Bladesinger ranged weapon build

[Quoz]

Getting back into D&D after a long break and looking to make some fun and effective builds. Bladesinger has always caught my eye but I've never taken the chance to play one. The group I'm joining is at 6th level, just when a lot of interesting and build defining features open up.

This looks like it would work at my first read, but I'm a bit rusty and wanted a second opinion. I want to make a bladesinger with crossbow expertise as my first feat. I want to be able to use hand crossbow, nets, and ranged cantrips in while keeping a rapier or short sword for green flame blade or other melee attacks as necessary.

I know wielding 2 weapons will cause some problems with hands and spellcasting focuses/components. Aside from that, is there a reason not to be double tapping with a crossbow while blasting cantrips?

Does Bladesinger's unique extra attack get around the special quality on a net? My first read would be that using a net would prevent you from using any attack roll cantrips, but what about ones that force a saving throw or give a buff like blade ward or true strike?

[meandean]

I don't see anything in the wording of either the net or the Bladesinger Extra Attack to suggest it would matter what type of cantrip you would be attempting. As I read it, using a net precludes Extra Attack, which in turn precludes you from replacing said extra attack with a cantrip.

So, just get three attacks (or attack/cantrip combos) with your hand crossbow plus Crossbow Expert. You won't have anything in your other hand, so if you have to switch to melee, that's not a problem. Once both your hands are occupied, you then won't be able to cast spells without dropping something, but that's not a big deal.

Bladesinger is associated with melee, because it's boosting your AC and concentration, and those boosts are wasted if you're not targeted. But, of course, there will be times – perhaps often, if you're good at your job! – when you're targeted even if you're not in melee. It's not the ultimate min/max (starting with the fact that you're a Wizard taking a non-spellcasting feat in the first place), but it'll play fine and sounds like it'll be fun for you.

[Jervis]

I made a build for this once. You don’t keep with with Shadow Blade DPR but it’s pretty good, especially since you aren’t eating your concentration to use a melee attack spell. I use Githyanki but most of the elves also work since they both have a floating weapon proficiency that fixes the whole problem of not being proficient in crossbows. Take CBE at 4. Use it with Toll the Dead. You don’t need another weapon to trigger CBE, a hand crossbow qualifies itself. As for nets there’s no real synergy here, Bladesinger extra attack is extra attack and you can’t really get any combos there.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I've thought this was a great idea. I don't believe RAW you have the option for proficiency in the hand Xbow though. Bladesinger specifies proficiency in a melee weapon of your choice. You probably need to talk to your DM who could OK it, or take a level of Fighter (which isn't so bad anyway given the other benefits).

[Chaos Jackal]

I've thought this was a great idea. I don't believe RAW you have the option for proficiency in the hand Xbow though. Bladesinger specifies proficiency in a melee weapon of your choice. You probably need to talk to your DM who could OK it, or take a level of Fighter (which isn't so bad anyway given the other benefits).

You don't, but it's pretty easy to grab it through race, including, unsurprisingly, the traditional elf choices; drow get it by default, and if TCE rules are in play you've got a lot more options in that regard.

[Khrysaes]

Ok. So i looked at some options here.

1. At 6th level bladesinger you can wield a hand crossbow in one hand and use your other for arcane focus and somatic components.

According to the phb
“
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.”

So if you need to melee, you can drop
Your hxbow and use your free object interaction to unsheath your one handed melee weapon.

2. Wizards dont get proficiency in hand crossbows, but you can pick it up through race or multiclassing. Many races post tashas can het it. I like shadarkai in MMotM.

3. You can also be vhuman or custom lineage and take warcaster, which would allow you to make somatic components with the weapon wielding hand.

HOWEVER, you still need your material compoments or focus in the other.


Now, know it puts you a level behind, but consider 1st level as an articifer.
It gets you proficiency in con saves.
You can also get the all purpose tool, which allows you to select one cantrip from any list and cast it as an artificer spell for up to 8 hours a day, per all purpose tool. Artificer spells are intelligence based, so This would allow you to get an int based eldritch blast and/or an int based shillelagh, if you should so desire. 1 artificer also nets guidance and cure wounds as spell options, which can be nice.

But a real kicker is 2 artificer.

In Artificer spellcasting, it says
“ After you gain the Infuse Item feature at 2nd level, you can also use any item bearing one of your infusions as a spellcasting focus.”

