Arcane Trickster/Warlock Help

[virtualslayer22]

Looking for some insight and spitballing on a character path(s). Quick Look: half-drow, 3AT/2Warlock; Invocations: MoMF, Eldritch Sight.

Stats: Str-10 | Dex-18 | Con-16 | Int-20 | Wis-14 | Cha-20

I know. I know. Level 4 AT to take the ASI bump and get Dex to 20. No brainer.

However… if I go 3/3 split, this sets me up for the next two level ups to take either 2 ASIs in a row or an ASI and a feat..

Currently, I’d bump my two level 1 Warlock spell slots up to level 2 and take a Pact Boon if I go 3rd level in Warlock. Top choices are Chain/Tome/Blade, but I already have an owl familiar.. Realistically, I won’t go much further than 4th level in Warlock for this character (unless I can be convinced otherwise).

Other options this level up include feats:
Crossbow Expert, Defensive Duelist, Mobile, Drow High Magic (if DM allows), Skill Expert, Eldritch Adept, Fighting Initiate are top choices..

Would love to hear any input and/or thoughts for this progression. It's a super fun character so far.

[Corran]

Mask of many faces and eldritch site are great on rogues. As an arcane trickser you have access to both spells, though you wont be able to cast them at will as with the invocations. Detect magic is more difficult to pick since it's neither an illusion nor an enchantment spell, so grabbing the invocation makes it considerably easier to include without sacrificing spell picks like find familiar. And again, having it at will makes it a lot easier to use and having it at demand is pretty important eg when you are scouting (because some fights might be around the corner so you wont to save up spell slots while also probably wanting to spam deect magic just to be on the safe side. But disguise self, being an illusion spell, is far easier to pick as an arcane trickster compared to detect magic. Having disuise self at will can be important, but unless you are leaning heavily on disguises for infiltrating places in a hurry with the aim of gaining some advantage just before getting into combat, you could probably rely on slots for fueling it in return of freeing up one invocation for something else. That something else could be a lot of things. Personally I am very fond of devil sight on rogues, as it checks two of the things I really want to have on a rogue. 1) Improved darkvision. I want improved darkvision for two reasons. Firstly so I can be a better scout. Being able to potentially see any enemies before they see me is a considerable advantage when scouting. Also, no diasdvantage on perception checks while in darkness (though dim light still hurts you) makes scouting more effctive and safer too. And secondly, because the increased darkvision range will sometimes allow me advantage on my ranged attack by virtue of allowing me to attack while unseen. And 2), assuming lots of levels going into rogue, because devil's sight compared with darkness allows me to fight in heavy obscurement (darkness is not the only way, though if you go with devil's sight instead of say, blind fighting, you are limited to darkness for this), which melee rogues can take advantage of to pull of a number of tricks, like triggering BB's secondary damage more easily, becoming hidden and thus potentially untargettable and getting the opportunity to apply some off turn sneak attack damage via OA's after having successfully hidden first.

With the arcane trickster I am playing I've covered both of these in a different way. Blind fighting from a 1 lvl fighter dip, currently paired darkness (later on I'll retrain levitate to fog cloud so I'll have that option too). And improved darkvisision from being a drow, along with the observant feat for boosting my perception. I like the fighter level (and later on levels) for several more reasons, but a warlock mc is pretty great too and devil's sight alone covers a lot of things I would aim to get one way or another.


For feats there are plenty of good choices. If you try to get advantage as often as possible (and you have various means to make this happen), EA is pretty good, particularly if you find ways to attack with your reactions with advantage too. If you end up taking devil's sight it will take some pressure off of your perception checks, but even then, something like observant or skulker could be solid choices. Actor for combining with disguise self for social pillar shenanigans is great for rp if you like this sort of thing (dont mind the wasted cha bump, you are here almost entirely for the voice mimicing and to a far lesser extent for the advantage on the relevant checks). Resilient con (or warcaster if you prefer it for some reason; I dont for such a character) is pretty good for when you'll get access to haste (and good for spells you can combine with magical ambush to a good efffect, like hypnotic pattern or earlier on something levitate). Moderately armored can be ok for getting proficient with shields though it might still be too expensive even for someone with good stats like your character (I generally prefer getting shield prof through mc'ing). Sharpshooter is great if you can find ways to exploit an increased firing range (which sometimes allows for more cover options for your enemies). Sentinel can be good if you build enough SA dice and countermeasures (like AC bumps) so you can matbe use it for some good off turn SA damage with your reaction (though be careful, sentinel can get you lots of attention from enemies). There are lots of good choices for feats.


