When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?

[RatElemental]

While I like the idea of not starting out with the Abyss having first right of refusal (I doubt they'd refuse much, if any), "belakr not seeing himself as evil to the core" and "chaotic good afterlife" don't belong side by side. You're completely skipping over Neutral. Hell, if anything, "not evil to the core" might be argument for Pandemonium, which still sucks hard.

I do agree that the maybe in my post is doing a lot of heavy lifting. The idea of seeing a horrified deva judging Belkar was too funny to not include though.

[Mechalich]

The afterlife Belkar probably wants is that of Ysgard - an eternity of battling and partying, sometimes at the same time. The afterlife Belkar probably matches is probably Pandemonium, a dysfunctional madness-tinged tunnel maze forever on the edge of the war of all-against-all.

Belkar could conceivably work his way up to Limbo, mostly by balancing out his tendency towards casual bullying violence with some actual heroism. An eternity in Limbo is kind of weird to think about, since it's hard to imagine anyone wanting that much randomness, but I can see Belkar working his way over to 'roughly Slaadi' on the morality pie chart.

[brian 333]

Given that oots cosmology seems to work with you going where you think you deserve so they have right of first refusal, and Belkar somewhat recently starting to see himself as not being evil to the core, I could maybe see him showing up in the chaotic good afterlife, followed by a couple panels of the deva judging him looking horrified and almost losing their lunch, before they get to the bit where he turned over a new leaf and he gets kicked over to the chaotic neutral afterlife for further review.

Would Shojo be his advocate?

"Sure, he's a murderous sociopath, but at the end his murdering was mostly focused on those who were in the way of saving the world."

Okay, where's Eugene when you need him?

[Liquor Box]

He doesn't actually do anything other than grumbling in no. 14, I only linked it to show that Belkar still thinks of stabbing people as a legitimate way of dealing with (possibly unrelated) issues; meanwhile, a limited capacity to empathise with others is a huge red flag and the "your weak low level ass, honey" comment was not an assessment of Minrah's usefulness. It was a condescending, casually sexist double insult meant to sting. That he kind of still wants to take the "exact words" route if that allows him to harm his own teammates also reflects poorly on him.

His comment was certainly condescending and probably insulting too, and it was arguably sexist to refer to her as honey. But even if so, I don't think it amounts to evil.

On the perspective that there's a ledger to be paid off, he's clearly going to an unpleasant afterlife still.

In discussions of Serini's alignment people were pointing to her taking steps to save the world (arguably at her own risk) as significantly boosting her up the good/evil spectrum. I don't know if that's how it works, or how much motivation etc plays into. But if it is a factor, then Belkar has done a lot toward saving the word at considerable risk to himself - more than Serini I would say. That could possibly be seen as a pretty significant entry on the positive side of the ledger - especially if it is boosted further by some heroic sacrifice at the end.

[JonahFalcon]

I've already said Belkar's heading to Warrior's Rest. His kinda place.

[woweedd]

Assuming he isn't killed by the Snarl, placing a bet: The last we hear of him after he does some grand heroic sacrifice that would have been unthinkable when we first met him is a voice resonating out from the general vicinity of Limbo saying "WHAT? I've been Chaotic Evil my whole life!"

[Precure]

In discussions of Serini's alignment people were pointing to her taking steps to save the world (arguably at her own risk) as significantly boosting her up the good/evil spectrum. I don't know if that's how it works, or how much motivation etc plays into. But if it is a factor, then Belkar has done a lot toward saving the word at considerable risk to himself - more than Serini I would say. That could possibly be seen as a pretty significant entry on the positive side of the ledger - especially if it is boosted further by some heroic sacrifice at the end.

Belkar doesn't even understand/care about what's going on until few days ago. No way he could done more than her.

As for defending him from Miko, there's a vast gulf between preventing someone from being murdered and bringing someone back to life.

I can't see how.

[Liquor Box]

Belkar doesn't even understand/care about what's going on until few days ago. No way he could done more than her.

That's simply not supported by the comic. In the first strip of Blood Run in the Family, he refers to their mission, so he clearly knew what was going on. And I see no reason for him to accompany the order except to save the world.

