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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    I think it's pretty clear, from Ainulindale, that Eru is a predestination sort of god. They created everything and set everything in motion, knowing how everything will work out in the end. It is very clear that Morgoth, and evil, are a part of the plan, because it seems the conflict is what is going to create the greatest beauty and good in the end. Manwe is the lead Valar because he is best able to perceive the plan of Eru, and even he doesn't get to see everything. I don't get the idea that Eru talks to anyone, not even the Valar, nor intervenes in anything; his "intervention" in creation was completed at the beginning, when he planned it to all work out for the best in the end (the end we are given a preview of in Ainulindale).

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudd View Post
    I think it's pretty clear, from Ainulindale, that Eru is a predestination sort of god. They created everything and set everything in motion, knowing how everything will work out in the end. It is very clear that Morgoth, and evil, are a part of the plan, because it seems the conflict is what is going to create the greatest beauty and good in the end. Manwe is the lead Valar because he is best able to perceive the plan of Eru, and even he doesn't get to see everything. I don't get the idea that Eru talks to anyone, not even the Valar, nor intervenes in anything; his "intervention" in creation was completed at the beginning, when he planned it to all work out for the best in the end (the end we are given a preview of in Ainulindale).
    Not so; In the Akallabeth Eru intervenes directly in the affairs of the world. I have to wonder to what extent the scale of the disaster is his way of saying "work it out amongst yourselves, next time. If *I* have to get involved, you won't like it."

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    What Eru deems worthy of his intervention is unspecified, it happens so rarely and ranges from basically nothing to exterminating more or less an entire race. His motivations come across as more than a little psychopathic to be blunt.

    The idea with the Akallabeth is that the Valar were forbidden from harming humans (and maybe elves, but that's less clear) or otherwise excercising their powers over them. To do so would be to embrace the same path as Morgoth, in that it would be defiance of the will of God, so instead they call out to papa Illuvatar to intervene and he commits genocide and changes the shape of the world. In theory all other situations could have been resolved entirely by the power of the Valar or mortals.

    Morgoth meanwhile gets to murder, torture and defile all he wants with no direct censure, because Eru thinks the tears of war orphans make the rest of creation better somehow. Not the tears of the Valar and their direct subjects though, they get to live in an isolated paradise and only suffer by proxy, and are often in fact ignorant of the suffering of others.
    Last edited by Grim Portent; 2022-08-03 at 04:16 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    My sense regarding the siege of Angband is that 'fortress' is being used in the sense of 'geographical fortress,' which is sometimes applied to whole, usually mountainous regions. I believe Tolkien may have drawn inspiration from the region of Snowdownia in Wales, which was famously 'besieged' by Edward I, and subsequently surrounded by the some of the world's most awesome castles. In this case the former would represent Morgoth's holdings in Dor Daedeloth, while the later would represent the various elven fortress kingdoms that surrounded it.

    So Angband, the region, should be able to support some level of agricultural production and presumably mining & timbering, since the orcs make weapons and armor. As to Morgoth's seeming ability to out produce the many elven kingdoms surrounding him despite occupying what is comparatively a wasteland, I think there two major factors. The first is population density. Beleriand is not heavily settled, as many stories refer to characters wandering vast distances in the wilderness and encountering basically no one. There's nowhere on the continent that is anywhere near the land's carrying capacity (at whatever agricultural technology combo you wish to attribute to the elves) except in Angband, where you better believe Morgoth's got the orcs building terraces all the way up to the summits of those mountains and every last drop of water that runs off the fortress rooves is collected for use. The second is environmental degredation. The elves (and later the Hobbits) practice a sort of idealized sustainable pastoral (in the theatrical sense) lifestyle that can endure over truly epic lengths of time without serious environmental consequences. Morgoth, one imagines, is nowhere near as respectful of Eru's creation and presumably the land with Angband becomes more and more degraded and toxic over time, but this does temporarily allow for vastly increased output.

    We can also, considering this, imagine why the elves thought their siege would eventually bear success. The land itself would eventually perish from Morgoth using it beyond capacity and even orcs would no longer be able to survive there. This might take centuries, but the elves are immortal and all of their leaders have, at this point, lived for thousands of years, so a few hundred is no big deal.
    I don't want to let this pass; this is a very cool bit of writing and now I've learned something about the geography and history of Wales; I've heard of the concept of 'geographical fortress', which makes a great deal of sense in this context, so I'm adding it to my personal head-canon. Thanks!

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2022-08-03 at 04:55 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Chapter 14: Of Beleriand and its realms
    In which we are subjected to a chapter of geography lessons

    and
    Chapter 15: Of the Noldor in Beleriand
    Because I want to see some plot advancement in this episode

    We're going to need the map again.
    Spoiler: Map
    Show




    Spoiler: Geography Textbook ahoy!
    Show

    MELKOR'S REALM : Start middle-top of the map. Angband is technically off the map but just north of Ard-Galen. It's part of the outer defense network of Utumno, Morgoth's original main fortress. As a defense against the Valar, he reared two mountain ranges adjoining on the arctic regions as fences, and in the pass between them he put the underground fortress of Angband. It was not thoroughly cleaned out by the Valar in their last assault becuase they needed to keep up the tempo of the offensive against Utumno. So the fortress is still useable, and there were balrogs hiding out in vaults. Morgoth now beings tunnelling and rebuilding the fortress; the spoil of the fortress is piled on top of the dungeon and is used to make the peaks of Thangorodrim. He calls up a wind to blow the pollution and smog of his underground fortress to the elves as a gigantic upraised middle finger, but so long as the siege endures green things grow even in front of the gates of this dreadful fortress, which our author calls 'hell'.

    This does present a problem for the 'geographic fortress' theory , because it sounds like the land north of angband is arctic waste, unsuitable for farming or for timber.

    FINGOLFIN/FINGON: To the west of Angband, over the mountain range , is the land of Hithlum, "land of mist", centered around lake Mithrim. It has cold winters and is always cool, but for all that is a fair land, much like Scandinavia. This territory is ruled by Fingolfin and his son Fingon as High King of the Noldor, meaning that he is first among equals among the kings of the Noldor elves. They have cavalry; it seems that the sons of Feanor brought over a small number of horses with the ships when they crossed over to middle earth, and Maedhros has given many of these to Fingolfin as an apology for abandoning them. It cannot begin to pay for the losses the other elves suffered but , hey, Maedhros is at least trying , so credit there. From this small number the elves breed them in large numbers until they have a large cavalry force, with which they patrol Ard-Galen, right up to the gates of Angband.

    This also explains how the elves were able to ambush that southern army in the second great battle; they must have used mounted scouts to see the orcs in motion, or perhaps they used the seeing gems which Feanor made. From there they must have scraped up a cavalry force to make a forced march and ambush the orcish army. So that's one puzzle explained.

    I wonder if Shadowfax is descended from the horses that came from Valinor with the Noldor?

    The elves of Fingolfin are the bitterest foes of Morgoth, and those Morgoth's soldiers most fear.


    TURGON: South of Hithlum is the region of Nevrast, where Turgon rules for a time, though he will later migrate to the hidden city of Gondolin, in the eastern mountain range. This is a milder land watered by wet winds from the sea. Further, since it is encompassed by hills or mountain ranges, it is sheltered from the winds of Hithlum. Ulmo and Osse come frequently to the coasts about Mount Taras in the southwest, and that is where the bulk of the people live. This also explains why Turgon is in such close contact with Ulmo.