Notably, this does not specify artificer spells. In contrast, a warlock’s improved pact weapon or a swords bard,
‘
Improved Pact Weapon
Prerequisite: Pact of the Blade feature

You can use any weapon you summon with your Pact of the Blade feature as a spellcasting focus for your warlock spells.’
“
If you’re proficient with a simple or martial melee weapon, you can use it as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.“

So if i read it right, at 2 artificer you can use the repeating shot infusion on a hand crossbow, which means you can use it as a spell casting focus for both wizard and artificer spells. You can make somatic components in the same hand as you have your spellcasting focus, now your hand crossbow. Meaning your material and somatic components are covered with one hand, wielding the hand crossbow, meaning you can yse the other hand for a melee weapon if you so desire.

So 2 artificer would net you a few more spells, not on the wizard list. Proficiency in con saves. The opportunity to have an intelligence based eldritch blast, should you so desire,and a +1 handcrossbow with infinite ammo that you can use as a spellcasting focus.

If you took 3 artificer, battlesmith could give
You proficiency in martial weapons (hand crossbow) and let you use intelligence to attack with them.

Theoretically, assuming proficiency, material and somatic components are covered by other sources, a 1 artificer/6+ wizard can attack with hand crossbow, bladesinger extra attack to cast eldritch blast cantrip gained from all purpose tools, then bonus action attack with their crossbow. I think that is the same number of attacks a level 7 eldritch knight can use, but you have full spell casting.


LASTLY 1 artificer gives you proficiency in firearms if they exist in the world. Canonically, firearms exist in faerun and are present on creatures in both waterdeep dragonheist (drow gunner, poisoned hand pistol) and icewind dale (gnome ceremorph, laser pistol). Firearms dont count for the bonus action attack from xbow expert, but it can be a fun replacement for the weapon.

[Eldariel]

I did a write-up on a switch-hitter BS here. Basically the idea is to abuse Longbow and ranged buffs plus Minor Illusion/Mold Earth for very versatile and potent long range attack prowess (becoming an incredibly hard-to-reach kiter with Haste if you so choose); you have Sharpshooter so your range is 600' no problem. Then at shorter ranges you have the option of Bow + Cantrip (probably pretty decent on Tier 3+) or casting e.g. Shadow Blade and going melee. It's not a pure ranged build but it's a very solid ranged build (you have a good shot at 1v1ing a Pit Fiend at range on level 13, which is pretty nice) that can also melee and cast as desired.

The investment into range is basically just one feat: Sharpshooter. Elven Accuracy is equally good in melee and at range (potentially even better at melee thanks to Shadow Blade) and Half-Elf or Elf is a solid range regardless of the weapon proficiencies. This is one of the cheapest ways to make a ranged Bladesinger and it gives you something you might otherwise lack: a good way to affect enemies at beyond 150' range.

[Khrysaes]

I did a write-up on a switch-hitter BS here. Basically the idea is to abuse Longbow and ranged buffs plus Minor Illusion/Mold Earth for very versatile and potent long range attack prowess (becoming an incredibly hard-to-reach kiter with Haste if you so choose); you have Sharpshooter so your range is 600' no problem. Then at shorter ranges you have the option of Bow + Cantrip (probably pretty decent on Tier 3+) or casting e.g. Shadow Blade and going melee. It's not a pure ranged build but it's a very solid ranged build (you have a good shot at 1v1ing a Pit Fiend at range on level 13, which is pretty nice) that can also melee and cast as desired.

The investment into range is basically just one feat: Sharpshooter. Elven Accuracy is equally good in melee and at range (potentially even better at melee thanks to Shadow Blade) and Half-Elf or Elf is a solid range regardless of the weapon proficiencies. This is one of the cheapest ways to make a ranged Bladesinger and it gives you something you might otherwise lack: a good way to affect enemies at beyond 150' range.

I think by raw, since longbows use two hands you cant bladesing and use one simultaneously.

[Eldariel]

I think by raw, since longbows use two hands you cant bladesing and use one simultaneously.

Well, that doesn't really matter. If you're fighting at 150'+ you usually don't expect to take much return fire meaning you don't need Bladesong. And if need be, you can use it, it just ends when you attack with a Longbow. Therefore, when you're in those rare situations where you might need to Bladesing while fighting at extreme range, your attack sequence should look something like this:
Turn 1. [Cast your buff], attack, start bladesong.
Turn 2. Attack ending Bladesong; if you need it, start it again.

