Obi-Wan Kenobi

[warty goblin]

I feel like it should be possible to dislike something without saying the people who do like it are somehow equivalent to drug addicts and/or prostitutes. People will enjoy things that you don't. Sometimes they will enjoy them even though they think they're kinda bad, I'm willing to bet every single person on this thread has something they admit is pretty bad, but still derive enjoyment from, be it via fan inertia, nostalgia, or whatever else. This is not a high bar to clear in terms of respectful criticism and debate folks.

[ecarden]

I feel like it should be possible to dislike something without saying the people who do like it are somehow equivalent to drug addicts and/or prostitutes. People will enjoy things that you don't. Sometimes they will enjoy them even though they think they're kinda bad, I'm willing to bet every single person on this thread has something they admit is pretty bad, but still derive enjoyment from, be it via fan inertia, nostalgia, or whatever else. This is not a high bar to clear in terms of respectful criticism and debate folks.

Concur. I've got my complaints about the show, but this is a pretty wildly over the top thread and barely even about this show at this point.

[Thrudd]

I feel like it should be possible to dislike something without saying the people who do like it are somehow equivalent to drug addicts and/or prostitutes. People will enjoy things that you don't. Sometimes they will enjoy them even though they think they're kinda bad, I'm willing to bet every single person on this thread has something they admit is pretty bad, but still derive enjoyment from, be it via fan inertia, nostalgia, or whatever else. This is not a high bar to clear in terms of respectful criticism and debate folks.

Yes, that's true. I was griping as an old, disenchanted grump. It was hyperbole, not really meant to attack individual fans - but stated as one who has felt the pull. I personally have a morbid curiosity to keep consuming this product, despite long being disenchanted by the actual quality of the story telling and writing in general. I am guilty of fanboying out when the prequels came out and living in complete denial of how horrible they were until after Ep 3. I ignored the problems with Rogue One because I was so high on the visuals and the "grittiness". I kept optimistic about the sequels even after seeing Ep 7, and ignored many of its problems, because I wanted to believe so badly that someone was going to "save" Star Wars. I loved the first season of Mandalorian, and ignored a lot of its problems, for much the same reason. So I'm talking about myself when I relate to an addiction. Nostalgia for Star Wars is strong in me. I can also get this way about other stories and interesting settings, even bad ones...I will keep watching a horrible sci-fi or fantasy show, just in case the writers turn things around and reveal that they actually knew what they were doing all along, because even if it's dumb, I want to see where things are going and how the story resolves.

Of course, this isn't a serious issue. It was probably wrong to hyperbolize in this fashion, when real addiction is a horrible struggle for too many people. Consumers aren't being "exploited" by Disney, exactly...the stuff they're making is just fun enough that people can enjoy it if they don't think about it too much, and that isn't a bad thing. It's just a shame that the proportion of dumb fun to thoughtful art, in the overall media entertainment sphere, is so high.

[Caledonian]

Imagine if the special effects were reduced to the quality of the scripting. Would people still watch this show?

Even the visual features, as opposed to special effects, are awful. Vader is usually shown in small spaces to emphasize his inexorability in the OT. Even when he's in an open space, he's shot from a lower angle looking up. He fills the world.

Now he's a tiny figure in a great big open desert. Diminished. How many people consciously understood the methods used to reflect Vader's presence in the OT? How many people HAD to recognize the failure of that art in this show, when it was so badly done that it forces viewers out of immersion?

[ecarden]

I mean, we're assuming a lot about a show that isn't over. To take a minor example, it may well prove to be the case that Third Sister was smuggled through this same network and so knew where the tunnel came out once she realized they were hooked into the Path.

Additionally, for the complaints about changes to Leia's history with Obi Wan, I'm not at all sure how much of this she (and maybe he) is going to remember. We've already established Third Sister has some sort of mind powers, when she just straight up lifts Obi Wan's info out of fake Jedi's mind. Not even suggestion, or lengthy discussion, just reach in and grab what she needs.

Given that, my wild guess would be that Leia finds out about her birth family, is extremely distraught/would be unable to keep it secret and Third Sister (redeemed) takes it away.

Alternatively, Third Sister attempts to rip information from Leia, and causes her to forget.

Vader's harder, but we'll see what they do and I'll withhold serious judgment until I do.

[dancrilis]

Spoiler: Vader and Obi-Wan

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I have been thinking about a way to fix the issue with them meeting before the Death Star.

In Star War (A New Hope) Vader is not angry he has his emotions under control - in this series he doesn't.
In Rebels he is described as cold (and acted it).