[KorvinStarmast]

Assuming he isn't killed by the Snarl, placing a bet: The last we hear of him after he does some grand heroic sacrifice that would have been unthinkable when we first met him is a voice resonating out from the general vicinity of Limbo saying "WHAT? I've been Chaotic Evil my whole life!"

Burn!

And I see no reason for him to accompany the order except to save the world.

Other than the dream montage which preceded that, and Belkar arrives at something a bit more as an objective: to the top of the heap or bust

Spoiler: implied task

Show

(with the imbedded objective of metaphorically climbing a mountain so that he can pee down on "everyone")

Pretending to be a team player hardly counts as "I will save the world" at that point. The big shift began after Durkon sacrificed himself to save Belkar's life.

[Metastachydium]

If you agree that Roy & co. are noticing that Belkar's getting better (or at least more productive), then why are you ruling out the possibility of them wanting to rez him? Is it just simply how far he still has to go, and how little time he has for it? I can understand thinking it's a long shot (and I don't think it's a certainty by any means), but "they realize they actually care about Belkar and, even weirder, he cares about them" doesn't feel like a laughable premise to me, given how much it's been discussed on-panel.

(…)

I think it's notable that Belkar is only seen attacking one of Serini's friends (Floor Boi), and he only stabs it once to reveal the "trapdoor." It retracts and then just sits there, with the "tired" eyes, for the rest of the strip, and Belkar doesn't keep attacking which feels unlike him. Now, it's possible that the floor boi simply wasn't fun enough to kill, but I think it's a sign that Belkar's now focusing more on the team objective than his own insatiable bloodlust - even if he leads with what he knows (stabbing).



I agree that many of these qualities (especially the limited capacity to empathize) would be beyond worrisome in any other companion. But in Belkar, they're an almost miraculous shift in behavior because the bar started off so very low. The rate of change is practically exponential, and you could extrapolate that over the few remaining days to predict how far he might still have left to go.

As evidenced by deva's chart, yes, Belkar's gone a long, long way. That sword cuts both ways, though. Belkar's always been and still is impulsive; all that changed is him being better at sublimation. Now, as you correctly pointed out, his growth can only be accurately depicted as an exponential curve, which is to say, it did indeed happen very fast. Who's to tell (in-universe, of course) that the pendulum's not going to swing back just as fast? Roy and Haley certainly suspect there's some foul play involved in the emergence of Belkar, the Party's Li'l Helper at the end of DStP. They aren't wrong at that point either.

The Belkar of today's certainly an infinitely better and more useful member of the Order than the Belkar of three books ago; however, as much sense as it may have made from our outside perspective, the driving forces behind this change were a sudden revelation and a huge trauma. In other words (to repeat myself) it happened very fast, fast enough to raise some questions. Those involved (other than, perhaps, Minrah and Elan) can all see that it feels "wrong" on some level, and they (including Belkar) don't neccessarily hesitate to voice that feeling. Red flags, in the meantime continue to abound. I wouldn't blame Roy for sticking with the idea of running out the clock; he'd mayhaps even feel relief to see Belkar die before he could regress.

Hmm, my read on that scene was that the deva really validated Roy's choice to associate with & control Belkar, in an "I don't agree with your methods, but dammit I can't argue with the results!" It was an interesting strip at the time to examine why Roy would choose to work with someone so obviously evil and it made some interesting points (especially about villains who only stay in jail for 5 minutes). But I came away from it feeling like Roy's behavior was more or less accepted by Celestia, and he didn't seem to have any future concern about continuing to associate with Belkar.

I've read it pretty much the same way.

Given that oots cosmology seems to work with you going where you think you deserve so they have right of first refusal, and Belkar somewhat recently starting to see himself as not being evil to the core, I could maybe see him showing up in the chaotic good afterlife, followed by a couple panels of the deva judging him looking horrified and almost losing their lunch,

"Why isn't he jolly? WHY ISN'T HE JOLLY???"

before they get to the bit where he turned over a new leaf and he gets kicked over to the chaotic neutral afterlife for further review.