As for level split. Well, there are many ways you can do it. For a heavy warlock build and given your current split, I'd probably stop at arcane trickster 3 and continue with leveling up in warlock (so here rogue is picked mostly fo cunning action which would be a great stopping point by itself since warlocks can use this mobility; but a 3rd level for some extra cantrips and spells along with mage hand legendermain is justifiable too). For a mostly havy rogue build there are many cut off warlock points and the final split is far more debatable. Warlock 2 for invocations and some extra cantrips and spells makes sense, warlock 3 for a pact and access to 2nd level spells (lots of good utiliy there; also misty step, which though not a definite pick it's still pretty tempting) makes sense. Warlock 5 makes sense for 3rd level spells (among which you can get haste; though I'd generally prefer to pair haste with lots of sneak attack die, so I'd either stop there or more likely I would aim for a lower warlock dip and aim to get haste from arcane trickster; though there are other good level 3 spells, like for example dispel magic, which paired with eldritch sight makes you good at infiltrating places protected by magical traps and wards. Level 6 warlock makes sense by virtue of arcane trickster 14 might be a good stopping point because it gets you a 3rd non enchantment/illusion spell and blindsense. Level 7 warlock can make sense for dimension door and greater invisibility. Level 9 warlock makes sense if you really want a few certain 5th level spells. Level 11 warlock makes a lot of sense if you already went up to warlock 9. Level 13 warlock gives you forcecage. And level 17 warlock is better than whatever a few more rogue levels can get you if you are already t warlock 13. You have to figure out how much you want to rely on sneak attack damage and arcane trickster and rogue goodies (like expertise, magical ambush and reliable talent) and thus fogure out a good stopping point in warlock, and then think if the warlock goodies are good enough to justify delaying your rogue progression (much of it also relies on how much you value long term investments over short term ones, as is the case with a lot of multiclassing anyway; eg do I get one more warlock level to get invisibility early, or do I pick something else or dont advance in warlock at all and I wait for invisibility as a cheap pick at arcane trickster 7?). Level progression is like the final step after you've figured out how you want your character to behave in combat and out of it.

[solidork]

As someone who played a half elf Eldritch Knight/Warlock all the way to level 18, I am giving you a high five for your build. Eldritch Sight doesn't get enough love imo, it was really good for me.

What Warlock Patron did you pick? I think I might actually go 3/3 in your situation if I was intending to go Pact of the Tome - 2nd level Spells and 3 cantrips is a huge increase in versatility for a single level. There are 8 level 2 spells that I'd potentially be interested in, just on the base Warlock list, and there could be more on your Pact list.

Pact of the Chain doesn't interest me too much personally - learning Find Familiar another way would let you swap out your Rogue any-school spell to something else, like Shield, but Pact of the Tome can let you do the same thing if you take Book of Ancient Secrets, which is another huge increase to your utility. Another reason I don't like Chain is that the Imp is generally the best choice, but thats not a very thematic choice for most of the Patrons. What are you hoping to get out of Chain?

I think Warcaster should be on your list of potential feats to take; if you've got Booming Blade then you'll have the potential for some of the nastiest opportunity attacks in the game. You could also have decent choices for leveled spells to cast with it, like Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Hold Person and Suggestion.

I think if I were playing the character, I'd end up going something like 12 AT/8 Warlock. The level 13 AT feature is pretty lackluster if you've got access to Steady Aim, and you'll end up getting 3rd level spells at the same time (13/4 vs 12/5) and you'll eventually get access to 4th level slots. Your stats are so good you could even miss out on an ASI and go 11/9 for 5th level slots. Investing this much in Warlock would mean less sneak attack damage, but increase your versatility through a slightly advanced spell progression and the ability to take things other than enchantment/illusion spells more freely. That'd be a long way off though.

[virtualslayer22]

For feats there are plenty of good choices. If you try to get advantage as often as possible (and you have various means to make this happen), EA is pretty good, particularly if you find ways to attack with your reactions with advantage too. If you end up taking devil's sight it will take some pressure off of your perception checks, but even then, something like observant or skulker could be solid choices. Actor for combining with disguise self for social pillar shenanigans is great for rp if you like this sort of thing (dont mind the wasted cha bump, you are here almost entirely for the voice mimicing and to a far lesser extent for the advantage on the relevant checks). Resilient con (or warcaster if you prefer it for some reason; I dont for such a character) is pretty good for when you'll get access to haste (and good for spells you can combine with magical ambush to a good efffect, like hypnotic pattern or earlier on something levitate). Moderately armored can be ok for getting proficient with shields though it might still be too expensive even for someone with good stats like your character (I generally prefer getting shield prof through mc'ing). Sharpshooter is great if you can find ways to exploit an increased firing range (which sometimes allows for more cover options for your enemies). Sentinel can be good if you build enough SA dice and countermeasures (like AC bumps) so you can matbe use it for some good off turn SA damage with your reaction (though be careful, sentinel can get you lots of attention from enemies). There are lots of good choices for feats.