Vader's line on the Death Star was 'when I left you' so it is possible that this series will have Vader transform from someone emotional driven towards someone more calm and collected - and he might leave Obi-Wan alive in order to help him master his own hatred and other emotions.

Done well this could be decent ... I don't think they will do it at all and if they do I doubt it would be done well.

[Saintheart]

I feel like it should be possible to dislike something without saying the people who do like it are somehow equivalent to drug addicts and/or prostitutes. People will enjoy things that you don't. Sometimes they will enjoy them even though they think they're kinda bad, I'm willing to bet every single person on this thread has something they admit is pretty bad, but still derive enjoyment from, be it via fan inertia, nostalgia, or whatever else.

Guilty as charged. I'm still waiting for a Highlander sequel since nothing resembling an actual movie was ever filmed after the original.

And I am not blind to the fact that if I had Artistic Integrity or somesuch, I wouldn't be watching the show at all. I wouldn't be feeding the beast with my attention. I would be following the uncommon wisdom that turned up like a perfectly formed gem in the dross of in a similarly mediocre but occasionally good TV series from years ago. I trust I don't need to explain the analogy.

But, because it's sometimes hard to stop watching a car crash in motion, here I am anyway, and here I shall remain. And here shall remain my view that it's contempt for the audience that fuels bad storytelling like we've seen in this show. Because the alternative - that this is the best that these people could come up with while being paid several multiples of the wage that you or I or anyone on this board will ever see - is either too sad, too hilarious, or too disgusting to contemplate.

As for the contemptibility of the audience? I'll leave the fact that Obi-Wan Kenobi isn't cratering in the ratings despite the issues that have been identified across this thread as its own evidence. Draw from that what you will.

[Peelee]

I'm willing to bet every single person on this thread has something they admit is pretty bad, but still derive enjoyment from

Agreed. For example, I like Star Wars media outside of the original trilogy.

[Kriegspiel]

To be clear, the concern isn't

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that she found the starport, it's that she travelled the length of the tunnel, found the, presumably concealed, other end of the tunnel and killed the contact before Leia travelled the length of the tunnel. Speeder helps buy some time, but unless she somehow knew the end-point, or the Force guided her there somehow, it's hard to figure out how she managed that.

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While I agree with the general poor quality of the writing and how badly that plot point was handled....my mind keeps going back to Leia's little toddler legs pumping furiously whenever she tries to run.

I'm pretty sure Third Sister could take a nap and then merely walk to the exit and still beat Leia there.

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I noticed but decided it was a tunnel network and that the small child moved slower then the adult (and they they used different routes which is why the two adults didn't meet).

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My previous comments non-withstanding...they have established that Leia can outrun a band of kidnappers and a Jedi.

[Caledonian]

I mean, we're assuming a lot about a show that isn't over. To take a minor example, it may well prove to be the case that Third Sister was smuggled through this same network and so knew where the tunnel came out once she realized they were hooked into the Path.

The traditional distinction between art and craft is that there are no rules that can be followed to create successful art, while craft is entirely about following known rules of technique. It's like cooking: whether any given batch of fudge is to your taste and 'good' doesn't depend on following any rules, while the methods for actually creating fudge are known with scientific exactness, and if the correct conditions aren't met in the correct order, the fudge fails and all you have is a sludgy, syrupy mess.

Like cooking, storytelling is both a craft and an art. There are rules and principles behind the craft: things must be established before they can pay off, and if an obstacle is surmounted by a development that doesn't have its foundation in already-established points, it's a deus ex machina, after the Greek and Roman god mechanical mannequins that were once lowered onto the stage at the end of poorly-written plays to wipe away all problems by fiat and permit a happy ending without those problems actually being resolved.

It was established that Third came from lowly circumstances, from "the gutter"; if it had been established that she actually came from Tatooine as a child and was familiar with the environment, it would make a certain amount of sense, it would be a 'payoff', that she knew a shorter route to the destination than the former Jedi who had been using the planet as a hideout and planning against discovery for a decade. It might not be good art - why is this absolute backwater the center of existence, again? - but it would have been acceptable craft.

Instead, we're presented with a deus ex machina. Just like some random trader having Luke and Anakin's lightsaber and presenting it to Rey, saying the explanation for how she got it was a story for another day... that is never told or explained.

Search your feelings: you know this to be true.