While I like the idea of not starting out with the Abyss having first right of refusal (I doubt they'd refuse much, if any), "belakr not seeing himself as evil to the core" and "chaotic good afterlife" don't belong side by side. You're completely skipping over Neutral. Hell, if anything, "not evil to the core" might be argument for Pandemonium, which still sucks hard.

Given that Roy could have ended up in the True Neutral bin, I wouldn't say that what Rat says is impossible. It's merely less than plausible.

Okay, where's Eugene when you need him?

The guy who can't get himself into his preferred afterlife and who's not even on speaking term with the angels anymore? I'd go with "still on his cloud".

His comment was certainly condescending and probably insulting too, and it was arguably sexist to refer to her as honey. But even if so, I don't think it amounts to evil.

"»Good« implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. (…)

»Evil« implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others."

Emphases mine. I'd argue that deliberately trying to rob a sentient being of her dignity by belittling her in a way that is meant to hurt her does qualify as an Evil act.

Belkar doesn't even understand/care about what's going on until few days ago. No way he could done more than her.

That's simply not supported by the comic. In the first strip of Blood Run in the Family, he refers to their mission, so he clearly knew what was going on. And I see no reason for him to accompany the order except to save the world.

The canonical truth is perhaps a tad bit more complicated. Belkar was certainly and demonstrably well aware of the scope of their mission by the time DStP rolled around, but he was, khm, a tad bit fuzzy on the details until after he'd recently attended Elan's recounting of the previous six books.

[Psyren]

While Belkar is becoming a better person, the crucial step to redemption he has yet to show any inclination towards is restitution towards his past victims, e.g. Solt's surviving friends/family. Without that, I find it unlikely Belkar would be able to truly avoid any kind of punishment in the afterlife, except being unmade via the Snarl.

Incidentally, being unmade would probably work for Xykon too as a way to "avoid the Big Fire Below."

[Liquor Box]

Burn!
Other than the dream montage which preceded that, and Belkar arrives at something a bit more as an objective: to the top of the heap or bust

Spoiler: implied task

Show

(with the imbedded objective of metaphorically climbing a mountain so that he can pee down on "everyone")

Pretending to be a team player hardly counts as "I will save the world" at that point. The big shift began after Durkon sacrificed himself to save Belkar's life.

I feel like that's more of a general strategy toward living and dealing with others by him, rather than an overriding motivation for going on a mission to the western (or northern) continent.

But I'm certainly not suggesting his motivation for contributing toward saving the world is altruistic. It may just be because he lives in it, and has a personal interest in keeping it intact. But, again, that's no different from Serini or most other characters for that matter.

I don;t know if that;s a big plus in their ledger for those characters or not.

"»Good« implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. (…)

»Evil« implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others."

Emphases mine. I'd argue that deliberately trying to rob a sentient being of her dignity by belittling her in a way that is meant to hurt her does qualify as an Evil act.

Does saying something condescending and possibly sexist remove Minrah's dignity, hurt or oppress her? It occurs to me that the comment is probably comparable to bonking someone on the head in terms of the question of whether it's too minor to be an evil action or not. We don't have any real information on whether there's a minimum threshold or not or whether these sorts of comments, minor acts of violence qualify. They may be seen as evil, but they are right at the minor end of the scale.

[KorvinStarmast]

But I'm certainly not suggesting his motivation for contributing toward saving the world is altruistic.

Concur at the moment, but I think that what Rich is doing here, particularly in light of the extended conversation Belkar and Durkon had after the Durkula battle, is slowly having Belkar buy into the mission due to a change of heart/internal conversion. Minrah also has contributed to with the (you can change!) mini rant.

[Silly Name]

Does saying something condescending and possibly sexist remove Minrah's dignity, hurt or oppress her? It occurs to me that the comment is probably comparable to bonking someone on the head in terms of the question of whether it's too minor to be an evil action or not. We don't have any real information on whether there's a minimum threshold or not or whether these sorts of comments, minor acts of violence qualify. They may be seen as evil, but they are right at the minor end of the scale.