    FINROD: East of Nevrast and south of the plain of Ardgalen is a great highland, sixty leagues wide, called Dorthonian. This is the domain of Finrod "Felagund" (Cave-dweller") The northern section is ruled by his brothers, Angrod and Aegnor, who are Finrod's vassals though they are all sons of Finarfin together, who stayed in Aman. Finrod rules from the underground fortress of Nargothrond, as discussed in the last chapter.

    The river Sirion flows down from the pass between the mountains here. Of note is an island in the middle of the river, Tol Sirion ("Isle of Sirion") on which Finrod has built a watchtower, Minas Tirith ("Tower of Guard"). He holds all this region, the largest kingdom of Beleriand, save the southwest corner which is held by Cirdan the Shipwright, who rules the harbors there, and will continue to do so right down to Return of the King.

    They build a watchtower overlooking the sea approaches but this proves unnecessary; Ulmo and Osse rule the waves, and because of this Morgoth isn't about to send any kind of large naval force into their hands. His servants avoid the water because the Powers of the Water hate them, and they will not travel by sea unless in dire need.

    The elves also explore the Isle of Balar in the view of converting it into a sanctuary should things go wrong on the mainland, but nothing ever comes of it.

    THINGOL: Doriath, Thingol's domain, is due east of Finrod's kingdom. It is a guarded realm protected by the Girdle of Melian, which is never opened. The green elves dwell east of here in the land of Ossiriand.

    To the north of Thingol's realm is Ered Gorgoroth, "Mountains of Terror", so called because Ungoliant and her children live here. They're always delighted to have elves over for lunch, but the delight is not mutual. Consequently , the region of Nan Dungortheb between the mountains and the Girdle of Melian is a no-elves-land where few will willingly travel; it doesn't help that the waters which flow down from the mountains are poisonous, causing madness and despair in any who drink of it.

    FEANOR'S SONS: Due east of the mountains of Dorthonian is a region of low hills , thereby the easiest avenue of attack from Angband. This region is held by Maedhros , which he rules from the fortress of Himring the ever-cold. Celegorm and Curufin, his brothers, hold the region to the south and east of here. Maglor holds the region to the east of Maedhro's holdings between the branches of the river Gelion. There is a spot here where there aren't any hills at all, a veritable highway for Morgoth's people. Dwarvish strongholds adjoin Caranthir's holdings.

    Amrod and Amras hold the area to the south of here, which is a wild but beautiful area, something of a resort for the other Noldor who come here on holiday.




    Spoiler: Chapter 15
    Show

    Turgon, as has been told, received dreams from Ulmo and so has surveyed a hidden valley into which he will build a new city as redoubt against the darkness. It takes fifty two years to build this city in utmost secrecy, Elvish sentinels and the power of Ulmo working in the water to keep away the curious, both spies of Morgoth and fellow elves. When at last it is ready Turgon and his people migrate en masse. Just as they are about to leave, Ulmo appears to Turgon with a warning: Not to love this new kingdom too much because ultimately nothing can stand against Morgoth and they are still reliant on the Valar to deliver them. The curse will be their undoing, and Ulmo has no power to revoke it. Thus, he warns Turgon that he will send a messenger when the time is ripe to flee. So that the elves will know the messenger, Ulmo tells them to leave arms and armour in a particular hidden place. When the messenger comes, he will bear these tokens and so they will know he is truly sent by the Lord of Waters. Ulmo gives precise tailor's measurements for these arms and equipment.

    It is clear that Ulmo foresees all that is going to happen, and because of this I feel a bit better toward the Valar; it seems that their actions are guided by knowledge of the future, and so perhaps they aren't quite as useless as they seem. Though even our author will acknowledge they made some pretty dreadful mistakes, chief among them bringing the elves out of Middle-Earth in the first place.

    Meanwhile Galadriel is staying with Melian in Doriath. Melian is uncomfortable with what she observes, putting two and two together, until she asks Galadriel outright whether they are exiles from Valinor, for it is plain that the shadow of the Valar's wrath lies on them.

    Galadriel confirms that her guesses are close, save that the Noldor were not driven from Aman but came of their own will, in order to take back from Morgoth the Silmarils which he stole from them. That , in fact, they have an oath to do so and it was against the Valar's will that they came. Hence the shadow.

    Melian notes Galadriel isn't telling everything. Galadriel acknowledges this , but states firmly it's not her place to say more.

    Melian and Thingol discuss; Thingol isn't at all happy with the sons of Feanor, of whom he hears "little to my pleasure", but they are enemies of Morgoth so it'll do. So long as Morgoth holds the silmarils that is where their enmity will be directed, and if they fight Morgoth that'll take some of the load off Thingol. He accepts them as allies, though Melian warns that "their counsels and their swords will have two edges".

    We can all see where this is going, don't we? Evil can use the concealed truth just as readily as the lie direct.

    Morgoth puts his agents to work, spreading rumors of the Kinslaying and the terrible events in Aman. Of course, being evil his agents deliberately magnify the events until the Noldor are portrayed as little more than bloodthirsty murderers. Thingol gets wind of this, and confronts two of the Noldor, Finarfin's kin Finrod and Angrod, as they are his guests, with the charges that they have murdered the Teleri, Thingol's kin, and have the temerity to sit at his table red-handed.

    Finrod says nothing, but Angrod has recently endured some pretty dreadful insults from Curufin, who essentially called him a bastard in front of the entire Elvish people, and he's not going to sit here and take the blame for the actions of the sons of Feanor. So he tells the full story; of the kinslaying and their abandonment to journey across the Grinding Ice. He concludes by asking why they should be blamed for the kinslaying , in which they had no part. They have suffered far worse woe at the hands of Feanor than Thingol has.

    Melian notes that, even so, the shadow of Mandos lies on them as well.

    Thingol thinks for a minute, then kicks them out of his house. He tells them they can come back later, after his mood is cooled, but henceforth he will forbid the use of the Noldor tongue throughout his lands and to all his people, as it is the language of kinslayers. A linguist's revenge; killing an entire language and hastening the day when Sindarin will be the Common Speech of the west.

    Finrod leaves to take up his residence in his own newly built palace at Nargothrond. He is unmarried. Galadriel asks him why this is. There are two reasons. The first he gives is foresight: His kingdom shall not endure, therefore no need of a son to inherit it. The other , unspoken, is that his one True Love is Amarie, a woman of the Vanyar, who stayed in Aman and did not come with him into exile.

    So the pieces are moved into place; But there are still some preparatory moves needed, as will be seen in the next chapter.


    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2022-08-06 at 06:41 PM.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

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  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    save the southwest corner which is held by Cirdan the Shipwright, who rules the harbors there, and will continue to do so right down to Return of the King.

    Thingol thinks for a minute, then kicks them out of his house. He tells them they can come back later, after his mood is cooled, but henceforth he will forbid the use of the Noldor tongue throughout his lands and to all his people, as it is the language of kinslayers.
    Well, not quite, since that part of Beleriand is long drowned by the time of LOTR--the part where Cirdan still lives then is actually what used to be Ossiriand, right up against the Blue Mountains.

    As for the second part, Thingol's attitude here is pretty much fair enough--his guests might not have outright lied but they certainly hid the truth from him!