[runeghost]

Yes, that's true. I was griping as an old, disenchanted grump. It was hyperbole, not really meant to attack individual fans - but stated as one who has felt the pull. I personally have a morbid curiosity to keep consuming this product, despite long being disenchanted by the actual quality of the story telling and writing in general. I am guilty of fanboying out when the prequels came out and living in complete denial of how horrible they were until after Ep 3. I ignored the problems with Rogue One because I was so high on the visuals and the "grittiness". I kept optimistic about the sequels even after seeing Ep 7, and ignored many of its problems, because I wanted to believe so badly that someone was going to "save" Star Wars. I loved the first season of Mandalorian, and ignored a lot of its problems, for much the same reason. So I'm talking about myself when I relate to an addiction. Nostalgia for Star Wars is strong in me. I can also get this way about other stories and interesting settings, even bad ones...I will keep watching a horrible sci-fi or fantasy show, just in case the writers turn things around and reveal that they actually knew what they were doing all along, because even if it's dumb, I want to see where things are going and how the story resolves.

On Star Wars in particular, I'm much the same way. I don't have any particularly strong feelings about Obi-wan yet (though I am enjoying it). But I was talking to my wife the other day, about Star Wars (because Obi-wan was out) and we realized that we each have our own individual head-canons for Star Wars that don't necessarily map well to the entirety of what's been on screen. We remember the parts we enjoy, and elide or ignore the ones we didn't.

I don't think that's some awful horror, but neither does it say a lot for the quality of recent Star Wars universe writing. In many ways, we're watching for the character, actors, props, and stunts... But not for the story. (Certainly this was the case for Ep IX. Obi wan is still 'wait and see'. But it's a fun watch and wait.)

[ecarden]

if it had been established that she actually came from Tatooine as a child and was familiar with the environment, it would make a certain amount of sense, it would be a 'payoff', that she knew a shorter route to the destination than the former Jedi who had been using the planet as a hideout and planning against discovery for a decade. It might not be good art - why is this absolute backwater the center of existence, again? - but it would have been acceptable craft.

I mean, the planet wasn't Tattooine, so, no it wouldn't.

Instead, we're presented with a deus ex machina. Just like some random trader having Luke and Anakin's lightsaber and presenting it to Rey, saying the explanation for how she got it was a story for another day... that is never told or explained..

Except again, this isn't over, so concluding it is never told or explained is simply jumping the gun. I may well be wrong, but my read is that her recognition of the marker is signposting that she is well aware of the Path, either via hunting them, or going through them earlier.

Search your feelings: you know this to be true.

I realize the intent here is an amusing Star Wars reference, but I'll say two things about it.

First, oh boy, do I find it deeply offensive to be told what I 'actually' believe/know when it is directly contrary to my internal experience of my beliefs and knowledge.

Second, I will point out that the reference you are making casts you as Darth Vader, making a facile argument in order to tempt/coerce someone into improper behavior/beliefs.

[Saintheart]

I don't think that's some awful horror, but neither does it say a lot for the quality of recent Star Wars universe writing. In many ways, we're watching for the character, actors, props, and stunts... But not for the story.

Which is also why the OT will continue to be watched 10 to 20 years from now, and the ST, PT, and this series will not.

A good story well told ultimately wins out over effects. Effects, props, stunts, and even actors go off faster than a non-conforming tweet in Hollywood. Story is the only thing that makes people as a group come back to a film, because it's the only part of the film that really matters.

Nobody's talking about the Avatar sequels that Jimmy Cameron is finally pushing out because the original is just a CGI confection sitting stale in a candy shop full of pixels these days, and the original just doesn't have any narrative power that wasn't done better in Dances With Wolves or even The Last Samurai. He forgot how to tell a good story back in the late 90s.

[Maelstrom]

I can see and agree with plenty of the issues up to now (especially with Ep 3)... some are nitpicks, some are headscratchers, and some are just outwrite lazy writers. Funny thing is, all of this was in all the rest of the movies (including the original trilogy, though that is the 3 I still enjoy the most), so I'm a bit careful when judging too quickly.

Episode 4 on the other hand...that was just (and truly) fantastic

[Trixie_One]

I can see and agree with plenty of the issues up to now (especially with Ep 3)... some are nitpicks, some are headscratchers, and some are just outwrite lazy writers. Funny thing is, all of this was in all the rest of the movies (including the original trilogy, though that is the 3 I still enjoy the most), so I'm a bit careful when judging too quickly.

Episode 4 on the other hand...that was just (and truly) fantastic

Hah I'm pretty much the inverse. I thought the first three eps were fantastic, that all the things people have mentioned so far as flaws seeming really overblown to me, and then this ep was the one that was decidedly shaky compared to what they'd done up to that point.

Spoiler: Ep4

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The dialogue in the path camp especially where the guy just flips character mid sentence

[Saintheart]

Spoiler: Huh.

