Arms of the Astral Self and features that affect Wis checks

[x3n0n]

Way of the Astral Self Monks get this ability while their Arms of the Astral Self are summoned:

You can use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Strength checks and Strength saving throws.

The typical way I see this used is for the Str(Athletics) checks associated with shoving and grappling, which is clearly RAW and RAI.

In addition, I've seen a number of build concepts that use features that affect Wisdom checks and expect them to extend to Strength checks when combined with the above. For example:

• Circle of the Stars Druid, Starry Form, Dragon: "When you make [...] a Wisdom check [...], you can treat a roll of 9 or lower on the d20 as a 10."
• Wildhunt Shifter: "While shifted, you have advantage on Wisdom checks[.]"

It's not obvious to me that the wording of Arms of the Astral Self "turns a Strength check into a Wisdom check", which is what would be required for these features to apply. (That is, I think there's an argument that a shove is still a Strength check, not a Wisdom check--you just get to use your Wisdom for the modifier.)
I think I'd allow it as a DM based on the rule of cool and on my perception that it's not above the power curve, but I'm curious to see whether others think that this is a slam dunk and they obviously apply.

Thoughts?

[Unoriginal]

Way of the Astral Self Monks get this ability while their Arms of the Astral Self are summoned:

The typical way I see this used is for the Str(Athletics) checks associated with shoving and grappling, which is clearly RAW and RAI.

In addition, I've seen a number of build concepts that use features that affect Wisdom checks and expect them to extend to Strength checks when combined with the above. For example:

• Circle of the Stars Druid, Starry Form, Dragon: "When you make [...] a Wisdom check [...], you can treat a roll of 9 or lower on the d20 as a 10."
• Wildhunt Shifter: "While shifted, you have advantage on Wisdom checks[.]"

It's not obvious to me that the wording of Arms of the Astral Self "turns a Strength check into a Wisdom check", which is what would be required for these features to apply. (That is, I think there's an argument that a shove is still a Strength check, not a Wisdom check--you just get to use your Wisdom for the modifier.)
I think I'd allow it as a DM based on the rule of cool and on my perception that it's not above the power curve, but I'm curious to see whether others think that this is a slam dunk and they obviously apply.

Thoughts?

Technically, the wording "You can use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Strength checks and Strength saving throws" means that you are still doing STR checks and saving throws, just using the WIS mod.

Therefore, it'd be the other way around: Arms of the Astral Self applies to all features influencing STR and saving throws, even if the WIS mod is the one used.

[Dr.Samurai]

It seems the modifiers are getting swapped out, as opposed to the scores. If it said "wisdom in place of strength" I'd argue you're making wisdom checks instead of strength checks. But I agree with Unoriginal that it appears to still be a Strength check that uses your wisdom modifier instead.

The spelljammer US has Giff that get Advantage on all strength checks and saving throws. So you could do a giff astral self monk and go wisdom, but still get that advantage on those checks as well.

[Segev]

Technically, the wording "You can use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Strength checks and Strength saving throws" means that you are still doing STR checks and saving throws, just using the WIS mod.

Therefore, it'd be the other way around: Arms of the Astral Self applies to all features influencing STR and saving throws, even if the WIS mod is the one used.

This is the technically-correct RAW. It also is very likely the exact RAI.

[Burley]

Technically, the wording "You can use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Strength checks and Strength saving throws" means that you are still doing STR checks and saving throws, just using the WIS mod.

Therefore, it'd be the other way around: Arms of the Astral Self applies to all features influencing STR and saving throws, even if the WIS mod is the one used.

Wait wait wait. The ability doesn't say "Strength-based skill checks." It says "Strength checks and Strength saving throws."

So, RAW, there are exactly two checks that use Wis instead of Str: Strength checks and Strength saving throws. But, since you're proficient in Str saves (but not Wis), you'd use Wisdom + Proficiency for Str saves.