Minor acts of Evil are still acts of Evil. A single demeaning comment to someone isn't going to consign you to the Lower Planes, of course, but Belkar's attitude is still one of being belittling and demeaning towards basically anyone - now, if Belkar wasn't a mass murdering psycopath, this attitude could be qualified as minor enough to allow for debate on whether it's proof enough he's Evil or simply "not Good". But this is not the case, and the belittling, sexist comments are simply a reflection of his wider worldview in which only Belkar and his immediate desires have value.

Now, I'll recognise that Belkar's been struggling with realising he's able to emphatise with other people and beings, and is possibly heading down the path of being something other than Chaotic Evil - but that's a long road, and many steps removed from Chaotic Good.

But here's the thing: we know what it takes to actually be redeemed in the eyes of the Afterlife of the OotS world, and it's not for everyone. Belkar has yet to show genuine remorse for his past atrocities and misdeeds, and he has never expressed or hinted at considering the possibility of seeking to make amends. Compare this to V who, after understanding the horrific consequence of casting Familicide and realising what they had really done, was (and still is) horrified by themselves. V may not ever have been Good, and it's possible they'll never be, but if they have the time to try and do their best to atone for the Familicide? Then V may not be doomed to the Lower Planes.

I doubt Belkar has any such hopes.

[KorvinStarmast]

A single demeaning comment to someone isn't going to consign you to the Lower Planes,

Being rude is not the same as being evil.

[RatElemental]

But here's the thing: we know what it takes to actually be redeemed in the eyes of the Afterlife of the OotS world, and it's not for everyone.

I always took that to mean that reinstituting paladin abilities took more than what Miko did, but I suppose the giant might be speaking more generally there.

Belkar has yet to show genuine remorse for his past atrocities and misdeeds, and he has never expressed or hinted at considering the possibility of seeking to make amends..

He has, kind of, but it's a baby step. I'm of the opinion that Belkar is on a path that if followed would lead to redemption, it's just that he's slated to die long before he gets there.

[Liquor Box]

Minor acts of Evil are still acts of Evil. A single demeaning comment to someone isn't going to consign you to the Lower Planes, of course, but Belkar's attitude is still one of being belittling and demeaning towards basically anyone.

Being rude is not the same as being evil.

I'm thinking that there's no real 'correct' answer as to whether minor things like being insulting (or a painful but not damaging hit with a stick) are very minor acts of evil, or not evil at all.

'Evil' doesn't exist in the real world, at least not in the way it does in 3.5, so applying our real world morality doesn't get us very far in terms of in game morality. The description of evil and good in the rules is castbroadly enough that it is open to interpretation whether rudeness or minor violence can be minor evil, and there's nothing in-comic to proivde a perspective on how it's interpreted in OotSverse.

I think either interpretation is possible.

[Mic_128]

Being rude is not the same as being evil.

I would tend to agree, although it was brought up by the Bureaucratic Diva during Roy's judgement.

"Sometimes you enjoy lambasting your friends and foes a little too much for our tastes"

EDIT: Actually, on rereading that, it's also worth pointing out the Diva's comment about trying being important. Belkar trying to be better could be the difference between one afterlife and another.

[brian 333]

I would tend to agree, although it was brought up by the Bureaucratic Diva during Roy's judgement.

"Sometimes you enjoy lambasting your friends and foes a little too much for our tastes"

EDIT: Actually, on rereading that, it's also worth pointing out the Diva's comment about trying being important. Belkar trying to be better could be the difference between one afterlife and another.

Would a Chaotic being judge by the same standards a Lawful Good one uses?

I can see this situation:
Slaad: Welcome to Limbo.
Belkar: Wait, is this where I belong? I was thinking I would end up in The Abyss, or at least Pandemonium.
Slaad: Who cares? Why am I even talking to you? Do whatever you want, I have better things to do than talk to newbies.

[Mic_128]

Would a Chaotic being judge by the same standards a Lawful Good one uses?

I can see this situation:
Slaad: Welcome to Limbo.
Belkar: Wait, is this where I belong? I was thinking I would end up in The Abyss, or at least Pandemonium.
Slaad: Who cares? Why am I even talking to you? Do whatever you want, I have better things to do than talk to newbies.

I dunno. Surely a "chaotic judge" could just as easily kick someone into Celestia because why not?