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At least the plothole frequency has dropped somewhat. And at least they tried to put justifications up for why the rescue was even possible. Even if the justifications and plot beats are pulled right out of better Star Wars films. At least they didn't have Leia saying the Path was on Dantooine. Nice to see that Ewan's mullet from Attack of the Killer Tomatoes Clones also decided to show up more or less unannounced.

Front half of the episode was solid. Back half really stretched credulity even for a Star Wars film. They couldn't resist plotting to storyboards than to a script. Sure, I like lightsaber glows too, and I like the idea of Obi-Wan going all stealth ninja too, but if the lights were that easy for him to shut off you have to wonder why he wasn't pulling that tactic out to get around others in the place as well. That sort of stuff - and the wide framing - works better for animated shows, not movies.

But anyway, it wasn't worse than Episode 3, so gets a C-.

[Maelstrom]

Hah I'm pretty much the inverse. I thought the first three eps were fantastic, that all the things people have mentioned so far as flaws seeming really overblown to me, and then this ep was the one that was decidedly shaky compared to what they'd done up to that point.

Spoiler: Ep4

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The dialogue in the path camp especially where the guy just flips character mid sentence

Spoiler: Reply to Trixie_One

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The scene with Saw Gerrera? What line? When he changed his mind to go get Leia?

Spoiler: Huh.

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...

Front half of the episode was solid. Back half really stretched credulity even for a Star Wars film. They couldn't resist plotting to storyboards than to a script. Sure, I like lightsaber glows too, and I like the idea of Obi-Wan going all stealth ninja too, but if the lights were that easy for him to shut off you have to wonder why he wasn't pulling that tactic out to get around others in the place as well. That sort of stuff - and the wide framing - works better for animated shows, not movies.

Spoiler: Reply to Saintheart

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Wait, so now we're questioning why they'd use such a common sense tactic? And since you've never seen it happen before, it should never happen? I really do not get this criticism. This not a reply to you, but comments I've seen elsewhere: heaven help us that *light* sabers actually cast light.

[Trixie_One]

Spoiler: Reply to Trixie_One

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The scene with Saw Gerrera? What line? When he changed his mind to go get Leia?

Spoiler: reply

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Let me quote the exchange which had me seriously tilting my head, and I'll use for Roken being opposed to the idea, and when he changes his mind.

Roken : " I can't shut it down. Everything runs outta here.
Obi-Wan : "Then help us to get her back. I can't lose her. You've no idea what the Empire is capable of."
Roken : "I had a wife once. I knew exactly what she was before we got married. We tried to hide it. And the Inquisitors found her anyway. So I know exactly what the Empire can do." (To note I thought this was really good up to here)
Roken : "Look, if you want my help, you got it."

See what I mean, he just flips. Felt like it was missing a line of dialogue or two from Kenobi or spy-lady about honouring her memory or something to help bring him round.

[Maelstrom]

Spoiler: reply

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Let me quote the exchange which had me seriously tilting my head, and I'll use for Roken being opposed to the idea, and when he changes his mind.

Roken : " I can't shut it down. Everything runs outta here.
Obi-Wan : "Then help us to get her back. I can't lose her. You've no idea what the Empire is capable of."
Roken : "I had a wife once. I knew exactly what she was before we got married. We tried to hide it. And the Inquisitors found her anyway. So I know exactly what the Empire can do." (To note I thought this was really good up to here)
Roken : "Look, if you want my help, you got it."

See what I mean, he just flips. Felt like it was missing a line of dialogue or two from Kenobi or spy-lady about honouring her memory or something to help bring him round.

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In fairness, Tara/Tala(?) did point out the fact that Leia knews quite a bit about their operation and from an operational point of view, that was enough to make and attempt. The part that pushed him over was the fact that he (Saw maybe? He did say 'General' Kenobi, has many of the same mannerisms, right time period, involvement with the Partisans and the mystery of being the only unnamed (speaking) character in the episode, and did Saw ever have a wife?) clearly paused in thought and made a snap decision. It's not really the type of decision you can sit and ponder (Pinky!), given the time crunch. I can see where you're coming from, but given the time episodic format and the 'in-game' situation, it did not shock me

Just rewatched the scene, and yes, unless we're speaking in covernames/codenames (which would annoy me ;) ) she calls him Roken, as you noted above. I'm good with that too, no reason not to add new characters ;)

[Dienekes]

Haven't seen the new episode yet, but as far as the teleportation goes, I thought this when I watched it:

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Seemed to be implying that the inquisitor lady recognized what she was looking at when she saw the names. Probably some memory form when she was a former jedi on the run. She recognized the tunnel, knew where it would lead, and went there. It doesn't seem so much a stretch to think she could move faster than a child, and that a secret tunnel might have to take a circuitous route to get where it's trying to go. Essentially providing another hint about her past.

