When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?

[Fyraltari]

Does Loki live in Valhalla?

In the cool lounge upstairs it sounds like.

[ORione]

Not, "What must I do to have my banishment revoked?"
"Get turned into a vampire, turn your friends at the Temple of Thor into vampires, sacrifice yourself by guilt-tripping the vampire spirit imprisoning you, then get raised by a dwarf with whom you had a one night stand about a year ago."

Most of that wasn't done by Durkon, and none of it revoked his banishment. The answer to that question would be "Write a letter to the High Priest of Thor."

[brian 333]

Most of that wasn't done by Durkon, and none of it revoked his banishment. The answer to that question would be "Write a letter to the High Priest of Thor."

You are correct. Perhaps my question was too vague. That appears to be an issue when dealing with the oracle.

[Ruck]

You are correct. Perhaps my question was too vague. That appears to be an issue when dealing with the oracle.

Like I said, Haley was the only person who asked the Oracle a "What can I do?" question, and despite the answer being metaphorical, it was an answer that actually guided her and worked.

"How will this happen?" is a question that can be answered many different ways, depending on how deeply or not your local prophet wants to go into cause-and-effect relationships, and how helpful or unhelpful your local prophet wants to be.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Like I said, Haley was the only person who asked the Oracle a "What can I do?" question, and despite the answer being metaphorical, it was an answer that actually guided her and worked.

Indeed, it seems to me that everyone actually derived something useful from the answers they got from the Oracle.

Haley was able to restore her speech because she listened to what the Oracle told her.

Vaarsuvius realized that they had gotten ultimate arcane power just as they were told... and realized that far from being exactly what they wanted, they lost far more than they gained. They changed their priorities as a result.

Belkar... got an excuse to do what he wanted to do anyway.

Durkon was more willing to sacrifice himself because he genuinely believed that dying meant he would get to go home once again. (The fact that death might not be the end was apparently something that didn't occur to him, judging by his expression.)

Elan was able to move on from the illusion in the desert by acknowledging that there were a lot of possible happy endings, even if he didn't get that one - and in the process, he kept the group going instead of falling into despair.

And Roy's prophecy didn't really work like he intended... but it did mean that he didn't have to guess where Team Evil was headed after he got resurrected.

Far more likely than there being some loophole to the prophecy about Belkar is the fact that Roy, as we saw, didn't pass through the memory charm and remembered everything about the encounter with the Oracle. That hasn't come up again subsequently, frankly. (And it may not in general; it's not like he got a whole lot of information he otherwise would have use for, outside of how Belkar triggered the Mark of Justice, and that wasn't relevant.)

[SputzieAccipitr]

I kinda feel like Belkar is ripe for conversion by Minra. She only knows him as the person he is now. And she’s totally in favor of accepting when someone turns over a new leaf (or “Bitterleaf”?)
Valhalla seems like it would appeal to Belkar and would be a pretty good recruiting point for Thor, especially given Belkar‘s current after-life trajectory.
And Thor is pretty chill; I bet he’d be willing to give Belker a shot if Minra is vouching for him. (He has been known to argue that a dwarf died in honorable combat because of infection from a sliver after “batteling” a tree.) Heck, maybe Minra could even convince Durkin to vouch for him, too, depending on Belkar’s upcoming actions and/or philosophical conversations. Durkin doesn’t know that Belkar is about to die, right? Maybe he would accept Belkar as a convert with the idea that it would encourage Belker down the “slippery slope” towards good.
How do conversions work anyway? Would Belkar’s alignment only matter from the point of conversion onward? (Keeping in mind, of course, that the Good after-lifes seem to give credit for trying.)
And it seems like it’s possible for a non-dwarf to convert to become a worshiper of Thor, given Durkin’s reaction when Haley pretended to convert. (Although I suppose if it *wasn’t* a possibility, he might not have mentioned that in front of Mallik, since the party was being all sneaky at the time….)
And I could see the Giant building in some unexpected downside to Valhalla for Belkar. Like, maybe he just Can’t Stand the dwarven bar food and has to suffer through it or else not eat for all eternity.

[brian 333]

Not like dwarven bar food? Are ye daft? Dwarves got all the best bar food!

Salted potato chips/crisps/whatever they call them where you live, salted peanuts, salted hard pretzels.

At the upstairs lounge with bottle service they even have chilli cheese fries and buffalo wings.

And on game day they have hot dogs with relish and mustard. It's frickin' awesome!

[InvisibleBison]

Valhalla isn't the dwarven afterlife, it's the afterlife for Thor-worshippers. While many dwarves are Thor-worshippers, he is a northern god and has worshippers throughout the entire northern continent.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not like dwarven bar food? Are ye daft? Dwarves got all the best bar food!

And they have that good dwarven beer, not that weak human stuff. (Yes, that's a reference to OtOotPC)

Salted potato chips/crisps/whatever they call them where you live, salted peanuts, salted hard pretzels.
At the upstairs lounge with bottle service they even have chilli cheese fries and buffalo wings.
And on game day they have hot dogs with relish and mustard. It's frickin' awesome!