[brian 333]

I dunno. Surely a "chaotic judge" could just as easily kick someone into Celestia because why not?

Because green bicycle tires.

I'm sure that at least once this has happened. It would have a result similar to teleporting a fire elemental to the plane of water.

[Fyraltari]

Would a Chaotic being judge by the same standards a Lawful Good one uses?

I can see this situation:
Slaad: Welcome to Limbo.
Belkar: Wait, is this where I belong? I was thinking I would end up in The Abyss, or at least Pandemonium.
Slaad: Who cares? Why am I even talking to you? Do whatever you want, I have better things to do than talk to newbies.

I think it's important for the planes that the souls they welcome in are of the right alignment because if not, absorbing them would "pollute" the whole plane ever so slightly (assuming it's even possible to absorb them at all). So even if their methodology or behaviour about it are very different from Celestia's, they'd have to be just as thorough.

[JonahFalcon]

It's not acts. It's intent.

Remember the deva telling Roy that she could chuck his case to the Neutral Good afterlife without blinking except he's trying to be Lawful Good.

It's easy for celestial beings to uphold strict LG morality. But Roy lives on the mortal world. Yes, he uses Chaotic methods on occasion, but he's not even a paladin.

[Sir_Norbert]

And Belkar was not trying to be LG at the time he murdered all those people, so I'm not sure what your point is.

[JonahFalcon]

And Belkar was not trying to be LG at the time he murdered all those people, so I'm not sure what your point is.

[Rrmcklin]

Looking at the thread, I'm not sure why the idea some in the Order might try to revive Belkar if they're able is apparently so farfetched. Yeah, he's still evil, but he's also beginning to change - even Roy has acknowledged that. So I do not see the argument of "Durkon or Elan would like to give him the chance to see where the growth goes" is somehow apparently so farfetched and ridiculous. It's not a given but it's also hardly laughable or nonsensical.

And as for arguments of "they don't try to revive everyone else who dies around them so why would Belkar be different?" people generally react to stuff that happens to people they actually know and/or spend time with differently than strangers. Yes, even accounting for whether they liked the person or not.

[Silly Name]

-snip-

Because the Oracle prophesied that Belkar would draw his last breath ever before the end of the (in-world) year.

Obviously there's some wiggle room here (he could become an undead, for example), but it definitely means he's not getting Resurrected.

Personally, I also agree that it's unlikely at this point people like Elan and Durkon and Minrah would just... not do anything when Belkar dies. It was more believable before Durkon got vamped (and Belkar actually started trying to be helpful and somewhat more sociable), when the argument of "why would we give Belkar a new chance at being a serial killer/mass-murderer?" would have resonated with the readers much more easily. At this point I suspect that it'll be simply a case of Belkar dying in such a way that Resurrection just isn't on the table.

[Rrmcklin]

Because the Oracle prophesied that Belkar would draw his last breath ever before the end of the (in-world) year.

Obviously there's some wiggle room here (he could become an undead, for example), but it definitely means he's not getting Resurrected.

Personally, I also agree that it's unlikely at this point people like Elan and Durkon and Minrah would just... not do anything when Belkar dies. It was more believable before Durkon got vamped (and Belkar actually started trying to be helpful and somewhat more sociable), when the argument of "why would we give Belkar a new chance at being a serial killer/mass-murderer?" would have resonated with the readers much more easily. At this point I suspect that it'll be simply a case of Belkar dying in such a way that Resurrection just isn't on the table.

You seem to have glossed over the part where I said if they were able. I am aware of the prophecy, I was specifically addressing the hypothetical of whether the Order would even attempt to bring him back, not whether they would succeed or not.

And I said that's something worth discussion because the distinction between "they just wouldn't bother even if it were possible" and "he died and it's not possible to bring him back even if they wanted" is important.

[Peelee]

Looking at the thread, I'm not sure why the idea some in the Order might try to revive Belkar if they're able is apparently so farfetched.

Because Roy has pretty much said as much, for one.

[Mic_128]

Because Roy has pretty much said as much, for one.

Which was before he started being helpful after the Mark of Justice went off, and before he started actually caring about other people after Durkon sacrificed himself. A lot has changed since that strip.