What am I missing with Clerics here?

[Psyren]

Why would you need a parasol when they can emanate a sphere of dim light?

[Keravath]

Cleric is one of my favorite classes. There are around a dozen different sub-classes to choose from and many of them play very differently. The way I played my Tempest Cleric was very different from how I played my Twilight Cleric, which was also very different from how I played a Nature Cleric.

I played a Twilight Cleric for over a year in a Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign and they were ridiculously effective both at doing damage and keeping themselves and the party alive. Their typical order of battle went something like this:

Round 1: Action: Twilight Sanctuary. Bonus Action: Flight.

Round 2: Action: Spirit Guardians.

Round 3: Action: Dodge. Bonus Action, Spiritual Weapon.

So now he's flying, dodging, handing out tons of Temp HP and doing damage both with Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon.

For tough fights where the group needs healing more than my extra damage, I'd put up Aura of Vitality instead of Spirit Guardians on Round 2 and cast Sanctuary on myself instead of Spiritual Weapon on Round 3. Now I'm flying, dodging and they need to make a wisdom save to target me.

I don't think my Twilight Cleric wielded a melee weapon once the entire campaign, but he was fun, effective, kept the party alive and could do reasonable damage when needed.

I'm not seeing this as especially powerful .. maybe I am missing something.

1) They don't contribute damage to the fight until the third round except possibly via spirit guardians cast on the second.
2) Spirit guardians is a 15' radius - the higher you go the smaller its footprint on the ground. Go up 15' and you might affect one target depending on where the DM decides the effect originates from.
3) If you fly at 5' or possibly 10' to get more targets into the radius then you might be flying close enough to be attacked by folks standing on the ground so it doesn't gain you that much. A typical 6' tall medium creature reaching a foot above their head, wielding a 3-4' weapon could conceivably hit a creature flying 10' off the ground - though lots of DM calls involved in working out combat and positioning in 3D. Even if you go with 5' cubes - a creature with a reach weapon would be able to hit a creature flying 10' off the ground.

Using the Twilight Sanctuary feature is the main draw for the Twilight cleric since you give your team mates the d6+cleric level temp hit every round. That can make a huge difference unless the opponents are using focused tactics - but other than that (and the flight which has some limitations if used with spirit guardians), there is nothing there that a regular cleric isn't doing one round earlier.

P.S. ... and if the opponents have ranged weapons, the cleric flying just above the melee becomes a prime target ... though dodging does help.

[Snails]

The situation with cleric's is pretty simple: No, they are not great; but they are very good, potentially good at almost everything.

To some people that is insufficiently glamorous to get them excited. Fair enough. And you are right to think that if your party is decently skilled at teamwork you can easily make do without the class. But it is not because anything is wrong with the class, in general. It is not that the cleric needs a boost.

BTW, the cleric workhorses of Bless and Spirit Guardian go from "pretty good" to "great" if you cast before combat, and bend the Action Economy in your favor. That is a matter of whether or not you have a skilled player who can really tune in to how combat usually unfolds with your DM.

I have been playing a cleric recently, and I usually do not bother with Bless unless it is a pre-combat casting. Nor do I even find Spirit Guardians very helpful. My PC is a Tempest cleric, and his workhorse spell is an upcast Destructive Wrath (channel) Shatter, to soften up choices targets so the frontliners can carve right through, and the rest is details. And my PC is a solid frontliner with the highest AC in the part and good HPs. Again, not so good as to be glamorous in the eyes of most players, but effective and robust enough to be a reliable contributor.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm just left wondering why aren't they stronger?

You want them to be more powerful? Stonger? What do you mean by that. Those are kind of vague.

My approach to a cleric is based on a core game assumption: we build a team of PCs who each bring a different set of gifts/skills to the various adventures and challenges we are faced with. Cleric makes his team better in a lot of ways, and can debuff the enemy in a number of ways, and can also deal out some damage. Doesn't need to be the Alpha in any of that. Banishment, as but one example, when it lands is a huge force multiplier for the party. Heroes' Feast is a superb buff. I could go on, but I am not sure what you mean by "powerful" in your assessment.