Now, that whole line of thought requires some I think fair assumptions. But, if they're disproved over the course of the show, then we're in bad writing mode.

[Palanan]

Well, that was adequate Star Warsery, though not without issues.

Spoiler: The Star Wars Mini-Me

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This episode was a mini-New Hope, even down to rescuing the princess from the evil space fortress, letting them go on purpose, tracker on their ship, etc. etc.

Plus a direct callback to Fallen Order, with a Jedi holding back the seawater and then dumping it on the villain(s) to delay pursuit.

And Third Sister has absolutely nailed the Sith pose of staring after escaping enemies with her red lightsaber drawn. This is what, her second or third time by now?

Spoiler: Years Ago You Served My Father...

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Unfortunately this episode undercuts one of the most classic moments from the entire Star Wars franchise: “General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars…”

Why, if Obi-Wan is suddenly so pivotal to young Leia’s life, doesn’t she mention this rescue directly in her message to him? “Besides that, you totally rescued me ten years ago and I’ve never forgotten how awesome you are with a lightsaber. Never mind what my father says, I know from personal experience you’re the only one for the job!”

Spoiler: Final Scene

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The last scene took it somewhere else. Rarely has the emotional toll of the fight been so well presented, especially for the otherwise anonymous pilots, soldiers and other personnel of the Rebellion.

The final scene had more quiet depth than the first three episodes together, and that’s promising for where Deborah Chow may want to take this.

[Keltest]

Spoiler: Years Ago You Served My Father...

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Unfortunately this episode undercuts one of the most classic moments from the entire Star Wars franchise: “General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars…”

Why, if Obi-Wan is suddenly so pivotal to young Leia’s life, doesn’t she mention this rescue directly in her message to him? “Besides that, you totally rescued me ten years ago and I’ve never forgotten how awesome you are with a lightsaber. Never mind what my father says, I know from personal experience you’re the only one for the job!”

I mean, she could easily have assumed that he rescued her out of loyalty to her father, given that she doesnt know of her real family at all. At any rate, she's trying to play on his sense of loyalty and duty in the message, not flatter him, so the fact that she has firsthand experience with his skills isnt really germane to things.

[Anteros]

Since I don't feel like making a new Star Wars thread, I have a question about the Mandalorian since I finally got around to watching it. The first three episodes were great. Episode 4 was terrible. Where's the quality for the rest of the series? Does it continue to dip, or does it go back to a higher quality?

Spoiler: Mandalorian ep 4 spoilers

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Just to head it off because I know some people on this forum will accuse me of it, no this isn't a "girl power" complaint. The show just strayed away from the dynamic between the killer bounty hunter and the innocent baby that made the first few episodes good. Plus, the Walker just stepping into the incredibly obvious trap that it already recognized when it could have just chosen to not do so made me roll my eyes so hard I almost died. Typical Disney storytelling where the antagonists just lose for no discernable reason, and no real effort by the protagonists.

Why does Mando consider leaving the kid if he knows there are magical tracking fobs that can find him anywhere in the galaxy? He already knows those exist. Why smash the fob instead of keeping it as a way to find the kid if they get separated? The writing in this episode is just typical Disney quality. Which is to say...so bad.

[dancrilis]

Spoiler: Opinion on Most Recent Episode

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Couple of things:
1.Didn't they lock down the planet they were on last episode - how did the 'good guys' leave and why did the 'bad guys' leave.

2. I kindof loved the darkness scene where Obi-Wan killed two stormtroopers - not because it was good but because of the dialogue of the second stormtrooper it was like a guard in a computer game.
Stormtrooper: Who goes there?
Stormtrooper: Show yourself.
Stormtrooper: I'll find you.
Stormtrooper: Hmm ... must have been the wind.
Not direct quotes but I couldn't be bothered looking up what they actually said.

3. Why would the third sister think that the child smuggling ring would tell the child being smuggled the workings of their operation.

4. Obi-Wan will likely try to get Bail Organa's daughter back to Bail Organa - I am not seeing how having a tracker on a droid tells them anything more then what they already know.

There are other things but I think four is enough for now - it was watchable but I wouldn't say I am overly sold on this series.

Since I don't feel like making a new Star Wars thread, I have a question about the Mandalorian since I finally got around to watching it. The first three episodes were great. Episode 4 was terrible. Where's the quality for the rest of the series? Does it continue to dip, or does it go back to a higher quality?