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Maedhros is at least trying , so credit there.
    Maedhros in a nutshell.
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  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Chapter 14: Of Beleriand and its realms
    In which we are subjected to a chapter of geography lessons

    and
    Chapter 15: Of the Noldor in Beleriand
    Because I want to see some plot advancement in this episode

    We're going to need the map again.
    Spoiler: Map
    Show




    Spoiler: Geography Textbook ahoy!
    Show

    MELKOR'S REALM : Start middle-top of the map. Angband is technically off the map but just north of Ard-Galen. It's part of the outer defense network of Utumno, Morgoth's original main fortress. As a defense against the Valar, he reared two mountain ranges adjoining on the arctic regions as fences, and in the pass between them he put the underground fortress of Angband. It was not thoroughly cleaned out by the Valar in their last assault becuase they needed to keep up the tempo of the offensive against Utumno. So the fortress is still useable, and there were balrogs hiding out in vaults. Morgoth now beings tunnelling and rebuilding the fortress; the spoil of the fortress is piled on top of the dungeon and is used to make the peaks of Thangorodrim. He calls up a wind to blow the pollution and smog of his underground fortress to the elves as a gigantic upraised middle finger, but so long as the siege endures green things grow even in front of the gates of this dreadful fortress, which our author calls 'hell'.

    This does present a problem for the 'geographic fortress' theory , because it sounds like the land north of angband is arctic waste, unsuitable for farming or for timber.

    FINGOLFIN/FINGON: To the west of Angband, over the mountain range , is the land of Hithlum, "land of mist", centered around lake Mithrim. It has cold winters and is always cool, but for all that is a fair land, much like Scandinavia. This territory is ruled by Fingolfin and his son Fingon as High King of the Noldor, meaning that he is first among equals among the kings of the Noldor elves. They have cavalry; it seems that the sons of Feanor brought over a small number of horses with the ships when they crossed over to middle earth, and Maedhros has given many of these to Fingolfin as an apology for abandoning them. It cannot begin to pay for the losses the other elves suffered but , hey, Maedhros is at least trying , so credit there. From this small number the elves breed them in large numbers until they have a large cavalry force, with which they patrol Ard-Galen, right up to the gates of Angband.

    This also explains how the elves were able to ambush that southern army in the second great battle; they must have used mounted scouts to see the orcs in motion, or perhaps they used the seeing gems which Feanor made. From there they must have scraped up a cavalry force to make a forced march and ambush the orcish army. So that's one puzzle explained.

    I wonder if Shadowfax is descended from the horses that came from Valinor with the Noldor?

    The elves of Fingolfin are the bitterest foes of Morgoth, and those Morgoth's soldiers most fear.


    TURGON: South of Hithlum is the region of Nevrast, where Turgon rules for a time, though he will later migrate to the hidden city of Gondolin, in the eastern mountain range. This is a milder land watered by wet winds from the sea. Further, since it is encompassed by hills or mountain ranges, it is sheltered from the winds of Hithlum. Ulmo and Osse come frequently to the coasts about Mount Taras in the southwest, and that is where the bulk of the people live. This also explains why Turgon is in such close contact with Ulmo.

    FINROD: East of Nevrast and south of the plain of Ardgalen is a great highland, sixty leagues wide, called Dorthonian. This is the domain of Finrod "Felagund" (Cave-dweller") The northern section is ruled by his brothers, Angrod and Aegnor, who are Finrod's vassals though they are all sons of Finarfin together, who stayed in Aman. Finrod rules from the underground fortress of Nargothrond, as discussed in the last chapter.

    The river Sirion flows down from the pass between the mountains here. Of note is an island in the middle of the river, Tol Sirion ("Isle of Sirion") on which Finrod has built a watchtower, Minas Tirith ("Tower of Guard"). He holds all this region, the largest kingdom of Beleriand, save the southwest corner which is held by Cirdan the Shipwright, who rules the harbors there, and will continue to do so right down to Return of the King.

    They build a watchtower overlooking the sea approaches but this proves unnecessary; Ulmo and Osse rule the waves, and because of this Morgoth isn't about to send any kind of large naval force into their hands. His servants avoid the water because the Powers of the Water hate them, and they will not travel by sea unless in dire need.

    The elves also explore the Isle of Balar in the view of converting it into a sanctuary should things go wrong on the mainland, but nothing ever comes of it.

    THINGOL: Doriath, Thingol's domain, is due east of Finrod's kingdom. It is a guarded realm protected by the Girdle of Melian, which is never opened. The green elves dwell east of here in the land of Ossiriand.

    To the north of Thingol's realm is Ered Gorgoroth, "Mountains of Terror", so called because Ungoliant and her children live here. They're always delighted to have elves over for lunch, but the delight is not mutual. Consequently , the region of Nan Dungortheb between the mountains and the Girdle of Melian is a no-elves-land where few will willingly travel; it doesn't help that the waters which flow down from the mountains are poisonous, causing madness and despair in any who drink of it.

    FEANOR'S SONS: Due east of the mountains of Dorthonian is a region of low hills , thereby the easiest avenue of attack from Angband. This region is held by Maedhros , which he rules from the fortress of Himring the ever-cold. Celegorm and Curufin, his brothers, hold the region to the south and east of here. Maglor holds the region to the east of Maedhro's holdings between the branches of the river Gelion. There is a spot here where there aren't any hills at all, a veritable highway for Morgoth's people. Dwarvish strongholds adjoin Caranthir's holdings.

    Amrod and Amras hold the area to the south of here, which is a wild but beautiful area, something of a resort for the other Noldor who come here on holiday.



    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Interestingly the map and text don't quite line up... I wonder if it was based off a slightly earlier map version, though it's close enough to be poetic licence, or lost in summary..


    We don't really get the mountain ranges of Angband (it could be further North, though obviously Utummo is northerner)
    Hithlum is portrayed as being South-West (South-South-West) of Angband instead of West
    Nevrast is South-West of Hithlum not South
    From the text Dorthanian sounds like it was to have been the heartlands of Nargothrond and Sirion is described as flowing through it (whereas on the map it's to the west)
    It matches the text, but it must suck for Angrod and Arnor to be trapped between Morgoth, Sauron and Spiders (it's been a while since I read the text that might be explicit)

    It wasn't what I was thinking when I started (which was more or less a relatively small shift arising from drawing the same thing twice, and minor changes). But it struck me that it's almost like the original map was the top quarter
    Spoiler: conspiracy theory
    Show

    Angband sits where Ered Lomin and Ered Wethrim join (just above whats marked as Hithlum).
    Hithlum moves to Lothlam
    Ard-deGalan to Hithlum
    Ossiriland to Doriath
    Doriath to Brethel (only)
    Dorthanian and Nargothrond to Dor-lumin and south of the mountains
    Last edited by jayem; 2022-08-07 at 07:50 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Chapter 16 : Of Maeglin
    Fantasy poison, rape and incest. The Game of Thrones chapter. TRIGGER WARNING.

    Spoiler
    Show

    The chapter opens on Aredhel the White Lady of the Noldor, whom we last saw in chapter 5; she was great friends with the sons of Feanor though never to the extent of making a permanent commitment. The daughter of Fingolfin and the sister of Turgon, she has accompanied them into middle-earth and the hidden city of Gondolin.

    There's a problem with the hidden city: no one comes in, no one leaves. For a free spirit such as Aredhel, this soon enough becomes intolerable. After living there for two centuries, her patience finally snaps and she asks her brother, the king , for permission to leave. He is extremely reluctant to grant this, but she finally wears him down and he relents.

