OOTS #1258 - The Discussion Thread

[Liquor Box]

I think the level of desire for retribution against Serini speaks to how harshly she's been judged.

In the discussions of her hitting Durkon, I don't think anyone has expressed the desire for retribution. Although there have been a whole lot of posts on the topic, I don't think anyone has said anything especially harsh about it - just that it wasn't warranted or endearing.

I don't think any of that is as relevant to this as just the simple trope at play I recognize easily. "Old wise mentor who carries a stick and bonks young protégés on the head when they say something foolish" is a reasonably common trope, or at least enough so that I'm not the only one here to recognize it.

But this doesn't match that trope. Serini is old, although it doubtful she's been protrayed as wise. but she clearly isn't Durkon or Lien's mentor - she was Lien's captor and Durkon's uneasy ally.

[Squire Doodad]

But this doesn't match that trope. Serini is old, although it doubtful she's been protrayed as wise. but she clearly isn't Durkon or Lien's mentor - she was Lien's captor and Durkon's uneasy ally.

She's old, has a stick, and the Order is younger than her. Close enough, really.

[Liquor Box]

She's old, has a stick, and the Order is younger than her. Close enough, really.

So you'd feel the same way if it were Tarquin hitting Hayley?

[mjasghar]

V and Durkon may be older than her

[Liquor Box]

V and Durkon may be older than her

V (131) is and Durkon (about 55) isn't. But I think those saying that old people are allowed to act this way would say that her being further along the lifespan of her race means that she still fill the criteria.

[dancrilis]

I don't know that this is right. Following the discussion of 1256, I don't think Serini still wishes the Order were far away, instead she now realises some direct action is necessary to stop Xykon and knows that she'd have little chance without the Order. She is now in basically the same position as the Order - in a reluctant alliance. She may still think that she is in some way superior, but I don't think that is justified, or that the Order share that view.

In 1256 she decides she needs to take the gods into account - but she doesn't seem to think that the Order actually matter all that much to that other then the information they brought.
She might have moved from:
a) Xykon eventually gets the Gate and that is terrible but acceptable
to
b) Xykon cannot be allowed to get the Gate

But she still doesn't think that the Order really matter against Xykon she is going to allow them a shot at it in case she is wrong but I suspect she is really trying to figure out how she can better protect the Gate after they are all murdered and if they just decided to walk away and let her handle it she would likely be perfectly fine with that.

Of course I might be reading it wrong and it can be read a number of different ways.

So you'd feel the same way if it were Tarquin hitting Hayley?

I think a lot of it depends on context but to an extent - yes.

For instance here Tarquin defenestrates Haley - he is fully justified in doing so as he can determine that they are escaping criminals (even without the further knowledge that we know he had have).

Seperately Roy here threatens to physically harm Belkar due to Belkar's behaviour, here he does hit Belkar in the face with a stick (seemingly doing damage) while Belkar was trying to help him with his plan (and seemingly doing no damage) and here he threatens to hit Belkar with the stick again solely because Belkar is being annoying.

[Liquor Box]

In 1256 she decides she needs to take the gods into account - but she doesn't seem to think that the Order actually matter all that much to that other then the information they brought.
She might have moved from:
a) Xykon eventually gets the Gate and that is terrible but acceptable
to
b) Xykon cannot be allowed to get the Gate

But she still doesn't think that the Order really matter against Xykon she is going to allow them a shot at it in case she is wrong but I suspect she is really trying to figure out how she can better protect the Gate after they are all murdered and if they just decided to walk away and let her handle it she would likely be perfectly fine with that.

Of course I might be reading it wrong and it can be read a number of different ways.

I suppose it's not clear, but i read it as her accepting that the best course of action for the outcome she wants is to ally with the Order (to rehash old arguments, I think that was always the case). If she still thought she was best without them, I wouldn't put past her to try and ambush them again. Prior to being persuaded by Belkar, she was still saying she would not reconsider her position about working with the order, which suggests it was her changed understanding about the situation that made her willing to work with them, not the fact that she has little choice.

