A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
You can get A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2 now at Gumroad
Page 17 of 17 FirstFirst ... 7891011121314151617
Results 481 to 507 of 507
  1. - Top - End - #481
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post


    Tolkien's intent was presumably that men and dwarves were found on Sauron's side, and some orcs on the side of the Alliance, with the various 'non-people' people like the giant eagles, dragons, trolls, wargs, spiders, sentient horses and so forth not being an intended part of the statement.
    Might be orcs included as well as "non-people people" for the statement.

    That or "un-natural people" - the creatures modified by Morgoth, hybrids descended from Ungoliant, etc. not being counted for "some of every kind were divided".


    I don't know that Eagles were entirely on the side of the Alliance. After all, as The Hobbit puts it:
    Eagles are not kindly birds. Some are cowardly and cruel. But the ancient race of the northern mountains were the greatest of all birds; they were proud and strong and noble-hearted.
    You could have other Eagles, from elsewhere, being "cowardly and cruel" and on the side of Sauron.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-09-27 at 03:02 PM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  2. - Top - End - #482
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    And yeah, the ring plan was honestly not all that great. The One itself, great, wonderful, makes Sauron immensely powerful to the point that almost no one can challenge him personally despite him being a pretty mediocre fighter. The Seven always feel underwhelming, they undermine a few dwarf kingdoms that would have come to wane with time anyway but bring little direct benefit. The Nine are great, the Nazgul are immensely powerful, nigh immortal and some of them presumably brought vassal kingdoms under Sauron's dominion. The Three... well he tried I guess. Ego issues, 'I must dominate all things, even the ones that are hard to dominate rather than going for the safe bets,' if he'd swallowed his pride and given all the lesser rings to men he'd have had a good bit more power.

    I do wonder how he recovered some of the rings but not all of them. They're rings after all, if you can carry one you can carry all 19. Presumably the Three were being kept seperately from the others, and their location was easier to reach an escape point from, but you'd think the first thing the elves would do when Sauron comes knocking with an army is gather all the rings together and be ready to destroy them or flee with them on a fast horse or an eagle or something.
    You're looking at the plan using outside meta-knowledge Sauron simply didn't have. He had no idea the rings wouldn't allow him to dominate dwarves in the same way they did Men. As for the Ring making him immensely powerful, you have that entirely backwards--the power of the One all came from Sauron himself, so he could presumably have personally done any of the feats he's seen doing while wearing the Ring before it was forged and he put so much of himself into it.

    As for where the Rings were kept, where would be safer than Eregion? The other major Elven settlements (Lothlorien, Imladris, the Havens) would just have fallen in turn, especially since they couldn't risk using the power of their rings while Sauron possessed the One.

    One other note, by the way: judging from Gandalf's description of the Rings of Power in LOTR, all 20 of the rings were Great Rings--he does mention lesser rings made by the smiths beforehand, but the Nazgul rings etc. were explicitly not these.

  3. - Top - End - #483
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    As for the Ring making him immensely powerful, you have that entirely backwards--the power of the One all came from Sauron himself, so he could presumably have personally done any of the feats he's seen doing while wearing the Ring before it was forged and he put so much of himself into it.

    FAQ of the Rings suggests that it wasn't just his own power in the Ring - some of Morgoth's power was in it too:

    https://brownmath.com/general/ringfaq.htm#QA

    There was no problem for Sauron as long as the Ring still existed; only if it was destroyed would he be fatally weakened. [L #200 (260)]
    While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in ‘rapport’ with himself: he was not ‘diminished’.” [L #131 (153)]

    While he wasn’t actually wearing the Ring, Sauron couldn’t tap into its powers; that’s why he wanted to get it back. But his own power that he had let pass into it was still available to him as long as no one else claimed it and was powerful enough to keep it. Perhaps the chart below will help. (Similar “algebra” has been posted to the newsgroup several times, but the following is not taken from any such article, at least not consciously.)


    Sauron’s native power, early in the Second Age S
    A “great part” of Sauron’s power, that passed into the Ring around S.A. 1600 X
    Extra (new) power in the Ring, concentrated from the “Morgoth element” of Arda (See below.) R
    Total power in the Ring R + X
    Sauron’s power while he wore the Ring S + R
    Sauron’s power while the Ring was not on his finger but unclaimed by anyone else S
    Sauron’s power if the Ring were destroyed, or if someone else claimed it and managed to keep it S – X (very small)
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  4. - Top - End - #484
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Might be orcs included as well as "non-people people" for the statement.