    It does raise a question if Aredhel was the only elf who ever felt constrained by living pent up in this little hidden kingdom; elves in fantasy aren't exactly known for their law-abiding or their willingness to stay in a city for an indefinite period. Human adolescents-to-young adults typically experience a period of wanderlust which more often than not results in a wanderjahr in which the young person explores their world in the brief window between graduation and settling down to their adult careers. But either this never happens in Gondolin, or perhaps the elves don't produce enough younglings for this to matter. We've had a large number of elves in this story who have had only one child; Feanor is an exception with his seven sons.

    At any rate, Turgon yields and instructs her to go to Hithlum, in the west, to see her brother Fingon. Aredhel rebuffs him sharply ; he is king within Gondolin but he has no right to order her comings and goings outside Gondolin.

    Again, this smacks of favoritism; if a commoner-elf made these demands I do not doubt he'd have spent a few decades contemplating the state of the world from Turgon's dungeon, but Turgon won't apply the law to his own sister.

    So: He appoints three elvish lords as her escort, with orders to protect her, and to persuade, but not compel, her to travel to Fingon.

    Aredhel told him no lies and she is determined. They are barely over the border when she changes her course south to Doriath, in the hope of traveling through to see the sons of Feanor.

    Visa Status: DENIED .

    The customs officials aren't going to let a Noldo through to see the sons of Feanor. Thingol's instructions are very clear: No one not in distress is allowed in their land unless specifically invited , and Thingol hasn't invited her or her party. That goes especially for anyone visiting the sons of Feanor, with whom Thingol maintains relations best described as "cool".

    The warders go a step further by giving Aradhel bad advice: The quickest way to the domain of the sons is north and east through the lands of Nun Dangortheb, the stretch just to the north of Doriath, even if it is a little dangerous.

    A 'little dangerous'? HA. That's the most dangerous spot on Middle-Earth. This bad advice, motivated by the mistrust and deceit created by the oath and abetted by Morgoth, sets her on a course likely to lead to her death.

    As they enter the regions just south of Ered Gorgoroth they are surrounded by mists and shadow, in which Aredhel is separate from her companions. They seek for her but succeed only in arousing Ungoliant's family, who pursue them with vigor. They escape back to Gondolin with their lives and little else.

    Man, Turgon's a soft touch. I'm a bit surprised his instructions to the elves were not "come back with the Lady or don't come back at all." But apparently no more is said of this cataclysmic failure on their part.

    Aredhel is made of tougher stuff than they are, however. She makes it through to the lands of Celegorm. He is not here, having ridden off to Thargelion in the east, the domain of Caranthir and the contact point with the dwaves. After staying for a few months, the wanderlust hits her and she takes to wandering further and further afield, alone, until she eventually wanders into Nan Elmoth.

    Nan Elmoth is the location of the tallest and darkest trees in the Elvish territory, and sunlight does not come here. This suits its major occupant, one Eol, quite well. He doesn't like the sun, preferring the moon and stars. For this , and for his Teleri ancestry which never crossed the sea, he is called Eol the Dark Elf. He has little use for the Noldor, considering them usurpers of the land who have stirred Morgoth to anger and therefore the cause of all his woes. He is quite friendly with the dwarves however, and gets on better with them than any other elf. So much so that he has gone to stay with them in Beleghost as guest, and there learned a great deal both of smithwork and of the finding of ores and metals, which are equally necessary for the craft of a smith. He is bent over from all his labor at the forge, but he has a keen eye for all that. He has invented a black metal called galvorn, from which he has created a suit of armour which he wears when abroad. He has also forged two black swords, probably of the same metal. One he gives to his liege-lord, Thingol, as his property tax, and so well-made is the sword he is never asked to pay again. The other sword, naturally he keeps for himself . He lives in these woods alone save for a few servants who maintain his house and his smithy.

    He espies Aredhel and conceives desire for her, and so sets his enchantments upon her. These are very like the willow-man's trick in Fellowship of the Ring; the trees shift and move around Aredhel, leading her ever deeper into the heart of the wood whichever way she turns, until at long last, weary to the bone, she stumbles into Eol's abode. There he welcomes her, and takes her to wife. Together, they conceive a child.

    This is where the rape part comes in. The book says she was not "wholly unwilling nor was her life in Nan Elmoth hateful to her for many years. " Let me boil that down: Consensus is an on-off switch. There's no such thing as a little bit non-consensual any more than there is a "little bit pregnant". The fact is this was NOT consensual and Eol gave her no choice in the matter. Thus, he forced himself on her, and thus it is rape.

    Still, if Eol is a... well, never mind.. he's not a creature of Morgoth either. Aredhel lives as a wife, not a slave, and together they go for long walks under moon and stars together. He forbids her to go out under the sun, which is apparently not a hardship. He also forbids her to seek out the Noldor, but otherwise she is free to go where she will ... which sounds nice but I strongly doubt she could just walk out of his woods -- the same enchantment which trapped her in the first place would probably bring her back. This is a cage with gilded bars, but a cage it is.

    Still, they bring forth a child together, a boy. Aredhel gives him the name Lomion -- "Child of the Twilight" -- in her own language. His father doesn't name him until he is twelve years old and has shown his character, at which point Eol names him Maeglin -- "sharp glance". He is shrewd and perceptive. He looks like his mother but he has his father's temperament, being of few words unless deeply concerned, at which point those few words he spoke were extraordinarily effective. Much like Fujin from Final Fantasy VIII. He is not noted as a great smith, but he learns a great deal about finding metals and ores.

    Maeglin is a young elf of ambition. He is very intrigued to hear that he is the grandson of the King of Gondolin, who moreover has no heir. He tries to learn more, especially how to get there, but Aredhel isn't about to divulge that dread secret to anyone , even her own son. Having failed to wheedle her into telling her outright where it is, he starts planting seeds to suggest to her that they should go to visit it together. Soon she wonders how she ever grew tired of the place, as it was far less dreary than Nan Elmoth, and is won over to the idea. But when Maeglin broaches the idea to his father, Eol forbids it, threatening to chain Maeglin up if necessary to stop him going to the hated Noldor. This leads to a permanent break in their relationship. Eventually Eol leaves on business to the east -- possibly to acquire more ore for his smithying? Maeglin proposes to Aredhel that they take this opportunity to flee to Gondolin, and she readily agrees. Maeglin contrives to steal Eol's sword, and the two take off.

    Eol returns sooner than expected, and hastens to the land of the sons in order to get news of them and bring them back by force if necessary. He is quickly detained by Curufin's border guards and brought into Curufin's presence. There, claiming honestly to seek news of his kindred. They promptly indulge in an insult duel which Eol wins with an epic put-down, telling Curufin "it is good, Lord Curufin, to find a kinsman thus kindly at need." Curufin doesn't have a good comeback to that, but he is a high lord of the Noldor and has absolutely no desire to be addressed as kinsman by a dark elf. We've already mentioned he's extremely racist and haughty. He responds viciously:

    "Do not flaunt the title of your wife before me, for those who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them without gift or leave do not gain kinship with their kin. I have given you leave to go. Take it, and be gone. By the laws of the Eldar I may not slay you at this time. And this counsel I add: Return now to your dwelling in the darkness of Nan Elmoth, for my heart warns me that if you now pursue those who love you no more, never will you return thither."

