Pendell reads the Silmarillion

[J-H]

In modern terms, Glorfindel has some of the best templates available to mortal, then leveled up several times killing a Balrog in a world where most people never get past level 2 or level 3.

But Tolkein left "how magic works" "what is magic" "what elven magic does" and a bunch of other questions completely unanswered - and I think the story is the better for it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or are they completely unheralded in the song? Eru's little joke, as it were?

Bingo. Or even Tolkien's little linguistic joke. There are various articles on the etymology of the word hobbit / holbytla) - as illustrated by this sentence:
In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. (Tolkien says that it means ‘hole-dweller’.)

I think in the case of the half-elven any coupling of man and elf could produce children, it was just a circumstance so rare that it basically never happened outside of that lineage, or at least rare among people of historical significance.

The great unwashed were up to all kinds of shenanigans whilst the reader was looking elsewhere ...

*Glaurung is referred to as the Father of Dragons and is the first dragon used in battle by Morgoth and he had fire breath, but it's not specified if he was the first of all dragons to be created or simply the strongest of the early ones and the progenitor (physical or spiritual) of the fire dragons that came after him. Given that a lot of Morgoth's creations started out weak and got improved by successive efforts, I'm inclined to the latter, that Glaurung is simply the greatest dragon bred before the ones with wings.

I would need to open the book again, but I think that 'wyrms' were the first iteration of what became dragons, however I may not have recalled that correctly.

[factotum]

It says in the wiki that Glaurung was explicitly the very first fire-breathing dragon, albeit wingless, and honestly there's nothing in the text of the book to suggest otherwise, so I'm happy to go with that. He may well have helped father the entire race of dragons that came thereafter--after all, we know that orcs and others of Morgoth's creations could breed, so no reason he shouldn't have been able to.

[Fyraltari]

It says in the wiki that Glaurung was explicitly the very first fire-breathing dragon, albeit wingless, and honestly there's nothing in the text of the book to suggest otherwise, so I'm happy to go with that. He may well have helped father the entire race of dragons that came thereafter--after all, we know that orcs and others of Morgoth's creations could breed, so no reason he shouldn't have been able to.

"Father(s) of [insert race here] "usually seems more figurative than literal in the Silmarillion, meaning more "first members" than "actual biological father". See the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, for example.

[runeghost]

And here we get to my LoTR pet peeve, the inevitable Gandalf fan-wank.

Spoiler: Rant

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Gandalf is a Maiar, not a Valar, and even among Maiar, though he is the wisest of them, he is not among the most powerful.

There are many times were Gandalf is stymied or threatened by mortals, and there are many times when Maiar are bested or even killed by exceptional mortals, and some exceptional elves even trick or stand their ground against the Valar.

Gandalf the grey is threatened by orcs and wargs several times, killed by a balrog, and captured by Sarumon. We are told both in and put of character he is far weaker than Sauron, and the Witch King thinks he has a shot at taking down the white wizard.

Likewise, the balrog fights Gandalf to a double death, and other Balrogs were killed by elves in the first age. Sarumon was defeated by ents. And Sauron was captured by the numenoreans and then slain by gil galad and erendil.

In short, I think the power of Maiar, and Gandalf in particular, is greatly overstated by the fanbase.

Also relevant: Gandalf's power was augmented by Narya (one of the Three Rings of the Elves). That let's him do more - I suspect much of what we see him doing "on screen" in the books is aided by his Ring. Meaning that what he could do as a Maiar was even more limited that what we see him doing. Saruman, for example, does even less than Gandalf directly (and possibly even had his own Ring to boost his power).

[runeghost]

It goes even beyond that - he was born in the Blessed realm and saw the Trees, which would put him above almost all elves we could meet in LotR, but (long) after he went to Middle-Earth during the Flight of the Ñoldor, he sacrificed his life to kill a Balrog, protecting the elves fleeing Gondolin. His reward was not only a shortened stay in the Halls of Mandos, but also Manwë deciding to send him back to Middle-Earth (something that basically never happens) with a further power boost, supposedly elevating him to be more like a Maia than a "mere" elf.

I seem to recall one point in the HoME when either Christopher or his father describes Glorfindel as an "apprentice Maiar". While I don't think he actually travelled with Gandalf, that gives us three "pairs" of envoys from the Blessed Ream: The Blue Wizards, Saruman and Radagast, and Gandalf and Glorfiendel.

[Grim Portent]

I would need to open the book again, but I think that 'wyrms' were the first iteration of what became dragons, however I may not have recalled that correctly.

I think wyrms being proto-dragons is somewhat speculative.

My thought is that Glaurung is the first dragon ever used in battle, but if wyrms are his progenitors that would mean Morgoth had a large number of wyrms he wasn't using in battle earlier for... reasons?

