When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?

[Kish]

I'm not going to argue here, don't have the energy. I thought he changed, for the worse.

On the one hand, it is hard to imagine anyone who ever qualified as Lawful Good arguing that the world should be allowed to end for his convenience.

On the other hand, Roy's reaction to Eugene making that argument is resigned annoyance and snark about "your charming pro-omnicide hot take," not, "holy asterisks, what happened to you since you died? You were always a pompous jerk but you used to be a pompous jerk who sacrificed for others, not tried to sacrifice others for himself."

[Peelee]

Oh, really, where...

...oh wait, I think I phrased that completely wrong. My bad. I meant to say that characters can still change as people (for better or worse) after death.

No, they can't.

Except, of course, that you will never improve at any skill you know, never have a say in what happens in the world, never have children if you haven't already, never talk to anyone with a different point of view, never experience any real risk, never visit anywhere else, and never see any friends or family members who did not share the exact same shade of alignment as you. Oh, and you can still be destroyed by evil adventurers, but you never get any better at defending yourself.

And that's the Lawful Good afterlife. Roy is talking about the entire world here, many of whom might be headed for less cushy situations.

Growth is an aspect of life. No more life, no more growth.

You're right that the metaphysical alignment can't shift - despite everything, Roy's dad would still get into the Lawful Good afterlife when and if the Blood Oath is fulfilled.

I doubt that he would, actually. Just because he claimed to be Lawful Good does not make him Lawful Good. He abandoned his oath against Xykon to take care of his family, and then he abandoned his family to study magic. That really strikes me more as True Neutral.

I'm not going to argue here, don't have the energy. I thought he changed, for the worse.

That's what I'm trying to get at. I don't think he's changed. I just think you're seeing more of who he truly was when he was alive then we saw when he was actually alive (and even then, they seem to match up fairly well).

[brian 333]

...That really strikes me more as True Neutral...

I agree with everything I edited, but have a quibble here.

Assume a 99 point alignment grid.

Chaos to Law is 1 to 99, so above 66 is Lawful.
Evil to Good is 1 to 99, so above 66 is Good.

Presume Eugene is 67 Law, 67 Good. If he was 65 Law, 65 Good he would be TN. The two positions are not very far apart, and Eugene is in danger of being tossed into the True Neutral bin, but he is very marginally LG.

While it may take a long time for Eugene to climb the mountain, he at least qualifies for entry. Minimally. Barely.

Okay, he's a jerk, but he gamed the system and squeeked across the finish line.

[hamishspence]

Growth is an aspect of life. No more life, no more growth.

Undead are capable of growing in power, at least (Xykon points out that he's gained XP from adventuring in Serini's dungeon). So what The Giant says doesn't apply to the Not Alive, but specifically to people in one of the 17 Afterlifes - not to those who have "no more life" for other reasons than being in one of those afterlives.

Since Eugene is "on the cloud outside the afterlives" a case could be made that there's room for some degree of change - perhaps he's gotten more bitter, more ruthless.

[Ruck]

Since I only just decided to open the thread, I'll go back to the broader question rather than some of the details being discussed.

In discussions of Serini's alignment people were pointing to her taking steps to save the world (arguably at her own risk) as significantly boosting her up the good/evil spectrum. I don't know if that's how it works, or how much motivation etc plays into. But if it is a factor, then Belkar has done a lot toward saving the word at considerable risk to himself - more than Serini I would say. That could possibly be seen as a pretty significant entry on the positive side of the ledger - especially if it is boosted further by some heroic sacrifice at the end.

Yeah, I kinda see it working like this.

I don't know the answer to where he'll end up, but I expect Belkar to die in some kind of redemptive moment, some kind of sacrifice to save someone else (probably Hinjo). That-- I suppose in conjunction with whatever he's done better in the last week or two-- could be enough to push him out of CE (if that death doesn't get him unmade by the Snarl). And Rich could have some fun with it, like this:

Maybe the demons will be so disgusted of his commitment to some goody-two-shoes losers that they'll refuse to let him in, at which point he'll throw a tantrum and attack them, prompting the fiends to go all "Seriously? What are you, a <fornicatin'> paladin?" and slam the door in his face. Pandemonium sounds more likely, though.