I think a lot of it depends on context but to an extent - yes.

Let us say it was one of the following two sceanrios:
- He captured her, and was asking question about his own past, and she answered wrongly so he slapped her?
- While she was a guest she asked a question he thought stupid so he slapped her?

For instance here Tarquin defenestrates Haley - he is fully justified in doing so as he can determine that they are escaping criminals (even without the further knowledge that we know he had have).

Not sure that this is comparable for the reason you give. If he had thrown her out a window because she had asked a question he didn't like, or answered one he asked incorrectly it would sit differently.

It might still have been wrong to risk the life of escaping prisoners, but probably not in the context of a country where most prisoners are put in an arena to fight to the death.

Seperately Roy here threatens to physically harm Belkar due to Belkar's behaviour, here he does hit Belkar in the face with a stick (seemingly doing damage) while Belkar was trying to help him with his plan (and seemingly doing no damage) and here he threatens to hit Belkar with the stick again solely because Belkar is being annoying.

If anything that situation puts Belkar in the position of Serini, hitting Roy for little reason, Roy only retaliates. And the retaliation was justified IMO, just like it would be if they hit Serini back. Belkar (despite being my favourite character) deserved it. The context is a little more sympathetic than Serini's though because the two know each other well.

[JonahFalcon]

She's hitting people in the face with a staff, you don't have to be "invested" to see that in a negative light. I can't believe we're having an argument over this, of all things.

Can't wait for some people to attend a caustic drag queen show like Lady Bunny. The pearl clutching would be ENDLESS. (Heck, don't watch "Tom & Jerry" cartoons, either.)

So you'd feel the same way if it were Tarquin hitting Hayley?

Ever heard of the "tu quoque" logical fallacy, aka "appeal to hypocrisy"?

I'm in favor of Serini smacking everyone upside the head with her staff.

Because it's fiction.

And it's funny.

[Liquor Box]

Ever heard of the "tu quoque" logical fallacy, aka "appeal to hypocrisy"?

Yes. The idea is that noting that a person has previously committed the acts they are now condemning is not a good discussion technique. The underlying reason is that it presupposes that because the act has been done before it is not worthy of condemnation, which is fallacious because both might be worth of condemnation.

So very clearly different not what I am doing by asking whether people giving Serini a pass would also have given Tarquin a pass i the same circumstances. That question allows people to say both were fine, to try and draw some distinction between them, or to agree that both were poor conduct.

What would be closer to tu quoque would be to say "what Serini did was ok because Tom and Jerry did it too".

I'm in favor of Serini smacking everyone upside the head with her staff.

Because it's fiction.

And it's funny.

That's fair enough, and if others had only said that then we wouldn't have had this discussion. But people have gone beyond merely saying that it's fiction and funny, but saying that she is actually in the right.

Out of curiosity can I ask, would you also have been in favour if Tarquin had gone around slapping Durkon and Hayley if they'd said things he thought was wrong? Would it have been as funny?

[KorvinStarmast]

I can't believe I'm writing this, but old people and mentor figures harmlessly bonking others in the head in fiction is not an Evil act. Especially in a stick figure comedy where Haley can shoot an arrow through someone's foot for the sake of expediency and that's funny.

There is an entire class of people who don't get slapstick humor.

Durkon was burned to death by the same cleric who raised him just because he asked the wrong question.
Getting hit in the head with a stick for making another wrong question isn´t gonna faze anybody at this point.

He shoots, he scores!

making a mountain out of a molehill

Has been going on since someone got wound up by Serini bonking Lien and, as above, does not get slapstick humor.

I think people are a bit hypersensitive to Serini and have never met a real crotchety old person.

You summoned me? (Deep reference to Blizzard's Warcraft II wizards entering the order of battle).

She's hitting people in the face with a staff, you don't have to be "invested" to see that in a negative light. I can't believe we're having an argument over this, of all things.

Shemp Howard wept.

