtest and fix than undercut without getting data first.

Hexblade/swords bard is a thing I have done before, and it felt strong already. I think it is the most likely to be a problem with the buff. But hardly the scariest thing to do with a warlock dip anyway.

[Greywander]

I'd honestly love to switch all classes onto short rests for their primary resources, it would just require almost completely reworking the standard spellcasting system to deal with it.

Not necessarily. Warlock is a thing, after all. Though 6th+ level spells should still be tied to long rests. If I'm understanding you right you're talking about workhorse abilities (something you'd want available in every combat), and not ultimate moves (which 6th+ level spells are comparable to).

I've said this before, but the warlock feels like someone built a caster class using the design principles for martials. I think the warlock is a little better balanced against martials, and plays more similarly to a martial as well. While I'd hate for the warlock to get pushed out of its niche, moving all other casters to short rest slots could be a good thing. It could also open up some design space to make casters more distinct, e.g. leaning more heavily into rituals for wizards, or maybe bards being able to have a spell up all the time by playing music, or other quirky mechanics. Right now, casters feel pretty samey in their base mechanics, aside from the warlock.

[Kane0]

Not necessarily. Warlock is a thing, after all. Though 6th+ level spells should still be tied to long rests. If I'm understanding you right you're talking about workhorse abilities (something you'd want available in every combat), and not ultimate moves (which 6th+ level spells are comparable to).

I've said this before, but the warlock feels like someone built a caster class using the design principles for martials. I think the warlock is a little better balanced against martials, and plays more similarly to a martial as well. While I'd hate for the warlock to get pushed out of its niche, moving all other casters to short rest slots could be a good thing. It could also open up some design space to make casters more distinct, e.g. leaning more heavily into rituals for wizards, or maybe bards being able to have a spell up all the time by playing music, or other quirky mechanics. Right now, casters feel pretty samey in their base mechanics, aside from the warlock.

I did a sorc rework which could be retooled for short rests with little effort. Just turn down the total size of the SP pool and recharge more on a SR, or maybe all of them and give another class feature at level 2.

[Witty Username]

Hm, I could see a short rest model working, I think we would have this conversation in reverse if all casters were short rest casters though. Also, I don't think warlock is that balanced in comparison to martials, at least not because of rest mechanics (they might have the worst spell list of all casters, I think that is the bigger factor).

I would say wizard should stay a long rest caster, having to plan ahead constantly rather than wipe away your tactical decisions every short rest fits their theme better, and having as a niche having to leverage low level spells because they can't make their high level ones last throughout the day fits the planning, lacking in innate power type.

Sorcerer doesn't really fit well between warlock and wizard already, I would personally cut it and divide its themes between warlock and wizard personally.

Cleric has some issues as it has alot of the emergency spells, 2 slots a short rest would break alot of functionality for healing word and Revifivy. Maybe offload those effects into channel divinity as it is already an emergency button of sorts. So they woulf effectively get more spell slots on a short rest but weaker effects.

Druid has similar problems to cleric but have more scary spells, so short rest conversion might just work as is.

I got nothing for half-casters and not sure what to do with bards.

But I like casters as is generally, so I haven't given this much thought.

[Kane0]

Hm, I could see a short rest model working, I think we would have this conversation in reverse if all casters were short rest casters though.

Aye, such is the nature of theory

I would say wizard should stay a long rest caster, having to plan ahead constantly rather than wipe away your tactical decisions every short rest fits their theme better, and having as a niche having to leverage low level spells because they can't make their high level ones last throughout the day fits the planning, lacking in innate power type.

Fair distinction, especially if you lean on rituals.

Sorcerer doesn't really fit well between warlock and wizard already, I would personally cut it and divide its themes between warlock and wizard personally.

A criticism Sorcs have faced basically the entirety of this edition. If you were making these changes this would be a good opportunity to give them a more concrete niche, like being the only spell point caster long or short rest.

Cleric has some issues as it has alot of the emergency spells, 2 slots a short rest would break alot of functionality for healing word and Revifivy.

