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2022-06-07, 05:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-06-07 at 05:05 AM.
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2022-06-07, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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- massachusetts
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2022-06-07, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-06-07, 06:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
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- Ottawa, Canada
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
I don’t see Belkar ending up in any non-evil afterlife. A life spent murdering people for fun, followed by a couple weeks of trying to be genuinely cooperative and and asset to his team - but without any remorse or repentance for all the previous murder, slave-trading, and other forms of evil, much less any thought of atonement - is not remotely enough to make him non-evil.
I think him being destroyed by the Snarl is by far the most likely option.Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2022-06-07 at 06:57 AM.
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2022-06-07, 07:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
And Roy still sees Belkar as making people's lives harder, and as a pretty wretched person, as of a couple of days or so ago:
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2022-06-07, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Roy knows that he 'got away' with hanging around with Belkar because it was down as an attempt to redeem an evil doer - and he knows that trying counts for a lot with the upper planes, as such now that he has reason to believe that Belkar might be on the path to redemption he might feel the need to help him get there - which Belkar will not be able to do if he was dead.
In panel 8 when Haley states that Belkar was being employee of the month he immediately queried if it was genuine.
In panel 20 and 22 he specifically included Belkar in an important decision as he wanted everyone on the same page.
In panel 6 he moved to save Belkar and in panel 11 and 12 trusted him to plan how to save them.
In panel 5 he implied that he didn't think that Belkar was 'still an untrustworthy jerk'.
We don't know how much of this conversation Roy remembers but he did acknowledge Belkar being helpful here (while also thinking that Belkar hadn't really changed).
Whether he remembers or not however he did note on panel 7 that Belkar was 'trying a thing' what 'a thing' is might be up in the air but 'being a better person' might be the answer.
None of this is in any way conclusive that Roy wouldn't just wash his hands of Belkar in a good riddance sort of way if the halfling dies, but as far back as panels 9 and 10 he did regard Belkar as one of his people and based on the Elan issue it is reasonable to think that the upper planes take a dim view of leaving one of your people behind, and if they take a dim view of that leaving one of your people to suffer in the Abyss likely wouldn't please them overly.
edit: spelling and grammer.Last edited by dancrilis; 2022-06-07 at 09:32 AM.
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2022-06-07, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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- massachusetts
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
I think this is the important bit: Roy isn't reaffirming that he sees Belkar as an irredeemable monster; he actually thinks Belkar is redeemable and it's finally worthwhile to push him to be less of an anal fistula. And it ends up paying off in less than 10 strips.
Maybe it's not enough for him to front the diamonds for a Raise Dead, but I think it's enough for him to not veto the idea if Durkon, Elan, and Minrah suggest it.
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2022-06-10, 05:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2022
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
I disagree. Roy may be ruthless enough to not bring back his ally, but Durkon (i.e. the guy who can cast the spell) is all about honor and loyalty. If Belkar picks a bar fight or something like that after the quest and gets killed, then Durkon may think resurrecting him is a waste, but if Belkar dies while helping the Order fulfil its duty it would feel dishonorable not to bring him back. Doubly so if he believes Belkar is turning a new leaf and raising him could save him from an eternity in evil afterlife
My money is on Belkar dying in a manner that prevents resurrection. Either dying to Snarl or being disintegrated. That seems like the only way him not being raised would make sense
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2022-06-10, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Here's something I don't think has been brought up yet. What if Belkar dies and doesn't want to be resurrected? We know from Shojo that the Spiro has to be willing to return.
I don't have a good explanation for the moment as to why he wouldn't want to come back, buy did want to put that on the table.
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2022-06-10, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
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- State of Uncertainty
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
It occurs to me that there is objective proof that the universe still considered Belkar "Evil" when his clasp got activated in the big fight against Durkula. So I suppose the question would be how much has he changed since then. His conversations with Minrah and Durkon indicate that he definitely is, but on the other hand it's been what, 3 or 4 days strip time since then? Not much time for gradual change that you don't even realize is happening.
Of course, he could still register as "Evil" to magic but be just on the tipping point.Some people think that Chaotic Neutral is the alignment of the insane, but the enlightened know that Chaotic Neutral is the only alignment without illusions of sanity.
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2022-06-10, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2022
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
He's definitely still evil, that's for sure, but he might not be by the end of the story. If he commits an extraordinary act of selflessness, e.g. sacrifices his own life for the sake of his friends in a battle against Xycon, that would probably cause his alignment to shift. Of course that would make the shift irrelevant for the rest of the Order but it would change his afterlife destination
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2022-06-10, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
- Location
- Texas
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Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2022-06-10, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Spoiler: Avatar: The Last AirbenderZuko spent two and a half seasons trying to either kill Aang or capture him so he could turn him over to, presumably, lifelong imprisonment. He had a change of heart in the span of about a week, and the gAang took all of one episode to accept him into their ranks. To the point that Katara heals him to save his life in the finale. Despite knowing him as "our main villain" for so long, the group quickly changes their perception of him with just a few good-faith deeds on his part.