[Larsaan]

There is an entire class of people who don't get slapstick humor.
He shoots, he scores!
Has been going on since someone got wound up by Serini bonking Lien and, as above, does not get slapstick humor.
You summoned me? (Deep reference to Blizzard's Warcraft II wizards entering the order of battle).
Shemp Howard wept.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. When I say that I see Serini's behaviour in a negative light, I don't mean that I consider it unacceptable behaviour for a character in a comic to make. What I mean is that it makes her look like a jerk. And that's fine, jerks are an important part of both comedies and storytelling... but for some reason there's a handful of people here who are weirdly defensive about Serini, and insisting that hitting people with sticks is perfectly socially acceptable behaviour, actually.

Serini being a funny character is not the same as her being a flawless person. Hell, Belkar and Xykon are two of the funniest characters in this comic, but we can all agree that they're not people you'd want to be around.

[KorvinStarmast]

and insisting that hitting people with sticks is perfectly socially acceptable behaviour, actually.

That's the part where you are missing the point, and that's why Shemp is still weeping Crocodile tears. In part because you are contradicting yourself.

I don't mean that I consider it unacceptable behaviour for a character in a comic to make.

[Larsaan]

That's the part where you are missing the point, and that's why Shemp is still weeping Crocodile tears. In part because you are contradicting yourself.

Sorry, I think you're the one missing the point, so I'll try to make mine more clearly:

Being a good character is not synonymous with being a good person.

I am honestly not particularly bothered about Serini's behaviour within the context of the comic, or whether she ends up facing some kind of (probably quite mild) karma for it. It would be nice, inasmuch as that's what you expect to happen to a jerkass in a fictional story, but it's by no means a big deal. My annoyance is entirely aimed at the people on this forum who keep arguing that she isn't a jerk.

Is she as big of a jerk as Xykon? No. Is she as big of a jerk as Belkar? No. Is she as big of a jerk as Miko? No*. But she is 100% a jerk. This is not mutually exclusive with her being a good character.

*Although I do think they share a number of interesting parallels as characters.

[Aquillion]

So you'd feel the same way if it were Tarquin hitting Hayley?

He isn't sufficiently old or curmudgeonly for it to really make sense, tropewise.

But we did have her bonk Lien on the head not so long ago and as I recall nobody treated it as a noteworthy thing, so I'm wondering what's different this time.

I am honestly not particularly bothered about Serini's behaviour within the context of the comic, or whether she ends up facing some kind of (probably quite mild) karma for it. It would be nice, inasmuch as that's what you expect to happen to a jerkass in a fictional story, but it's by no means a big deal. My annoyance is entirely aimed at the people on this forum who keep arguing that she isn't a jerk.

I don't many people concerned with whether she is or isn't a jerk, honestly; and I'm not sure it's useful or helpful to try and categorically describe characters as jerks anyway. Like... this detailed list of which characters are worse or better than which other characters seems meaningless to me. People aren't like that and trying to dissect them that way isn't helpful.

But the fixation on bonking is weird either way, since she has done far worse things, so I'll definitely say that people are blowing it massively out of proportion given that the amount of discussion it's worth seems to me to be somewhere in the vicinity of zero.

[brian 333]

[QUOTE=Larsaan;25474565]
My annoyance is entirely aimed at the people on this forum who keep arguing that she isn't a jerk./QUOTE]

Not sure who's making that particular point. Serini is well established as on the jerk spectrum.

The idea that we should be outraged and offended by her particular brand of jerk has been argued in both directions, but there is only one side calling for real world application of her technique.

No, I would not like to be bonked on the head with a stick by a geriatric person. That degree of discomfort you feel in observing it happen is exactly what makes it funny. Like when that kid in the video does a back-flip off the trampoline and crashes into the garden shed, we laugh because we empathize, not because we endorse.

No one is suggesting real people should do these things in real life. Serini's acts should not be judged by that standard.

[ratfox]

Durkon would know all about the more traditional methods (possibly involving acid sharks) and the importance of not knowing the secret you're supposed to protect, as lampshaded here:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html

[Liquor Box]

He isn't sufficiently old or curmudgeonly for it to really make sense, tropewise.