Up to twelve other creatures can partake of the feast. A creature that partakes of the feast gains several benefits. The creature is cured of all diseases and poison, becomes immune to poison and being frightened, and makes all Wisdom saving throws with advantage. Its hit point maximum also increases by 2d10, and it gains the same number of hit points. These benefits last for 24 hours.

[LIST][*]Elemental / blasty clerics are pretty much gone. Closest we have is Tempest, which I won't even dignify with further conversation.

?? Not seeing what's wrong with Tempest cleric.

War Cleric should be at least as martial as a Swords/Valor Bard or Bladesinger, but they don't even get Extra Attack.

Concur. Extra attack at 6 would not have harmed the game.

[*]Peace Domain makes their party better at fighting. Wait, what?

Every cleric can make the party better.

[*]Summoner clerics are pretty much gone.

Good.

[*]Army of the dead clerics got nerfed.

Good (Won't comment on death domain).

The only aligned cleric we have left is Law/Order. Where's Chaos/Freedom?

Interesting question, and that is probably the next domain that would be useful. But ya know what? I think they were dealing with bloat and I'm glad that they trimmed it.

Light should be the undead destroyer, the kind of cleric that would make you feared somewhere like Barovia or the Underdark.

What would you add to it to make it more of an undead destroyer?

Lets see, for Cleric I've played:{snip}

Arcana, Death, Forge, Life, Light, and Nature to varying levels

As for spells, I have used most of them. To the point where I think it'd be easier to name the spells I haven't tried using as a Cleric.
Honestly, the spells I haven't cast are usually ones with a super specific niche, like Geas, have a really specific benefit, like Dawn being Sunlight, or involve fortifying a base, like Forbiddance. And while having those spells are nice, and I do like them, they're not really things I keep prepared. Like take Dawn, its a pretty nice 5th level spell. But I'm not going to prepare it over Flame Strike, Holy Weapon, or Insect Plague unless I happen to know we'll be fighting something that has some sort of weakness to Sunlight.[/QUOTE] Scouting and recon is a thing, or it used to be a part of the exploration pillar. If you play mostly 'knock the door down' style games little stuff like that can be lost: what spell do I prepare since I know we are seeking/hunting {X}

Would not arcana cleric outshine twilight? Eventually Level 6-9 wizard spells, wizard cantrips and such?

It's a bit of a grind to get there.

[ImproperJustice]

The longer I mull over this post the more I am inclined to just agree to disagree with the OP.

There is a pretty overwhelming response from folks explaining with very good reasons why Clerics are a strong class with durability, damage options, recovery options, utility options, great action economy, great party wide buffs, good RP options and on an on….

Sorry this class doesn’t work for you. I and many others at my tables find them fun and versatile.

If it makes you feel any better, I kind of feel the same way about Bards and everyone else loves them.

The game and hobby are rich with possibilities and some classes just suit some others better.

Funnily enough I am gonna be running a Dwarven Light Cleric in an upcoming one shot next week, where I can play the role of team support, back up tank, and blaster as I see fit.

[stoutstien]

The only complaint I can see merit in is the fact any class that doesn't get additional attacks with attack action are better off with BB/GFB. Clerics as a whole are in that category and half of them get at least 1-2 features that promote swinging pointy sticks at foes. Not necessarily the cleric's chassis at fault but it is kinda lame.

Easy fix to add a cleric weapon cantrips that is just more thematically on point but less potent. Something like a mini radiant/necrotic damage bonus and a chance to disrupt undead.

[Psyren]

We just give War Clerics Extra Attack at our table in place of Divine Strike. We've also toyed with swapping that with War God's Blessing so Extra Attack comes in at 6th and WGB comes in at 8th, but we haven't done that yet.

[LudicSavant]

Here's a thing I posted a while back regarding Death Clerics, comparing how much damage their Channel Divinity resource adds compared Paladin smites (among other things). https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...5&postcount=45

[Snails]

The only complaint I can see merit in is the fact any class that doesn't get additional attacks with attack action are better off with BB/GFB. Clerics as a whole are in that category and half of them get at least 1-2 features that promote swinging pointy sticks at foes. Not necessarily the cleric's chassis at fault but it is kinda lame.

Easy fix to add a cleric weapon cantrips that is just more thematically on point but less potent. Something like a mini radiant/necrotic damage bonus and a chance to disrupt undead.