My point being: fiction loves a good redemption arc, and it lends itself to big showy displays to justify them. Real-world logic of how you should treat somebody based on their long-term patterns of behavior doesn't really apply in the same way.Last edited by Ionathus; 2022-06-10 at 01:52 PM.
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2022-06-10, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Ruthless? Belkar, even as the Order's ally, has murdered plenty of people. He used to sell people into slavery. I'm sorry, but I hardly think it's "ruthless" to say "this abjectly terrible person should be brought back to life because he helped us a few times". It would be ruthless to murder him. It would be ruthless to send him on a suicide mission. It would not be ruthless to simply not grant him a second life after he lost his first.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-06-11, 07:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
I personally think The Snarl gets him and there is nothing left to resurrect, but assume he goes to the Abyss.
A whole infinity of planes filled with beings he can kill for fun, forever? Awww, man!
"Hi, I'm your personal demon, and I will flay you thrice daily for eternity."
"Glad to meet you. I'm Belkar and this is Mr.Stabby, my psionic knife."
"Ow! Hey, that hurts! My eye! My other eye! Hey! You're supposed to tremble in fear, not disembowel me!"
"Hey, Bellar, Durkon here. Would you like a raise? I mean, I've already spent the diamond, so..."
"Are you kidding? This place rocks!"
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2022-06-22, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015
- Location
- Behind you. RIGHT NOW.
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Spoiler: ATLATrue, but Zuko never killed any noncombatants, or traded slaves. By my recollection, he never killed anyone. There’s also a few extenuating circumstances to consider. Zuko was raised to be evil, and frankly saw being evil as a burden to bear even from the beginning. Belkar killed people for fun. Zuko’s worst act, that caused his uncle to despair and give up on him for a little while, was betraying his uncle to team up with Azula and go after the Avatar, the thing he’d been doing since the start anyway, in a scene that resulted in the deaths of ZERO people.
Also, it took one episode for them to determine "I don’t think he’s going to betray us, and we’re not going to find another volunteer to teach Aang firebending." It took a few more episodes for them to start letting him in.Last edited by Xihirli; 2022-06-22 at 07:35 PM.
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2022-07-01, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
He'll enjoy Pandesmos.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Pandesmos
Maybe Durkon can get him into Jotunheim.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/JotunheimLast edited by JonahFalcon; 2022-07-01 at 09:00 PM.
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2022-07-01, 09:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
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2022-07-02, 04:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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- massachusetts
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
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2022-07-02, 05:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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2022-07-02, 06:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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- massachusetts
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2022-07-02, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Why would a character like Belkar not have made a little coin on the side? Is it morally more repugnant than killing a guy for his candy bar?
There is only circumstantial evidence, and a suggestion by Belkar that he is willing, so we have no absolute proof, but knowing what we know about Belkar, where is the evidence he wouldn't or didn't engage in the slave trade?
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2022-07-02, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2020
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2022-07-02, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2022-07-02, 09:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
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- New Zealand
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
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2022-07-02, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Where is the source that says The Oracle's visions are 'from Tiamat'?
My reading is that Tiamat granted the power to see the future to The Oracle, not that she sees the future then shares what she sees. Tiamat is never cited as having the ability to see the future, but the cross-domain agreement allows her to grant powers to her worshippers in the same way that Hel granted Durkula the Control Weather spell. So far as we know, Tiamat cannot see the future at all, so her ability or inability to see The Snarl isn't relevant.
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2022-07-02, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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- massachusetts
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2022-07-02, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Between you and peelee, this is a circular argument. Peelee said him selling into slavery helps demonstrate that he's 'terrible' and you are saying that because he's terrible it's believable that he sells people into slavery. Either might be a reasonable inference if the premise were true but in both cases the premise is being justified partly by conclusion, which is circular.
The same thing was happening less obviously in the discussion of Serini. "I think Serini's good so I interpret her action X way, and because of X I think Serini is good".
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2022-07-02, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Circular reasoning would require one person making both arguments, or each of us relying on the other argument. Neither is the case (or, at least, I am not relying on anyone else's arguments). It's more two separate people saying two separate things from the other side of things.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-07-02, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
I don't think it requires it to be the same person at all. But I agree you need to rely on the other conclusion as being at least part of the reasoning for your premise.
You didn't tell us what your premise was for thinking Belkar used to sell people into slavery? Was it just a misremembering of what Dancrilis referred to?