While I don't think Tolkien ever really went into detail on the lesser dragon breeds, it seems safe to assume the nigh impervious scales and immense size are a consistent quality, the wyrms would have been valuable in war even without claws or fire breath, able to crush and terrorise the forces of the elves. Granted Morgoth is very patient, but it would be odd to pass over such powerful weapons.

Glaurung being an iterative improvement over wyrms does fit with many of Morgoth's other creations, orcs and trolls being the prime example, starting out incredibly weak and being improved on over time by Morgoth and then Sauron and Saruman creating the pinnacle of orc-kind in the Uruk-Hai of Isengard and Black Uruks of Mordor, and the Olog-Hai of Mordor being the greatest breed of trolls in every respect. Though I think there is an implication that the earliest orcs were stronger than the ones that came later, with them becoming watered down over time until Sauron started working on them.


But there's also a few of Morgoth's servants that started out with very strong examples, mostly the fallen maiar,* who then had weaker descendants until those descendants were improved upon with sorcery and selective breeding. Draugluin, the first werewolf, being the prime example with only one descendant, Carcharoth, being equal or greater than him and that required the personal involvement of Morgoth.

Glaurung could then be the literal Father of Dragons as Draugluin is the first of the werewolves, the product of a long process of warping and twisting a single creature and binding it with a foul spirit and then letting the new creation mature and grow. Future efforts to recreate Glaurung, or to breed him organically, needn't have produced creatures that were his equal, at least at first, resulting in the wyrms and cold-drakes, from whom were eventually bred the new fire-drakes and winged dragons.


I don't think there's anything definitive in favour of either interpretation, unless there's something in one of Tolkien's notes.


*Evil spirits technically, I'm not sure they are ever explicitly referred to as maiar in the published text, but it's the most obvious assumption for what they were. Sauron and the Balrogs may have been the greatest of the corrupted maiar, but it's reasonable to assume that they were not the only ones.

[pendell]

Response to others below the entry. it's early but I have time today and I don't know if I will tomorrow, so let's go!

Of Eldamar and the princes of the Eldalie
Backstory-riffic!

Spoiler

Show

As told, a subset of the elves are on the way to Valimar, and these have been collectively named the Eldar, 'people of the stars', who have followed Orome and been obedient to the summons.

When they arrive on the shores of the sea, rather than build ships, Ulmo and Osse simply put them all on a big island, and more the island itself across the sea and join to Valimar in the world's fastest exercise of continental drift. Part of the island breaks off and is left behind; it is called the isle of Balar on later maps.

Thus the Vanyar and the Noldor come to Valinor, and they found the city of Tirion on the hill of Tuna in the realm. Other features of interest include Calacirya, 'pass of light', so named because the light of the two trees spills out through this cleft in the mountains out onto the shadowy world of middle-earth, still lit only by stars. The city of Tirion is noted for its white walls and terraces, the tower of High King Ingwe, Mindon Eldalieva, which also acts as a lighthouse, its silver beam acting as a beacon for ships, although you would think the light of the two trees would be enough for this purpose.

The Vanyar and the Noldor live here together for many years in fellowship, although in after years the Vanyar tire of the city and move directly onto the mountain of Manwe, where king Ingwe sits at his feet ever after. The elves love most the White Tree of Telperion, so Yavanna makes them a copy of it, identical in all respects save it does not give off its own light. This tree is a gift from Yavanna to the elves. It is planted in Mindon's courtyard, and it is named Galathilion. One of its seedlings , Celeborn, is planted in Tol Eressea (which will be told about soon), and that tree gives us the seedling which will be Nimloth, the White Tree of Numeanor, which will bring forth the White Tree of Gondor seen in the last book.

The Noldor delving in quarries of stone to build all these towers, find gems under the earth, which they give away freely to all comers. They also ,for sheer love of craftsmanship, fashion them in all kinds of forms and settings. They also create all manner of tools and devices for the art of crafting gems.

However, there's a third type of Elves which we haven't mentioned yet: The Teleri.

The Teleri miss the bus because they have a longer journey, and so are left behind when the great isle travels across the water. Osse befriends them there.

It seems that the people of Elwe also have stayed behind looking for their lord, who as mentioned is besotted with Melian. When he comes to himself he finds his people again, and they form their own kingdom in Middle-Earth. They call themselves Eglath, the forsaken people, because they feel abandoned by Elwe. Elwe has no wish to travel on to Valimar, however, because in Melian's face he beholds the light of Aman 'as in an unclouded mirror' . He himself is transformed by his association with her, appearing as a lord of the Maiar with silver hair, tallest of the children of Iluvatar.

... so they're saying he looks like Sephiroth without the wing?

Back to the Teleri. Their king Finwe remonstrates with the Valar, and with the greatest reluctance Ulmo fashions another island to bring them across the sea. Osse convinces some to remain behind , however, and these sea-elves, named the Falas take Cirdan the shipwright as their lord.