Spoiler: Mandalorian ep 4 spoilers

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Just to head it off because I know some people on this forum will accuse me of it, no this isn't a "girl power" complaint. The show just strayed away from the dynamic between the killer bounty hunter and the innocent baby that made the first few episodes good. Plus, the Walker just stepping into the incredibly obvious trap that it already recognized when it could have just chosen to not do so made me roll my eyes so hard I almost died. Typical Disney storytelling where the antagonists just lose for no discernable reason, and no real effort by the protagonists.

Why does Mando consider leaving the kid if he knows there are magical tracking fobs that can find him anywhere in the galaxy? He already knows those exist. Why smash the fob instead of keeping it as a way to find the kid if they get separated? The writing in this episode is just typical Disney quality. Which is to say...so bad.

Spoiler: Opinion on Mandolarion Season One

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It has been a while but my memory was that I regarded 1, 3, 7 and 8 as fine and the rest as unneeded filler.

[Caledonian]

I can see and agree with plenty of the issues up to now (especially with Ep 3)... some are nitpicks, some are headscratchers, and some are just outwrite lazy writers.

The thing about nitpicks is that people are willing to forgive them when there are great things that outweigh them. When there's nothing but bad, minor badness isn't overlooked. It's like paper cuts - if there's nothing to distract you, they fill your consciousness, while an interesting and exciting event can cause you to not even notice them.

edit to add:

Given the long history of terrible Disney Star Wars writing, I am strongly disinclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. But even if a given event was intended to be a hint to backstory, it is extremely poor form to introduce that hint by giving the antagonist a victory with it. Especially if the hinted backstory doesn't make good sense in itself.

[Trixie_One]

Where's the quality for the rest of the series? Does it continue to dip, or does it go back to a higher quality?

Mando bounces around a ton I found so that's a hard question to pin down. I'd say it depends on much it bothers you that it's going to get much, much worse in several episodes than ep four, while also providing some episodes that are way better than the first three.

[Saintheart]

Spoiler: Reply to Saintheart

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Wait, so now we're questioning why they'd use such a common sense tactic? And since you've never seen it happen before, it should never happen? I really do not get this criticism. This not a reply to you, but comments I've seen elsewhere: heaven help us that *light* sabers actually cast light.

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Yes, we are questioning it in the context of this story. Or at least I am. Because when a writer has a character do something like that, the justification for the tactic needs to include considerations other than "because it looks cool". Also see: the debate around hyperspace ramming maneuvers in The Last Star Wars Film.

But let's talk about ninja Jedi rather than awful movies.

Have we seen Jedi use this sort of tactic - striking from darkness, igniting and extinguihsing saber blades to use the shadows to close with multiple opponents - before? I've never subjected myself to a full watch of Clone Wars and/or Rebels, but I'm sure it would've been used there at some points; however, because that's animated film, where the arena of plausibility is somewhat larger than live action, I'm deliberately setting that to one side.

Has it been used in live action before? Yep. By Ahsoka in The Mandalorian, in the first episode we saw her, s1e13. But there's a crucial difference between its use there and here, which summed up is: Ahsoka is a still-active, indeed, continually-active Force wielder (if not Jedi) who is introduced to us as a ninja-like, attack-from-hiding figure. Someone who specifically uses hit-and-run as part of her repertoire, i.e. it goes a long way toward defining her character. And most crucially, it's used when the enemy is pursuing Ahsoka, i.e. where she has already established and controls the battleground. It's the sort of tactic where we expect some sort of foresight or planning from the character using it, and, since it involves being able to see when the enemy can't, it implies a significant degree of Force use.

Ben Kenobi is not that character. Not the Ben we've seen in the previous three episodes or indeed earlier in the same episode (and not on the Obi-Wan that we've seen in the live action films to a large extent either). At this point in the series he's still a broken-down figure who's having trouble pushing or pulling stuff around, or even conjuring phantom sounds. If he's operating in sheer darkness, then presumably he's using the Force to overcome the same blindness as he plunges the stormtroopers into. Which is to say this scene implies Ben's control of the Force is significantly better than it is even in other, later scenes. And that's also putting aside that this sort of slick tactical thinking doesn't gel with the slightly stumblebum, reactive Ben we're seeing in the episode itself. Where are the cues from earlier in the story that imply Ben would consider this tactic? I mean, even one scene. Even if it's just changing the scene where Ben is shakily pushing and pulling a doodad around to Ben shakily turning a light on or off, at least it'd be something that keeps Shinobi-Wan from coming out of nowhere in the script.