The War Cleric is a disappointment in my eyes, not that it is terrible, but it does not feel special at its theme. I was weighing whether to try a War Cleric or a Light Cleric, and I went with Tempest. IMO Tempest is a better war cleric than a War Cleric, because a Thunderwave/Shatter more than compensate for a lack of additional attacks, when there are multiple foes.

[stoutstien]

The War Cleric is a disappointment in my eyes, not that it is terrible, but it does not feel special at its theme. I was weighing whether to try a War Cleric or a Light Cleric, and I went with Tempest. IMO Tempest is a better war cleric than a War Cleric, because a Thunderwave/Shatter more than compensate for a lack of additional attacks, when there are multiple foes.

Yea it's a letdown for a theme on a domain. Just about half of them feel more warlike than war.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The longer I mull over this post the more I am inclined to just agree to disagree with the OP.

There is a pretty overwhelming response from folks explaining with very good reasons why Clerics are a strong class with durability, damage options, recovery options, utility options, great action economy, great party wide buffs, good RP options and on an onÂ….

Sorry this class doesnÂ’t work for you. I and many others at my tables find them fun and versatile.

If it makes you feel any better, I kind of feel the same way about Bards and everyone else loves them.

The game and hobby are rich with possibilities and some classes just suit some others better.

Funnily enough I am gonna be running a Dwarven Light Cleric in an upcoming one shot next week, where I can play the role of team support, back up tank, and blaster as I see fit.

My first character was a Dwarven Light Cleric and I loved it. As a starting point he was just really tough in hp, AC, and saves. You're pretty SAD, so you have the option to go into feats fairly early. As you say, there are a number of things it does well, probably not too many that it's the best at, with the exception making a horde of undead just go away. I suppose if you want a class that specializes in something Cleric is probably not the class for you, unless it's an undead heavy campaign.
One spell that I don't think gets enough attention is Divine Word. My Cleric was in Out of the Abyss, so we had a lot of battles at higher levels against lots of Demons and Divine Word was an absolute game changer. I suppose it could be argued that it's a bit niche, but Celestials, Elementals, Fey, and Fiends are pretty common at high level. If you can use this even once per day, you're going to turn a tough encounter into a cake walk.
Most of our group has played a Cleric at one point or another, and I don't think any disliked their experience. Each character/ Subclass had it's own flavor, which I can't say for all the characters we've had from other classes. My main criticism, echoing some others on the thread, would be that resourceless damage is low. This wasn't so much of an issue when I played mine, but has evolved into more of an issue as blade cantrips and newer martial based subclasses have come on line for other classes.

[ImproperJustice]

My first character was a Dwarven Light Cleric and I loved it. As a starting point he was just really tough in hp, AC, and saves. You're pretty SAD, so you have the option to go into feats fairly early. As you say, there are a number of things it does well, probably not too many that it's the best at, with the exception making a horde of undead just go away. I suppose if you want a class that specializes in something Cleric is probably not the class for you, unless it's an undead heavy campaign.
One spell that I don't think gets enough attention is Divine Word. My Cleric was in Out of the Abyss, so we had a lot of battles at higher levels against lots of Demons and Divine Word was an absolute game changer. I suppose it could be argued that it's a bit niche, but Celestials, Elementals, Fey, and Fiends are pretty common at high level. If you can use this even once per day, you're going to turn a tough encounter into a cake walk.
Most of our group has played a Cleric at one point or another, and I don't think any disliked their experience. Each character/ Subclass had it's own flavor, which I can't say for all the characters we've had from other classes. My main criticism, echoing some others on the thread, would be that resourceless damage is low. This wasn't so much of an issue when I played mine, but has evolved into more of an issue as blade cantrips and newer martial based subclasses have come on line for other classes.

Absolutely!!!
My high level Forge Cleric used Divine Word frequently and often to just end an encounter or finish off an encounter with a resounding bang.
Great spell!

[Telwar]

My main complaints with cleric are:
* You get fewer spells added in supplements than the traditionally arcane classes do. This is primarily because cleric and druid know their entire list. It annoys me, but I understand.
* You don't get anything like a scagtrip unless you play arcana. This annoys me far more than the new spells added thing.