I actually already have the observant feat. It's a super dope bump to my passive skills - 20/20/15. I have not made great use of the lip reading aspect, but that's on me. I need to remember that I have this ability. Devil's Sight is absolutely on my list of things I would love to have for my character. I originally planned to grab DS first to use with Darkness, but I was talked out of it by a party member -hindering them from being able to see, if its a boss it could be dispelled easier, won't use it often, etc. And in their defense, I have gotten great use out of MoMf and ES so far. Its great just running ES constantly to find things. Our DM doesn't normally penalize us for checks with Darkvision, but I do like the potential for improved DV. Actor is a feat I will be looking into as well, as it will greatly improve my mimic ability and disguises. Shields, I am not planning on utilizing, however I do have the shield spell. I love the sneak attack dmg, but the thought of Warlock perks is enticing, esp Invisibility. I have never run a full/heavy Warlock, would this hurt my character being more the face of the party and the skill monkey?

[virtualslayer22]

As someone who played a half elf Eldritch Knight/Warlock all the way to level 18, I am giving you a high five for your build. Eldritch Sight doesn't get enough love imo, it was really good for me.

What Warlock Patron did you pick? I think I might actually go 3/3 in your situation if I was intending to go Pact of the Tome - 2nd level Spells and 3 cantrips is a huge increase in versatility for a single level. There are 8 level 2 spells that I'd potentially be interested in, just on the base Warlock list, and there could be more on your Pact list.

Pact of the Chain doesn't interest me too much personally - learning Find Familiar another way would let you swap out your Rogue any-school spell to something else, like Shield, but Pact of the Tome can let you do the same thing if you take Book of Ancient Secrets, which is another huge increase to your utility. Another reason I don't like Chain is that the Imp is generally the best choice, but thats not a very thematic choice for most of the Patrons. What are you hoping to get out of Chain?

I think Warcaster should be on your list of potential feats to take; if you've got Booming Blade then you'll have the potential for some of the nastiest opportunity attacks in the game. You could also have decent choices for leveled spells to cast with it, like Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Hold Person and Suggestion.

I think if I were playing the character, I'd end up going something like 12 AT/8 Warlock. The level 13 AT feature is pretty lackluster if you've got access to Steady Aim, and you'll end up getting 3rd level spells at the same time (13/4 vs 12/5) and you'll eventually get access to 4th level slots. Your stats are so good you could even miss out on an ASI and go 11/9 for 5th level slots. Investing this much in Warlock would mean less sneak attack damage, but increase your versatility through a slightly advanced spell progression and the ability to take things other than enchantment/illusion spells more freely. That'd be a long way off though.

My patron is The Celestial, so imp wouldn't be great thematically. I do have an owl familiar already, who I utilize often for SA and advantage.

What are the 8 level 2 spells you have in mind? I have never run a very heavy magic character as I normally get overwhelmed by spell choices and combinations. Chain I like the ability to have an invisible familiar, but I am in agreement I can utilize my owl just as well. Plus, I love owls - so there's that lol. BoAS sounds fun - is it mostly ritual spells that can be used in it? I would love to put FF in there and free up a spell slot if possible.

I like the thought of your progression. I do want more SA dmg, but I am loving the versatility with this character. If Warlock can continue to add to that, I am in. I do think I will be going 3/3 for this level up, as it will at least set me up nicely for whatever I decide to do moving forward - and give me some more time to flesh out this character. I haven't quite found what/how I would like this character to behave yet. In my mind, he's brash, assertive, bold, but also cautious (calculating may be a better word). He knows there are currently bigger, meaner, badder things that can result from his actions - some handed down from the DM for his brashness and some just not wanting to cause too much trouble this early on. I think by the time he's further along, I would like for him to be relatively unafraid, calculating, self-aware, and able to quickly assess a situation to use his AT and skills to turn any encounter (combat or social) to his advantage.

[solidork]

What are the 8 level 2 spells you have in mind? I have never run a very heavy magic character as I normally get overwhelmed by spell choices and combinations.

Level 2 Warlock Spells I could myself see taking on an AT/Warlock:
Hold Person
Invisibility
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Shadow Blade
Shatter
Spider Climb
Suggestion

Shatter doesn't really fit thematically, but having access to some kind of AOE is useful.

[Corran]

I actually already have the observant feat. It's a super dope bump to my passive skills - 20/20/15. I have not made great use of the lip reading aspect, but that's on me. I need to remember that I have this ability.