    That or "un-natural people" - the creatures modified by Morgoth, hybrids descended from Ungoliant, etc. not being counted for "some of every kind were divided".


    I don't know that Eagles were entirely on the side of the Alliance. After all, as The Hobbit puts it:


    You could have other Eagles, from elsewhere, being "cowardly and cruel" and on the side of Sauron.
    Perhaps, though orcs seem to be considered people by Tolkien, at least in the later takes on them. The general gist seems to be that Elves, Men, Hobbits, Dwarves, Ents(described as having 'rational souls', the same description used for human/elf/dwarf souls) and Orcs have souls of some sort, and are as such people.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    You're looking at the plan using outside meta-knowledge Sauron simply didn't have. He had no idea the rings wouldn't allow him to dominate dwarves in the same way they did Men. As for the Ring making him immensely powerful, you have that entirely backwards--the power of the One all came from Sauron himself, so he could presumably have personally done any of the feats he's seen doing while wearing the Ring before it was forged and he put so much of himself into it.

    As for where the Rings were kept, where would be safer than Eregion? The other major Elven settlements (Lothlorien, Imladris, the Havens) would just have fallen in turn, especially since they couldn't risk using the power of their rings while Sauron possessed the One.

    One other note, by the way: judging from Gandalf's description of the Rings of Power in LOTR, all 20 of the rings were Great Rings--he does mention lesser rings made by the smiths beforehand, but the Nazgul rings etc. were explicitly not these.
    That elves are hard to corrupt and dwarves are stubborn is not exactly meta-knowledge, Sauron had been dealing with them for a few milennia at this point and could probably have worked out they would be resistent to his domination in one manner or another. Though I think the timeline would suggest he spent more time around humans and orcs than anything else, his time as Annatar is dwarfed by his time in other forms which spent little time with elves or dwarves.

    The ring did make Sauron stronger, it's one of those oddities about making things in the setting, a made thing can be stronger than it's maker in various ways. Which is actually true to life in some ways, I can make a bow that allows me to do things I couldn't without it. It held some of his power in a form that would not diminish so readily as he himself, and it enhanced the powers he desired. His will to dominate, his cruelty, his sorcery and so forth were all enhanced by the One such that he was more powerful in some respects while wearing it than he was before it was made. It's greatest benefit was projecting his influence into anyone carrying the other rings, but it still did things to him on a more personal scale.

    As for keeping the rings from Sauron, they managed it with the Three, which Sauron wanted more than all the others combined. Fleeing with all shouldn't be much harder than fleeing with a few, and Middle Earth held out for a long time between Sauron sacking Eregion. Skimming some bits, I get the impression that Celebrimbor was keeping the Nine and Seven somewhere in his halls, and didn't try to send them away until Sauron already had him encircled. Despite the fact he had 100 years between the One first being worn and Sauron attacking him. That's elven pride for you I guess.

    When I said lesser, I meant in the sense that the 19 are less than the One, rather than them being lesser in the sense Gandalf meant when referring to the myriad inconsequential rings. Though the One's superiority is debateable, the Three are very powerful after all, I consider the One to be the foremost among the Great Rings.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

  5. - Top - End - #485
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2009

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    The original plan never involved men or dwarfs. All 19 great rings were made by elves for elves (with maybe one given to the king of Moria in friendship) and Sauron's plan was to dominate all of them. If he had the elves he would have had Middle Earth. Making war upon the elves and recovering the rings to gift them to other ("lesser") races was only plan B after the elves saw through his plan A.