Buffalo wings never did it for me. I'd rather have veggies with a dip (ranch dressing, hummus, sour cream onion dip) than those greasy things ... I shall now don my helmet and raise my shield to protect against incoming!
Man, you just reminded me that football season is slowly coming back ... yes!

[Peelee]

Buffalo wings never did it for me. I'd rather have veggies with a dip (ranch dressing, hummus, sour cream onion dip) than those greasy things

Hey, that just means more wings for the rest of us!

[Fyraltari]

Hey, that just means more wings for the rest of us!

Not really. There's an infuriating amount of wasted food, which I'm sure includes wings.

[brian 333]

And they have that good dwarven beer, not that weak human stuff. (Yes, that's a reference to OtOotPC)
Buffalo wings never did it for me. I'd rather have veggies with a dip (ranch dressing, hummus, sour cream onion dip) than those greasy things ... I shall now don my helmet and raise my shield to protect against incoming!
Man, you just reminded me that football season is slowly coming back ... yes!

AN ELF! WHO LET THIS TREE-HUGGING HIPPIE IN HERE?

Good news! Now we don't have to order a new dartboard from the Amazons.

[Robots]

When Belkar dies, his soul will just go hang out with some other guys. Trust me. This is factual.

[Ruck]

Valhalla isn't the dwarven afterlife, it's the afterlife for Thor-worshippers. While many dwarves are Thor-worshippers, he is a northern god and has worshippers throughout the entire northern continent.

Hilgya seemed to think she would go to Valhalla, and she worships Loki. While I'm dubious about her reasoning regarding the honor loophole, I think she's probably knowledgeable enough about the cosmology that that would indicate Valhalla isn't strictly for Thor worshippers.

[Charity322]

I thought that Valhalla was for any dwarf that managed to die honourably.

[Ruck]

I thought that Valhalla was for any dwarf that managed to die honourably.

Any dwarf that dies with honor goes to the plane that matches their alignment, according to Durkon. Although in some cases I suppose that could be affected by which god they worship; I don't think Valhalla is a Lawful Good afterlife.

[Fyraltari]

Religious mortals go to their god. It seems that Loki lives in Valhalla alongside Thor (it's possible most Northern Gods do, as they're a family and seemingly more tight-knit than the Western Gods).

Since the Dwarves we've spent the most time with are either Thor-worshipping (Durkon and his extended family + Minrah) or Loki-worshipping (Hilgya) it looks like all dwarves aim for Valhalla, but that isn't necessarily the case.

I also suspect The Giant decided to avoid confusing readers unfamiliar with D&D metaphysics by presenting only dwarves who want to go to Valhalla instead of Hel rather than muddy the waters by having different destinations.

[Charity322]

Any dwarf that dies with honor goes to the plane that matches their alignment, according to Durkon. Although in some cases I suppose that could be affected by which god they worship; I don't think Valhalla is a Lawful Good afterlife.

It can't be or Hilgya wouldn't be getting in there. Also, in that comic, Hel and Thor seemed to be fighting over that dwarf's soul directly, so having a god must affect things. Plus here https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html it looks like if you have a god then you go directly to where they live (not counting those that go to Hel).

Never noticed before that Durkon distracts Malack by asking about the statue over there, so he can sneak a flask of whiskey into his tea. XD

[Metastachydium]

AN ELF! WHO LET THIS TREE-HUGGING HIPPIE IN HERE?

(One has to wonder how tree-hugger is an accurate term for those "don't worry, I prefer to only harm plants" abominations.)

[Fyraltari]

(One has to wonder how tree-hugger is an accurate term for those "don't worry, I prefer to only harm plants" abominations.)

We've been over this before, Meta. Vegetarianism harms fewer plants than meat-eating because cattle has to eat a lot of plants to grow.

[Metastachydium]

We've been over this before, Meta.

Yup, but

Vegetarianism harms fewer plants than meat-eating because cattle has to eat a lot of plants to grow.

I'm still not buying this bit. I don't know about cattle (although there used to be largely sustainable practices on this front as well, with periodic grazing helping more than it hurt in part due to, khm, natural fertilizers being left behind by the herd), but modern industrial-level agricultural practices are incredibly invasive and highly destructive – certainly more so than keeping swine in the old way, on swill (it's making a comeback in the First World!) and beechnuts. In fact, done sensibly, the latter may even help cut back on the effective amount of food wasted.

[brian 333]

(One has to wonder how tree-hugger is an accurate term for those "don't worry, I prefer to only harm plants" abominations.)

Actually, grazing, browsing, and other heavy use of lands by herbivores improves the fertility of the land. Who would have imagined that dumping raw, unprocessed chemicals in bulk on the ground could have a negative long term effect?

Industrial monoculture, or any scale monoculture, is what harms farmlands.

The best thing you can do for grass is crop it, churn the soil, and spread decomposing plant matter on it.

Which proves that cannabalistic plants and their herbivore accomplices are evil. Eat more herbivores and break the cycle.