Or in my case, I just imagined whoever judges the CE afterlife saying something like "Wait a minute... you died in an act of self-sacrifice? For the greater good? Get the Nine Hells out of here!"

Part of me wants to see him get to CG so he can hang out with Shojo again, but it would take some kind of tremendous acts in the remainder of the story to push him that far, I'd think.

He seems exactly like how he was in life.

Which, for the record, still baffles me as to how we're supposed to reconcile that with "Lawful Good." I think some twist is coming there.

I doubt that he would, actually. Just because he claimed to be Lawful Good does not make him Lawful Good. He abandoned his oath against Xykon to take care of his family, and then he abandoned his family to study magic. That really strikes me more as True Neutral.

Yeah, I agree. Everything about Eugene's behavior and priorities screams "True Neutral" to me. (As does the Greenhilt child most like him, from all evidence, canonically being True Neutral.)

[dancrilis]

Which, for the record, still baffles me as to how we're supposed to reconcile that with "Lawful Good."

Spoiler: SOD

Show

In fairness as far as I remember he is the only non-goblin character to actual treat a goblin as a normal person (and actually did put himself at some risk by doing so), leading directly to a functioning goblin settlement who were able to attend events with humans without fear of attack.

Eugene may have done more to help actual goblins then Redcloak has - pity Redcloak ruined it by showing up.

Might be worth some marks on the good column of the alignment scale.

[Peelee]

I agree with everything I edited, but have a quibble here.

Assume a 99 point alignment grid.

Chaos to Law is 1 to 99, so above 66 is Lawful.
Evil to Good is 1 to 99, so above 66 is Good.

Presume Eugene is 67 Law, 67 Good. If he was 65 Law, 65 Good he would be TN. The two positions are not very far apart, and Eugene is in danger of being tossed into the True Neutral bin, but he is very marginally LG.

While it may take a long time for Eugene to climb the mountain, he at least qualifies for entry. Minimally. Barely.

Okay, he's a jerk, but he gamed the system and squeeked across the finish line.

Now assume that, instead of a 99 point system, there is an angel who reviews your life and makes determinations as to whether you get in or not. She may not be pleased that you were trying to game the system (which stands out as rather non-Good, I have to say).

She almost booted Roy out. He probably would have landed somewhere better than the Outlands, but he squeaked by into Celestia. Eugene? Even by your case, I see no reason why he did be 67.

Notwithstanding that even at 67 in your LG scale, there are 17 afterlives for 9 alignments, so that will prickly wouldn't get him into Celestia.

[Charity322]

When Roy died he told the deva assigned to his case not to bother because he was another oathspirit. That turned out not to be a problem for him, but obviously was for his father. So it's possible that they never actually got round to judging Eugene and there was no way he was going to qualify for lawful good anyway. But until he gets the blood oath wrapped up it doesn't matter where he might end up.

[Ruck]

Spoiler: SOD

Show

In fairness as far as I remember he is the only non-goblin character to actual treat a goblin as a normal person (and actually did put himself at some risk by doing so), leading directly to a functioning goblin settlement who were able to attend events with humans without fear of attack.

Eugene may have done more to help actual goblins then Redcloak has - pity Redcloak ruined it by showing up.

Might be worth some marks on the good column of the alignment scale.

I think that might be overstating his behavior mildly-- and I certainly think the "leading directly to" is giving him far more credit than he deserves. Also worth noting that Eugene is, in that same scene, in the midst of disregarding his own advice.

But even whatever credit I'd give that is just a blip compared to the overall pattern of his life, since we see him behave pretty consistently throughout. In fact, I find that one scene telling for other reasons: Many of the behaviors he habitually engages in can be seen there.

Lawful? He didn't keep his Blood Oath; he used his family as an excuse not to, but he consistently fails to meet his obligations with them as well. He is not someone for whom the idea of Responsibility is central. He takes on responsibilities and then abandons them when he gets bored with them. That's not very Lawful.

Good? We never really see him do anything altruistic. He treats his own son with disdain. Even in his adventuring and wizardry, his primary interest seems to be recognition and praise for how great he is at it-- ego gratification-- rather than to defeat Evil or to do Good deeds.