Well, it's not easy to put it to use (ie read lips). I dont suppose in a dnd world many important conversations take place behind soundproof glass. I am guessing you could get some more mileage out of it if you combine it with true seeing or similar abilities, like the ghostly gaze invocation for example. Maybe with scrying too, for a visual effect while also catching as much as you can out of the conversation; probably not very practical though. Otherwise it might be useful if the DM remembers that you have it so that maybe he can allow you a check every now and then (eg you are a guest in the red wedding and you spot the musicians on the balkony discussing something, might as well try to read their lips if you are curious enough, and who knows what you "hear" them saying!). The best I've made out of this is to learn the quest that an NPC adventuring party was discussing in a tavern, so that my party got to do it before them and claim the reward. It's mostly a roleplaying thing for me, have my character enter a crowded area and use it to get a sense of who is who. Though in the right circumstances or if you build enough around it it might have some better uses than that.

I have never run a full/heavy Warlock, would this hurt my character being more the face of the party and the skill monkey?

You'll miss the second set of expertise and later on reliable talent. If you end up going this way (ie more warlock levels) and you find yourself relying on ability checks a lot, you could pick the lucky feat or skill expert to make up for some of this, and also use some spells to replicate checks when possible (eg spider climb/ fly instead of athletics for climbing, some teleportation for escaping grapples instead of athletics/acrobatics, etc).

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One thing to be mindful of. Be careful not to neglect your combat ability more than your style of campaign allows. Multiclassing is an easy way to spread your character thin if you are entering it somewhat undecided.

If you lean towards a mostly warlock build for example, dont aim for something like rogue 5/ warlock 5. Instead start getting warlock levels. Your spell progression might be delayed but there's hardly any reason to delay it even further. Also make sure you'll build for a strong at will attack, so this means either EB or pact blade, each followed up by the relevant invocations. If you can add some tanking capability on top of dpr, healing and whatever else (eg control, debuffs, buffs your spells will be granting you even bettter, though at least try to become good at the aforementioned things by advancing in warlock.

If you lean towards rogue, well, there are good enough reasons for not necessarily sticking to just a few warlock levels, but pay mind to your progression and to your picks so that you can still be good at combat. Arcane tricksters can be good at more things than just dealing damage, though if you dont find ways to double on your sneak attack, the rogue's dpr is barely what it should be for a character that can tank, buff, debuff and control as your average arcane trickster (who needs several levels of progression to become decent at these roles in the first place anyway). By which I mean, if you are aiming for a heavy rogue build, then the levels you are taking outside of rogue should give you something that justifies in terms of combat role efficiency the detour. Or at the very least it should be some very important utility, either for optimization or for the enjoyment of the character.

[solidork]

BoAS sounds fun - is it mostly ritual spells that can be used in it? I would love to put FF in there and free up a spell slot if possible.

Just saw this question. Yes, Book of Ancient Secrets is for ritual spells. If you ever get some downtime and have the arcana proficiency, you can use the downtime rules in Xanathar's Guide to everything to scribe a Find Familiar scroll and then copy it into your ritual book once you get Book of Ancient Secrets. It only takes a day to make the scroll, so its not too difficult to fit it in. If you do go with BoaS I'd likely take Comprehend Languages and Speak With Animals as the rituals, do further enhance your already formidable investigative abilities with Eldritch Sight and Observant.

My picks for cantrips to take with Pact of the Tome would be: Guidance, Message and Control Flames or Mold Earth. One of my favorite tricks on my Fighter/Warlock was to use invisibility to scout a place out - then if I find someone I want to talk to (like some captured prisoners, or someone that seems potentially friendly) hide somewhere nearby and then have a clandestine conversation with them with Message. You just have to generally know where they are and be near enough, not have direct line of sight.

Guidance is just sort of generally amazing, but it can be annoying to use. I didn't take it on my Fighter/Warlock because I had just finished playing a Cleric and had been doing the Guidance thing for a while and wanted to branch out.

Control Flames lets you put out torches at range without making any noise (somatic only), which is useful for someone who sneaks around. The light enhancing effect is also pretty strong.

Mold Earth is great for when you want to bury something, typically bodies. It bothers me personally when we uncover someone who has died in the wilderness and we just kind of leave them out there to rot; also, sometimes you kill people and want to hide the evidence, or dig up evidence someone else has buried. In my last session, we had reason to look up how long it takes to dig a proper grave and it takes multiple hours even with more than one person. Mold Earth lets you do it in a couple of actions.

You can also dig a hole and then jump down in it to get total cover to be untargetable by things - as a Rogue you can hide as a bonus action, so it's not quite as useful as it could be. I like it because it lets you get tactical about terrain in a way that is pretty rare for 5e.

Another comment on the Rogue/Warlock level split: as far as I'm concerned, the most unique/class defining thing about Rogue at mid/high level is Reliable Talent. With it, you become incredibly competent at a huge variety of things in a way that very few other things can replicate. Magical Ambush is another very iconic and powerful feature I'd consider a valid Rogue "capstone" - a good place to switch to taking levels in Warlock instead.