[Peelee]

If planties didn't want to be eaten, they wouldn't be so tasty. Heck, a fair number of planties even evolved to be tasty and be eaten as a mechanism for propagation! I'm a human, I evolved to taste quite bad. Planties evolved to taste quite nice. Simple math there. Plus I'll feed the planties when I'm gone anyway, it's the circle of life.

[Metastachydium]

a fair number of planties even evolved to be tasty and be eaten as a mechanism for propagation!

Not sure that's correct.

I'm a human,

Dragons are humans now?

I evolved to taste quite bad. (…) Plus I'll feed the planties when I'm gone anyway, it's the circle of life.

I smell a contradiction there! (You folks all taste quite good, just not for each other.)

Actually, grazing, browsing, and other heavy use of lands by herbivores improves the fertility of the land. Who would have imagined that dumping raw, unprocessed chemicals in bulk on the ground could have a negative long term effect?

Industrial monoculture, or any scale monoculture, is what harms farmlands.

I beat you to all of that by a good 12 minutes! A flower's been faster than you! How does that feel, now?

The best thing you can do for grass is crop it, churn the soil, and spread decomposing plant matter on it.

Which proves that cannabalistic plants and their herbivore accomplices are evil.

Hey, at least we clean up after ourselves!

Eat more herbivores and break the cycle.

#KillAllGoats

[Peelee]

Dragons are humans now?

Well, Polymorph and all that jazz. They don't make phones in dragon size. Yet.

#KillAllGoats

Goats are damned tasty...

[Fyraltari]

Yup, but



I'm still not buying this bit. I don't know about cattle (although there used to be largely sustainable practices on this front as well, with periodic grazing helping more than it hurt in part due to, khm, natural fertilizers being left behind by the herd), but modern industrial-level agricultural practices are incredibly invasive and highly destructive – certainly more so than keeping swine in the old way, on swill (it's making a comeback in the First World!) and beechnuts. In fact, done sensibly, the latter may even help cut back on the effective amount of food wasted.

It's simple really. Take a ten year old pig. It can be slaughtered to harvest an certain amount of meat. Now, during its ten years of life, that pig had to be fed a certain amount of vegetal matter. Now which amount do you think is greater the amount of meat in the pig, or the amount of plant it's eaten in ten years?

[Metastachydium]

Well, Polymorph and all that jazz. They don't make phones in dragon size. Yet.

Well, soon you'll take over the government or whatever, so I like your chances.

It's simple really. Take a ten year old pig. It can be slaughtered to harvest an certain amount of meat. Now, during its ten years of life, that pig had to be fed a certain amount of vegetal matter. Now which amount do you think is greater the amount of meat in the pig, or the amount of plant it's eaten in ten years?

The actual question is the degree to which eating the pig (which is in part a function of its energy value) reduces the total amount of matter harvested from plants over the period in question, which depending on how the pigs are kept (v. above) does not have to look as bad as you think it looks.

[Peelee]

Well, soon you'll take over the government or whatever, so I like your chances.

Psh. Planties are notoriously poor at bureaucracy. Why, they don't even have a central bureaucracy!

[brian 333]

It's simple really. Take a ten year old pig. It can be slaughtered to harvest an certain amount of meat. Now, during its ten years of life, that pig had to be fed a certain amount of vegetal matter. Now which amount do you think is greater the amount of meat in the pig, or the amount of plant it's eaten in ten years?

If you are doing anything with a ten year old pig besides breeding it with other pigs then you are doing it wrong. 3 years is about as old as any pig you'd want to eat. The question is, can those plants and other matter eaten by pigs provide the nutritional requirements of humans, (or dragons?) Just as a metallurgist takes ore, refines it, and makes a better material, herbivores refine plants into a more suitable material for human, (and dragon,) consumption.

But: don't eat pig. Good for wolves; bad for humans. Goats, sheep, deer, cattle, bison, wildebeest, buffalo, and virtually any exclusive plant eater is good. I have not yet tried to eat a vegan, so I cannot confirm if they are the rule or the exception, but having read a bit on spongiform encephalitis I am tempted to take a position of "avoid until proven safe."

[Clistenes]

When everything is lost, Redcloak has died refusing to help seal the Rifts, the Snarl is escaping, Belkar is dead and his soul has fallen to the Abyss to be turned into a larva...

...Banjo the Clown and his brother Giggles, who have both ascended to godhood thanks to the worship of orc tribes, appear and claim Belkar's soul as theirs (remember, Belkar and Haley briefly became Banjo's two first worshipers, and Belkar sacrificed to him...).

Paraphrasing Terry Pratchett: "I.-THIS IS OURS. II.-HE'S GREAT PRIEST AND PROPHET AMONG PROPHETS. III.-DO I LISTEN ANY OBJECTION? NO? GOOD...".

Banjo and Giggle rescue Belkar's soul, lend their Quiddity to help close the Rifts forever, and Belkar spends the rest of eternity getting drunk and fighting drunk orcs in the orc afterlife...