But we did have her bonk Lien on the head not so long ago and as I recall nobody treated it as a noteworthy thing, so I'm wondering what's different this time.

It was raised, but there was much less pushback. I suspect that, because there was a lot going on at the time with Serini kidnapping the paladins and revealing her story, there was a lot to discuss so it didn't get much oxygen.

but there is only one side calling for real world application of her technique.

Didn't you, a couple of pages back:
- say that you wouldn't be bothered if someone did that to you;
- raise (for the first time) the question of whether it was criminal; and
- go on to narrate what you thought the police officer responding to an attack by an old lady might say?

[brian 333]

It was raised, but there was much less pushback. I suspect that, because there was a lot going on at the time with Serini kidnapping the paladins and revealing her story, there was a lot to discuss so it didn't get much oxygen.



Didn't you, a couple of pages back:
- say that you wouldn't be bothered if someone did that to you;
- raise (for the first time) the question of whether it was criminal; and
- go on to narrate what you thought the police officer responding to an attack by an old lady might say?

Jokes are sometimes funny. In the instance that someone doesn't get them, they become funnier.

There is zero humor that does not involve an uncomfortable situation for the victim, and all jokes, when deconstructed, refer to situations in which you would not want to be the subject. Let that sink in a minute.

Meanwhile, a shot to the jewels is funny precisely because we all can imagine it happening to us, and we're glad it didn't. If you don't find it funny it's because you have seen it before too many times, but I bet at some point in your life you laughed.

Now, go find me an example of humor where there was no awkward, embarrassing, or painful situation involved.

[Fyraltari]

Durkon would know all about the more traditional methods (possibly involving acid sharks) and the importance of not knowing the secret you're supposed to protect, as lampshaded here:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html

Did you mix up Durkon and O-Chul?

Jokes are sometimes funny. In the instance that someone doesn't get them, they become funnier.

There is zero humor that does not involve an uncomfortable situation for the victim, and all jokes, when deconstructed, refer to situations in which you would not want to be the subject. Let that sink in a minute.

Meanwhile, a shot to the jewels is funny precisely because we all can imagine it happening to us, and we're glad it didn't. If you don't find it funny it's because you have seen it before too many times, but I bet at some point in your life you laughed.

Now, go find me an example of humor where there was no awkward, embarrassing, or painful situation involved.

Puns.

[InvisibleBison]

Now, go find me an example of humor where there was no awkward, embarrassing, or painful situation involved.

A: Knock, knock!
B: Who's there?
A: Interrupting cow.
B: Interrupting c-
A: MOO!

[Peelee]

In the instance that someone doesn't get [jokes], they become funnier.

There is zero humor that does not involve an uncomfortable situation for the victim, and all jokes, when deconstructed, refer to situations in which you would not want to be the subject. Let that sink in a minute.

I think you may be ignoring vast areas of comedy that do not align with these claims.

[dancrilis]

Puns.

Theoritically puns can be awkward or embarrassing when someone doesn't get them they rely on language usage and ability to be common, and when either are not they can be awkward when language usage is not common or embarrassing when ability isn't.

A: Knock, knock!
B: Who's there?
A: Interrupting cow.
B: Interrupting c-
A: MOO!

The term 'cow' has been used as an insult to refer to humans on occassion and commonly the exact kindof people who might be deemed to be the kind to interrupt.

I think you may be ignoring vast areas of comedy that do not align with these claims.

Perhaps, but on a related (but different) point it is likely fairly difficult (perhaps impossible) to construct a joke where a determined person couldn't find some way to take offence from it - either on their own behalf or on behalf of a third party.

[Fyraltari]

Jokes are sometimes funny. In the instance that someone doesn't get them, they become funnier.

That is absolutely not my experience (people not getting the joke tend to bring the room down, not up)

Theoritically puns can be awkward or embarrassing when someone doesn't get them they rely on language usage and ability to be common, and when either are not they can be awkward when language usage is not common or embarrassing when ability isn't.



The term 'cow' has been used as an insult to refer to humans on occassion and commonly the exact kindof people who might be deemed to be the kind to interrupt.