    Curufin may be a racist so-and-so, but he has a touch of foresight about him, possibly an effect of his long association with the Valar in Aman. I also note that he talks about Aredhel as "stolen" but doesn't seem to take any other offence at Eol holding a sapient being, the high lady of the noldor no less, captive. He reacts as if she were a sack of grain that had been mislaid. Then again, he's hardly any kind of role model in these stories.

    Curufin HAD told Eol which direction his family has taken off in, so Eol pursues them. He is able to catch up to them in the wilderness on the way to Gondolin, partly because their horses neigh loudly at an inconvenient time, and also because Aredhel, the White Lady, is indeed wearing a pure white garment which has roughly the camouflage value of a neon sign.
    Tell it to us Major Zero (27:00-28:00).

    Aradhel and Maeglin are spotted by the guards and brought in to a joyous reunion. Turgon is fantastically happy that his sister, whom he thought lost, has returned alive to him!

    Then the guards bring him more news: They've taken another interloper who claims to be Aredhel's husband. She acknowledges this is true; he is her husband and the father of Maeglin. She asks he be brought before Turgon for judgement, and this is quickly done.

    Turgon welcomes Eol warmly, addressing him as 'kinsman' and offers him life in Gondolin as the brother-in-law of the king, in great honor.

    Eol's response: "King? Well I didn't vote for you!"

    Eol goes on an anti-colonialist rant directed at the Noldor, informing him in no uncertain terms that he wants nothing from Turgon whatever; just to get his wife and son back and go home. He's willing to leave Aredhel here, because she is Turgon's kinsperson, but he INSISTS that Maeglin return to him. He speaks loudly at Maeglin, who says nothing in response.

    Turgon takes the velvet glove off the mailed fist: Whatever Eol's views, he IS king of Gondolin. And if you ask "you and what army?" He has one. So Turgon gives Eol two choices plainly: To live in Gondolin in honor or die immediately; he knows too much to be allowed to just go free.

    Eol responds "The second I choose and for my son also! You shall not take what is mine!"

    He then produces a hidden javelin, because the guards utterly failed to perform a thorough search, and throws it at Maeglin!

    It doesn't land. Aredhel throws herself in front of Maeglin. the javelin strikes weakly, a mere scratch. One combat round later Eol has been overwhelmed by the guards and dragged off to the dungeon. Both Aredhel and Idril, the king's daughter who has the blonde hair and blue eyes of a Vanyar, plead for mercy. But an aggravating circumstance is quickly added: The javelin, it seems, was poisoned. Aradhel dies a horrible death that same night, since no one realized what had happened until too late. Poisoning is a pretty awful way to die .

    So, having attempted murder in the king's presence and actually killed his own sister, Turgon is in no mood to be merciful. Eol is given a flying lesson over the nearest cliff, mother bird-style; thrown over the edge, he has at least ten seconds to learn to fly before hitting bottom. Not even his armour will help with that.

    As they are preparing to give him the heave-ho, he looks at his son, Maeglin, standing quietly by. He speaks thus:

    "So you forsake your father and his kin, ill-gotten son! Here shall you fail of all your hopes, and here may you yet die the same death as I."

    Which seems unfair, although this curse may prove prophetic. Why should Maeglin go with the man who just murdered his own wife in front of his brother-in-law? Eol is bad news. But I suppose the curse will bite because Maeglin is acting primarily out of selfish ambition, which helps encompass Eol's death.

    Whatever, over the cliff Eol goes. He doesn't fly and he doesn't bounce either. That's the last we'll hear of him.

    Maeglin proves a wise counselor, a peerless seeker of ores for Gondolin's forges, and brave in battle. But he conceives a tendre for Idril, Turgon's daughter, his first cousin. Hence the incest, or would be, except Idril wants nothing to do with him and is seriously put off. She thinks the whole idea of sleeping with someone that close gag-inducing; Cersei Lannister she is not, though Maeglin certainly wants to be Jaime. Maeglin , thus rebuffed, puts all his energy into growing ever more power in other avenues, keeping his eye on her always.

    "Thus it was in Gondolin", the chapter concludes, "and amid all the bliss of the realm, while its glory lasted, a dark seed of evil was sown".

    Ominous.



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    Last edited by pendell; 2022-08-11 at 06:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    elves in fantasy aren't exactly known for their law-abiding or their willingness to stay in a city for an indefinite period.
    Are they? I'm more used to Elves being isolationnists, perfectly willing to spend enternity in whatever too-perfect-to-be-true island they live in and getting pissed that people keep coming in and dragging them into whatever nonsense the outside world is up to this week. Wanderlust is more a human thing in fantasy, in my experience.

    Again, this smacks of favoritism; if a commoner-elf made these demands I do not doubt he'd have spent a few decades contemplating the state of the world from Turgon's dungeon, but Turgon won't apply the law to his own sister.
    Privilege: private law. These are aristocrats, they haven't got the same laws.

    Man, Turgon's a soft touch. I'm a bit surprised his instructions to the elves were not "come back with the Lady or don't come back at all." But apparently no more is said of this cataclysmic failure on their part.
    Why would he do that? That'd be cruel and stupid. He already trusts them to do everything in their power to protect her otherwise he wouldn't habe trusted them with her safety.

    This is where the rape part comes in. The book says she was not "wholly unwilling nor was her life in Nan Elmoth hateful to her for many years. " Let me boil that down: Consensus is an on-off switch. There's no such thing as a little bit non-consensual any more than there is a "little bit pregnant". The fact is this was NOT consensual and Eol gave her no choice in the matter. Thus, he forced himself on her, and thus it is rape.
    I think the idea is that he never physically forced her and she may not have realized he was the reason she couldn't leave until he had seduced her. But, obviously, trapping someone with you to seduce them is just foul. Eöl is a piece of ****.


    "Do not flaunt the title of your wife before me, for those who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them without gift or leave do not gain kinship with their kin. I have given you leave to go. Take it, and be gone. By the laws of the Eldar I may not slay you at this time. And this counsel I add: Return now to your dwelling in the darkness of Nan Elmoth, for my heart warns me that if you now pursue those who love you no more, never will you return thither."

    Curufin may be a racist so-and-so, but he has a touch of foresight about him, possibly an effect of his long association with the Valar in Aman. I also note that he talks about Aredhel as "stolen" but doesn't seem to take any other offence at Eol holding a sapient being, the high lady of the noldor no less, captive. He reacts as if she were a sack of grain that had been mislaid. Then again, he's hardly any kind of role model in these stories.
    I think the idea here is not that he suspects Eöl abducted Aredhel but because there was no gift, no feast, no ceremony, he guessed that neither Turgon nor Fingolfin have given her hand in marriage, so he doesn't see the marriage as legitimate, but he may still think they absconded together.

    As they are preparing to give him the heave-ho, he looks at his son, Maeglin, standing quietly by. He speaks thus:

    "So you forsake your father and his kin, ill-gotten son! Here shall you fail of all your hopes, and here may you yet die the same death as I."

    Which seems unfair
    Yeah. Trying to murder him earlier also comes off as unfair to me.

    although this curse may prove prophetic. Why should Maeglin go with the man who just murdered his own wife in front of his brother-in-law? Eol is bad news. But I suppose the curse will bit because Maeglin is acting primarily out of selfish ambition, which helps encompass Eol's death.
    I mean, curses generally seem to work in Middle-Earth, regardless of fairness.
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    Why would he do that? That'd be cruel and stupid. He already trusts them to do everything in their power to protect her otherwise he wouldn't habe trusted them with her safety.
    They didn't go back for her, or continue the search once they fled. I understand they had no choice but to flee from the spiders, but afterwards she was in Feanor country for many months; they could have kept looking , ridden around to the south, and caught up with her before she ever set foot in Nan Elmoth. They didn't try this though. They didn't even check the other end to see if , by chance , she had actually made it through. They gave her up for lost and gave up. Aragon kept after Gollum for a much longer length of time, and it wasn't his liege-lady he was hunting for. But they gave up and accepted defeat.