[Segev]

Wait wait wait. The ability doesn't say "Strength-based skill checks." It says "Strength checks and Strength saving throws."

So, RAW, there are exactly two checks that use Wis instead of Str: Strength checks and Strength saving throws. But, since you're proficient in Str saves (but not Wis), you'd use Wisdom + Proficiency for Str saves.

I...don't think you're disagreeing with him.

[x3n0n]

Ok, if I'm reading this right, the consensus is that Astral Self + Starry Form(Dragon)'s "take 10" and Astral Self + Wildhunt Shifter's advantage do not apply to the Athletics contests associated with shoving and grappling.

Any dissenters?

[strangebloke]

Ok, if I'm reading this right, the consensus is that Astral Self + Starry Form(Dragon)'s "take 10" and Astral Self + Wildhunt Shifter's advantage do not apply to the Athletics contests associated with shoving and grappling.

Any dissenters?

I mean devils advocate, but ability checks are defined as belonging to one ability or another because that's the ability used for them. An ability check that uses WIS and only WIS is a WIS ability check, definitionally.

Either way, I think its fine to assume in discussion that any DM would allow this, either because its so obscure or because it just doesn't matter.

[Segev]

Ok, if I'm reading this right, the consensus is that Astral Self + Starry Form(Dragon)'s "take 10" and Astral Self + Wildhunt Shifter's advantage do not apply to the Athletics contests associated with shoving and grappling.

Any dissenters?

By the RAW, no. And since these are both significant synergies if they are ruled to work, they're definitely something you should talk to your DM about in deciding if it should be allowed for his game or not.

I mean devils advocate, but ability checks are defined as belonging to one ability or another because that's the ability used for them. An ability check that uses WIS and only WIS is a WIS ability check, definitionally.

Either way, I think its fine to assume in discussion that any DM would allow this, either because its so obscure or because it just doesn't matter.

I do not think it's fine to assume a DM would allow this; these are potent synergies and while your reasoning is good in examining rough intent, the actual text doesn't back this up. The text does explicitly state that these are Strength checks that use the Wisdom modifier instead of the Strength modifier.

The druid feature may well be easy to justify - the power of the stars enhances your astral form, or something - but the Wildhunt Shifter, if we look beneath the mechanics, is getting enhanced senses. Enhanced senses are best represetned by benefits to Wisdom checks, but that doesn't mean that your astral self's arms are now stronger because you hear better. The Wildhunt Shifter is not more in tune with his ki or anything due to shapeshifting.

Now, that's my interpretation. Fluff is inevitably there to be molded to suit your story and character. Mechanically, by the RAW, this doesn't synergize because they're still Strength checks. But for the most part, it is well within the gray area that rulings, not rules applies to, so talk to your DM about his specific game and your specific character.

[Burley]

I mean devils advocate, but ability checks are defined as belonging to one ability or another because that's the ability used for them. An ability check that uses WIS and only WIS is a WIS ability check, definitionally.

Either way, I think its fine to assume in discussion that any DM would allow this, either because its so obscure or because it just doesn't matter.

If I am not trained in Perception, I would still be making Perception checks, even in WIS is the only used modifier. I'm not making Wisdom checks.

So, I can't use Wisdom for Athletics, because an Athletics check isn't the same as a Strength check.

My own infernal advocacy would be: Athletics is the only Str skill, so, like, why split hairs over one skill. The hair exists, so, I'mma split it, but it don't think it would be game breaking to use Wisdom in place of Strength.


Any benefits afforded to Wisdom checks wouldn't apply at all, because you're still making a Strength check, just with a different modifier. As said before, a shifter's heightened senses isn't going to help it lift a portcullis, Astral Arms or no.

[Segev]

If I am not trained in Perception, I would still be making Perception checks, even in WIS is the only used modifier. I'm not making Wisdom checks.

Incorrect, actually. In 5e, you do not make "perception" checks, not technically, under the RAW. You make Wisdom (perception) checks. That is, Wisdom checks where proficiency bonus may be added if you are proficient in perception.