That one scene contains examples of all of those, but looking throughout his behavior, I find everything he does in that scene consistent with the rest of it. He strikes me as someone whose primary interest is himself, who only has any concern for others so long as they hold his interest or they have something he wants, and who primarily wants to be known for his own personal greatness than for any deeds he's done. (You hear a lot about his wizard awards, but not nearly as much about his heroic quests, aye?) He strikes me as incredibly self-absorbed and unconcerned with doing Good. After his death, these qualities seem to have have only been magnified while he waits around, or perhaps the desperation of his situation has led him to drop the pretense he was ever anything else.

When Roy died he told the deva assigned to his case not to bother because he was another oathspirit. That turned out not to be a problem for him, but obviously was for his father. So it's possible that they never actually got round to judging Eugene and there was no way he was going to qualify for lawful good anyway. But until he gets the blood oath wrapped up it doesn't matter where he might end up.

The final scene of Start of Darkness does muddy the issue a bit:

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

The review stops when the Deva gets to the Blood Oath, although she doesn't seem to have found any problems with Eugene before then. Some people interpret that to mean he would have gotten into the Lawful Good afterlife if not for the Blood Oath. I tend to think the Oath just stopped the evaluation altogether. While the Deva says he doesn't see anything too serious, we don't know how far he's gotten in the evaluation. And even that part of the evaluation doesn't surprise me; I don't think Eugene would have anything really Evil on his record, but I don't think he has much going for him in the way of upholding Law and Good, either.

[Fyraltari]

When Roy died he told the deva assigned to his case not to bother because he was another oathspirit. That turned out not to be a problem for him, but obviously was for his father. So it's possible that they never actually got round to judging Eugene and there was no way he was going to qualify for lawful good anyway. But until he gets the blood oath wrapped up it doesn't matter where he might end up.

We do see Eugene being reviewed actually. The Deva gets to the moment he swore the Blood Oath, sees that it's not fullfilled, asks him what is up with that and kicks hip out when he can't give a good answer.

The Blood Oath was not an issue for Roy because he died trying to fullfill it. Eugene just got bored and decided went to get married instead.

[WanderingMist]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but there's technically no guarantee Belkar actually will die. The prophecy only says "Belkar will draw his last breath, ever, before the end of the year" and that he "should savor his next birthday cake". Could this not technically mean he becomes a being which neither needs to breathe nor to eat?

[Peelee]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but there's technically no guarantee Belkar actually will die. The prophecy only says "Belkar will draw his last breath, ever, before the end of the year" and that he "should savor his next birthday cake". Could this not technically mean he becomes a being which neither needs to breathe nor to eat?

And that he shouldn't bother funding his IRA, and that he's not long for this world.

Many theories have been presented to resolve all of these without having him die. None, IMO, have been particularly convincing.

[Ruck]

Yes, the logic that "the Oracle was technically hinting at a bunch of other conditions that could be fulfilled without Belkar dying" vs. "the Oracle is openly taunting Belkar about his impending death" doesn't hold much water.

[Kish]

And that he shouldn't bother funding his IRA, and that he's not long for this world.

Also that the last of those is "the same thing I said last time, only you forgot."

So it's not enough to find a bunch of loopholes, one for each way he phrased "this is a soon-to-be ex-halfling." You need to find one loophole that fits all of them. Because saying "Belkar Bitterleaf will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year" is explicitly the same concept as "the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA," "he's not long for the world," and "he should savor his next birthday cake."

[Charity322]

Also that the last of those is "the same thing I said last time, only you forgot."

So it's not enough to find a bunch of loopholes, one for each way he phrased "this is a soon-to-be ex-halfling." You need to find one loophole that fits all of them. Because saying "Belkar Bitterleaf will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year" is explicitly the same concept as "the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA," "he's not long for the world," and "he should savor his next birthday cake."

I suspect that just enough ambiguity was left so that it could spawn discussions like this lol.

[Dame_Mechanus]

I suspect that just enough ambiguity was left so that it could spawn discussions like this lol.