As for the rest of the Teleri, they are almost all the way there Osse puts in a word to stop and Ulmo, who thinks the idea of cooping up the elves in Valinor is a terrible idea to begin with, is easy to persuade. He anchors the island and refuses to move it again within sight of Aman. The other Valor cluck their tongues at him but , being the spineless ninnies they are, can neither convince him to move the island forward or do so themselves. This island becomes Tol Eressea, the lonely isle, and here the first flowers east of Aman grow.

Finwe the king of the Noldor is greatly grieved because the Teleri do not come, and also grieved that he will never see his friend Elwe again, unless in the halls of Mandos. And so there is tragedy and grief even here in this realm, thanks to the stubborn pig-headedness of Valar and elves, even with Melkor safely locked up.

After several years the Teleri, living in sight of Aman, decide they'd rather be there than on the island, and so Osse with great sadness teaches them the craft of ship-building, and so they arrive at long last on Aman. Here they build their own city of Aqualonde, made mostly of pearl, and from here they can travel either to Tirion and its crystal stairs or travel out on their ships, made in the likeness of swans, out onto the bays of Elvenhome and points beyond.

Now we must live them in their happily ever after -- at least as 'happy ever after' as things can be in Arda Marred, and turn back to the Noldor, whose royalty will be described in detail.

[b]Finwe[/i] is the high king of the Noldor and he has three sons.

1) Feanor , "Spirit of Fire" is his son by Miriel Serinde, who dies giving birth to him. This is an extremely rare occurrence and a great grief in the Blessed Realm, where death in childbirth is practically unheard of. He is note as being the most skilled in word and hand of the brothers, whose spirit 'burns like a flame'.

The PASSION! The GUSTO! So he's this guy ,

Feanor takes to wandering throughout the land, making friends with Aule. He marries Nerdanel and has even sons:

1A) Maedhros the tall.
1B) Maglor the mighty singer.
1C) Celegorm the fair, noted as a hunter. He is frequently in the company of Orome and, while his brother seek after the unknown, seeks rather knowledge of animals and trees from Orome. He learns much, for 'all living things that are or have been in the kingdom of Arda, save only the fell and evil creatures of Melkor, lived then in the land of Aman; and there were also many creatures that were not seen upon middle-earth,and perhaps now never shall be, since the fashion of the world was changed'.
1D) Caranthir the dark.
1E) Curufin the crafty, who is the greatest smith of the family except for Feanor himself
1F, 1G) Amrod and Amras, twin brothers.


As an aside, does this mean Celegorm encountered Dinosaurs? I wish I had a drop of artistic talent so I can sketch Celegorm and Orome hunting on T-rex back together. The lack of the 'fell beasts of Melkor' may pose a problem for a would-be hunter, since those are going to be the bulk of his prey.

These aren't all Finwe's sons, however.
2) Fingolfin is the first of his sons by Indis, a Vanyar or high-elven lady. He is the strongest of the sons, the most steadfast, and the most valiant in battle. He has two sons himself and a daughter:
2.1) Fingon, who will later be the king of the Noldor in exile.
2.2) Turgon, who will be king of Gondolin.
2.3) Aredhel, the white lady, often rides with the sons of Feanor but keeps them all firmly in the friend zone.

3) The last son of Finwe is Finarfin, also by Indus. He is noted as the fairest of the boys, and he also has sons and daughters.
3.1) Finrod, who will later receive the nickname "Lord of Caves". Because he founds Nargothrond, a city built underground in caves. So he's a lord. Of caves. So he gets the nickname "lord of caves". A shocking display of originality, I know.
3.2) Orodreth
3.3) Asgrod
3.4) [Aegnor
3.5 Galadriel . Yes, that Galadriel. "Most beautiful of all the house of Finwe, her hair was lit with gold as though it had caught in a mesh, the radiance of Laurelin". We'll be seeing more of her.

And that is where the story ends, for now. The elves of Valinor are all in Valinor, they have cities, they are digging for gems, they zip around the waters on ships, they are friends with Ulmo and Osse. I am sure this is a world with no flaws whatsoever and now we can close the book on this happy-ever-after ...

... what's that you say? We're less than a third into the book? Well, I assume we'll see next chapter how it all goes pear-shaped. See you then!

"Father(s) of [insert race here] "usually seems more figurative than literal in the Silmarillion, meaning more "first members" than "actual biological father". See the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, for example.

Which raises a question: Where are the dwarven mothers? It seems clear dwarves reproduce the same way all other mammals do, but we don't see any mention of where they came from? Did Iluvatar make them? Are some of the dwarven 'Fathers' actually women? Or did Aule make women as well as men, but it never made it into the story?

Also relevant: Gandalf's power was augmented by Narya (one of the Three Rings of the Elves). That let's him do more - I suspect much of what we see him doing "on screen" in the books is aided by his Ring. Meaning that what he could do as a Maiar was even more limited that what we see him doing. Saruman, for example, does even less than Gandalf directly (and possibly even had his own Ring to boost his power).