[strangebloke]

I do not think it's fine to assume a DM would allow this; these are potent synergies and while your reasoning is good in examining rough intent, the actual text doesn't back this up. The text does explicitly state that these are Strength checks that use the Wisdom modifier instead of the Strength modifier.

Astral monk grappler druids/shifters are not a balance concern and I find the assertion they could be to be ridiculous. These aren't potent synergies. Taken together they're not much better than skill focus. This is like the argument over whether AM's can grapple with reach (they can't by RAW). Just because a martial is doing something kind of neat doesn't mean its overpowered.

But I also think RAW is less clear here. "A str check at uses wis" is kind of nonsense given how these terms are defined by which ability score you're using and fails a basic common sense reading. You can't be proficient in STR checks and the term doesn't have definition outside of the fact that such checks rely on strength. If there was an ability that said "you use dex for your str-based attack rolls" people would be slower to argue that the attack roll base on dex is still str-based, I think.

Heck, you could even argue that even though its still a str check, its also still a wis check, because its a check that uses wis.

Saving throws are a bit different, since a saving throw is something you can be proficient in and something that has definition. Though again, I'm not sure.

The druid feature may well be easy to justify - the power of the stars enhances your astral form, or something - but the Wildhunt Shifter, if we look beneath the mechanics, is getting enhanced senses. Enhanced senses are best represetned by benefits to Wisdom checks, but that doesn't mean that your astral self's arms are now stronger because you hear better. The Wildhunt Shifter is not more in tune with his ki or anything due to shapeshifting.

Heightened senses -> Heightened state of awareness -> becoming more in tune with your heightened state of being.

Or, more directly, its moon magic and you're a lycanthrope.

I would argue that bull's strength giving you a bonus to grappling with arms that aren't part of your physical body is way more tenuous.

[Unoriginal]

Wait wait wait. The ability doesn't say "Strength-based skill checks." It says "Strength checks and Strength saving throws."

So, RAW, there are exactly two checks that use Wis instead of Str: Strength checks and Strength saving throws. But, since you're proficient in Str saves (but not Wis), you'd use Wisdom + Proficiency for Str saves.

There isno skill checks in 5e. All checks are ability checks + relevant proficiency.

An Astral Self Monk can use their WIS mod for STR checks even if the proficiency used is Carpenter's Tools or Water Vehicles.

[Burley]

It seems I've had a fundamental misunderstanding of skills in 5e. I'll... I'll go now.


~cue Charlie Brown music~

~turns head quickly~ Huh, what's that? Oh, you weren't talking to... Ok.

[Segev]

It seems I've had a fundamental misunderstanding of skills in 5e. I'll... I'll go now.


~cue Charlie Brown music~

~turns head quickly~ Huh, what's that? Oh, you weren't talking to... Ok.

Many people share that fundamental misunderstanding, because it's a different take on it than in 3.PF or 4e. No need to feel bad; be excited to learn how they do work!

[Dr.Samurai]

It seems I've had a fundamental misunderstanding of skills in 5e. I'll... I'll go now.


~cue Charlie Brown music~

~turns head quickly~ Huh, what's that? Oh, you weren't talking to... Ok.

This made me chuckle, thank you

[Chronos]

Ordinarily, strength checks are defined as checks using your strength mod. But I think that this works as an exception to that general rule, and so an astral monk does make strength checks using their wisdom mod. Weird? Sure. But that's what the feature does, as written.

Oh, and another wrinkle of the way that 5e does skills: You add your proficiency mod if you have any relevant proficiency, and there might be multiple proficiencies that could be relevant. For instance, if the party meets someone who they think is drunk, the DM could say "Make a Wis check to determine whether they're drunk." The fighter might then say "Can I add my proficiency in brewers' tools?", the cleric might say "Can I add my proficiency in Medicine?", and the bard might say "Can I add my proficiency in Insight?", and the DM could say yes to all three.