Rince and repeat. This way you'll have Bladesong for all but the moment you attack, giving you probably sufficiently comprehensive protection. This burns a BS use per round though; but you only need to restart it if even after your attack you still need it. Given how long encounters usually are, you can probably afford this in the cases where it matters. Especially since a long range Bladesinger doesn't actually need to use Bladesong all that often compared to melee Bladesingers, so you'll have uses saved up in many cases where a more up-and-personal Bladesinger might not.

If you want to attack at range while fighting at like 60'-120', you need Hand Crossbow and you could add Crossbow Expert, but I generally don't consider that worth enough over just e.g. Hand Crossbow + Cantrip (which is why you should definitely pick Hand Crossbow proficiency alongside Longbow with your racial weapon proficiencies - the other two don't really matter though you might as well pick Whip and Short Sword to go with your rapier to add some options to short range combat; Heavy Crossbow's 1d10 over Longbow's 1d8 is probably not worth spending a proficiency on). Thanks to Sharpshooter you can attack at 120' with Hand Crossbow and even get the -5/+10 is accessible especially if you can e.g. use familiar for advantage (triple advantage with Elven Accuracy)

[Chaos Jackal]

I think by raw, since longbows use two hands you cant bladesing and use one simultaneously.

You can't, but the Bladesong is irrelevant to your offensive capability until lv14, and that write-up is meant to be for a switch-hitter. Bladesong is only mentioned in relation to melee; at range it's less useful anyway, particularly if you can fully exploit SS.

Edit: swordsage'd

[diplomancer]

I'm not sure about that Long Bow build. Sure, being able to be 150' from the battle is good, but there are distinct disadvantages:
1- at least in my experience, most battlemaps don't go that far. Even if they did, I'd be uncomfortable being that far away from the rest of the party, specially as a wizard. You never know where new enemies will come from.
2- you lose one of your most important abilities, Counterspell. Sure, you won't need it every combat. But you are going to kick yourself the moment you needed it and couldn't use it because you were too far away to do it.

[Eldariel]

I'm not sure about that Long Bow build. Sure, being able to be 150' from the battle is good, but there are distinct disadvantages:
1- at least in my experience, most battlemaps don't go that far. Even if they did, I'd be uncomfortable being that far away from the rest of the party, specially as a wizard. You never know where new enemies will come from.
2- you lose one of your most important abilities, Counterspell. Sure, you won't need it every combat. But you are going to kick yourself the moment you needed it and couldn't use it because you were too far away to do it.

You can go melee just as every other BS. You just have the option to not to. But yes, if your DM only runs dungeons with short distances, obviously little value in ranged builds in general.

If you want range though, this is pretty good.

[diplomancer]

You can go melee just as every other BS. You just have the option to not to. But yes, if your DM only runs dungeons with short distances, obviously little value in ranged builds in general.

If you want range though, this is pretty good.

Yes, you can go melee, but you've invested a Feat (not a small investment) and in the worst case scenario you're far from the party. But if your DM only has enemies appearing from expected directions that's not a big issue.

And there's still the Counterspelling problem. Big damage is not the Wizard's job, though it's of course nice if he can do it; Counterspelling is.

[Eldariel]

Yes, you can go melee, but you've invested a Feat (not a small investment) and in the worst case scenario you're far from the party. But if your DM only has enemies appearing from expected directions that's not a big issue.

And there's still the Counterspelling problem. Big damage is not the Wizard's job, though it's of course nice if he can do it; Counterspelling is.

Wizard's job is whatever he wants it to be. It can be damage, CC, restoration, tanking, or all of the above. That's just an intrinsic part of being a Wizard.

If you're going ranged BS, your primary job is not Counterspelling. Though when you need the option, it's there: there is value in being able to engage a kiting Dragon or Pit Fiend or whatever at extreme range while still being able to close in and damage + Counterspell vs. the Lich and CC + Counterspell vs. Mages. Pick the role appropriate to the circumstances, don't lock yourself to any particular line.

That's why it's called a switch-hitter; it does both admirably. Yes, you have one ASI less than full melee Bladesinger while meleeing but you are still a Wizard so compared to other classes, you are still extremely strong.

[diplomancer]

Wizard's job is whatever he wants it to be. It can be damage, CC, restoration, tanking, or all of the above. That's just an intrinsic part of being a Wizard.

If you're going ranged BS, your primary job is not Counterspelling. Though when you need the option, it's there: there is value in being able to engage a kiting Dragon or Pit Fiend or whatever at extreme range while still being able to close in and damage + Counterspell vs. the Lich and CC + Counterspell vs. Mages. Pick the role appropriate to the circumstances, don't lock yourself to any particular line.