    Whether he was justified in only focusing on the elves is debatable in the face of Numenor. It reeks of first-age-thinking when the elves were the only major power opposing Morgoth and men were just auxiliaries in their armies. Anyway, he did not have much of a choice, it would have been rather suspicious if Anatar/Sauron had asked Celebrimbor to just gift dozens of the most powerful artifacts ever crafted to foreign kings of men or dwarfs.
    Last edited by Seppl; 2022-09-27 at 05:30 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #486
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post

    The ring did make Sauron stronger, it's one of those oddities about making things in the setting, a made thing can be stronger than it's maker in various ways. Which is actually true to life in some ways, I can make a bow that allows me to do things I couldn't without it. It held some of his power in a form that would not diminish so readily as he himself, and it enhanced the powers he desired. His will to dominate, his cruelty, his sorcery and so forth were all enhanced by the One such that he was more powerful in some respects while wearing it than he was before it was made. It's greatest benefit was projecting his influence into anyone carrying the other rings, but it still did things to him on a more personal scale.
    Apparently one of Tolkien's letters suggests that it was because of the Ring, that he was able to corrupt the Numenoreans so easily:

    https://brownmath.com/general/ringfaq.htm#Q1-Numenor

    “He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.” [L #211 (279)]
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  7. - Top - End - #487
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    The original plan never involved men or dwarfs. All 19 great rings were made by elves for elves (with maybe one given to the king of Moria in friendship) and Sauron's plan was to dominate all of them. If he had the elves he would have had Middle Earth. Making war upon the elves and recovering the rings to gift them to other ("lesser") races was only plan B after the elves saw through his plan A.

    Whether he was justified in only focusing on the elves is debatable in the face of Numenor. It reeks of first-age-thinking when the elves were the only major power opposing Morgoth and men were just auxiliaries in their armies. Anyway, he did not have much of a choice, it would have been rather suspicious if Anatar/Sauron had asked Celebrimbor to just gift dozens of the most powerful artifacts ever crafted to foreign kings of men or dwarfs.
    Reading some bits of the timeline I get the impression that Celebrimbor's plan for the Nine and the Seven was much the same as Feanor's plan for the Silmarils. Own them, keep them in a box, look at them from time to time, do nothing of value with them. A pretty normal failing to be honest.

    They weren't given out to elven lords, or even being worn by anyone by the sounds of things. They were made, shelved, the next iteration made, shelved and then the Three were made and Sauron tried to spring his trap, all were hidden with the Three being hidden far better than the others. I imagine they would have been given out eventually, as gifts to other lords or to mighty champions, but at least in the immediate sense I get the impression that they were made for no particular purpose. Despite being around for a loooooong time before Sauron dropped to one knee and popped the question.

    Given Sauron's place as a friend and advisor to Celebrimbor I think he could have persuaded him to give the Nine and Seven away to 'worthy' men and dwarves, when a friend says 'hey, we should be closer friends to the kingdoms of men, and maybe strengthen our ties with Durin's folk for all the long years we've worked together against Morgoth and that ******** Sauron,' you have to be a bit of a **** not to go 'yeah actually, that sounds sensible. We should look through them for good potential ringbearers.'





    Also, Annatar claimed to be an emissary from the Valar, which for some reason no one in Valinor seemed to notice. I would have thought Manwe or Ulmo would pick up on that via birds or water and go 'Hang on, we don't have any maiar over there at the moment.'
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

  8. - Top - End - #488
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Elves and dwarves being hard to corrupt is not apparent from the history Sauron knows, both fought wars over the Silmarils. He couldn't know they were resistant until he tried it.

    Re fleeing with all the rings, that massively depends on how they were stored, how they were recovered. He might have sent nineteen fellowships of the rings in different directs and only the three escaped. We don't know what the precautions involved were, so it's impossible to judge them.

  9. - Top - End - #489
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    Whether he was justified in only focusing on the elves is debatable in the face of Numenor. It reeks of first-age-thinking when the elves were the only major power opposing Morgoth and men were just auxiliaries in their armies.
    Numenoreans were Men, and Sauron already knew that Men are by far and away the most easily corruptable of all the races--as in fact he proved with his part in the downfall of Numenor. So him not rating them as an enemy is entirely expected, to be honest.
    Last edited by factotum; 2022-09-28 at 12:37 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #490
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Reading some bits of the timeline I get the impression that Celebrimbor's plan for the Nine and the Seven was much the same as Feanor's plan for the Silmarils. Own them, keep them in a box, look at them from time to time, do nothing of value with them. A pretty normal failing to be honest.

    They weren't given out to elven lords, or even being worn by anyone by the sounds of things. They were made, shelved, the next iteration made, shelved and then the Three were made and Sauron tried to spring his trap, all were hidden with the Three being hidden far better than the others.
    Somebody was wearing some rings, because it was wearing rings, that resulted in the situation of Sauron trying to control them through the rings, them becoming aware of it, and them taking their rings off.

    Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

    But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings. But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them.

    Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world. But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring. Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  11. - Top - End - #491
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Somebody was wearing some rings, because it was wearing rings, that resulted in the situation of Sauron trying to control them through the rings, them becoming aware of it, and them taking their rings off.
    I think that passage refers to the elves wearing the Three specifically.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

  12. - Top - End - #492
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    We know from Unfinished Tales that Galadriel and Gil-galad did not come into possession of their rings until some time after Sauron forged The One, and Celebrimbor (and other Elves) became aware of his plan.

    She and Celeborn had ruled Eregion until the Mirdain (the group of jewelsmiths influenced by Sauron, including Celebrimbor) had deposed them from power and they chose to leave.

    The Seven and the Nine were created by Elves, for Elves. Makes sense to me that Elves would be wearing them at the moment Sauron recited the "ring rhyme" with the intent of controlling the elves.

    https://brownmath.com/general/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Intent

    The intended purpose of the Rings was preserving Middle-earth from change. This is an Elvish motive, not likely to appeal to Dwarves and especially not to Men.

    In the Ring-rhyme, only the sixth and seventh lines (“One Ring to rule them all ...”) were spoken by Sauron. They were most likely part of the spell that created the One Ring, since he also inscribed the verses in the Ring. Gandalf quotes those lines (in the Black Speech and then in Westron) at the Council of Elrond, adding: “Out of the Black Years come the words that the Smiths of Eregion heard, and knew that they had been betrayed” [LotR II 2 (271-272)].

    The other six lines were “lore”, written by some unknown person after Sauron had seized the Seven and the Nine Rings and given them out to his intended victims. When those lines cite numbers of Rings “for” Elves, Dwarves, and Men, that is hindsight and not an expression of original intent. Tolkien makes this clear at one point where he mentions Sauron handing out the seized Rings and then adds “Hence the ‘ancient rhyme’ that appears as the leit-motif of The Lord of the Rings” [L #131 (153)].

    Steuard Jensen points out [r.a.b.t article of 2002-07-16] that not only did the Elves originally intend for the Seven and the Nine to be kept by Elves, Sauron originally intended it too. When he made and put on the One Ring to control the others and their wearers, he intended to make the Elf-lords his slaves. But they immediately realized his purpose and thwarted him by taking off their Rings. Only then did he make open war on Eregion, take the Rings, and give them out to Men and Dwarves. (The above-cited article lays out an interesting scenario for how things might have gone if the Elves had not realized their danger and thus fallen under his domination.)
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  13. - Top - End - #493
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2009

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Not sure about the interpretation that the rings were specifically made to help preserving Middle Earth. When those same rings were given to Dwarfs it made them rich but also more greedy. Men became more powerful but also more power-hungry. Hobbits - who are noted for their small size and sneakiness - would use even the One Ring only to become completely invisible. It seems, the rings were intended to make the wearer more of what they already were or wanted to be. In case of the Elves that meant making them even more timeless, including the places where they lived. Also the corrupting touch of Sauron on the Nine and the Seven seems to have added an additional negative twist to this general theme.

  14. - Top - End - #494
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PontificatusRex's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    State of Uncertainty
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    Hobbits - who are noted for their small size and sneakiness - would use even the One Ring only to become completely invisible.
    Mmmm, I don't think that's right. We saw Sam just touch the very edges of the Ring's mental powers in Minas Morgul was he was terrifying that orc on the stairs, and he definitely fantasized about using the Ring to become the master of Middle Earth himself, before he snapped out of it.

    Pretty sure the invisibility was an effect that worked on everyone except for Sauron, who I assume could turn it on or off. We're told that Isildur tried to use the Ring to escape when ambushed by orcs, but it slipped off in the river and he was spotted.
    Some people think that Chaotic Neutral is the alignment of the insane, but the enlightened know that Chaotic Neutral is the only alignment without illusions of sanity.