Otherwise, they're great. They've been nerfed from 3.5 codzilla, but so has everything else. I loved my Light cleric in what turned out to be a Curse of Strahd game (though it started out as cowboys in Eberron); that channel divinity was a standout AoE.

[sithlordnergal]

You want them to be more powerful? Stonger? What do you mean by that. Those are kind of vague.

I actually went into more detail on some of my gripes with the Cleric spell list right here

Outside of spell lists, a few Subclasses need a small buff. For example, War Cleric should have their limited use Bonus Action Attack, and get Extra Attack. Maybe get Extra Attack instead of Divine Strike. Maybe replace some of their Domain Spells with the Smite Spells to make them more war-like.

Tempest Cleric has a lot of awesome abilities that activate when you deal Lightning and/or Thunder damage. But the only spells they have that deal Lightning or Thunder damage are Thunderwave, Shatter, Call Lightning, Destructive Wave, and Glyph of Warding. Now, I will admit that there aren't a ton of Thunder and Lightning spells in the PHB, but they could replace Call Lightning with Lightningbolt to make it a bit better. You're gonna use Lightningbolt a lot more often than you will Call Lightning due Call Lightning's restrictions on where it can be cast. And since there aren't many spells that deal Thunder/Lightning damage, have Wrath of the Storm scale. Make it deal more damage, maybe from 2d8 to 6d8 over the course of leveling.

Knowledge Clerics: Give them Expertise like a Rogue since they're supposed to be the Cleric Skill Monkey.


But honestly, fixing their spell list would give them the biggest boost. I know we don't want to go back to the days of CoDzilla back in 3.5, but they removed so many spells from the Cleric that were on the 3.5 spell list. Spells that me and my DMs are consistently surprised they lack. Though I outlined that in the post I linked.

Scouting and recon is a thing, or it used to be a part of the exploration pillar. If you play mostly 'knock the door down' style games little stuff like that can be lost: what spell do I prepare since I know we are seeking/hunting {X}

I have been able to do a little bit of scouting and recon with the Divination spells the Cleric has. But I've found Clerics don't really have that many good options to scout or do recon with their main spell list. They do have a loooot of Divination spells that could help...but a lot of them either have weird requirements, like only answering about events that will happen within a few days, or its up the DM to give you special info based on what Deities know. I will say, I made really heavy use of spells like Scry, Legend Lore, Sending, Etherealness, Commune, and Divination to learn all I could about a powerful Dragon we're about to fight. But was unable to get any form of specifics about the Dragon's lair, precise capabilities other than the basics, special weaknesses, ect. Heck, we basically had to go into the Dragon's Lair blind because I was unable to gain any info about the lair's layout via my Divination spells.

And since I can't actually summon anything outside of Planar Ally and Summon Celestial, which I can't cast anyway because the DM made the spell component impossible to buy and has to be requisitioned from my church which I currently can't get to, I don't really have any familiars or summons that I can use to scout.

[solidork]

We had 3 characters who can cast commune in our home game at one point or another and it was very useful. Admittedly, this required the cooperation of our DM. My Warlock could commune with the gods of magic (he served a Couatl created by them) and learned a lot of stuff about enemy spell casters, the capabilities of monsters (I often asked about Blindsight/Truesight to see if it was worth it to cast Shadow of Moil) and on one memorable occasion managed to figure out who was scrying on us with some good guesses.

Giving War Clerics smite spells on thier domain list would be awful - those spells are pretty terrible. The current domain list is a little boring because its mostly cleric spells, but they're spells you're going to want to prepare almost all of the time so you're free to prepare some of your narrower options.

[diplomancer]

There are so many points to argue against in this summary.

Take an extra hour after your long rest cuz it'd be super handy? I'm sorry, I thought your character was a person, with goals and motivations and responsibilities and on and on. I bet an extra hour of sleep would be great for you, too, but I doubt you're ignoring your alarm clock and going to work an hour later than scheduled just because it would be handy!

Have you've had a good night sleep followed by a nice breakfast? Congratulations, you've had a long rest followed by a short rest. Now, maybe you can't do this every single day. But if your life was on the line every day and doing so would greatly increase your chances of survival, I can't really understand what's wrong with it.

