Obi-Wan Kenobi

[Caledonian]

I don't agree that something intended for kids has permission to be terrible. There are great kids shows that adults can also enjoy and appreciate, and it took real thought and effort to get them that way.

It may be easier to get away with making terrible stuff for kids, because the kids are less experienced and less critical. But that's no excuse.

[Peelee]

Yeah, I guess we need to accept that Stormtroopers, and really all bad guys in Star Wars, have always been and were always intended to be completely incompetent.

I've got some bad news for you about the original trilogy...

[Caledonian]

That's a major failure of the art. It's one of the ways that Lucas revealed himself to not actually be a very good filmmaker.

See also: Seth Skorkowski: Why Stormtrooper are Badasses

[Thrudd]

I've got some bad news for you about the original trilogy...

That's why I said it has "always" been that way. I definitely know this to be the case in the OT - hence the ubiquitous joke that all Stormtroopers have horrible aim. The empire also has horrible tactics - why do they try to arrest the rebels on Endor instead of gunning them all down immediately, when they are supposed to be exterminating the rebellion once and for all? And then, in the middle of a pitched battle, two of them try to again arrest Han and Leia instead of just shooting them? It seems like most of the imperials are actually pretty good guys. They really don't want to hurt anyone, if they don't have to. Even when the Emperor himself orders them to attack, most of them are hesitant to actually carry out his orders.
"Why are we torturing this poor teenaged girl? Isn't she a senator, too? And now another kid is here, running around trying to save her? And an old dude? Let's let them go, man. This is Vader's thing, and he's weird. Just kind-of shoot in their direction, so it looks like we're trying."
"They're shooting back! They killed TK421!"
"Yeah, but if we don't look like were trying, Vader's going to kill us all himself, so...sorry TK421..."

I know, I know, "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are this precise." And they kill several rebels in the very first scene. But again...maybe they are that precise, they just really don't want to hurt Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, etc. Maybe by the time of Endor, most of them were secretly on the side of the Rebellion, or at least wanted the Emperor and Vader gone. I can certainly believe that about the officers...lol

[Peelee]

That's why I said it has "always" been that way. I definitely know this to be the case in the OT - hence the ubiquitous joke that all Stormtroopers have horrible aim.

I feel you didn't quite get that I was talking about how they are incredibly efficient in the OT and those jokes are stupid and wrong.

[Thrudd]

I feel you didn't quite get that I was talking about how they are incredibly efficient in the OT and those jokes are stupid and wrong.

Lol what? Did you miss the parts where good guys are standing in the open with no cover, with several troopers shooting at them (who also rarely take cover) and never get hit by a single shot? I know, they've all been instructed to let the good guys go in the Death Star, maybe, so they can track them to the base...but why don't they kill the rebels on Endor? Why say "freeze! Put your hands up!" instead of just shooting them in the back? Or stunning them?

They have a stun setting which seems incredibly useful but is only used once in the films.
What happened on Bespin? If they want to capture Leia and Chewie, for interrogation or whatever, they could have stunned them and brought them to Vader's ship. There's no reason to have left Chewie conscious after he started throwing guys around. Sure, Wookiees are tough, but he could have been stunned multiple times.

Maybe they are ship gunners and not stormtroopers, technically, but why do they let any escape pods go, when it was clearly the policy to blast them so no survivors could escape? Were they running low on ammo, or something?

I do like the idea that their armor is actually better than it looks. Maybe most of the troopers who got shot didn't actually die, they just fell down and pretended to be unconscious for a while. It's not like we ever seen anyone cleaning up a battlefield. Because again...they were actually good dudes who didn't really want to stop the rebels lol. They know their armor would protect them, they intentionally missed, and refused to use the stun setting so the heroes wouldn't be stopped.

[Peelee]

Lol what? Did you miss the parts where good guys are standing in the open with no cover, with several troopers shooting at them (who also rarely take cover) and never get hit by a single shot? I know, they've all been instructed to let the good guys go in the Death Star, maybe, so they can track them to the base...but why don't they kill the rebels on Endor? Why say "freeze! Put your hands up!" instead of just shooting them in the back? Or stunning them?

They have a stun setting which seems incredibly useful but is only used once in the films.
What happened on Bespin? If they want to capture Leia and Chewie, for interrogation or whatever, they could have stunned them and brought them to Vader's ship. There's no reason to have left Chewie conscious after he started throwing guys around. Sure, Wookiees are tough, but he could have been stunned multiple times.

Maybe they are ship gunners and not stormtroopers, technically, but why do they let any escape pods go, when it was clearly the policy to blast them so no survivors could escape? Were they running low on ammo, or something?

I do like the idea that their armor is actually better than it looks. Maybe most of the troopers who got shot didn't actually die, they just fell down and pretended to be unconscious for a while. It's not like we ever seen anyone cleaning up a battlefield. Because again...they were actually good dudes who didn't really want to stop the rebels lol. They know their armor would protect them, they intentionally missed, and refused to use the stun setting so the heroes wouldn't be stopped.

On Endor, are you talking about the part where Han and Leia are explicitly taking cover in the door frame, and where Leia gets shot?

They don't kill Vader's prisoners, like Chewbacca, probably because they want to continue living. Vader wants them alive so they remain alive.

For the escape pod, those are restricted areas for droids, as C-3PO explicitly said in the film. R2 is very unusual for a droid and does things other droids don't, which is also explicitly shown in the film. An escape pod that is off limits to droids, with no life signs, which presumably malfunctioned, would only help the story that there was an accident and all aboard were killed, which is explicitly Vader's cover story. Notwithstanding that this wasn't even Stormtroopers, I should note.

Not to mention that your insistence that the troopers were secretly the good guys and helped the heroes escape is said by both Leia and Tarkin to be engineered by the Empire as a trap, which also worked. The Empire found the rebel's secret base.

[dancrilis]

Lol what? Did you miss the parts where good guys are standing in the open with no cover, with several troopers shooting at them (who also rarely take cover) and never get hit by a single shot? I know, they've all been instructed to let the good guys go in the Death Star, maybe, so they can track them to the base...but why don't they kill the rebels on Endor?

Because Star Wars is possibly the best film ever and as such any other film set in its universe has to be less good - Return of the Jedi was not as good as The Empire Strikes Back and The Empire Strikes Back was not as good as Star Wars, given that other films cannot compete with the original they try to build themselves up by tearing it down.

Maybe they are ship gunners and not stormtroopers, technically, but why do they let any escape pods go

Who knows - energy isn't free, maybe droids were considered largely non-relevant (which goes through most other star wars media also) and so not considered - frankly if they had caught Leia's ship anywhere else in the galaxy (or likely even the star system) letting the droids go would have likely been fine.

Edit:

R2 is very unusual for a droid and does things other droids don't, which is also explicitly shown in the film.

I will quote this to say it is also fair to note.

[Saintheart]

They're good movies. I recommend checking them out sometime.

Well, at least we're relieved of the burden of watching ANH, because Episode 4 of this TV series was a community theatre re-enactment of it.

As for the wider argument along the broad lines of 'this show is acceptable the original movies were for kids and have problems with their logic too', all I'm going to say is that zircon does not become more valuable because a diamond has a couple of flaws. EDIT: And I might be straw manning to some extent there. All I'm saying is that this TV series doesn't even come close to matching the storytelling standards of the OT, let alone an "adult, serious" film.

[Thrudd]

Going by your arguments, I'm going to assume you haven't watched the movies and are just repeating whay you've heard others talk about.

On Endor, are you talking about the part where Han and Leia are explicitly taking cover in the door frame, and where Leia gets shot? Because it sounds like you're describing that scene, but wrongly.

They don't kill Vader's prisoners, like Chewbacca, probably because they want to continue living. Vader wants them alive so they remain alive. Again, watching the movies should clear this up.

For the escape pod, those are restricted areas for droids, as C-3PO explicitly said in the film. R2 is very unusual for a droid and does things other droids don't, which is also explicitly shown in the film. Yet again, actually watching it would help in this matter. An escape pod that is off limits to droids, with no life signs, which presumably malfunctioned, would only help the story that there was an accident and all aboard were killed, which is explicitly Vader's cover story.

Not to mention that your insistence that the troopers were secretly the good guys and helped the heroes escape is said by both Leia and Tarkin to be engineered by the Empire as a trap, which also worked. The Empire found the rebel's secret base. Watching the movie makes this quite clear.

They're good movies. I recommend checking them out sometime.

lol, ok dude. I used to be like this, too, because I love Star Wars so much. In denial. My theory is a joke, obviously. It clearly isn't the intent of the film makers. What we see is the result of scripting that is not concerned with internal consistency, nothing more. We have all thought about what's going on in the Star Wars universe way more than Lucas or anyone else who is making the films and shows now. The explanations we come up with are nothing more than valiant attempts to find some sort of order to this setting, when really everything we see happens the way it does, for the most part, because the plot needs it to, not due to any organically arising cause or condition in the setting.

Remember when two troopers completely get the drop on Han and Leia, holding them at gunpoint with Han's back turned, and instead of shooting or even stunning, say "Freeze! Put your hands up!", in the middle of a battle that was supposed to end the rebellion? Stupid tactics. Remember before the battle started, and they rounded up the rebels instead of executing most of them on the spot? Stupid. They are engaged in all-out war, their opponents do not hesitate to shoot to kill...Han even kills a guy while they are trying to arrest him, he's surrounded by troopers and officers, why doesn't he get shot, not even stunned? These are the most restrained soldiers I've ever seen.

On the Star Destroyer, they had to inform Vader that an escape pod jettisoned, he didn't know about it. It really doesn't seem like part of his plan...or else they would have said something like "Don't shoot that pod! We've been instructed to let empty ones go, it's part of Vader's plan."

Why does nobody ever use a stun blast again, after the first film, whenever they are supposedly trying to capture people? Every shot in Bespin should have been stun, if they were so adamant about not hurting Vader's captives. They could have knocked them out before Han even went into the carbon freeze, and carried them to the ship.

The point is, the bad guys are only as smart as the script writers and the genre demand. They have access to certain tech and magic powers only when the plot wants them to, and forget to use them when the plot needs the good guys to win. What happened to the tractor beams, when they wanted to catch the Falcon in ESB? The Falcon is as close or closer to the Star Destroyer than Leia's ship was in Ep IV., at several points. It should have been trivial to grab them, especially during that period when Han and Chewie weren't even piloting, but trying to fix the hyperdrive! Oh, I guess that particular Star Destroyer's tractor beams were down for maintenance during that period, right? Or the Falcon has some tech installed after Ep4, that Han never mentioned, that protects them from tractor beams, now, and nobody on Vader's ship remarks on it. We must be told how scary and powerful the Empire is, but rarely get to see it, because then the good guys wouldn't be able to win (without a level of creativity and thoughtful planning that the film makers are incapable of or unwilling to engage in).

Once again - I LOVE Star Wars! I grew up watching the OT, repeatedly. I ran the WEG RPG in the 90's and read several other works of the EU from that period, all the way through the prequels and the comics that came out at that time. I'm still watching these stupid shows because I just can't let it go. But I'm not deluding myself that these are masterpieces of fiction...they are wonderfully fun cinema, with charm and fantastic visual effects and scores, and endearing characters. They just aren't good sci-fi. We absolutely aren't supposed to think about them. The film makers certainly didn't. Just soak in the visuals and action and mood- that's what they want us to do.

[Anteros]

I don't agree that something intended for kids has permission to be terrible. There are great kids shows that adults can also enjoy and appreciate, and it took real thought and effort to get them that way.

It may be easier to get away with making terrible stuff for kids, because the kids are less experienced and less critical. But that's no excuse.

Well...I don't know what else we're suppose to conclude after watching these shows other than that we're not supposed to think about them. When you have things like characters simply standing in the open shooting at dozens of enemies that surround them, yet no one targets them until the named enemy. Or Storm Troopers intentionally clustering around the armed explosive device. Or characters teleporting into position as the plot needs. The list goes on.

And these are supposedly the good episodes out of the most widely praised series they've released. I can't imagine how bad some of the bad ones are.

[warty goblin]

The rank and file soldiers in SW have always been minimally competent to say the least. I think it stands out less in the older stuff for a few reasons.

Firstly the OT had the immense benefit of coming out before the internet, where a person could watch and enjoy a movie and not immediately go online and get into exciting arguments about the correct way to dissect it under a surgical microscope.

Secondly all the Lucas SW films are shot like older movies, with fairly long takes, a more static camera, and generally less overtuned fight choreography. If you have one group of dudes shooting at another group of dudes, you think "oh, gunfight", and even if the tactics suck it still works as a scene. If one dude kills four other via an eighteen move combo that requires at least one guy to stand around holding his butt for 30 seconds so he can get his ass kicked in sequence, you might think the hero is a badass, or you might think the henchmen suck. Either way it works very differently as a scene than some guys shooting at each other.

The Lucas SW movies also are pretty clearly made as action adventure stories; yes even the prequels. Good pulp action adventure is gripping and fast paced, but if you're watching it expecting some sort of documentary on a fantasy universe you're doing it wrong. But thanks to two decades of internet culture developing nitpicking plot holes into a (very dumb) art with very high social rewards and cultural cache, it's very hard to watch something contemporary and not do that.

If Star Wars had never happened and somebody released ANH today we'd have a 45 page thread tearing it to shreds inside of two weeks.

[Anteros]

If Star Wars had never happened and somebody released ANH today we'd have a 45 page thread tearing it to shreds inside of two weeks.

Sure, but that's a 50+ year old movie. Cinema has evolved since then. Star Wars hasn't.

[Imbalance]

Sure, but that's a 50+ year old movie. Cinema has evolved since then. Star Wars hasn't.

*checks calendar
*does math
*sighs in relief
*frets about retirement anyway...

You are right about evolution, though. Sadly, parts of these Kenobi eps look like they're de-evolving.

Spoiler: KOTOR

Show

There was a fun underwater base level in the old Bioware RPG Knights of the Old Republic that part iv felt really reminiscent of. Beyond that I have another list of things that make little to no sense even in established context, but it's not even worth the effort to complain.

[Saintheart]

You are right about evolution, though. Sadly, parts of these Kenobi eps look like they're de-evolving.

Spoiler: KOTOR

Show

There was a fun underwater base level in the old Bioware RPG Knights of the Old Republic that part iv felt really reminiscent of. Beyond that I have another list of things that make little to no sense even in established context, but it's not even worth the effort to complain.

Spoiler

Show

You want even more reminiscence and closer to flat-out plagiarism, try the ending levels from the Jedi Fallen Order videogame. Which very sadly has a better story than this show does.

[Caledonian]

Because Star Wars is possibly the best film ever and as such any other film set in its universe has to be less good - Return of the Jedi was not as good as The Empire Strikes Back and The Empire Strikes Back was not as good as Star Wars, given that other films cannot compete with the original they try to build themselves up by tearing it down.

ESB was much, much better than ANH. And if you exclude the audience-pandering Ewok segments, RotJ was also better than ANH.

Bwa?

[dancrilis]

ESB was much, much better than ANH. And if you exclude the audience-pandering Ewok segments, RotJ was also better than ANH.

Well we disagree on that - the twist ending is kindof what makes Empire and that was only possible by turning Obi-Wan into a manipulative liar.

The first movie was great in its own right Empire relies on you having watched the first movie to really care about it - if your first exposure to Star Wars was Empire I doubt there would be much to care about, and the twist actively shrunk the universe by tying everything to the main character (Luke) which is still an issue with much of the rest of Star Wars media.

[Caledonian]

Disney Finally Broke Me

When you just churn out material to fill space, it's almost inevitable that none of it will be very good.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Spoiler

Show

Yes, we are questioning it in the context of this story. Or at least I am. Because when a writer has a character do something like that, the justification for the tactic needs to include considerations other than "because it looks cool". Also see: the debate around hyperspace ramming maneuvers in The Last Star Wars Film.

But let's talk about ninja Jedi rather than awful movies.

Have we seen Jedi use this sort of tactic - striking from darkness, igniting and extinguihsing saber blades to use the shadows to close with multiple opponents - before? I've never subjected myself to a full watch of Clone Wars and/or Rebels, but I'm sure it would've been used there at some points; however, because that's animated film, where the arena of plausibility is somewhat larger than live action, I'm deliberately setting that to one side.

Has it been used in live action before? Yep. By Ahsoka in The Mandalorian, in the first episode we saw her, s1e13. But there's a crucial difference between its use there and here, which summed up is: Ahsoka is a still-active, indeed, continually-active Force wielder (if not Jedi) who is introduced to us as a ninja-like, attack-from-hiding figure. Someone who specifically uses hit-and-run as part of her repertoire, i.e. it goes a long way toward defining her character. And most crucially, it's used when the enemy is pursuing Ahsoka, i.e. where she has already established and controls the battleground. It's the sort of tactic where we expect some sort of foresight or planning from the character using it, and, since it involves being able to see when the enemy can't, it implies a significant degree of Force use.

Ben Kenobi is not that character. Not the Ben we've seen in the previous three episodes or indeed earlier in the same episode (and not on the Obi-Wan that we've seen in the live action films to a large extent either). At this point in the series he's still a broken-down figure who's having trouble pushing or pulling stuff around, or even conjuring phantom sounds. If he's operating in sheer darkness, then presumably he's using the Force to overcome the same blindness as he plunges the stormtroopers into. Which is to say this scene implies Ben's control of the Force is significantly better than it is even in other, later scenes. And that's also putting aside that this sort of slick tactical thinking doesn't gel with the slightly stumblebum, reactive Ben we're seeing in the episode itself. Where are the cues from earlier in the story that imply Ben would consider this tactic? I mean, even one scene. Even if it's just changing the scene where Ben is shakily pushing and pulling a doodad around to Ben shakily turning a light on or off, at least it'd be something that keeps Shinobi-Wan from coming out of nowhere in the script.

Second problem is precisely as you said in your remark: it's a "common sense" tactic. I agree, if stormtroopers are significantly hampered by it, then it's totally a common sense tactic to use. But if it's that common sense, then why is this the only place where Ben thinks to use it? If the lights can be put out that easily, and stormtroopers are basically helpless in the dark (something I'll get to in a second) then why doesn't Ben use that tactic anywhere else in the episode? The simple answer is: becoz it's kool and looks great in a storyboard and as part of a pitch to executives who aren't sunk into the franchise like the audience is. Not as good storytelling.

Third problem is that it makes stormtroopers even less competent, because the first question I had when that scene went through was: you're telling me stormtroopers' helmets have no image enhancers at all, no infrared vision, to deal with nighttime combat? And unfortunately, at least according to the nerds who think Visual Guides count as canon and not marketing, the answer is that they do. The armor contains gear that assists the wearer in seeing in darkness and smoke.

As others are saying, a plot hole's forgivable if the rest of the story is strong enough that you can ignore it. But this show is flat-out stealing from better Star Wars stories and contemptuously assuming the audience will just accept it as a "homage" or "callback" or some idiocy. And simultaneously it's doing all it can to test the audience's suspension of disbelief. Most Star Wars stories don't stand up too well to subjecting them to logic, but this show seems determined to fly as close as possible to the wire of rubbish plotting and then accuse its audience of "nitpicking" when it points out serious flaws.

Consider this to make you feel better: Yesterday at work I did some really good things, some meh things and well nothing incompetent.

Also consider even the great Dan Marino threw interceptions in games he won for his team.

Consider rolling for hits in D&D. Every so often a level one character nails a 20 on a check, save or attack that a level ten character fumbles.

Life isn't always as linear as you'd like.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

lol, ok dude. I used to be like this, too, because I love Star Wars so much. In denial. My theory is a joke, obviously. It clearly isn't the intent of the film makers. What we see is the result of scripting that is not concerned with internal consistency, nothing more. We have all thought about what's going on in the Star Wars universe way more than Lucas or anyone else who is making the films and shows now. The explanations we come up with are nothing more than valiant attempts to find some sort of order to this setting, when really everything we see happens the way it does, for the most part, because the plot needs it to, not due to any organically arising cause or condition in the setting.

Remember when two troopers completely get the drop on Han and Leia, holding them at gunpoint with Han's back turned, and instead of shooting or even stunning, say "Freeze! Put your hands up!", in the middle of a battle that was supposed to end the rebellion? Stupid tactics. Remember before the battle started, and they rounded up the rebels instead of executing most of them on the spot? Stupid. They are engaged in all-out war, their opponents do not hesitate to shoot to kill...Han even kills a guy while they are trying to arrest him, he's surrounded by troopers and officers, why doesn't he get shot, not even stunned? These are the most restrained soldiers I've ever seen.

On the Star Destroyer, they had to inform Vader that an escape pod jettisoned, he didn't know about it. It really doesn't seem like part of his plan...or else they would have said something like "Don't shoot that pod! We've been instructed to let empty ones go, it's part of Vader's plan."

Why does nobody ever use a stun blast again, after the first film, whenever they are supposedly trying to capture people? Every shot in Bespin should have been stun, if they were so adamant about not hurting Vader's captives. They could have knocked them out before Han even went into the carbon freeze, and carried them to the ship.

The point is, the bad guys are only as smart as the script writers and the genre demand. They have access to certain tech and magic powers only when the plot wants them to, and forget to use them when the plot needs the good guys to win. What happened to the tractor beams, when they wanted to catch the Falcon in ESB? The Falcon is as close or closer to the Star Destroyer than Leia's ship was in Ep IV., at several points. It should have been trivial to grab them, especially during that period when Han and Chewie weren't even piloting, but trying to fix the hyperdrive! Oh, I guess that particular Star Destroyer's tractor beams were down for maintenance during that period, right? Or the Falcon has some tech installed after Ep4, that Han never mentioned, that protects them from tractor beams, now, and nobody on Vader's ship remarks on it. We must be told how scary and powerful the Empire is, but rarely get to see it, because then the good guys wouldn't be able to win (without a level of creativity and thoughtful planning that the film makers are incapable of or unwilling to engage in).

Once again - I LOVE Star Wars! I grew up watching the OT, repeatedly. I ran the WEG RPG in the 90's and read several other works of the EU from that period, all the way through the prequels and the comics that came out at that time. I'm still watching these stupid shows because I just can't let it go. But I'm not deluding myself that these are masterpieces of fiction...they are wonderfully fun cinema, with charm and fantastic visual effects and scores, and endearing characters. They just aren't good sci-fi. We absolutely aren't supposed to think about them. The film makers certainly didn't. Just soak in the visuals and action and mood- that's what they want us to do.

Check out this nonsense, the queen's recently deceased husband was even there:
https://youtu.be/sV4lZJGsMm4

Then draw lines between the Battle of Britain, Taranto and Pearl Harbor. Then Savo island if that seems like a conspiracy.

Life is just strange sometimes.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Disney Finally Broke Me

When you just churn out material to fill space, it's almost inevitable that none of it will be very good.

Are some of The Hotel Transylvania movies letting you down? Kenobi has been pretty good in my opinion.

[warty goblin]

Are some of The Hotel Transylvania movies letting you down? Kenobi has been pretty good in my opinion.

I think it kinda depends on what you're looking for. If you're hoping for best ever epoch-defining stuff it's gonna disappoint. If you're good with a kinda middle of the road piece of goofy space fantasy with good production values and above average acting it's pretty solid. Which, in a way, is far more faithful to the pulp sci-fi that OG Star Wars pulls from so heavily than... whatever the hell people seem to expect from Star Wars.

[Caledonian]

I'm very fond of pulp adventure. It usually has more thought put into it than any DSW material has. The truly bad stuff has been mercifully screened out of memory by the passage of time. Like this stuff will.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

That's why I said it has "always" been that way. I definitely know this to be the case in the OT - hence the ubiquitous joke that all Stormtroopers have horrible aim. The empire also has horrible tactics - why do they try to arrest the rebels on Endor instead of gunning them all down immediately, when they are supposed to be exterminating the rebellion once and for all? And then, in the middle of a pitched battle, two of them try to again arrest Han and Leia instead of just shooting them? It seems like most of the imperials are actually pretty good guys. They really don't want to hurt anyone, if they don't have to. Even when the Emperor himself orders them to attack, most of them are hesitant to actually carry out his orders.
"Why are we torturing this poor teenaged girl? Isn't she a senator, too? And now another kid is here, running around trying to save her? And an old dude? Let's let them go, man. This is Vader's thing, and he's weird. Just kind-of shoot in their direction, so it looks like we're trying."
"They're shooting back! They killed TK421!"
"Yeah, but if we don't look like were trying, Vader's going to kill us all himself, so...sorry TK421..."

I know, I know, "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are this precise." And they kill several rebels in the very first scene. But again...maybe they are that precise, they just really don't want to hurt Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, etc. Maybe by the time of Endor, most of them were secretly on the side of the Rebellion, or at least wanted the Emperor and Vader gone. I can certainly believe that about the officers...lol

Maybe Ben was more sarcastic then we thought. I don't remember the visuals, were there extra shots all over the place?

[Saintheart]

Consider this to make you feel better: Yesterday at work I did some really good things, some meh things and well nothing incompetent.

Also consider even the great Dan Marino threw interceptions in games he won for his team.

Consider rolling for hits in D&D. Every so often a level one character nails a 20 on a check, save or attack that a level ten character fumbles.

Life isn't always as linear as you'd like.

To this patronising remark which seems rather more aimed at my character rather than the critique, I will only paraphrase what I said earlier: if this is all the audience expects of Disney, why should the Mouse do any better? Why would it change from its default attitude of contempt for its audience, producing work that's enough to get you to pay your monthly subscription but not enough to move you or make you remember it?

Audiences have been giving Disney mulligans on Star Wars for 10 years now. Isn't it time to ask one of the biggest, best-resourced entertainment corporations on the planet to come up with a good piece of art in the franchise, in return for all the money that's it's been paid to produce bad pieces?

[warty goblin]

Audiences have been giving Disney mulligans on Star Wars for 10 years now. Isn't it time to ask one of the biggest, best-resourced entertainment corporations on the planet to come up with a good piece of art in the franchise, in return for all the money that's it's been paid to produce bad pieces?

I don't expect good art from giant faceless corporations, still less from a corporation as hellbent on cynical brand management as Disney.

I also don't expect a lot of art out of Star Wars, which by volume of crap produced is mostly interested in marketing toys and unnecessary spinoffs and garish branded junk, and has been for years. Sure I'll defend some aspects of Revenge of the Sith as having artistic merit, but aside from that it's never been like SW is particularly challenging or emotionally complex. Even in the realm of pulp sci-fantasy most SW is kinda like the easy listening cover of the rock original.

And I don't expect a lot of artistic value out of streaming TV. It may happen on occasion, but the number one goal of the modern streaming platform is to keep shoveling out enough product for half asleep people to watch at the end of the day they'll feel the subscription is worth it. This is not a medium where remotely complex or challenging things thrive.

Welcome to the future, where everything will be mulched into #content.

[Peelee]

lol, ok dude.

With this as the quality of a response to any points I could lay down, I don't think it's worth my time to continue trying to set out arguments you refuse to accept. If you want to think Stormtroopers are on the heroes side by whatever tortuous logic you use, you do you.

[Thrudd]

With this as the quality of a response to any points I could lay down, I don't think it's worth my time to continue trying to set out arguments you refuse to accept. If you want to think Stormtroopers are on the heroes side by whatever tortuous logic you use, you do you.

Lol you didn't even read what I wrote. I said it was a joke. Obviously. Nobody could really think they were supposed to be heroes. It was hyperbole to point out how silly things in these movies really are, if we look too hard.

[Saintheart]

I also don't expect a lot of art out of Star Wars, which by volume of crap produced is mostly interested in marketing toys and unnecessary spinoffs and garish branded junk, and has been for years. Sure I'll defend some aspects of Revenge of the Sith as having artistic merit, but aside from that it's never been like SW is particularly challenging or emotionally complex. Even in the realm of pulp sci-fantasy most SW is kinda like the easy listening cover of the rock original.

And I don't expect a lot of artistic value out of streaming TV. It may happen on occasion, but the number one goal of the modern streaming platform is to keep shoveling out enough product for half asleep people to watch at the end of the day they'll feel the subscription is worth it. This is not a medium where remotely complex or challenging things thrive.

Welcome to the future, where everything will be mulched into #content.

[Keltest]

Lol you didn't even read what I wrote. I said it was a joke. Obviously. Nobody could really think they were supposed to be heroes. It was hyperbole to point out how silly things in these movies really are, if we look too hard.

Not really sure why youre expecting to convince him by repeating the behavior that caused him to ignore your post in the first place.