  15. - Top - End - #495
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by PontificatusRex View Post
    Pretty sure the invisibility was an effect that worked on everyone except for Sauron, who I assume could turn it on or off. We're told that Isildur tried to use the Ring to escape when ambushed by orcs, but it slipped off in the river and he was spotted.
    It didn't work on Tom Bombadil either. As I understand it, the invisibility functions because the ring transports the wearer to the edge of the wraith world, rendering them invisible to normal eyes, allowing them to see into the invisible plane, and allowing the invisible plane to see them wearer back. Tom, I suppose, as a nature spirit was simply beyond the power of the ring to transport in any such way.

    From this I suspect the very powerful , those with power equivalent to Sauron or near to it, can resist invisibility if they so wish.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  16. - Top - End - #496
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    It didn't work on Tom Bombadil either.
    Tom Bombadil was explicitly a special case--as said by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond, the Ring had no power over him. Even if its effect had been to turn your hair blue and give you cutesy anime eyes that wouldn't have worked on Tom either.

  17. - Top - End - #497
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Tom Bombadil was explicitly a special case--as said by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond, the Ring had no power over him. Even if its effect had been to turn your hair blue and give you cutesy anime eyes that wouldn't have worked on Tom either.
    Thank you for that mental image. It shall no doubt haunt my nightmares for several days.

    Tongue-in-cheek,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  18. - Top - End - #498
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Aug 2022
    Location
    the other Pacific coast
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    the "invisibility" is a mere side effect of the one ring taking its wearer to the realm of wraiths.
    That's why Frodo was able to see the human shapes of the righwraiths when wearing it. (who were similarly affected by their own, lesser, rings)

    I forget the source, but I suspect it was pretty much spelled out like that in the LotR books themselves.

    Sauron, being a Maiar, a "super-natural" creature; wasn't invisible because the realm of wraiths is his "home" in the first place.
    The body he manifests for mortals to see is just an "illusion"/projection, if you will.
    That's also why Isildur couldn't "kill" Sauron, only destroy his body.

    As to why it didn't affect Tom Bombadil....
    Iirc, there is no "canonical" explanation, but many literary critics combine clues from Tolkein's different works to infer that Tom is himself a Maiar, like Sauron.

  19. - Top - End - #499
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by MetroAlien View Post
    the "invisibility" is a mere side effect of the one ring taking its wearer to the realm of wraiths.
    That's why Frodo was able to see the human shapes of the righwraiths when wearing it. (who were similarly affected by their own, lesser, rings)

    I forget the source, but I suspect it was pretty much spelled out like that in the LotR books themselves.

    Sauron, being a Maiar, a "super-natural" creature; wasn't invisible because the realm of wraiths is his "home" in the first place.
    The body he manifests for mortals to see is just an "illusion"/projection, if you will.
    That's also why Isildur couldn't "kill" Sauron, only destroy his body.

    As to why it didn't affect Tom Bombadil....
    Iirc, there is no "canonical" explanation, but many literary critics combine clues from Tolkein's different works to infer that Tom is himself a Maiar, like Sauron.
    Check me on this, but Tom Bombadil is the equivalent of a JJ Abrams "mystery box" ... a deliberately unexplained phenomenon to peak the curiosity of the reader. Same as "Far Harad" and "Rhun" -- all those places on the map of Middle-Earth that aren't filled in but tantalize the reader with vague hints and suggestions of glorious cities and grand adventures.


    Tolkien did this well; he left enough mystery in for his audience to be left wanting more. It didn't do so well for Abrams in the Star Wars trilogy, because the next director tried to explain all his mystery boxes and many of those directions were unsatisfying to the fan base.

    Sometimes it's best to leave something up to the imagination.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  20. - Top - End - #500
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Earth and/or not-Earth
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Tolkien did this well; he left enough mystery in for his audience to be left wanting more. It didn't do so well for Abrams in the Star Wars trilogy, because the next director tried to explain all his mystery boxes and many of those directions were unsatisfying to the fan base.
    Also, Tolkien had the good sense to make his deliberately mysterious stuff peripheral to the main plot rather than major details about the protagonists.
    I'm making a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.

  21. - Top - End - #501
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Check me on this, but Tom Bombadil is the equivalent of a JJ Abrams "mystery box" ... a deliberately unexplained phenomenon to peak the curiosity of the reader.
    I'm not convinced that Tolkien put as much thought into Bombadil as that, TBH. The reason he feels like he walked in from some other story is because he largely did--his first appearance was in a 1934 poem which also included Goldberry, Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wight. Not going to complain about that because I think his inclusion led to the Hobbits being lost on the Barrow-downs, which I think is one of the better passages from the books--the bit where they wake up against the standing stone after the fog has descended is genuinely chilling and makes you wonder how Tolkien would have written a full-on ghost story.