Second problem is precisely as you said in your remark: it's a "common sense" tactic. I agree, if stormtroopers are significantly hampered by it, then it's totally a common sense tactic to use. But if it's that common sense, then why is this the only place where Ben thinks to use it? If the lights can be put out that easily, and stormtroopers are basically helpless in the dark (something I'll get to in a second) then why doesn't Ben use that tactic anywhere else in the episode? The simple answer is: becoz it's kool and looks great in a storyboard and as part of a pitch to executives who aren't sunk into the franchise like the audience is. Not as good storytelling.

Third problem is that it makes stormtroopers even less competent, because the first question I had when that scene went through was: you're telling me stormtroopers' helmets have no image enhancers at all, no infrared vision, to deal with nighttime combat? And unfortunately, at least according to the nerds who think Visual Guides count as canon and not marketing, the answer is that they do. The armor contains gear that assists the wearer in seeing in darkness and smoke.

As others are saying, a plot hole's forgivable if the rest of the story is strong enough that you can ignore it. But this show is flat-out stealing from better Star Wars stories and contemptuously assuming the audience will just accept it as a "homage" or "callback" or some idiocy. And simultaneously it's doing all it can to test the audience's suspension of disbelief. Most Star Wars stories don't stand up too well to subjecting them to logic, but this show seems determined to fly as close as possible to the wire of rubbish plotting and then accuse its audience of "nitpicking" when it points out serious flaws.

[Anteros]

Mando bounces around a ton I found so that's a hard question to pin down. I'd say it depends on much it bothers you that it's going to get much, much worse in several episodes than ep four, while also providing some episodes that are way better than the first three.

Yeah, 5 was filler but decent enough as a standalone. I'm about ten minutes into episode 6 and holy **** it's terrible. Who approved those costumes? I've seen literal Halloween costumes that look better than generic edgy/crazy Twilek lady, and the others aren't much better. Monsters on Buffy looked more realistic than this 25 years ago.

Also, Bill Burr is not an actor. Stop it.

Edit: Thoughts as the episode goes along.

Spoiler: Episode 6 if anyone cares.

Show

Why didn't the ship call for help as soon as the shooting started? The whole standoff scene makes absolutely no sense.

It's a good thing they brought the Mandalorian along since they're all wildly incompetent. It's less clear why he's willing to work with them. I guess I can buy that he's desperate.

The hallway fight was decent, although there's no compelling reason he should have ran in and fought all the droids with a knife instead of just shooting them after magically teleporting behind them.

Apparently futuristic attack droids explode into a cloud of debris if you lightly toss them down the hall. They just don't make them like they used to I guess.

The betrayal was obvious from a mile away. Good thing a random droid was still doing routine patrols with the key well after the firefight started and the distress signal went out.

The second half of the episode is better than the first. I guess the good thing about having a bunch of terrible and annoying characters is that it's nice to see them get picked off. Not sure when the Mandalorian suddenly turned into Batman though. No real complaints about the ending though. Bill Burr actually did a better job than expected.

Edit again after finishing binging the first season: I've changed my mind about these shows. They're not supposed to be taken seriously. They're live action kid's cartoons. You're not supposed to expect scenes to make sense or characters to be consistent. We treat them like they're adult entertainment, but they're closer to something like Paw Patrol. You wouldn't stop and examine the motives of Peppa Pig or her antagonists, and nothing I've seen from Star Wars for the last 20 years leads me to believe it should be held to any higher standard than that.

[warty goblin]

All caught up again, I liked this episode better than the last. The action scenes still don't have great internal logic, but whatever.

Spoiler

Show

I've concluded that what this show is mostly interested in doing is echoing or redoing particular scenes from the OT and PT. This isn't (quite) the tedious worship of the JJ Abrams ST movies, since it has interests that extend slightly beyond mindless recreation for the nostalgia buzz, though it certainly verges on that at times.

What I think saves it from being that completely boring is that it uses these recreations as a means of examining how the PT characters morph into the OT characters. Last week was redoing Mustafar with the roles and emotions flipped - Obi-Wan getting burned instead of Anakin, but being driven by fear instead of rage. The key line there was "I am what you made me" which of course is true in reverse as well. The broken Obi-Wan of the first few episodes was who Anakin made him, which is then burned away and healed, returning Obi-Wan to his old self.

This episode was obviously the Death Star rescue from ANH, complete with the tracking beacon. We get a few things here, Obi-Wan is back in basically Clone Wars mode, not yet the effortlessly illusive and tricky Alec Guinness version of the character. We see that Vader is still the apprentice, since he picks up the tracking beacon idea from his own follower.