The Istari were limited in power when sent into Middle-Earth, but that doesn't mean they didn't have power originally. Gandalf tells us Sauron can 'torture or destroy the very hills', which implies this is at least one of the powers of SOME Maia. Gandalf and his colleagues were sent into Middle-Earth to wage a proxy war, not to confront Sauron directly, so they weren't allowed to use their full power as Maiar. Saruman seems to have thrown those rules aside, so it implies that it's more than won't and more along the lines of can't. I think laying aside much of their power as Maia was part and parcel of taking on the job of Istari. But, yes,I think Gandalf and Saruman in their original forms had power of the same order as Saurons, and if powers capable of destroying hills went to full war it wouldn't be at all healthy for any squishy meatbags within a hundred kilometers.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grim Portent]

Which raises a question: Where are the dwarven mothers? It seems clear dwarves reproduce the same way all other mammals do, but we don't see any mention of where they came from? Did Iluvatar make them? Are some of the dwarven 'Fathers' actually women? Or did Aule make women as well as men, but it never made it into the story?

My assumption would be that the Fathers of the dwarves are just their first kings, not the entirety of their race at the time of it's creation. The others, presumaby made by Eru or by Aule after being given the go-ahead from Eru, would number in the tens of thousands at least and would form the bulk of their race, but would defer to the leadership of the seven fathers who serve as essentially god given monarchs.

The Istari were limited in power when sent into Middle-Earth, but that doesn't mean they didn't have power originally. Gandalf tells us Sauron can 'torture or destroy the very hills', which implies this is at least one of the powers of SOME Maia. Gandalf and his colleagues were sent into Middle-Earth to wage a proxy war, not to confront Sauron directly, so they weren't allowed to use their full power as Maiar. Saruman seems to have thrown those rules aside, so it implies that it's more than won't and more along the lines of can't. I think laying aside much of their power as Maia was part and parcel of taking on the job of Istari. But, yes,I think Gandalf and Saruman in their original forms had power of the same order as Saurons, and if powers capable of destroying hills went to full war it wouldn't be at all healthy for any squishy meatbags within a hundred kilometers.

The Maiar were essentially just lesser Valar when we get down to it, with the same duties but on a smaller scale. While the Valar created mountain ranges, shaped oceans, orchestrated vast forests and great beasts, the Maiar scultped hills and dells, carved out lakes and rivers, fashioned forest clearings and small animals. They're underlings, comparable to apprentices working under a master or masters. The Valar are masters of the craft of lesser creation,* the maiar are students of lesser skill and power working on smaller projects.

The conflict between Morgoth and the Valar ultimately sank an entire continent into the sea, a battle between two maiar in their true form using their full range of powers rather than just slugging it out, especially in the early days, would probably be able to wipe out a modestly sized kingdom at least.

That said, Sauron got beaten up by a magic dog, so I think I'd be betting in favour of basically any other member of the Ainur in a cagefight.

*As opposed to Creation, which is Illuvatar's shtick. And perhaps the reason the Valar aren't able to Create is because they specialise.

[Fyraltari]

1) Feanor , "Spirit of Fire" is his son by Miriel Serinde, who dies giving birth to him. This is an extremely rare occurrence and a great grief in the Blessed Realm, where death in childbirth is practically unheard of. He is note as being the most skilled in word and hand of the brothers, whose spirit 'burns like a flame'.

The PASSION! The GUSTO! So he's this guy

Italian bisexual* Fëanor is not an image I had in my mind. Thank you.

3.1) Finrod, who will later receive the nickname "Lord of Caves". Because he founds Nargothrond, a city built underground in caves. So he's a lord. Of caves. So he gets the nickname "lord of caves". A shocking display of originality, I know.

Well, it's descriptive and that does differentiate him from all the other Eldar Lords of the time, so...

Which raises a question: Where are the dwarven mothers? It seems clear dwarves reproduce the same way all other mammals do, but we don't see any mention of where they came from? Did Iluvatar make them? Are some of the dwarven 'Fathers' actually women? Or did Aule make women as well as men, but it never made it into the story?

I think the simplest explanation is that the Seven Fathers were just the first batch and others were made alongside them who would collectively be the ancestors of the dwarven people. Otherwise, that'd leave Durin, the odd one out of the Seven father, to reproduce by parthogenesis or something. The real question however, is at which point did the male births became twice as numerous as the female births (as describe in the Appendices of LotR) because that's not sustainable for any population. Or were there originally sextillions of dwarves?

Gandalf tells us Sauron can 'torture or destroy the very hills'

That sounds like a quarry to me.

My assumption would be that the Fathers of the dwarves are just their first kings, not the entirety of their race at the time of it's creation. The others, presumaby made by Eru or by Aule after being given the go-ahead from Eru, would number in the tens of thousands at least and would form the bulk of their race, but would defer to the leadership of the seven fathers who serve as essentially god given monarchs.

Agreed.

That said, Sauron got beaten up by a magic dog, so I think I'd be betting in favour of basically any other member of the Ainur in a cagefight.