    If this were a Samurai movie they'd be expected to commit seppuku. This is a western show so of course we're not going to be nearly as severe, but I think they could have done more and they paid zero consequence for not doing so.

    Also, a thought:
    Cool armour? Check. Disdain for authority? Check. Man of few word? Check.

    Conclusion: Eol is Boba Fett. Change my mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Why would he do that? That'd be cruel and stupid. He already trusts them to do everything in their power to protect her otherwise he wouldn't habe trusted them with her safety.
    Also, I'm pretty sure Turgon is fully aware of how willful Aredhel is and absolutely expected that she would attempt to ditch her guards repeatedly until she eventually succeeded. The actual circumstance is probably worse than he anticipated - I imagine he expected Aredhel to find a place in some high-ranking Noldor court and have its lord order the guards out - but only by degree.

    I think the idea is that he never physically forced her and she may not have realized he was the reason she couldn't leave until he had seduced her. But, obviously, trapping someone with you to seduce them is just foul. Eöl is a piece of ****.
    Yeah, Eol deceived Aredhel and manipulated circumstances so that they ended up married, but I think rape is not the appropriate reading of the sequence.

    I think the idea here is not that he suspects Eöl abducted Aredhel but because there was no gift, no feast, no ceremony, he guessed that neither Turgon nor Fingolfin have given her hand in marriage, so he doesn't see the marriage as legitimate, but he may still think they absconded together.
    My interpretation is that Curufin - being an aristocratic jerk - conceives of Eol having 'stolen' Aredhel in that he married a million miles above his station. The marriage may be legitimate, in that it is lawful, but it's still inappropriate. This is tied into the 'title of your wife' bit. Eol is a nobody, but as Aredhel's husband he acquires noble standing among the Noldor. It's very much a case where the princess married a blacksmith and now everyone else is obligated to treat the blacksmith as 'Prince Consort' and probably give him a bunch of other titles as well. Curufin, and basically every other Noldor noble, finds this highly offensive.
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    Eol is definitely coercing her, compelling her into his house. When she leaves, he pursues her to bring her back. And he has a child with his prisoner; that's a considerable liberty to be taking with a captive to begin with. As it is, he doesn't have any lawful authority to hold her prisoner. I'm not sure that meets the legal definition, but he's deserving of death on at least the count of kidnapping.


    Although I suppose there is a possible line of the story where he simply welcomed her into his house, they eventually come to love each other and be married. Certainly she seems to have been cured of her wanderlust living with him; they go for long walks under the stars and there's no indication of restlessness on her part until Maeglin comes of age -- and then it is not to wander freely, but to return to Gondolin permanently. Is this part of the natural process of aging, I wonder.

    Even so, with the best possible reading their relationship begins with Eol trapping her like a fly in a spider's web, and whatever else you call it I think Fyraltari's word "foul" is apt.


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    Last edited by pendell; 2022-08-11 at 08:38 PM.
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    One detail I find interesting in the story of Eol, Aradhel and Maeglin is how little mention there is of the sword-shaped pile of darkness in the ballroom.

    This chapter mentions that Eol made Anglachel (reforged as Gurthang) which he gave to Thingol, and kept it's mate
    Anguirel for himself. Now, I don't want to jump ahead and go into the details of just what tragedies Gurthang seems to help take place, but I find it curious that both those black metal swords are associated with tragedy, treachery, and destruction. How much of Eol's evil was originally innate, and how much of it grew with outside aid? That's not to deny Eol agency - as a Tolkien character he obviously had it and chose poorly, but he may have had encouragement in his poor decisions. And the same goes for Maeglin as well.

    And to touch on the theme pendell mentioned - he's got a darksaber, too.
    Last edited by runeghost; 2022-08-11 at 09:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by runeghost View Post
    This chapter mentions that Eol made Anglachel (reforged as Gurthang) which he gave to Thingol, and kept it's mate
    Anguirel for himself. Now, I don't want to jump ahead and go into the details of just what tragedies Gurthang seems to help take place, but I find it curious that both those black metal swords are associated with tragedy, treachery, and destruction. How much of Eol's evil was originally innate, and how much of it grew with outside aid?
    I think it's the opposite -- Melian says of the blade that the 'dark heart of the smith dwells in it'. If these swords are associated with tragedy and destruction, it is because of the darkness in them. And they're dark because of what Eol put into them, just as the One Ring had a bit of Sauron put into it.

    So it isn't that the swords made Eol dark -- Eol, who made the swords, put his own darkness in them. The act of creation in middle-earth means putting a part of your soul into the work -- Yavanna with the trees, Feanor with the Silmarils, Sauron with his ring. Eol made these swords dark, because he put his heart into making those swords and his heart is dark.

    This puts me in mind of the legend of the Muramasa katanas, which were supposedly imbued with their maker's heart, and therefore drove their wielders mad with bloodlust.

    And to touch on the theme pendell mentioned - he's got a darksaber, too.
    So now when I envision Eol and Maeglin as a child walking -- it's the Mando and Groghu. And it wasn't a javelin he threw at Maeglin, it was a wristrocket

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    Last edited by pendell; 2022-08-11 at 10:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    but he's deserving of death on at least the count of kidnapping.
    To paraphrase here: "Deserving of death? I daresay he is. Many that live are deserving of death. And some that die are deserving of life. Can you give it to them? So do not be too willing to deal out death in punishment, for not even the Wise can see all ends.".

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    And its not even the darkest chapter of the book....

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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    To paraphrase here: "Deserving of death? I daresay he is. Many that live are deserving of death. And some that die are deserving of life. Can you give it to them? So do not be too willing to deal out death in punishment, for not even the Wise can see all ends.".
    I think that after kidnapping, whatever-you-call-it-forced-marriage, and murder of the king's sister we're well beyond the point of being "too willing to deal out death in punishment" and are now into "long overdue" territory. At some point showing charity and mercy to an offender, as opposed to restraining them, only makes more victims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I think that after kidnapping, whatever-you-call-it-forced-marriage, and murder of the king's sister we're well beyond the point of being "too willing to deal out death in punishment" and are now into "long overdue" territory. At some point showing charity and mercy to an offender, as opposed to restraining them, only makes more victims.

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    How would imprisoning Eol until he can be brought to accept that his actions were wrong create more victims?
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    How would imprisoning Eol until he can be brought to accept that his actions were wrong create more victims?
    Eöl is an Elf. That's exactly what killing him does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Eöl is an Elf. That's exactly what killing him does.
    There's a difference between being sent to the Halls of Mandos and being locked in a room in Gondolin, namely the former is a lot more permanent than the latter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    There's a difference between being sent to the Halls of Mandos and being locked in a room in Gondolin, namely the former is a lot more permanent than the latter.
    No, it's not. Elves get let out of the halls of Mandos once Mandos judges them fit to do so. The only differences between the halls and a cell in Gondolin is the former can't be broken out of and the judge is as objective as you get.
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    I imagine Eol would have killed himself once in captivity at the slightest opportunity. Escaping from Gondolin would have been beyond him, the crafts of the Noldor are simply greater than his, and his spiteful nature would have seethed and fumed were he chained by those he hated with only one target; himself.