Perhaps, but on a related (but different) point it is likely fairly difficult (perhaps impossible) to construct a joke where a determined person couldn't find some way to take offence from it - either on their own behalf or on behalf of a third party.

Okay but Brian was stating that the discomfort, pain or embarassement is necessary to the mecanism of humour while you are listing examples of it being incidental to it.

[brian 333]

Puns.

Puns aren't funny. A perfect pun makes everyone in the room groan, not laugh.

And while great swaths of humor has been cited as existing outside the limits I assigned, no one has given an example. The rude cow joke is actually a demonstration of my thesis: the person interrupted is embarrassed, everyone else laughs.

Find a joke that is both funny, and you wish it would have happened to you.

[hroþila]

The cow joke can be delivered as-is, with no interlocutor, and thus at no one's expense. It's how tons of jokes are shared these days, for example on Twitter, or on this very message board in the very post you're dismissing.

I can sense that this is going to be the weirdest, most random hill people will ever die on.

[Peelee]

Puns aren't funny. A perfect pun makes everyone in the room groan, not laugh.

And while great swaths of humor has been cited as existing outside the limits I assigned, no one has given an example. The rude cow joke is actually a demonstration of my thesis: the person interrupted is embarrassed, everyone else laughs.

Find a joke that is both funny, and you wish it would have happened to you.

Oh look, someone who made an entire out of the opposite of what you claim.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_Hedberg

Spoiler: Specific examples, if you wish

Show

I wear a necklace, cause I wanna know when I’m upside down.

That would be cool if you could eat a good food with a bad food and the good food would cover for the bad food when it got to your stomach. Like you could eat a carrot with an onion ring and they would travel down to your stomach, then they would get there, and the carrot would say, It’s cool, he’s with me.

Dogs are forever in the push up postion.

I like refried beans. That’s why I wanna try fried beans, because maybe they’re just as good and we’re just wasting time. You don’t have to fry them again after all.

Rice is great if you’re really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something.

My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.

My belt holds my pants up, but the belt loops hold my belt up. So which one is the real hero?

I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re goin’, and hook up with them later.

This shirt is dry clean only. Which means it’s dirty.

I like vending machines because snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at the store, oftentimes I will drop it so that is achieves its maximum flavor potential.

An escalator can never break: It can only become stairs. You should never see an ‘Escalator Temporarily Out Of Order’ sign, just ‘Escalator Temporarily Stairs. Sorry for the convenience.'

Chicago is known as the Windy City, and Montana is called the Big Sky State, so I think that we should somehow combine the two to create the ultimate kite-flying experience.

I think foosball is a combination of soccer and shishkabobs.

People teach their dogs to sit; it’s a trick. I’ve been sitting my whole life, and a dog has never looked at me as though he thought I was tricky.

I had a stick of CareFree gum, but it didn’t work. I felt pretty good while I was blowing that bubble, but as soon as the gum lost its flavor, I was back to pondering my mortality.”

I haven’t slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

I’m against picketing, but I don’t know how to show it.

I wanted to buy a candle holder, but the store didn’t have one. So I got a cake.

This one commercial said, ‘Forget everything you know about slipcovers.’ So I did, and it was a load off of my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell slipcovers, but I didn’t know what they were!

I think animal crackers make people think that all animals taste the same.

What am I drinking? NyQuil on the rocks, for when you’re feeling sick but sociable.

Last week, I helped my friend stay put. It’s a lot easier than helping them move. I just went over to his house and made sure that he did not start to load **** into a truck.

[Ruck]

But we did have her bonk Lien on the head not so long ago and as I recall nobody treated it as a noteworthy thing, so I'm wondering what's different this time.

But the fixation on bonking is weird either way, since she has done far worse things, so I'll definitely say that people are blowing it massively out of proportion given that the amount of discussion it's worth seems to me to be somewhere in the vicinity of zero.

Yeah, I think these two points in particular get at what I was trying to say.

Oh look, someone who made an entire out of the opposite of what you claim.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_Hedberg

Spoiler: Specific examples, if you wish

Show

Dogs are forever in the push up position.