I remember when people were still speculating that maybe Belkar isn't actually evil despite it being made painfully clear pretty early on. For better or worse, some people will read any poetic turn of phrase as ambiguous until "the ship was a brilliant emerald" is argued because there are red emeralds so couldn't it maybe be red?

[Charity322]

I remember when people were still speculating that maybe Belkar isn't actually evil despite it being made painfully clear pretty early on. For better or worse, some people will read any poetic turn of phrase as ambiguous until "the ship was a brilliant emerald" is argued because there are red emeralds so couldn't it maybe be red?

We need a like button, so I can like this post. XD *goes off to look up red emeralds*

[hungrycrow]

I suspect that just enough ambiguity was left so that it could spawn discussions like this lol.

I do think the Giant arranged the plot to have Belkar almost get killed by Malack to mess with everyone looking for the unnecessary prophecy twist.

[Precure]

"Oracle! You promised us a dead Belkar! Explain yourself!"

"Oh, did I?" (no icon for the Oracle)

"Yup, you did. You said he'll draw his last breath ever!"

"Well, he's a changed man now, not the same Belkar Bitterleaf we all know and love. He's reborn as a different person, hence the last breath."

"You said that he should savor his next birthday cake!"

"Yes, savor it so he can share it with all of his new friends including me, Minrah and that gnome chick."

"You said that he shouldn't bother to fund his IRA!"

"Oh, I was talking about the organization he founded back home. He shouldn't bother funding it since they decided to stop their operations, but that's a discussion we shouldn't speak on this forum."

"For crying out loud, you said he's not long for this world!"

"He's a halfling."

"What about the same thing I said last time line? It has to mean same thing, not four different prophecies."

"Well...worth a shot..." (Kills Belkar)

"Damn it...I was only 10 XP away...from being Chaotic Neutral with Evil tendencies..."

[JonahFalcon]

When Belkar dies, he will be judged, just as Roy was. The Chaotic Evil rep will note all the Lawful and Good acts Belkar has done, and question him on them. Something tells me that his file will be chucked to a different Astral Plane rep, just as the deva threatened to chuck Roy's folder into the True Neutral bin for abandoning Elan.

It's all about TRYING. What is Belkar TRYING to do now?

[Peelee]

When Belkar dies, he will be judged, just as Roy was. The Chaotic Evil rep will note all the Lawful and Good acts Belkar has done, and question him on them. Something tells me that his file will be chucked to a different Astral Plane rep, just as the deva threatened to chuck Roy's folder into the True Neutral bin for abandoning Elan.

It's all about TRYING. What is Belkar TRYING to do now?

Celestia is all about trying. Who the hell knows with the Abyss, or Carceri, or Pandemonium? But dollars to doughnuts they ain't gonna sit anyone down at a desk and grab their file.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Celestia is all about trying. Who the hell knows with the Abyss, or Carceri, or Pandemonium? But dollars to doughnuts they ain't gonna sit anyone down at a desk and grab their file.

"Well, let's take a look at your file, Mr. Bitterleaf."

"Sweet! Does it have anything about that time I killed that gnome for basically no reason?"

"Let's see... oh, it totally does! Ha! That's classic."

"So... about my recent behavior, you have to understand -"

"It's no problem, really. Don't reflect on what we're going to do."

"Wait, seriously? All of those quasi-Good things I did are all right?"

"You're Chaotic Evil and you're in the Chaotic Evil afterlife."

"So I get rewarded?!"

"No, you get tortured forever until it starts being boring to us. We're Chaotic Evil, what, did you think this would be fair or something?"

[JonahFalcon]

Celestia is all about trying. Who the hell knows with the Abyss, or Carceri, or Pandemonium? But dollars to doughnuts they ain't gonna sit anyone down at a desk and grab their file.

Remember when Belkar was talking about thinking about Longterm Evil in lieu of Shortterm Evil?

And you're confusing the Astral Planes {scrubbed}.

Evil souls are the gasoline that makes Avernus run, baby.

[Ruck]

It's all about TRYING. What is Belkar TRYING to do now?

Celestia is all about trying. Who the hell knows with the Abyss, or Carceri, or Pandemonium? But dollars to doughnuts they ain't gonna sit anyone down at a desk and grab their file.