[sithlordnergal]

Have you've had a good night sleep followed by a nice breakfast? Congratulations, you've had a long rest followed by a short rest. Now, maybe you can't do this every single day. But if your life was on the line every day and doing so would greatly increase your chances of survival, I can't really understand what's wrong with it.

XD Sorry, but that wouldn't fly with me or any DM I know. Your breakfast is a part of your Long Rest. You can't have a Short Rest immediately after a Long Rest. At my tables at least, attempts to do so will be given a hard "No", and a reminder that the DM informs you when you benefit from a Short Rest, even if you fufil the requirements for one.

Sorry to all you Clerics and Warlocks that wanna use a Short Rest resource without actually spending the resource, but you gotta do some adventuring to get that Short Rest. Probably 2 to 3 encounters worth before you get it.

[Rukelnikov]

Have you've had a good night sleep followed by a nice breakfast? Congratulations, you've had a long rest followed by a short rest. Now, maybe you can't do this every single day. But if your life was on the line every day and doing so would greatly increase your chances of survival, I can't really understand what's wrong with it.

Indeed, I used to do Extended AoA +short rest as the early morning routine of my Sorlock.

XD Sorry, but that wouldn't fly with me or any DM I know. Your breakfast is a part of your Long Rest. You can't have a Short Rest immediately after a Long Rest. At my tables at least, attempts to do so will be given a hard "No", and a reminder that the DM informs you when you benefit from a Short Rest, even if you fufil the requirements for one.

Well, if that's the case just wait until you can short rest, and start travelling afterwards.

Sorry to all you Clerics and Warlocks that wanna use a Short Rest resource without actually spending the resource, but you gotta do some adventuring to get that Short Rest. Probably 2 to 3 encounters worth before you get it.

Just wait, it doesn't take irl time, "we wait until we can short rest"

[sithlordnergal]

Well, if that's the case just wait until you can short rest, and start travelling afterwards.

Just wait, it doesn't take irl time, "we wait until we can short rest"

Yeah, that time won't come until after you've had 2 to 3 encounters. The DMs I know, myself included, don't hand out free rests, be they Long or Short. Heck, I'm a lot meaner than other DMs I know, cause a single round of combat, even if its just a single creature sniping at you from 600ft away with a Longbow via a surprise round and then running off and disappearing into the forest, is enough to end your Long Rest and potentially net you a level of Exhaustion.

You wanna short rest? Go adventure and do something that earns you that rest. You're not gonna get one from hanging around the house and doing shopping all day.

[Rukelnikov]

Yeah, that time won't come until after you've had 2 to 3 encounters. The DMs I know, myself included, don't hand out free rests, be they Long or Short. Heck, I'm a lot meaner than other DMs I know, cause a single round of combat, even if its just a single creature sniping at you from 600ft away with a Longbow via a surprise round and then running off and disappearing into the forest, is enough to end your Long Rest and potentially net you a level of Exhaustion.

That's ok

You wanna short rest? Go adventure and do something that earns you that rest. You're not gonna get one from hanging around the house and doing shopping all day.

Characters could just jog for an hour or so and then cast a spell and rest. You can of course deny this, but you would be at the same time informing everyone this isn't a ttrpg anymore, its a wargame.

[sithlordnergal]

That's ok



Characters could just jog for an hour or so and then cast a spell and rest. You can of course deny this, but you would be at the same time informing everyone this isn't a ttrpg anymore, its a wargame.

Again, a jog is not gonna cut it. I'm perfectly fine with people thinking its a wargame with rpg elements, especially if they wanna try to abuse rest mechanics. And besides, you're free to do as you like in the game, just don't expect it all to go as you planned. You don't have to go adventuring for the day. Heck, I've had entire sessions where the party went to a museum, or hung out in a city, traveled through a forest, or met up with NPC friends and helped out with minor experiments.

But those generally didn't end up taking any resources, and they never got any Short Rests during those times because they weren't needed.

If you play in one of my games, or a game with any DM I know, go in with the realization that Short Rests do not come for free. And trying to get a free short rest just to use an ability that returns on a Short Rest will fail, no matter what.