Haha, it's about time someone stuck it to those dogs!

[dancrilis]

Puns aren't funny.

...

Find a joke that is both funny, and you wish it would have happened to you.

This is an impossible standard - if you can decide what is and isn't funny then anyone other then you trying to provide a joke that is 'both funny, and you wish it would have happened to you' can be dismissed if you don't find it funny (or presumedly if you don't want it happening to you).

But lets give it a go anyway: panel 3.

The funny is that O-Chul appearance is unexpected for both Hinjo and O-Chul and yet his first words are as if he is delivering a report and apologising for not giving warning about something he didn't have any control over after he unexpectedly escaped (almost) certain death (which he was resigned too) - all delivered with shock and delight on his face.

If I ever face (almost) certain death I hope that I will be unexpected saved from it and reunited with old friends - and that I can play it as calm and collected as O-Chul did.

[brian 333]

Oh look, someone who made an entire out of the opposite of what you claim.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_Hedberg

Spoiler: Specific examples, if you wish

Show

I wear a necklace, cause I wanna know when I’m upside down.

That would be cool if you could eat a good food with a bad food and the good food would cover for the bad food when it got to your stomach. Like you could eat a carrot with an onion ring and they would travel down to your stomach, then they would get there, and the carrot would say, It’s cool, he’s with me.

Dogs are forever in the push up postion.

I like refried beans. That’s why I wanna try fried beans, because maybe they’re just as good and we’re just wasting time. You don’t have to fry them again after all.

Rice is great if you’re really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something.

My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.

My belt holds my pants up, but the belt loops hold my belt up. So which one is the real hero?

I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re goin’, and hook up with them later.

This shirt is dry clean only. Which means it’s dirty.

I like vending machines because snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at the store, oftentimes I will drop it so that is achieves its maximum flavor potential.

An escalator can never break: It can only become stairs. You should never see an ‘Escalator Temporarily Out Of Order’ sign, just ‘Escalator Temporarily Stairs. Sorry for the convenience.'

Chicago is known as the Windy City, and Montana is called the Big Sky State, so I think that we should somehow combine the two to create the ultimate kite-flying experience.

I think foosball is a combination of soccer and shishkabobs.

People teach their dogs to sit; it’s a trick. I’ve been sitting my whole life, and a dog has never looked at me as though he thought I was tricky.

I had a stick of CareFree gum, but it didn’t work. I felt pretty good while I was blowing that bubble, but as soon as the gum lost its flavor, I was back to pondering my mortality.”

I haven’t slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

I’m against picketing, but I don’t know how to show it.

I wanted to buy a candle holder, but the store didn’t have one. So I got a cake.

This one commercial said, ‘Forget everything you know about slipcovers.’ So I did, and it was a load off of my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell slipcovers, but I didn’t know what they were!

I think animal crackers make people think that all animals taste the same.

What am I drinking? NyQuil on the rocks, for when you’re feeling sick but sociable.

Last week, I helped my friend stay put. It’s a lot easier than helping them move. I just went over to his house and made sure that he did not start to load **** into a truck.

Making oneself the butt of one's own jokes does not negate the requirement that there be a victim.

And as for puns, that's not my standard. Puns are funny because of the reaction of the victim, (the person who hears it.)

So, there is a whole lot of literature devoted to analyzing 'funny' and a whole lot of science that shows laughter generates pain-killer hormones. The evolution of humor predates humanity, and is most pronounced in animals that live in groups. (Yes, horses have a sense of humor too.)

There is one theory that explains it well, and that is that humor evolved with empathy, and that laughter is how communities bond and relieve social tensions and pain. It's not 'my' theory, but I think it's a good one.

But I'm not really interested in a debate on humor. I leave it to you to research or not, and to come to your own conclusions.

[Ortho]

Let me get this straight.

So, in this webcomic we're ok with violence, and decapitations, and bisection, and implosion, and keeping animals alive to harvest their parts...

...but slapstick is where we draw the line?