  22. - Top - End - #502
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Aug 2022
    Location
    the other Pacific coast
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    I tend to agree with factotum.
    Tom Bombadil is a cameo from Tolkien's other work, which is likely unrelated to LotR.

    Also, we have to consider that Tom Bombadil is one of the very first encounters for the Hobbits outside the Shire.
    I have no proof of this, but my conjecture is that this scene was written before Tolkien was aware in his mind how grand and epic the LotR story would become.

    Of course, this doesn't in the least exclude the possibility of Tom playing the "mystery box" role.
    One might say that, from a literary point of view, Tom Bombadil and the fantastical forest he inhabits are an hors d'oeuvre (for both the reader and the hobbits) of what the world outside the "safe" confines of the Shire is like.
    His mystery emphasises the dangers of the journey to come, and how outclassed the hobbits are, almost on a metaphysical level; but also that the seemingly insurmountable evil will be matched by equally powerful good.
    This is a valid reading for both the forest and the barrow mounds scenes.

    I guess such a reading can also explain why Tom Bombadil doesn't figure much in the events afterwards. After all, his mystery isn't the one to be solved.

    If you squint hard enough, there's almost a certain "rhyme" (as George Lucas would say) between the barrow mound scene and the ring's destruction.
    In both cases, Frodo is "in a pinch" partly due to his own carelessness, but partly due to superhuman forces seeking to corrupt his character.
    In both cases, Frodo struggles against his impending doom, but is ultimately saved by "deus ex machina", if you will, an almost divine act.

    Personally, would say these writing choices are in part influenced by Tolkien's experiences in the war: something larger than his entire personal world acting on him.
    I haven't read them myself, but some critics say that this is also in the vein of Tolkien's views on spirituality, which he allegedly expresses in his letters to Lewis (author of the Narnia books).

  23. - Top - End - #503
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by MetroAlien View Post
    I tend to agree with factotum.
    Tom Bombadil is a cameo from Tolkien's other work, which is likely unrelated to LotR.

    Also, we have to consider that Tom Bombadil is one of the very first encounters for the Hobbits outside the Shire.
    I have no proof of this, but my conjecture is that this scene was written before Tolkien was aware in his mind how grand and epic the LotR story would become.

    Of course, this doesn't in the least exclude the possibility of Tom playing the "mystery box" role.
    One might say that, from a literary point of view, Tom Bombadil and the fantastical forest he inhabits are an hors d'oeuvre (for both the reader and the hobbits) of what the world outside the "safe" confines of the Shire is like.
    His mystery emphasises the dangers of the journey to come, and how outclassed the hobbits are, almost on a metaphysical level; but also that the seemingly insurmountable evil will be matched by equally powerful good.
    This is a valid reading for both the forest and the barrow mounds scenes.

    I guess such a reading can also explain why Tom Bombadil doesn't figure much in the events afterwards. After all, his mystery isn't the one to be solved.

    If you squint hard enough, there's almost a certain "rhyme" (as George Lucas would say) between the barrow mound scene and the ring's destruction.
    In both cases, Frodo is "in a pinch" partly due to his own carelessness, but partly due to superhuman forces seeking to corrupt his character.
    In both cases, Frodo struggles against his impending doom, but is ultimately saved by "deus ex machina", if you will, an almost divine act.

    Personally, would say these writing choices are in part influenced by Tolkien's experiences in the war: something larger than his entire personal world acting on him.
    I haven't read them myself, but some critics say that this is also in the vein of Tolkien's views on spirituality, which he allegedly expresses in his letters to Lewis (author of the Narnia books).
    I believe Tolkien stated in one of his letters that the "Shadow of the Past" chapter was quite early in his conception. So he knew he was going epic. But I agree that he did not know yet how he was going epic with his hobbits, and that Bombadil's presence is due in part to Tolkien's befuddlement on that regard. That said, weird as Bombadil is, his 3 chapters do serve the function of "transition into a larger world from the safe confines of the Shire". It's basically Tolkien's version of an RPG "grind".
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2022-09-29 at 03:22 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #504
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    I believe Tolkien stated in one of his letters that the "Shadow of the Past" chapter was quite early in his conception. So he knew he was going epic. But I agree that he did not know yet how he was going epic with his hobbits, and that Bombadil's presence is due in part to Tolkien's befuddlement on that regard. That said, weird as Bombadil is, his 3 chapters do serve the function of "transition into a larger world from the safe confines of the Shire". It's basically Tolkien's version of an RPG "grind".
    In Tolkien's own words, 'the tale grew in telling.' His publisher might have described it differently, such as "Tolkien nearly wrote himself into a corner in getting the hobbits out of the shire, and finally got off of top dead center and got the story moving again"