At this point I expect a climatic confrontation between Obi-Wan and Vader where Vader loses, and Obi-Wan figures out Qui-Gon's trick of persisting after death. Vader draws the wrong lesson from the fight, and thus remains the pupil all the way until ANH, when he thinks he can win by wacking people with his lightsaber.

It's a pity the internal logic isn't tighter, because I actually kinda like this metatextual tweaking of things as a means of showing character across the franchise. But the kinda eh direction of the actual plot bits definitely holds it back at this point.

And yes the glowstick lightsabers still look bad. Less bad here, but still bad.

[Thrudd]

Spoiler

Show

Yes, we are questioning it in the context of this story. Or at least I am. Because when a writer has a character do something like that, the justification for the tactic needs to include considerations other than "because it looks cool". Also see: the debate around hyperspace ramming maneuvers in The Last Star Wars Film.

But let's talk about ninja Jedi rather than awful movies.

Have we seen Jedi use this sort of tactic - striking from darkness, igniting and extinguihsing saber blades to use the shadows to close with multiple opponents - before? I've never subjected myself to a full watch of Clone Wars and/or Rebels, but I'm sure it would've been used there at some points; however, because that's animated film, where the arena of plausibility is somewhat larger than live action, I'm deliberately setting that to one side.

Has it been used in live action before? Yep. By Ahsoka in The Mandalorian, in the first episode we saw her, s1e13. But there's a crucial difference between its use there and here, which summed up is: Ahsoka is a still-active, indeed, continually-active Force wielder (if not Jedi) who is introduced to us as a ninja-like, attack-from-hiding figure. Someone who specifically uses hit-and-run as part of her repertoire, i.e. it goes a long way toward defining her character. And most crucially, it's used when the enemy is pursuing Ahsoka, i.e. where she has already established and controls the battleground. It's the sort of tactic where we expect some sort of foresight or planning from the character using it, and, since it involves being able to see when the enemy can't, it implies a significant degree of Force use.

Ben Kenobi is not that character. Not the Ben we've seen in the previous three episodes or indeed earlier in the same episode (and not on the Obi-Wan that we've seen in the live action films to a large extent either). At this point in the series he's still a broken-down figure who's having trouble pushing or pulling stuff around, or even conjuring phantom sounds. If he's operating in sheer darkness, then presumably he's using the Force to overcome the same blindness as he plunges the stormtroopers into. Which is to say this scene implies Ben's control of the Force is significantly better than it is even in other, later scenes. And that's also putting aside that this sort of slick tactical thinking doesn't gel with the slightly stumblebum, reactive Ben we're seeing in the episode itself. Where are the cues from earlier in the story that imply Ben would consider this tactic? I mean, even one scene. Even if it's just changing the scene where Ben is shakily pushing and pulling a doodad around to Ben shakily turning a light on or off, at least it'd be something that keeps Shinobi-Wan from coming out of nowhere in the script.

Second problem is precisely as you said in your remark: it's a "common sense" tactic. I agree, if stormtroopers are significantly hampered by it, then it's totally a common sense tactic to use. But if it's that common sense, then why is this the only place where Ben thinks to use it? If the lights can be put out that easily, and stormtroopers are basically helpless in the dark (something I'll get to in a second) then why doesn't Ben use that tactic anywhere else in the episode? The simple answer is: becoz it's kool and looks great in a storyboard and as part of a pitch to executives who aren't sunk into the franchise like the audience is. Not as good storytelling.

Third problem is that it makes stormtroopers even less competent, because the first question I had when that scene went through was: you're telling me stormtroopers' helmets have no image enhancers at all, no infrared vision, to deal with nighttime combat? And unfortunately, at least according to the nerds who think Visual Guides count as canon and not marketing, the answer is that they do. The armor contains gear that assists the wearer in seeing in darkness and smoke.

As others are saying, a plot hole's forgivable if the rest of the story is strong enough that you can ignore it. But this show is flat-out stealing from better Star Wars stories and contemptuously assuming the audience will just accept it as a "homage" or "callback" or some idiocy. And simultaneously it's doing all it can to test the audience's suspension of disbelief. Most Star Wars stories don't stand up too well to subjecting them to logic, but this show seems determined to fly as close as possible to the wire of rubbish plotting and then accuse its audience of "nitpicking" when it points out serious flaws.

Yeah, I guess we need to accept that Stormtroopers, and really all bad guys in Star Wars, have always been and were always intended to be completely incompetent. It makes writing the story a lot easier, when it isn't necessary to come up with clever ways for the heroes to win. Magic powers and tech only work when the story needs them to, and are ignored at times when they would require some thought to deal with or would make things too hard for the heroes to succeed.