[diplomancer]

Again, a jog is not gonna cut it. I'm perfectly fine with people thinking its a wargame with rpg elements, especially if they wanna try to abuse rest mechanics. And besides, you're free to do as you like in the game, just don't expect it all to go as you planned. You don't have to go adventuring for the day. Heck, I've had entire sessions where the party went to a museum, or hung out in a city, traveled through a forest, or met up with NPC friends and helped out with minor experiments.

But those generally didn't end up taking any resources, and they never got any Short Rests during those times because they weren't needed.

If you play in one of my games, or a game with any DM I know, go in with the realization that Short Rests do not come for free. And trying to get a free short rest just to use an ability that returns on a Short Rest will fail, no matter what.

Which is exactly why it looks like WotC is going to get rid of short rests altogether. DMs seem to be, for some weird reason, prejudiced against them... and then I usually see these same DMs being totally fine with the party long resting once the Wizard's spent all his spell slots in two or three fights...

Looks like Short Rests were a mistake.

Edit: also, it's good to remind what the rules say about Short Rests:

A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.

So, if a DM wants PCs NOT to Short Rest after a Long Rest, he has to make sure this doesn't happen. Every single day. He has full control of the world, so it's definitely doable. But it will start to seem awfully artificial.

Truly, if you don't like that sort of thing, just go for Gritty Realism; it's a lot harder to justify adding 8 more hours of resting to your day than one.

[strangebloke]

Which is exactly why it looks like WotC is going to get rid of short rests altogether. DMs seem to be, for some weird reason, prejudiced against them... and then I usually see these same DMs being totally fine with the party long resting once the Wizard's spent all his spell slots in two or three fights...

Looks like Short Rests were a mistake.

Eh, I don't know. As implemented, the system contains mistakes, but DMs failing to apply changes to fix those mistakes doesn't mean the system as a whole is broken.

[Rukelnikov]

Eh, I don't know. As implemented, the system contains mistakes, but DMs failing to apply changes to fix those mistakes doesn't mean the system as a whole is broken.

This is pretty close to Oberoni fallacy, its not broken because it can be fixed? It's clearly not unplayable or anything like that, but if a system need fixing to work, then its broken.

[Psyren]

Oberoni is a crock. Ask three people what's broken and you'll get 5 different answers, and if you're playing any system that doesnt need DM intervention to work, you're playing a board game.

[sithlordnergal]

Which is exactly why it looks like WotC is going to get rid of short rests altogether. DMs seem to be, for some weird reason, prejudiced against them... and then I usually see these same DMs being totally fine with the party long resting once the Wizard's spent all his spell slots in two or three fights...

Looks like Short Rests were a mistake.

I wouldn't say Short Rests are a mistake, nor would I say DMs are prejudiced against Short Rests, not even myself, and if a party has managed to go through enough encounters and resources that they actually do need a Short Rest I'll let them have one. But DMs are prejudiced against such blatant rule abuse. Technically, you could try to take a short rest right after waking up, allowing the Twilight Cleric to use their Channel Divinity and the Warlock to have Hex at the start of the day. Technically, you can also attempt to Long Rest after every single encounter. Its on the DM to make sure to reign such things in, otherwise the balance of the entire game breaks. We know how 5-minute adventuring days ruin the game balance, but allowing Short Rests whenever does the same thing.

I wouldn't let a party benefit from a Long Rest if they've only completed 1 or 2 encounters, just like I wouldn't let a party benefit from a Short Rest if they only use a single, Short Rest recharging ability.

So, if a DM wants PCs NOT to Short Rest after a Long Rest, he has to make sure this doesn't happen. Every single day. He has full control of the world, so it's definitely doable. But it will start to seem awfully artificial.

Truly, if you don't like that sort of thing, just go for Gritty Realism; it's a lot harder to justify adding 8 more hours of resting to your day than one.

No need for Gritty Realism. Just inform the players that, because they're still well rested they simply can't benefit from a Short Rest. As the DM its on you to keep these things balanced. If a party is starting to take a Short or Long Rest after every single encounter, just stop giving them the benefits of those rests.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have been able to do a little bit of scouting and recon with the Divination spells the Cleric has. But I've found Clerics don't really have that many good options to scout or do recon with their main spell list.