    Matt Colville has an interesting interpretation of the hobbits' journey from the shire, through the Old Forest, to the real world of Bree, Rivendell, Moria, Lorien, Rohan Gondor, Mordor and then back to the Shire.
    It starts at about minute 10 of this presentation. I'll try to paraphrase his take on it, and then expand on it a bit.

    The Shire is not in tune with harsh reality. It is an almost idyllic paradise where the cold, cruel world does not intrude, or has not for centuries. It is in every way a make-believe place.

    The further the hobbits get from the Shire, through the dangerous old forest, and thence to Bree and beyond the more exposed they are to reality, death, danger, hunger, loss, and so on. They arrive in the world of Men, not the world of Hobbits.

    In the war between Gondor and Mordor, as well as in the battles between Saruman and Rohan, the hobbits aren't just dealing with the cold cruel world, they are dealing with one of the cruelest things in reality: war. When they journey back to the shire, through the Rohan gap, Rivendell, eventually the Shire, they slowly retreat from the world and back to the non reality of the Shire ... except that Saruman has dragged industrial-age reality into their bucolic paradise and ruined it! (This is similar to Gandalf, in the beginning of LoTR, bringing the harsh reality of Sauron's Ring, and the real world out there, to Frodo's attention in that protected, idyllic Shire). They expel Saruman's ruffians and send them packing, Saruman gets his just desserts from Wormtongue, but the Men helping him flee from the Shire. The Shire is indeed purged/cleansed/scoured of that vile influence of Men. (Humans) It takes magic to restore the Shire to its former (unrealistic) perfection. Sam plants the new party tree, using the seed from a Mallorn of Lorien, so that the Shire by the end of the books returns to this bucolic paradise that is unsoiled by the harsh reality of the World of Men.

    In the Silmarillion, the only paradise is Valinor, the Undying lands, which are no longer connected to Earth/Middle Earth.
    In LotR, the only paradise that survives in middle earth is The Shire, which is on the earth but not of the earth; it is a bucolic paradise tucked away from the World of Men. Note that Aragorn, King Ellesar, when he visits (per the appendices) does not enter the Shire. It's off limits, to Men.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-09-29 at 11:00 AM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  25. - Top - End - #505
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    Sauron might also expect that the Elves might not be able to resist the temptation of using that kind of power, even knowing that it is dangerous. That is the way he thinks, and he was often proven correct in this regard. So many bad things in Middle Earth would not have happened if people did not constantly overestimate their ability to handle dangerous powers. Here he just had the bad luck that the Three were in the hands of the three oldest, most conservatively cautious elf lords left in Middle Earth. And even those used the power of the rings extensively after Sauron went missing.
    I'm at work and have no way to dig for the reference, but there's one description of Cirdan giving Narya to Gandalf where he explicitly says he's never used it. (Of course, the good Professor did sometimes change his mind about such things.) Only Galadriel and Elrond "gave in" and used their rings to construct realms.

    I've always thought (see my head canon post above) that Narya was different than the other two, although that could just be how Gandalf chose to wield it's power (which seems to have been pretty sparingly, although I suspect it got a fair amount of use during the War of the Ring). If Celebrimbor did make it for Annatar, that would make sense, because his and Galadriel's Rings would have been to the benefit of themselves and their realms of Lothlorien and Eregion, while as far as Celebrimbor knew, Annatar was a wandering helper and teacher, with no realm to rule.