To be fair he'd just been hit by the magic sleep cloak, so he wasn't at the top of his game. But yeah, as far as Ainur go, he's more the geek than the jock.

*I don't know the first thing about this game, but one of the guy's attacks is called "swings both ways".

[pendell]

Italian bisexual* Fëanor is not an image I had in my mind. Thank you.

I live to serve.

*I don't know the first thing about this game, but one of the guy's attacks is called "swings both ways".

The game in question is Dragon Quest 8 , and I own the older PS2 version of it where Morrie is an NPC. They made him a playable character in the DS version. And there are two things I want the reader to know: 1) This is one of the best JRPGs of all time, and is worth your time to play through once. 2) Morrie is all about the PASSION, the GUSTO. It's in practically every sentence when he's on screen and he's quite a large ham. His ravenous appetite for the opposite sex is obvious , and it doesn't surprise me at all if his appetite is, well, unlimited in that respect.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[J-H]

With that chapter, I think we've met most of the important named elves who will be recurring characters.

If I recall correctly, fea means "spirit" so Feanor probably means firey spirit or something similar.

[Seppl]

Any opinion on the names of the elven lords? I know there is historic precedent but I still was annoyed by the choice to have so many similar names in an already quite convoluted work of literature. Especially as we see most of these characters only two or three times over the span of the book, and they get called by completely different nicknames half of the time. It felt necessary to always have a glossary and a map handy if you wanted to know, who a character is. Otherwise, every other person we meet will be "just another one of the Fin-elves".

And we have not even met the humans yet, where multiple generations can have very similar names to indicate shared clanship and ancestry.

Of course, the Silmarillion was never intended to be read like a novel, but still…

[InvisibleBison]

Any opinion on the names of the elven lords?

The similarity of their names never really bothered me. I never paid all that much attention to the enumeration of the elven royalty, so when the text got to the more dramatic sections I essentially was introduced to the various elf-lords as they showed up.

[Sapphire Guard]

My thought is that Glaurung is the first dragon ever used in battle, but if wyrms are his progenitors that would mean Morgoth had a large number of wyrms he wasn't using in battle earlier for... reasons?

This is in the context of the siege of Angband, he wouldn't want to jump the gun too early and tip his hand until he had perfected things. You don't want to introduce your superweapon too early and give your enemies a chance to prepare for it.

[Fyraltari]

This is in the context of the siege of Angband, he wouldn't want to jump the gun too early and tip his hand until he had perfected things. You don't want to introduce your superweapon too early and give your enemies a chance to prepare for it.

If memory serves, that's exactly what Glaurung did.

[Sapphire Guard]

Correct, but the same logic does explain why Morgoth may not have used previous wyrms if he had them.

[Grim Portent]

I'm not so sure, even the least of the dragons is something that there was never really a good response to. Nigh invulnerable, able to bewitch people with their voices, with teeth and claws that could pierce almost any armour and the bulk to crush almost anything under them. The only weak spot is their belly, and that's not something easy to hit unless you find a convenient hole to hide in as they pass above you, especially if there's more than one or if they come with allies.

What could the Noldor really do about wyrms or drakes in open battle? They became a force that only the greatest heroes could face, with armies being routed and cities lain to waste.

[pendell]

I'm not so sure, even the least of the dragons is something that there was never really a good response to. Nigh invulnerable, able to bewitch people with their voices, with teeth and claws that could pierce almost any armour and the bulk to crush almost anything under them. The only weak spot is their belly, and that's not something easy to hit unless you find a convenient hole to hide in as they pass above you, especially if there's more than one or if they come with allies.

Reading it this way, I think you've described Tolkien's inspiration for the dragon as well. At least, I'm going to make an argument for this .

Behold!



-- Breathes fire? Check.
-- Invulnerable? To small arms fire, check.
-- Bulk to crush anything under them? Ever seen what happens when a <1 ton car collides with a 40 tons of armoured vehicle? Check. most definitely.
-- Vulnerable on the belly? Check. Tanks aren't armored nearly as heavily on their underbellies as they are on the front. The sides and top are weak also, but a Tommy in the trenches isn't going to have one of those options. You'll crouch down in your trench and let it go over you. Maybe throw molotov cocktails at it once it's passed over.


Reading up, one suicidal way to fight a tank would be to use a string to slide a mine under the vehicle where it's weak.

Between this and what I suspect inspired the "screeching nazguls, stooping for the kill" , there's an awful lot of modern warfare in this "fantasy" novel. I wonder if Tolkien realized it, or it was unconscious?

ETA: Thinking about it, it seems like the winged dragons were a design mistake on Melkor's part.
Dragons still have weak armour and are vulnerable underneath. Smaug was killed with one arrow striking an unarmoured spot. Well, if you're airborne , what side of the dragon is most exposed to arrow fire? Tolkien wrote it differently, but I foresee all kinds of trouble with this.