Druid has similar problems to cleric but have more scary spells, so short rest conversion might just work as is.

Doesnt have to be two short rest autoscaling slots exactly like pact magic, you could have a combination of low, mid and high end slots each on their own recovery.

I got nothing for half-casters and not sure what to do with bards.

Paladins could be like clerics especially since they both get channels
Rangers could get a naturey equivalent of incovations to show magical tricks they pick up
Bards could trade most of their standard casting for special rituals and other magical effects fueled by performances or bardic inspiration dice.

[Jervis]

I'd honestly love to switch all classes onto short rests for their primary resources, it would just require almost completely reworking the standard spellcasting system to deal with it.

Then again I'd just like to see less spellcasting classes and more mundanes in general. For my next game I'm very much considering removing the Bard and Ranger and porting in the AiME Wanderer and Warden.

I’m slowly chipping away at a rewrite of 5e’s class structure that makes the majority of the game SR or encounter based, condenses most of the mechanics from all the casters to 2-3 warlock based casters (might cut one of them, having trouble differentiating them enough), adds 2 Psionics classes, and adds martial initiators.

[Greywander]

It does irk me a bit that caster classes feel so similar. But I think part of that is down to fulfilling player expectations. Wizards who can only do rituals is a neat idea, and could actually play really well to the playstyle of those who are generally attracted to wizards (e.g. planning ahead, preparing things in advance, etc.), but so many players would be disappointed when they find out their wizard can't just throw fireballs. Not to mention wizards as a concept have been around in D&D for a long time, and honestly I don't think it's really fair to change it so radically in a new edition. Better to create a new IP where you don't have to deal with any baggage.

Ditto for most other caster classes. Now, if I were making a new IP, I think what I'd do is first sit down and write up unique magic systems that all work in different ways. For example, one magic system might be based entirely around drawing magic circles. Another might involve making contracts with spirits to provide you services in exchange for some fee when you call upon them. Another might involve magical music. Or words of power. Or alchemy. And so on and so forth. Each one uses unique mechanics, instead of just being fluff differences. I would then make exactly one class built around each of these magic systems, with the base class focused almost entirely on developing that magic system as you level up, and then different subclasses can be used to give different spins on particular magic systems.

Of course, if I'm going that far, I'm probably not making a class-based system at all, as I prefer more open skill-based systems, but that's personal preference. Honestly, D&D isn't my cup of tea, but 5e does a fantastic job of streamlining things and making the parts I don't like as much a bit more tolerable. All that to say that I probably don't have quite the same design goals as the original devs did.

I'd probably also expand the existing rest system, and make sure each rest type has value to every class. I've mentioned adding a 1 minute rest to incorporate per encounter features, but some other rest ideas that you could use are the holiday (8 hours of sleep + 8 hours of light activity, in the same 24 hour period), and the vacation (7 consecutive holidays). Part of the intent of holidays and vacations is that these resources are more along the lines of per adventure resources, usually requiring you to return to town to rest in a safe location. If we were just adapting the existing spell slot system, I could see making 1st and 2nd level slots come back on a 1 minute break, while 9th level slots might require a full vacation. It might also scale as you level, so a 1st level caster might require a long rest to refresh a 1st level slot, but at higher levels they can get them back on a short rest, and eventually a 1 minute break.

[Hytheter]

I'd probably also expand the existing rest system, and make sure each rest type has value to every class. I've mentioned adding a 1 minute rest to incorporate per encounter features, but some other rest ideas that you could use are the holiday (8 hours of sleep + 8 hours of light activity, in the same 24 hour period), and the vacation (7 consecutive holidays). Part of the intent of holidays and vacations is that these resources are more along the lines of per adventure resources, usually requiring you to return to town to rest in a safe location. If we were just adapting the existing spell slot system, I could see making 1st and 2nd level slots come back on a 1 minute break, while 9th level slots might require a full vacation.

Exit 5min adventuring day, enter 5min adventuring week.