Scouting and recon is a PARTY function. I am not asking you to make a cleric a scout. My point is that if your party does exploration and recon/intel gathering first, rather than just 'kick in the door' then what you prepare can be tailored to the threat.

Yeah, I think that way, sue me. Career military, and Combat as War is my approach.

[diplomancer]

I wouldn't say Short Rests are a mistake, nor would I say DMs are prejudiced against Short Rests, not even myself, and if a party has managed to go through enough encounters and resources that they actually do need a Short Rest I'll let them have one. But DMs are prejudiced against such blatant rule abuse. Technically, you could try to take a short rest right after waking up, allowing the Twilight Cleric to use their Channel Divinity and the Warlock to have Hex at the start of the day. Technically, you can also attempt to Long Rest after every single encounter. Its on the DM to make sure to reign such things in, otherwise the balance of the entire game breaks. We know how 5-minute adventuring days ruin the game balance, but allowing Short Rests whenever does the same thing.

I wouldn't let a party benefit from a Long Rest if they've only completed 1 or 2 encounters, just like I wouldn't let a party benefit from a Short Rest if they only use a single, Short Rest recharging ability.

As I've said, my experience is quite different. With one notable exception, DMs who say "no you don't get a short rest" even though there's plenty of time, and literally zero time pressure after a Long Rest*, but then are quite alright with players getting a LR after a few fights (usually, because those few fights took two or more sessions, and so they don't have any idea anymore of how long it's been since the last long rest).

*really, this is like waking up, going to the gym, and then getting breakfast before going to work. It shouldn't break the game, and, in fact, it doesn't. That's certainly not the reason why Twilight Cleric is busted, but it does explain why so many players think Warlocks and Monks suck.

No need for Gritty Realism. Just inform the players that, because they're still well rested they simply can't benefit from a Short Rest. As the DM its on you to keep these things balanced. If a party is starting to take a Short or Long Rest after every single encounter, just stop giving them the benefits of those rests.

Yeah; "not being well-rested" is not a requirement for a Short Rest anywhere in the rules (check the requirements, I posted it right above). So saying "you're too well rested to get a Short Rest" is strictly a houserule. And if my DM insisted on it, I'd be tempted to say something like "ok, I'm sprinting in my Plate Armor for 30 seconds, am I still well-rested?" And if the DM said "Yes", I'd suggest that he sprint for 30 seconds (no Plate Armor required) and then check if he can benefit from a rest...

[sithlordnergal]

Scouting and recon is a PARTY function. I am not asking you to make a cleric a scout. My point is that if your party does exploration and recon/intel gathering first, rather than just 'kick in the door' then what you prepare can be tailored to the threat.

Yeah, I think that way, sue me. Career military, and Combat as War is my approach.

I do agree that scouting is a party function, but what I'm saying that the Cleric doesn't actually add very much to that scouting/recon bit. Not compared to a Wizard or Druid. Clerics do get some nice spells for scouting via their Divination spells...but then again, Wizards and Druids get most of those Divination spells, on top of things that make it easier for your other party members to scout.

The only spell Clerics have that's similar to Invisibility is Etherealness, which is a 7th level spell and you have to cast it at 8th level to cast it on other party members. They don't have anything similar to Pass Without Trace, no Familiars or Beasts they can bond with to send out either on their own or to assist, nothing to speak with the animals nearby, to communicate at long distances outside of Sending, no actual summons to aid in it, no Charms or Illusions to slip past the guards. No spells to grant special movement options outside of Water Walk, not even a spell to help open locked doors or make an entrance of your own.

[tKUUNK]

Just throwing this out there....but maybe what you actually crave is clerics being epic healers again? Especially if comparing with clerics of 3.5e.

For one thing, magical healing used to matter way more. Sure, yo-yo healing still matters in 5e...there's that. :/ Clerics in 3.5e had that solid "combat healer" role in the party, PLUS they could handle non-healing roles on top of it. And in 3.5e, I remember heals being more powerful and combat-altering. Magical healing just doesn't seem to have that same oomph anymore. It's become more reactive than pro-active....and very often there are more important things to do mid-fight than toss cures.

In 5e, they- arguably anyway- have a more "generalist" feel with no strong identity....funny enough, this is similar to the complaint many have had about the ranger...why is it a class?