That's why it's called a switch-hitter; it does both admirably. Yes, you have one ASI less than full melee Bladesinger while meleeing but you are still a Wizard so compared to other classes, you are still extremely strong.

If you're 150' away when combat starts, you have to dash for two rounds to get to Counterspelling distance (I.e, by the time you do it, the enemy spellcaster has already cast his big gun spell). Anyway, I wouldn't play this build, unless it's something like an all-wizard party where others can take the counterspelling slack (but then if I'm the bladesinger shouldn't I be more on the frontlines?), more power to you if you have fun playing it.

Also worth mentioning here that the investment is not only a feat, it's a feat and a race (or a feat and a dip).

[Eldariel]

If you're 150' away when combat starts, you have to dash for two rounds to get to Counterspelling distance (I.e, by the time you do it, the enemy spellcaster has already cast his big gun spell). Anyway, I wouldn't play this build, more power to you if you have fun playing it.

Also worth mentioning here that the investment is not only a feat, it's a feat and a race (or a feat and a dip).

Yeah, but the race would be good even without the weapon profs: various Elves and Half-Elves are high tier Wizard races anyways. So the cost of picking it up is minimal.

You should not obviously just play 150' back at all times, nor can you. See an enemy that doesn't see you? Shoot at them from 400' away. Your party can be with you and DM can just speedrun the encounter if the enemy can't fight back; they try to approach, you get a couple of rounds of free hits. You can also Haste and kite a Dragon into oblivion in the open, moving 120' a turn while still attacking (or more with Longstrider). If the situation allows for it, you can also just position yourself safely. It's all extra options you can use fluidly rather than just one tactic you try to force in every eventuality.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

If you're 150' away when combat starts, you have to dash for two rounds to get to Counterspelling distance (I.e, by the time you do it, the enemy spellcaster has already cast his big gun spell). Anyway, I wouldn't play this build, unless it's something like an all-wizard party where others can take the counterspelling slack (but then if I'm the bladesinger shouldn't I be more on the frontlines?), more power to you if you have fun playing it.

Also worth mentioning here that the investment is not only a feat, it's a feat and a race (or a feat and a dip).

To me this build is a lot closer to a regular wizard and doesn't require you to adjust your play. Basically you're a wizard with juiced resourceless damage. No need to get in close and risk harm.

[JackalTornMoons]

A really good "looks good on paper" build is a 2 hex/x Bladesinger.

Agonizing Blast / Devil's Sight

CBE

Cast Darkness and HBC! Eldritch Blast followed up by 2x CBE attacks all at advantage! (Could even grab Elven Accuracy!)

It's pretty finicky trying to figure out your leveling up order/stats/race but it's fun to think about.

[kazaryu]

Getting back into D&D after a long break and looking to make some fun and effective builds. Bladesinger has always caught my eye but I've never taken the chance to play one. The group I'm joining is at 6th level, just when a lot of interesting and build defining features open up.

This looks like it would work at my first read, but I'm a bit rusty and wanted a second opinion. I want to make a bladesinger with crossbow expertise as my first feat. I want to be able to use hand crossbow, nets, and ranged cantrips in while keeping a rapier or short sword for green flame blade or other melee attacks as necessary.

I know wielding 2 weapons will cause some problems with hands and spellcasting focuses/components. Aside from that, is there a reason not to be double tapping with a crossbow while blasting cantrips?

well...you can't duel wield crossbows. in fact, even for a hand crossbow, you need a hand free to reload. XBE allows you to ignore the loading quality, not the ammunition quality. but so long as you use a spell components pouch instead of a spell casting focus, there should be no real problems. you have a hand free when you want to cast an M spell. and you have a hand free to reload your xbow. as others have mentioned you *could* go artificer 2...but its entirely unnecesary to make the build work. as others have noted the only real limitation is you need to make sure you get hand xbow proficiency from somewhere, but thats not hugely limiting.

for consideration: you could even go rogue 1 (and possibly a bit higher) to get the proficiency. it gets you a bit of extra damage, and expertise. and better skills. if, eventually, you want to put more cunning action is great for repositioning if it comes down to it, and several of the archetypes could be real nice depending on what you're going for. Its probably not optimal, but its also not an absolutely terrible option.

edit: just found one, minor, limitation. at 14th level, the bonus to damage you get only apply to melee attacks. so...thats a thing if you expect to reach that level.