-- Dragons fly over formations of armed soldiers
-- Armed soldiers send up clouds of arrows
-- winged dragons crash to the ground as if it were rain.

Smaug corrected this problem, but in the first age dragons weren't bathing in gems to compensate for this weakness. It'd be like sending a tank into battle with the rear armored rather than the front.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

Reading it this way, I think you've described Tolkien's inspiration for the dragon as well. At least, I'm going to make an argument for this .

Behold!



-- Breathes fire? Check.
-- Invulnerable? To small arms fire, check.
-- Bulk to crush anything under them? Ever seen what happens when a <1 ton car collides with a 40 tons of armoured vehicle? Check. most definitely.
-- Vulnerable on the belly? Check. Tanks aren't armored nearly as heavily on their underbellies as they are on the front. The sides and top are weak also, but a Tommy in the trenches isn't going to have one of those options. You'll crouch down in your trench and let it go over you. Maybe throw molotov cocktails at it once it's passed over.

If you're in the trenches and see one of these things come at you, better believe you're going to crouch down and let it pass over. Reading up, one suicidal way to fight a tank would be to use a string to slide a mine under the vehicle where it's weak.

Between this and what I suspect inspired the "screeching nazguls, stooping for the kill" , there's an awful lot of modern warfare in this "fantasy" novel. I wonder if Tolkien realized it, or it was unconscious?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Oh he definitely realized it.

Melko gathered around him all his most skilled smiths and sorcerers, and out of iron and flame, they crafted an army of monsters the like of which was only seen in this time and will never be seen again until the Great End. Some were altogether made of iron so skillfully bound that they could flow like slow rivers of metal or coil around and above any obstacles they would face, and these were filled in their deep insides by the foulest of Orcs armed with cimitars and lances.

That's some kind of armoured troop transport. It's not even subtle.

Edit: Also I don't have a source, but apparently the dead Marshes were inspired by corpses that ended up underwater when it rained just after a battle he was part of?

[Grim Portent]

I think an early draft had the siege of Minas Tirith involve actual tanks driven by orcs shooting the gate down in place of the sorcerous ram Ghrond.

During his more overtly war influenced periods the orcs were explicitly supposed to represent the evil, destructive and cunning nature of men that was brought to light by WW1. The Hobbit outright states that goblins/orcs go on to invent much of the more ingenious and destructive weapons of war, implicitly bombs, guns, chemical weapons, tanks, barbed wire, landmines and so on. The weapons of modern industrial war, whose horrors were fresh and clear to Tolkien, and contributed in large part to his distate for industrialism in general.

[Talakeal]

Any opinion on the names of the elven lords? I know there is historic precedent but I still was annoyed by the choice to have so many similar names in an already quite convoluted work of literature. Especially as we see most of these characters only two or three times over the span of the book, and they get called by completely different nicknames half of the time. It felt necessary to always have a glossary and a map handy if you wanted to know, who a character is. Otherwise, every other person we meet will be "just another one of the Fin-elves".

And we have not even met the humans yet, where multiple generations can have very similar names to indicate shared clanship and ancestry.

Of course, the Silmarillion was never intended to be read like a novel, but still…

Names that either rhyme or start with the same sound are pretty much ubiquitous throughout all of Tolkien’s middle earth stories.

[Corvus]

It is rather kind of historical too. You just have to look at how nobility recycles names and even call their kids similar names. (I'm looking at you Aethelwulf, with your sons called Aethelstan, Aethelbald, Aethelberht, Aethelred and Alfred and daughter Aethelswith. And Alfred went on to have sons called Edward and Aethelweard and daughters called Aethelflaed (who married an Aethelred), Aethelgifu and Aelfthryth.)

In comparison, the elven family tree is easy to follow.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

It is rather kind of historical too. You just have to look at how nobility recycles names and even call their kids similar names. (I'm looking at you Aethelwulf, with your sons called Aethelstan, Aethelbald, Aethelberht, Aethelred and Alfred and daughter Aethelswith. And Alfred went on to have sons called Edward and Aethelweard and daughters called Aethelflaed (who married an Aethelred), Aethelgifu and Aelfthryth.)

In comparison, the elven family tree is easy to follow.

"Aethel-" being "noble" and "aelf-" (or "alf-") being "elf", in the sense of "wise". Bit full of themselves, the Saxons.

It's not just historical, there are plenty of modern examples - how do you think all those people ended up with "Junior" or "III" after their names?

Me too: I'm Edward, son of Edmund, son of Edward.

[pendell]

Ready for the next chapter everyone?

Of Feanor and the unchaining of Melkor
Middle--Earths Leonardo Da Vinci strides onto the stage; Melkor gets paroled

I'm sure that paroling Melkor is a flawless plan witn no downsides whatever. Shall we?