    Eol is no Morgoth or Sauron, he lacks their patience and long cunning despite being alike to them in avarice. No great evil could he have wrought from a cell, but likewise he would not endure captivity for the potential of greater gains in future.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    How would imprisoning Eol until he can be brought to accept that his actions were wrong create more victims?
    While I would not put anything beyond the reach of grace and mercy, I should think it would be a very, very long time before Eol could be brought to such realization. Certainly neither Feanor nor his sons ever turned from their path, not even after hundreds of years of seeing what sorrow their decisions caused themselves and others.

    Also, "life imprisonment" or prisons in general aren't really a thing in Middle Earth. Mandos has his halls but those are pretty much the only locations for long-term detention of convicted criminals. What we think of as "prison" is an artifact of the modern era . In ancient and medieval times, resources were at far more of a premium than they are in the postindustrial world. So many people were struggling to achieve even subsistence level living there simply wasn't anything to spare for convicted criminals. So they'd be exiled, banished, or put to death. Middle Earth follows this medieval pattern. Dungeons exist, but they're intended either for keeping suspects being interrogated (as Thorin was ) or they're short-term holding intended to keep those awaiting trial until the local judge could rule on their case and assign a proper punishment -- material compensation in cases of property crime, exile or death for capital offenses.

    Tolkien didn't have to follow this pattern as there's plenty of anachronism in his story. Even so, "life imprisonment" doesn't seem to be an innovation the elves pursue. The closest we find are the thralls Morgoth keeps to labour in his mines, and the elves don't exactly consider him a role model.

    There's another principal which goes back to the Doom of Mandos, and these words are verbatim in that chapter: "For blood ye shall render blood". The life of a sapient creature isn't something you can just take ; if you think of justice as a pair of scales the shedding of blood, especially innocent blood, is a heavy weight on one side that can only be cancelled out by the blood of the offender drawn in turn. Elven law seems to recognize this as a basic principle of how their world works, nor is there any obvious mechanism to override it such as Aslan lying down on the Stone Table for Edmund's sake. If there is a Deeper Magic than the Deep Magic of the Doom, the mechanism is not immediately obvious. At least, not in the Silmarillion.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2022-08-12 at 09:37 AM.
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  25. - Top - End - #265
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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    No, it's not. Elves get let out of the halls of Mandos once Mandos judges them fit to do so. The only differences between the halls and a cell in Gondolin is the former can't be broken out of and the judge is as objective as you get.
    You're right, I'd misremembered how the Halls work. I thought that elves had to stay there until the end of the world, and Glorfindel was the only one who'd been released early. Given how they actually work, I suppose there isn't really a problem with executing Eol.
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  26. - Top - End - #266
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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    , I suppose there isn't really a problem with executing Eol.
    "You have been sentenced to life in prison. Fetch the executioner immediately!"

    My dwarven friend would always say elfs are bar stewards.

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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Chapter 17: Of the Coming of the Men into the West
    In which we reprise Chapter 12, but with more details

    Spoiler
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    We pan in on Finrod Felagund hunting with Maedhros and Maglor, the sons of Feanor. But he gets bored and starts to ride back home, all by himself, traveling through Ossiriand when he hears singing and sees campfires. He's concerned this may be an orc-raid So naturally he heads off to investigate.

    All ALONE.

    Just like Aredhel. Don't these elves have any idea of a bodyguard? Especially since he believes he's about to face off with orcs? Their equivalent of the Secret Service must have conniptions.

    He stealthily approaches the camp to find these are strange beings, neither elves nor orcs. He loves these people, who sing for joy and not the hateful songs of the evil ones. He waits until they are asleep, then enters the camp, takes up a harp, and begins to sing.

    And .. and this is exactly the same first contact encounter Orome had with the elves, beat for beat. Although Tolkien hadn't put this into form as a final published story, so I guess we have to cut him some slack , despite the recycling.

    The humans (for so they are) awaken and listen to his son. While they cannot fully understand the words, wisdom is in the song, and those who hearken gain +1 to that stat. In token of this they name Finrod Nom, the Wise , and his people Nomin ("The people of wisdom").

    After this, language lessons. The humans have had dark elves for instructors , so their own language has many common roots and cognates with Sindarin, so they are able to establish a rapport and peaceful contact with the Elven king. They have absolutely no desire to talk about where they came from, however. They have fled darkness , hunted by the dark king whom we know as Morgoth, and wish only to look ahead, never behind. A shadow lies on them just as on the Noldor, though it is of different kind. Balan is the name of their leader, and the people are "dark or brown of hair, and grey-eyed".

    Finrod stays among them and teaches them for a full YEAR (no one noticed the king was AWOL after a hunting trip for a full year?). During this time, the local Green-elves send him a messenger. They tell him to either send the humans back or move them forward into his own land. The humans are hewers of wood and hunters of beasts, therefore the unfriends of the green-elves, who threaten to start killing them if they don't up stakes and move on. He therefore moves them to the land of Amrod and Amras, and the new land is named Estolad, "the encampment".

    The elves are more than happy to enlist young human males in their armies for the war against Morgoth, and the humans for their part are more than willing to earn acceptance in Elvish society in this way. Among them is Balan himself, who takes the new name Beor, "Vassal" ('slave'? Has the man no self-esteem?). He will serve Finrod 25 years before dying of old age, to the surprise and consternation of his elvish lord. These people are called Atani, "The second comers" or "followers", in the old language, which becomes "Edain" in Sindarin. From this we will later get Dunedain - "Dun-Adan", "man of the west".

    Thus the house of Beor is the first of three houses, or families, of elf-friends, those humans allied with the elves in Beleriand in the first age.

    Morgoth, meanwhile, has been busy. For the only time since the re-founding of Angband, he himself departs his stronghold to see the newly arisen race of beings, leaving Sauron in command in his absence. He formulates a plan to subvert them and bring them from the east as his ally against the elves, but this plan initially fails. The elvish forces press the siege to tightly, forcing him to abort his plans , which are only partly successful at this stage, and return to Angband, leaving behind some relatively useless servants to continue the work. They don't.

    All the elves extend invitation to the humans to join their armies and receive lands in return, with one notable exception. Thingol will have nothing to do with them, insisting, on the basis of disquieting dreams, that no human will ever set foot in Doriath while he is king there. Melian considers this, but notes that this is a flawed plan -- eventually a human will come, guided by fate, and it will be beyond any power, even hers, to keep him out. And when this happens it will cause all the kingdoms of the elves to tremble. Foreshadowing!

    Not long thereafter the second house of humans enters Beleriand -- the people of Haleth, a woodland people, less interested in lore and avoiding large groups. These are also black/brown of hair with grey eyes. They are a small and less numerous people, and the green-elves beset them with fury, forcing them to travel quickly through their lands to Estolad.

    Then, a third group. This is a powerful army in well-ordered military formation. The green-elves take one look at these forbidding humans, and leave them alone. As Macchiavelli would say "amongst the other evils being unarmed causes, it makes you despised." These are the people of Marach, golden-haired and blue-eyed, the most powerful of the three houses.