  26. - Top - End - #506
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    I do wonder how he recovered some of the rings but not all of them. They're rings after all, if you can carry one you can carry all 19. Presumably the Three were being kept seperately from the others, and their location was easier to reach an escape point from, but you'd think the first thing the elves would do when Sauron comes knocking with an army is gather all the rings together and be ready to destroy them or flee with them on a fast horse or an eagle or something.
    I can't recall if it's in the Silmarillion, HoME, or elsewhere, but there's a somewhat detailed description by Tolkien of the fall of Eregion. In it, iirc, he explains that the Nine were taken easily by Sauron once he captured the city, but that the Seven and the Three had been hidden. We know the Three were sent away, with Narya and Vilya going to Gil-galad, and Nenya either being sent to Galadriel, or already in her possession. And maybe the Nine were viewed by the Elves as less important, so they could have "merely" been locked in the most secue vault of the Brotherhood of Jewelsmiths. (While my memory is a bit fuzzy, it seems likely that the elves of Eregion didn't expect Sauron to defeat them easily, or they would have fled.)

    I'd always thought of the Seven as being locked away in one or more hidden vaults (probably my D&D influence), but as I recall there's no explicit textual confirmation of that, just that the Seven were hidden and that Celebrimbor gave up their hiding places under torture, but would not reveal the Three. In retrospect, it seems quite possible that some of all of the hiding places of the Seven could have been with people.

    In that case, what Celebrimbor gave up may have well been something like, "two are with Elfriel about three days down the west road, one is with Elfo at his hidden house up in the hills, and the rest are headed north with Elfhad and his friends as fast as they can go" with Sauron then hunting them down. That could even lend some truth to the Dwarves of Durin's line belief they they got their ring directly from Celebrimbor. ("Take this and hide it from Sauron at all costs.") Then their ring wouldn't have been directly corrupted by Sauron laying his hards on it, but he would have known were it was after torturing Celebrimbor. That would have given him years to focus his will on it, while wearing the One, and it seems to me a degree of corruption could have been afflicted on it under such circumstances. And/or, a less corrupted Ring might have helped explain why that was the last of the Seven that Sauron recovered; he had less influence over it.

    Belated speculative thought: If Celebrimbor did give one of the Seven to (a) Durin, that could have been Sauron's inspiration for the whole backup ring-plan. Something along these lines:

    Sauron, thinking to himself post-Eregion,

    "Okay, so I've got the nine Rings Mk I, and all but one of the Mk IIs. I can't use my Bestest Ring on Deadelf's Unlicensed IP-violating Knockoffs, because no one is wearing them and I don't even know where they are. Plus, they don't have any malware, just the backdoors I put in RingOS.

    "But I do know where my missing Mark II is. It's locked up under that cursed mountain. I wonder if I can use my Ring Numero Uno to at least track it down and do something with its malware and backdoors? Hey, I can! I can even do some remote changes to its software. If the dwarf would just put it on, I'd bet I could do to him what I was planning on doing to those pesky Elves.

    "You know, I've got a stack of Mark Is and Mark IIs right here. Why don't I add some more malware, and give them out to Men and Dwarves who have bad Ring-security awareness? They'll put them right on. Sure, they're not Elves, but I just roflstomped the Elves anyway. This may end up better than I'd planned. I really am the smartest being in Creation."
    Last edited by runeghost; 2022-09-30 at 09:36 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #507
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Worcestershire, UK

    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by runeghost View Post
    ... Something along these lines:

    Sauron, thinking to himself post-Eregion,

    "Okay, so I've got the nine Rings Mk I, and all but one of the Mk IIs. I can't use my Bestest Ring on Deadelf's Unlicensed IP-violating Knockoffs, because no one is wearing them and I don't even know where they are. Plus, they don't have any malware, just the backdoors I put in RingOS.

    "But I do know where my missing Mark II is. It's locked up under that cursed mountain. I wonder if I can use my Ring Numero Uno to at least track it down and do something with its malware and backdoors? Hey, I can! I can even do some remote changes to its software. If the dwarf would just put it on, I'd bet I could do to him what I was planning on doing to those pesky Elves.

    "You know, I've got a stack of Mark Is and Mark IIs right here. Why don't I add some more malware, and give them out to Men and Dwarves who have bad Ring-security awareness? They'll put them right on. Sure, they're not Elves, but I just roflstomped the Elves anyway. This may end up better than I'd planned. I really am the smartest being in Creation."
    Bizarrely, this is partially in line with my thinking when I ported LotR to Cyberpunk that one time.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •