5/23 Unearthed Arcana: Giant Options

[Psyren]

It appears to have been posted Monday but I only got a notification today:

https://dnd.wizards.com/unearthed-arcana/giant-options

It contains three new subclasses: Path of the Giant Barbarian, Primeval Druid (yay animal companion!!!), and Runecrafter Wizard.

Also new feats (some of which have prerequisites.)

Looks like there's a new devblog about it too - well, about the first subclass anyway:



EDIT: they added the other two subclass vids: Primeval Druid, Runecrafter Wizard
EDIT 2: Feats devblog added

[Amnestic]

Not sure what it says about my attention to detail that I thought Crushing Hurl was already a baseline barbarian 'feature'.

I like Giant Barb a lot.

Primeval druid seems fine, glad we've finally got a 'pet' subclass for druid.

Sigil of Warding looks nuts? Like if I'm reading it right it's a PB/LR "Legendary Resistance" on Str/Dex/Con saves. Yeah, it takes your reaction, but that's still pretty strong.

I do appreciate they're looking at more 'level gated' feats, and think that's probably smart. Rune Carver Apprentice seems very strong, giving you a floating spell known, and its follow up gives up to 6 floating spells known and 6 'free' 1st level spell slots. Is that too much for two feats? Ehhhhh idk. It's certainly interesting.

[Sparky McDibben]

Looks OK. Does this scream Stone Age D&D to anyone? 'Cuz I really feel for the Planegea devs right now.

[Jervis]

No giant sorcerer? PAIN!

[animewatcha]

A lot of these feats can fit thematically with Rune Knight. It has me wondering if they are gonna use feedback from this to change that subclass around beyond just short/long rest. Hopefully, WOTC doesn't screw it up too much.

With these feats being less 'optional' and the increase toward level requirements, it looks more like we should just get a bonus feat at every ASI to include the ASI.

[solidork]

Does Engraved Emnity actually take your concentration?

[animewatcha]

Does Engraved Emnity actually take your concentration?

Yes. First paragraph page 4.

[Psyren]

Not sure what it says about my attention to detail that I thought Crushing Hurl was already a baseline barbarian 'feature'.

I like Giant Barb a lot.

Until now, Rage's damage bonus was melee only. So this is pretty cool and makes a "ranged barbarian" thrower build at least somewhat viable, especially combined with Elemental Cleaver (i.e. every thrown weapon gets elemental damage added and returns to your hand.) Not only that, but we finally have a way to get Huge as a barbarian without Rune Knight. And they lose none of their melee ability either.

Mighty Impel is also quite good as you can throw enemies into the air (targeting a Strength save) and also throw allies laterally so they get to avoid the falling damage.

Primeval druid seems fine, glad we've finally got a 'pet' subclass for druid.

My one hesitation here is that the pet doesn't seem to get magical attacks on its own, and since Druids appear to have lost Magic Fang in this edition that will eventually hurt the pet's ability to deal competitive damage. Unless I'm missing a druid buff that might help?

Sigil of Warding looks nuts? Like if I'm reading it right it's a PB/LR "Legendary Resistance" on Str/Dex/Con saves. Yeah, it takes your reaction, but that's still pretty strong.

It draws from the same pool as Runic Empowerment though so I think it's fine. Like early on you could blow both of these on a single fight and be subclassless for the rest of the day.

[Amnestic]

It draws from the same pool as Runic Empowerment though so I think it's fine.

That's partly my concern I suppose? Str/Dex/Con saves are generally "damage" more than "disable", granted, but it feels like Sigil of Empowerment is so tempting you'd stop wanting to use your runic empowerment uses to keep it in reserve to protect your Concentration.

I do like that Engraved Enmity doesn't take up its "use" until it actually works on a creature, though I will say that the Woeful Curse seems kind of...incredibly weak for that level at only 1d8 force damage for occupying your concentration (and potentially a 3rd level spell slot). There's doubtless some nasty combos with Runecraft's Bane (hello, disadvantage on Feeblemind save!) so I expect that's where it'd go 90% of the time, Unveiled Enemy 9% of the time, and Woeful Curse 1% of the time.

[x3n0n]

I do like that Engraved Enmity doesn't take up its "use" until it actually works on a creature, though I will say that the Woeful Curse seems kind of...incredibly weak for that level at only 1d8 force damage for occupying your concentration (and potentially a 3rd level spell slot). There's doubtless some nasty combos with Runecraft's Bane (hello, disadvantage on Feeblemind save!) so I expect that's where it'd go 90% of the time, Unveiled Enemy 9% of the time, and Woeful Curse 1% of the time.

If I'm reading it correctly, it's subject to all 3 at the same time, until you stop concentrating: disadvantage on saves against your spells, can't be invisible, and (at the cost of your BA, thus limited to once pre turn) takes an additional d8 of force the next time it's hit this turn.

[Psyren]

That's partly my concern I suppose? Str/Dex/Con saves are generally "damage" more than "disable", granted, but it feels like Sigil of Empowerment is so tempting you'd stop wanting to use your runic empowerment uses to keep it in reserve to protect your Concentration.

Would you? No other wizard can do this and I don't think anyone considers them to be weak. This reaction is certainly nice to have if you bomb a save, but I don't think hoarding your SoEs to fuel it is going to feel necessary, nor even be all that common in practice.

[Amnestic]

If I'm reading it correctly, it's subject to all 3 at the same time, until you stop concentrating: disadvantage on saves against your spells, can't be invisible, and (at the cost of your BA, thus limited to once pre turn) takes an additional d8 of force the next time it's hit this turn.

Hmm, admittedly I think it could be written more clearly, I'd read "marked by an enmity rune" as only one of the options but now that you mention it's all 3 I can see that reading too. That does make it markedly better than I thought, since 1d8 force/round at the cost of your BA is a 'fair' cost.

[x3n0n]

Hmm, admittedly I think it could be written more clearly, I'd read "marked by an enmity rune" as only one of the options but now that you mention it's all 3 I can see that reading too. That does make it markedly better than I thought, since 1d8 force/round at the cost of your BA is a 'fair' cost.

"The enmity rune [...] hovers over the marked creature, which suffers the following effects: [all 3]".

Agreed that the wording of the "Woeful Curse" is highly misleading; "the curse ends" when they take the damage...but their being marked does not, which only ends with your concentration.
Not a fan of the wording at all.

[ZRN]

Not sure what it says about my attention to detail that I thought Crushing Hurl was already a baseline barbarian 'feature'.

I like Giant Barb a lot.

Primeval druid seems fine, glad we've finally got a 'pet' subclass for druid.

Sigil of Warding looks nuts? Like if I'm reading it right it's a PB/LR "Legendary Resistance" on Str/Dex/Con saves. Yeah, it takes your reaction, but that's still pretty strong.

I do appreciate they're looking at more 'level gated' feats, and think that's probably smart. Rune Carver Apprentice seems very strong, giving you a floating spell known, and its follow up gives up to 6 floating spells known and 6 'free' 1st level spell slots. Is that too much for two feats? Ehhhhh idk. It's certainly interesting.

I agree on Giant Barb. I found it interesting that the level 3 feature seems a lot worse than the level 6 feature, which is usually the other way around for barb subclasses. I kind of like the grab-bag approach to addressing barbarians' difficulty with range: you get reach AND you can throw your greatsword 60 feet AND you can toss enemies around. Makes an interesting contrast with Rune Knights too. Probably the first barbarian subclass that'd really tempt me to stay barbarian past level 5-6.

I had the opposite reaction to those particular feats, though. The apprentice one seems like it's almost always worse than e.g. Fey-Touched, because you effective get one free first level spell and that's it. (Swapping spells on a long rest doesn't seem likely to add THAT much utility.) The Adept feat makes it better, but man, you're giving up TWO feats for some first-level spells? At what point should you just take a level of wizard or cleric instead?

[Phhase]

Barbarian Subclass looks fun. At-will Comprehend Languages is also interesting. The feats look great too. How good are they, though? One way or another, I see this further inflating the value of Variant Human and Custom Lineage due to the relative drought of opportunities to take feats.

I look forward to seeing what people do with Rune Carver. No-concentration Blur seems...pretty...good...ish? Once per rest as it might be. Outsized Might looks like fun in niche cases, though I'm sad it doesn't give you Expertise if you're already proficient in the chosen skill.

[Psyren]

I agree on Giant Barb. I found it interesting that the level 3 feature seems a lot worse than the level 6 feature, which is usually the other way around for barb subclasses.

The 3 feature makes you Large when you rage, that's a big deal especially at that level. It also lets you add your rage damage to thrown attacks. I wouldn't say its worse than 6 at all.

[Jervis]

"The enmity rune [...] hovers over the marked creature, which suffers the following effects: [all 3]".

Agreed that the wording of the "Woeful Curse" is highly misleading; "the curse ends" when they take the damage...but their being marked does not, which only ends with your concentration.
Not a fan of the wording at all.

Uhhg, why does 5e insist on using “natural” wording for everything instead of actually explaining what the heck something does.

[ZRN]

The 3 feature makes you Large when you rage, that's a big deal especially at that level. It also lets you add your rage damage to thrown attacks. I wouldn't say its worse than 6 at all.

Why is the size a big deal? I guess you can grapple/disarm/shove Huge enemies, but that doesn't seem SUPER important. The reach is nice, but you can get that by just carrying a polearm. Whereas +1d6 damage per attack and greatsword damage from 60 feet away seem like pretty big changes!

[Jervis]

Why is the size a big deal? I guess you can grapple/disarm/shove Huge enemies, but that doesn't seem SUPER important. The reach is nice, but you can get that by just carrying a polearm. Whereas +1d6 damage per attack and greatsword damage from 60 feet away seem like pretty big changes!

Threatened squares and AOEs. Pam + Sentinel is scary on a large creature

[Psyren]

Why is the size a big deal? I guess you can grapple/disarm/shove Huge enemies, but that doesn't seem SUPER important. The reach is nice, but you can get that by just carrying a polearm. Whereas +1d6 damage per attack and greatsword damage from 60 feet away seem like pretty big changes!

As Jervis pointed out, a polearm adds to your reach, so it gets even better in the hands of a large creature by letting you control an even wider radius.

My point is that even if it were worse, which it isn't, "a lot worse" is definitely an overstatement.

[ZRN]

As Jervis pointed out, a polearm adds to your reach, so it gets even better in the hands of a large creature by letting you control an even wider radius.

My point is that even if it were worse, which it isn't, "a lot worse" is definitely an overstatement.

That's fine, I'll cop to overstating the case. My main point is, whereas I would do a three-level dip in Ancestral or Totem barbarian and then jump over to fighter or something, I couldn't see stopping this subclass before at least level 6, and probably level 10.

[solidork]

The Stone Giant feat seems pretty sweet for non-darkvision races that don't have access to Shield.

[BoutsofInsanity]

That Giant Subclass is just absolute peak ideal design.

It's simple, effective, and has choices to make in combat. As far as achieving the feeling of playing a giant hulking magical barbarian character that subclass just NAILS the feeling of it. And it says giant but it might as well say

Dragon, Demon, Elemental etc...

That's just marvelous class design right there. Like holy cow is that good design. It's not the most powerful. But any player who is looking to get that "Fantasy" of playing a big meat stick, is going to FEEL that when playing said subclass.

Just, it might be one of the best designed subclasses in the game from that standpoint. Like just raving about it.

[Psyren]

Hmm, admittedly I think it could be written more clearly, I'd read "marked by an enmity rune" as only one of the options but now that you mention it's all 3 I can see that reading too. That does make it markedly better than I thought, since 1d8 force/round at the cost of your BA is a 'fair' cost.

"The enmity rune [...] hovers over the marked creature, which suffers the following effects: [all 3]".

Agreed that the wording of the "Woeful Curse" is highly misleading; "the curse ends" when they take the damage...but their being marked does not, which only ends with your concentration.
Not a fan of the wording at all.

As written, the rune confers all three effects simultaneously. The Curse (1d8 extra damage) goes away after one hit, but the other two non-curse effects stick around for the full minute as long as you maintain concentration.

[GooeyChewie]

Path of the Giant: It's funny they called it the "Thor" subclass in the video, but other than Elemental Cleaver possibly doing lightening damage and causing your weapon to come back to you, it's more like the Hulk. When you get angry, you get bigger and throw things. I do question making everything you wear grow with you. Normally Large weapons deal double dice damage, and Huge weapons deal triple. If that's the intent, this subclass is very powerful. Overall, I'm glad to see a subclass devoted to thrown weapons (even if it is in the form of granting Thrown to a weapon). I still hold out hope that we'll get a Barbarian subclass devoted to fighting unarmed.

Circle of the Primeval: I like the idea of Druid having a 'pet' subclass. This one reminds me a bit of the 4e Shaman, which is probably the only class I really enjoyed playing in 4e. I also like the idea of playing a fairy and summoning Godzilla, who keeps getting bigger as I hit 10th and 14th level. Looks fun!

Runecrafter: I'm not generally excited about new Wizard subclasses. Runes do seem like a good way to thematically tie in with giants, though, so that's cool.

I'll have to get into the details of the feats later. First glance, I see we are going forward with level-restricted and tiered feats. I'm not a huge fan of those concepts, but they aren't the worst thing ever, either.

[Phhase]

That Giant Subclass is just absolute peak ideal design.

It's simple, effective, and has choices to make in combat. As far as achieving the feeling of playing a giant hulking magical barbarian character that subclass just NAILS the feeling of it. And it says giant but it might as well say

Dragon, Demon, Elemental etc...

That's just marvelous class design right there. Like holy cow is that good design. It's not the most powerful. But any player who is looking to get that "Fantasy" of playing a big meat stick, is going to FEEL that when playing said subclass.

Just, it might be one of the best designed subclasses in the game from that standpoint. Like just raving about it.

Hard agree. The only things that'd make it better for me is to be able to dedicate to one elemental damage type and the grow-large to be optional/tradeoffable. This gets pretty close to my elemental savant itch that's been severely neglected, and I love designs like this that speak to more than one fantasy at once.

[Hael]

Quick hit thoughts, i didnt read this properly.

I was not impressed with the Barb flavor. What part of giants makes you think ‘ranged Barbarian’. Its mechanically okish, but I was more into grappling, hitpoints or strength feats given the flavor. The strength throw is pretty powerful though albeit way too late.

The wizard looked absolutely terrible. Only proficiency amount of runes until lvl 10? The lvl 14 feature is trash.

The druid looked ok, but I mean WOTC should have learned their lesson after the crappy Fizban ranger. No magical attack means the thing is functionally a gigantic meatshield at some point in tier2. Come on!

[Phhase]

Quick hit thoughts, i didnt read this properly.

I was not impressed with the Barb flavor. What part of giants makes you think ‘ranged Barbarian’. Its mechanically okish, but I was more into grappling, hitpoints or strength feats given the flavor. The strength throw is pretty powerful though albeit way too late.

I guess things like throwing boulders and the like norse mjolnir returning elemental weapon trope thing. And being Large does assist grapples.

[solidork]

The Life Rune is a pretty obscene amount of temporary Hit Points for only 2 levels. At level 5 its up to 40 temporary hit points per long rest. That's comparable durability to an Abjurer who only casts Abjuration Spells.

[animewatcha]

If this goes well and they do a paladin oath out of it, might I suggest the Oath of Throw It Back?