Spoiler

Show

So here we are in Valinor; the three high-elven peoples are all living in the land in bliss. During this time, Rumil of the Noldor invents the first written language system and the first alphabet. Which is a bit of an anachronism, since writing predates alphabets by a significant degree ;the first alphabets were created in Egypt as a kind of shorthand to replace the otherwise unwieldy hieroglyphic writing system, which was fine for carving on tombs but not so good for bills of sale or accounting statements. Even so, the Noldor fast-forward to writing and alphabets just as they bypass the Stone and Bronze ages to go directly to the Iron Age.

Finwe, the king of the Noldor, and his wife Miriel have their first son. They name him Curufinwe (Curu = "Skilled", Finwe = Father's name") but his mother almost immediately nicknames him Feanor , "Spirit of Fire", and the name sticks. He won't be remembered by his given name more than a hand ful of times in the book from this point on.

It is a difficult and troublesome birth. When it is over, Miriel tells her husband "Never again shall I bear child, for strength that would have nourished many has gone forth into Feanor".

She worsens after this and grows progressively weaker. Aman is a land of healing, but she's not getting better. Finwe appeals for help to the Valar and she is brought to the land of Lorien , the Valinor equivalent of a hospital. But she slips further away and eventually her spirit 'departs, leaving her body unwithered' . That sounds suspiciously like a coma from which she cannot be awakened. Finwe comes often to her bedside in Lorien and calls out to her by all the names she has, but without response. After a time -- hundreds of years perhaps -- he finally stops coming.

It's hard to understand just how horrifying this is in Valinor. Death in childbirth is a fact of life for humans but it is unheard of in the blessed realm, and Finwe is the only one in the entire realm who has experienced this tragedy. No one else can comfort or sympathize with him; none of them have ever experienced this, and for the most part death itself is out of their experience as well. So all the sorrow of Middle-Earth descends on Finwe alone in the blessed realm.

In his grief he showers his son with love , and this does not turn out to Feanor's benefit. He grows into a willful, headstrong man. "Few changed his course by council, none by force."

Yet for all that he is brilliant and performs works of invention rivalling those of Da Vinci - more so, because he does not have centuries of ancient civilizations and writings to draw upon. Among these inventions:

-- A better alphabet, the Feanorian letters, which remain in use among the elves ever after. The writing on the door of Moria and the runes on the One Ring both use this alphabet, though the One Ring's inscription is written in Black Speech, which shares an alphabet with Sindarin (the Elvish language of Middle Earth) even though otherwise markedly different, just as English and German are different languages even though they both use Latin alphabet.

-- Magnifying lenses. "White and colorless gems" which, when exposed to starlight, shine brighter than Helluin, obviously magnifying and concentrating the light passing through.
-- A variation on these crystals allow seeing things far away. But of course. If you can magnify light you can magnify images as well. So Feanor is an inventor of optics as well as gems.

He marries Nerdanel the daughter of Mahtan, who is himself one of the greatest smiths the Noldor have, and from Mahtan Feanor learns smithcraft to rival his skill with crystals and letters. Nerdanel is noted as being just as stubborn as Feanor -- their rows must be legendary! Even so, she is "more patient than Feanor, desiring to understand minds rather than to master them". At first she is able to talk him down when his temper gets the better of him, but his later deeds lead to an irreparable breach between them. Divorce is unheard of among the elves but that doesn't mean married couple have to live under the same roof -- eventually, Feanor moves out and she refuses to go with him, and that is the effective end of their relationship, even if they technically remain married.

In the course of time Finwe marries again; a Vanyar named Indus, who is close kin to King Ingwe of the Light Elves. Again, re-marriage is as unknown among the Noldor as death is, and there is friction within the house. Feanor doesn't like his stepmother at all, and has no use for his half-siblings by her. This is a seed of irritation which will bear dark fruit in times to come.

At this point the author asks whether Feanor would have not been a different person and tragedy would have been averted if Finwe had only not remarried. I say: Nonsense. No Indus means no son Finarfin, and no Finarfin means no Galadriel. I can only say : sod that for a game of soldiers . I'm sure Gimli would agree. Middle-Earth would be immeasurably poorer for their absence, and if Feanor wants to be a self-centered **** about it, that's on him.

Meanwhile.. we saw in the last chapter that Melkor had been locked up in Mandos until "three ages have passed", and that time has now elapsed. Accordingly , Mandos brings Melkor forth to Manwe's judgement council for what is in essence a parole hearing.

Melkor's personality and character haven't been improved at all by his long sojourn, and he hates and envies the elves at their peace, still more since their peace was bought at the price of his ambitions. But for all his vices he does have a virtue: Patience. And if he is Proud as Lucifer he's still willing to undergo humiliation if that means he can be more proud later -- "for the greater you", as Belkar might say.

So he humbles himself and smooths his tongue and abases himself most piteously at Manwe's feet, begging plaintively, promising good behavior if only he could be the least of peoples in Valinor.