It's also not all about trying. Roy made it into Celestia because his actions may have been borderline Lawful Good / Neutral Good, but he kept trying his best to stick to LG alignment and to do better. But he was close just based on his actions, and it was his continued effort that pushed him over. I don't think that compares to "thoroughly Chaotic Evil until a couple weeks ago; behavior since then less Evil but still not entirely determined if it's even Good."

[LadyEowyn]

Yeah, I just don’t see “lifetime of unrepentant evil followed by a couple weeks of trying to be kinda decent” could work out to "not Chaotic Evil” afterlife-wise.

[Ruck]

Yeah, I just don’t see “lifetime of unrepentant evil followed by a couple weeks of trying to be kinda decent” could work out to "not Chaotic Evil” afterlife-wise.

Yeah. As I said earlier, I think there is a chance Belkar could move out of CE as part of a redemption arc, but it will require his death to be some kind of heroic self-sacrifice, at least. Just the last couple of weeks alone of being a better teammate and starting to develop empathy aren't gonna be enough to do it.

[brian 333]

All of the above is why I'm of the opinion he will be unmade by The Snarl. The ambiguity is only apparent if you supply it, and if you find The Oracle's actual prophecy to be in any way ambiguous, no logic can make you reassess that perception of ambiguity.

Being devoured by The Snarl allows those who want to believe in his redemption to believe, while those who do not don't have to. Everyone gets the ending they want.

Except those who want Belkar to not be gone. But he's really not gone, he's merged with The Snarl like Decker and V'ger. Wait wrong forum. Like Obi Wan and Anakin.

[Ruck]

All of the above is why I'm of the opinion he will be unmade by The Snarl. The ambiguity is only apparent if you supply it, and if you find The Oracle's actual prophecy to be in any way ambiguous, no logic can make you reassess that perception of ambiguity.

Being devoured by The Snarl allows those who want to believe in his redemption to believe, while those who do not don't have to. Everyone gets the ending they want.

Except those who want Belkar to not be gone. But he's really not gone, he's merged with The Snarl like Decker and V'ger. Wait wrong forum. Like Obi Wan and Anakin.

I can buy it, for sure. I'd like to think Rich would give us a scene of Belkar in the afterlife, and I'd hate to think of him being unmade by the Snarl, but it would leave the interpretation of his sacrifice more open for the reader and would make a nice parallel to Kraagor.

That said, a little part of me suspects we'll get the ambiguous redemption with Vaarsuvius, who (if they don't die) will probably undertake some kind of lifelong quest of atonement and trying to make right whatever they can, but which we won't get to see because it'll be after the story ends. So I think we might get a more concrete answer with Belkar because I suspect we're not going to get a concrete answer with V.

[Charity322]

I can buy it, for sure. I'd like to think Rich would give us a scene of Belkar in the afterlife, and I'd hate to think of him being unmade by the Snarl, but it would leave the interpretation of his sacrifice more open for the reader and would make a nice parallel to Kraagor.

But then that ruins my theory that the Snarl doesn't unmake people. It just puts them on the planet in the rift instead. XD Hmm, maybe they don't need to breathe there ... that's pushing it.

Has Belkar had a birthday since the Oracle's prophecy? I don't remember any cake.

[Ruck]

But then that ruins my theory that the Snarl doesn't unmake people. It just puts them on the planet in the rift instead. XD Hmm, maybe they don't need to breathe there ... that's pushing it.

I really don't know what the idea of the planet inside the Snarl is or what that answer will ultimately be, so your theory could be possible. I think Belkar is dead either way.

Has Belkar had a birthday since the Oracle's prophecy? I don't remember any cake.

Almost certainly. While we may not have an exact time frame, we know a few things:

• The Azure City new year was shortly before the Order visited the Oracle,
• Roy was dead for at least three and a half months, plus however long the rest of book 4 from #498 took to resolve,
• The Oracle told him while he was dead that "Belkar will draw his last breath-- ever-- before the end of the year,"
• As of the end of Book 4, Roy implies that there are seven weeks until the end of the year,
• Certainly the events of Books 5 and 6 together took at least a few weeks, putting us fairly close to the end of the year.

Unless Belkar's birthday is very late in the year, he almost certainly has had that birthday since then.