    Humans start out in Estolad but bit by bit many of them migrate further into elvish lands at the invitation of the Noldor. During this time they have a great council as to what they should do next. Many, such as Beor, want to remain in these lands under the protection of the Noldor and fight Morgoth with them. Others, led by one Bereg, would rather return south or east to uninhabited areas. They came to the west in the hope of finding the land of the gods, but there is only one "god" in this part of the world, the dark King from whom they flee. This group is more than happy to let the Noldor fight their useless war while they seek another refuge far away from all the death and destruction.

    At this point Morgoth over-plays his hand, sending a phantom in the guise of Amlach son of Imlach to persuade them to do this very thing, and fill them with fear. However, the spy is found out when Amlach returns among them and denies ever having said any of these things. Odd that Morgoth was so careless as to not silence the real Amlach before attempting this gambit. "Servants of less might and cunning", indeed!

    At any rate, those humans who have no interest in the war take Bereg as their leader, about a thousand strong, and depart out of Beleriand. And that's the end of their story. Amlach, however, chooses to stay, as the Master of Lies has started a quarrel with him, and he intends to see it through to its end.

    So the process of gradual human migration into the elvish lands continue. The Elves shortly discover (though exactly what the problem is is not disclosed) that humans and elves do not live together well; so instead they decide on segregation, apartheid, setting lands apart for humans under their own lords within their territory. Knowing the history of "separate but equal" it would not surprise me if the lands given were far from the best. I wonder what the problem was, and if there was a better solution?

    Morgoth, meanwhile, seeing that his attempts to ally with the humans or scare them out have failed, decides on an orc-raid to kill as many as possible. With the minimal warning that is Morgoth's trademark, the orcs sweep down on Estolad on the poorly defended and widely scattered settlements.

    The next section is lifted straight from a Spaghetti Western; a brave man named Haldad gathers together all the brave humans at hand and makes a fighting retreat to the angle of land between Ascar and Gelion. They build a stockade in which they place all the women and children that can be saved, then defend it against the vicious assault of the orcs. For at least seven days they hold out, grimly determined, until as the orcs are in the final assault Caranthir's army arrives and hits them from behind, thus saving much of the human race in Beleriand. The cavalry has arrived! I guess I have to think a little bit better of Feanor's sons; they do have the occasional good point.

    Caranthir is impressed by the gallantry of the humans , who are now led by Haleth, Haldad's daughter, since Haldad himself was killed in the siege. They are proud, independent, and have no use for lords and therefore live apart. They are called thereafter the Haladim. After some time they think better of their current location and move westward, through the strip of land between Ungoliant and Melian, to take up new residence in the region of Brethil, in Thingol's domain.

    Thingol is talked out of war on these intruders by Finrod, and also by his own hearing of the travails they have suffered. He therefore grants the land to the Edain on the condition that they guard the passes and let no orcs through. Haleth is a little offended as there is no way she is ever going to be friends with the orcs or their master who slew her father and so many other innocent people unawares without so much as a declaration of war.

    Haleth has a brother, Haldor, who becomes in time the father of Hador the golden-haired. Hador will serve Fingolfin and in recognition of this will be made lord of the land of Dor-Lomin. Many children come from this family, including Hurin, Huor (father of Tuor, father of Earendil), Morwen, Barahir, and many others. Their stories will be told in the following chapters.

    And now that the stage is set, hopefully we can get on to the main story in the next chapter!



    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  28. - Top - End - #268
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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    So the process of gradual human migration into the elvish lands continue. The Elves shortly discover (though exactly what the problem is is not disclosed) that humans and elves do not live together well; so instead they decide on segregation, apartheid, setting lands apart for humans under their own lords within their territory. Knowing the history of "separate but equal" it would not surprise me if the lands given were far from the best. I wonder what the problem was, and if there was a better solution?
    Tolkien elves and humans are separate species (though capable of interbreeding, rarely), with significant differences in both their natural biology and - because this is a mythic setting - their supernatural qualities. It's not surprising that their societal structures, built environments, diets, and other factors would vary considerably, making life side by side nearly impossible.

    One simple but significant example: Tolkien's elves have vastly greater environmental tolerance than humans, under normal environmental conditions (meaning anything less than the horrible polar ice) they simply do not get cold. Consequently, they don't need to use fire for heating, ever. They just stay warm. That means elven society uses fire only for cooking or crafting (and perhaps not that much cooking, since the elves seem to eat a lot of uncooked vegetarian fare), and consequently probably find human society absolutely choking with smoke and ash.

    Consequently, division of territory makes sense. In particular, since the elves and humans appear to practice different agricultural regimes at all levels (different cultivated plants, different livestock, different land management practices, etc.) it would make sense to divide up territory according to land that fits each method better. In a simplified framework this would likely result in the elves getting naturally forested territory and humans natural grasslands. In the real world this would result in a mosaic distribution of territories, with alternating dominance at the regional level and a lot of contention over whether certain types of territory - especially fire-dependent landscapes like pine savannah - qualify as 'forest' or 'grassland.' Tolkien, however, practiced fairy tale geography (which is fine, landscape ecology wouldn't even come into existence as a discipline until decades later) and so land could be divided in broad strokes.

    Even more broadly, it probably cannot be emphasized enough that most of the land is still wilderness. The weight of civilization lies very lightly upon the land in the First Age. Tolkien's sources were all Northern European in origin, from areas that had very low population density during the time period when the relevant sagas and literature were written. This also probably has a lot to do with how major lords can just wander off for huge expanses of time and have that be considered normal.
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

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  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    All ALONE.

    Just like Aredhel. Don't these elves have any idea of a bodyguard? Especially since he believes he's about to face off with orcs? Their equivalent of the Secret Service must have conniptions.
    He's a mighty warrior, though.

    The humans (for so they are) awaken and listen to his son. While they cannot fully understand the words, wisdom is in the song, and those who hearken gain +1 to that stat. In token of this they name Finrod Nom, the Wise , and his people Nomin ("The people of wisdom").
    Which is a nod to the time when the Noldor were still called "Gnomes".

    Finrod stays among them and teaches them for a full YEAR (no one noticed the king was AWOL after a hunting trip for a full year?).
    What makes you think he's told no-one where he was? A year is plenty enough time to send a message either a letter or by magical means.
    And even if he's told no one, his people think he's staying with Fëanor's sons and don't expect him back any time soon (remember how Arwen visited her grandmother for twenty years?) and the sons of Fëanor think he went home.

    During this time, the local Green-elves send him a messenger.
    See? People know where he's at.

    Among them is Balan himself, who takes the new name Beor, "Vassal" ('slave'? Has the man no self-esteem?).
    A vassal is nothing like a slave. A vassal id a lord in his own right, even if he acknowledges another lord above him.
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  30. - Top - End - #270
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    Default Re: Pendell reads the Silmarillion

    The kings of the Noldor are probably only important when there's a major social dispute going on in their realm anyway. The whole point of being a king is to build a system that can run without constant input, even to the point that the specific duties of a king can be deferred to subordinates. Given the generally unsettled nature of the lands sending messengers back and forth is time consuming and risky, so a king going out to visit friends or family abroad might be out of contact for a long time.*

    Unless two lords get into a tiff over something or other, and refuse to accept the arbitration of the seneschal, or grand vizier or whatever title the regent has, there's ideally not much need for a king.

    Theoretically even probing attacks by Morgoth don't need the king to be present to repel them.



    *In theory as settlements spread, postal systems get arranged and roads improved it becomes more practical for messages to be sent, and so more reasonable to expect someone in the king's entourage if not the king themself to send and respond to letters.
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