Nienna sponsors him in this request. Mandos, his jailer, doesn't say a word either to support his claim or to deny it. He knows what is to come, but apparently believes himself powerless to prevent it. Besides which, Manwe doesn't explicitly ask his opinion, which seems strange; Manwe didn't see any problem with consulting him over the matter of whether to go to war for the sake of the elves or not. Does Manwe only seek counsel when it's story-convenient for him to do so?

Manwe is moved by Melkor's plea, and at first allows him to live in the city under house arrest, close observation of the other Valar. The books tells us Manwe was deceived, for he had an unnecessary sympathy for Melkor, who was in a sense his brother in the thought of Illuvatar -- they had originally been close as siblings, thinking along the same lines and knowing each other intimately.

But Manwe doesn't know his brother any longer. "Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it ... he saw not into the darkness of Melkor's heart ,and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever."

It's a case of projection. Manwe, out of misguided empathy, is projecting his own thoughts and desires on Melkor. The problem is, he doesn't understand Melkor at all . With the result that his would-be wish to do unto others as he would unto himself is utterly misguided.

Tulkas and Ulmo don't believe for a minute in Melkor's "repentence", no more than Sam did of Gollum in Return of the King. But they're not in charge, so they play along, waiting their moment, just as Sam did with Gollum, since Frodo insisted on a sympathy which almost got him killed.

This is also, by the way, why I was so avid for the death penalty as a child. Reading stories like this, it seemed like the villains were always getting out of prison to cause even more untold harm -- in the DC Universe, Arkham asylum might as well have a revolving door installed. So my child's brain leaped to the conclusion that the only safe prison was the one no one could escape from :Death. And I applied this comics lesson to the real world.

later in life, of course, I found that comic artists can bring people back from the dead as well as from prison, but that was a long time in realizing.

Back to Melkor. He's on parole, but being both intelligent and patient he is on his absolute best behavior. He does no harm to anyone and is of great benefit to anyone who seeks his counsel -- being the first and most powerful of the Vala he has great wisdom AND skill in any endeavor, and is soon in great demand by all. Feanor, however, will have nothing to do with him. This is both for the good reason that Feanor doesn't trust him at all, but also for the bad reason that Feanor is both proud and willful, refusing to seek counsel from anyone for any reason. Only Nerdanel, his wife, has any hope of getting him to listen.

Melkor's good behavior over who knows how many centuries results in his unconditional release -- he is now completely free, for Manwe deems him "cured" of evil.

Manwe will soon have cause to regret that mistake. Melkor starts out by mixing in, along with genuinely good counsel, lies and ideas which sound good on the surface but set up a train of thought leading to darker areas. It is into Noldor ears that these lies, half-truths, and sophistries most readily drop. The Vanyar are content on the mountain of Manwe, neither seeking knowledge nor anything else, and so they aren't interested in anything Melkor has to say. The Teleri are of no interest to Melkor, as he considers them weak and unworthy tools for his designs. But the Noldor, ever-curious and ever-seeking, are constantly pushing for new frontiers and new knowledge, and it is this thirst for the unknown which Melkor uses as bait to get them to listen to his words -- words that will bring terrible consequences in succeeding chapters.

And that is where we close this one; still a beautiful sunny day in Valinor, but cloudy with a chance of apocalypse on the morrow.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grim Portent]

Imagine how much suffering could have been avoided if Tulkas was the lord of the Valar instead of Manwe.

[Sapphire Guard]

How long is an age? Hard to date with no sun yet.

[Grim Portent]

How long is an age? Hard to date with no sun yet.

Approximately the same time as exists between ordering food and having it brought to your table.

[pendell]

What does time mean to creatures who don't age and never die? However, we have three ages whose times are recorde:

-- The second age, according to the ROTK appendices, lasted three thousand years.
-- The third age, likewise, lasted three thousand years, same source.

At this time, a "day" would have been the time for one full cycle of the tree's light -- from gold tree noon to silver tree noon and back. In "the beginning of days", this is reckoned as a twelve hour cycle. No telling how this relates to the seasons of the year, because this Arda doesn't revolve around a sun.

I think a few thousand years apiece would not be a bad guess -- but to ageless creatures it still isn't that long a time.

I'm not convinced Tulkas would have been a better chief valar than Manwe because Tulkas was what people in my generation would call a 'bonehead'. They tell us out right he's a terrible counselor, while Manwe is sort of a light side version of Melkor, and therefore supposed to be a lot smarter and wiser.

Not much of this wisdom is on display in this chapter, however. Now, if you were to say it would have been better if Manwe had listened to Tulkas AND Ulmo AND Orome AND Feanor and, perhaps, asked Mandos directly for his opinion, then I'd say you were on the mark. Just because Tulkas wins the lottery one time doesn't mean we should give him all our money.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Corvus]

Imagine how much suffering could have been avoided if Tulkas was the lord of the Valar instead of Manwe.

Tulkas strikes me as the type who would get easily bored with leadership. He seems more of an in the moment kind of guy.

Ulmo would have done a better job.