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2022-07-10, 07:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-07-10, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
I think it's perfectly reasonable to suspect ambiguity or duplicity on the part of the Oracle, since after all he didn't outright say that Belkar will die. The wording invites speculation, and that's almost definitely intentional. The problem is, no one has ever proposed an alternative theory that fitted everything the Oracle said (no birthday cake, no retirement plan, not long for this world, last breath ever), or at least any theories that didn't hinge on the Oracle simply lying or being wrong (about something he explicitly bothered to check).
The Oracle might have an interest in the Order thinking that Belkar will die, because it allows Roy to wait it out instead of having to make a decision about Belkar - he might have ditched him if he didn't think it was a short-term problem, and that might have been bad if Belkar has an important role to play in saving the world. Maybe that's why he told Roy on the record. And maybe he just enjoys the idea of Belkar dying because, well, Belkar killed him, and also because he doesn't like the Order in general. If the prophecy ends up being subverted, this would explain things adequately enough for my taste and I wouldn't have any problem with it.
But the issue remains - so far no one has been able to come up with an idea that fits all the comments the Oracle made, except for the obvious one: that Belkar is going to die very soon.ungelic is us
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2022-07-10, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
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- New Zealand
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
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2022-07-10, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
The planet in the rift was lifeless, according to Lauren. So, unless it was out of range of her psionic sensors, there is no life there.
Our world has on the order of 20,000 species of life forms in a typical liter of seawater. This forms not only the vast majority of atmospheric oxygen, but the basis of every food web on the planet. Certainly, the planet in the rift may operate by other rules, but one would suppose, absent any other data, that aquatic life would exist anywhere that life exists.
I find it most likely that The Snarl has not yet created or seeded life on the planet in the rift.
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2022-07-10, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Last edited by InvisibleBison; 2022-07-10 at 09:41 AM.
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2022-07-10, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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2022-07-10, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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2022-07-10, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2022
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- Misery (h/t XTC)
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
I don't know, I think that's a little off the mark, since thus far every single thing the Oracle has said has turned out to be quite true for the questions that were asked. Not only was the Oracle quite clear in his answers for all six members of the Order, he even went out of his way with Roy to see if maybe Roy wanted to ask a better question than the one he was asking, because the Oracle was entirely aware that the answer to Roy's question - while accurate - would not give him the information he was actually looking for. And let's note that the biggest "twist" to an Oracle prophecy was Durkon returning to the Dwarven homelands as a vampire, a prophecy which was in no way ambiguous or unclear. Not to mention that even with Roy's carefully worded circuitous question, the Oracle still gave him the right answer.
Don't misunderstand me, it's clear that we're on the same page since the rest of your post points out that no one has yet produced a theory that accounts for everything the Oracle has predicted vis-a-vis Belkar while still providing a loophole where he isn't actually dead. It just feels to me at this point that people looking for "maybe the Oracle didn't really mean he was going to die" are not actually in the realm of perfectly reasonable. We got the fake-out with Malak, that's it. Belkar is going to die before the end of the year.
What I haven't seen people proposing is, for example, the far more logical supposition - Belkar dies because everyone else does, too. Maybe he just doesn't come back."But it always seemed weird to me to get mad about things going wrong, as if everything turning out OK was promised to anyone, ever. There wouldn't need to be paladins if the world was, like, fair." -Lien
I get to be a favorite today!
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2022-07-10, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
The original planet would have been made up of 4 quidities, and the whole point of Thor's plan is that a 4 quidity world can contain the snarl. It's kind of odd that the snarl hasn't physically ripped it all apart but maybe in the vigintilion eons it's been trapped in there it got bored of doing that every time the pieces accreted back into a planet through gravity.
As far as Belkar's prophecy being wrong, I suppose him getting banished to the astral plane would work. You don't need to eat or breathe there, it's not in the world, investments wouldn't mean much and Belkar floating forever in a silvery insubstantial sea of ideas might be enough to make the Oracle happy about it.Last edited by RatElemental; 2022-07-10 at 07:31 PM.
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2022-07-10, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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- Earth and/or not-Earth
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2022-07-11, 07:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
We very rarely see characters of any playable race treat with goblins at all outside of combat type situations.
I agree. I think the Giant likes to prompt these sort of discussions, so seeds them in his comic all the time. Like when Durkon ranked Belkar the party member he'd third most like to marry - prompting discussion of his order of preference.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2022-07-11 at 07:11 AM.
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2022-07-11, 07:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2022-07-11, 07:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
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2022-07-11, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2020
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Alright, here's one: for his unrepentant murder of a gnome which he described as an act of war (and which can therefore be understood as an informal declaration of war), he will be captured by the Gnomeland Security. The gnomes have powerful magic at their disposal and to punish him, they will
1. turn him into a gnome, and, more specifically, an air gnomeUA;
2. which is neccessary because air gnomes have the Breathless special ability, i.e. they don't breath;
3. which in turn is neccessary because they will sentence him to forced labour;
4. on the Plane of Earth which is not exactly rich in air;
5. and his sentence will be an effective life sentence, so he'll never "retire" (not that serving time is a job).
6. Lastly, since the gnomes are twisted, cruel little twits, knowing his refined palate, they'll only feed him watery gruel until the day he dies.
Is this demented? Well, yes.
Does it cover all the hints? Well, yes again.
Does it rely on anything we don't know about? Well, we've never seen an air gnome, but otherwise no, it doesn't.
So… Profit, I suppose?
I think you're overstating the likelihood of Detect Fish being among Laurin's powers known.
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2022-07-11, 07:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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2022-07-11, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Occasionally people noted that there was absolutely nothing stopping Durkon being resurrected, since the Oracle had not said "last breath ever" for him. Other than that, people barely talked about his prophecy.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2022-07-11, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Agree with basically everything you said here. I'm also open to some sort of loophole but can't imagine what that would look like. My main guess remains that Belkar really will die. But that's not set in stone.
Yeah, in a similar vein technically everything Roy's done since the end of DtsP has been "posthumous."
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2022-07-11, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
I think you are forgetting a few more fake-outs, at least
- Dying in Girard's illusion
- Jumping off from Mechane (several times) while being dominated, saved by comedic interpretation (jumping off while getting snagged)
- Getting thrown off a mountain at Godsmoot, saved by precautionary magic item
Anyway, it's pretty much clear that his death is either going to be somehow significant (think heroic sacrifice instead of getting a bridge dropped on him), or some sort of twist happens in the end. Heck, Oracle is specifically breaking the fourth wall when giving us the specs on how to count the timing, so the Doylist approach probably rules here. In any case, it's pretty clear that "Disintegrate + Gust of wind" is *not* going to happen here.
There are plenty of potential twists, such as Oracle not having all the information - he is a favored soul of Tiamat and gets the vision from that source. What if some other divine entity decides to intervene (Dark One, or even Thor&co)? And since there are ghosts in this universe, he might pull of an Obi-Wan Kenobi and continue alongside the party in spirit with some nice Ghost Touch weapons. My pet theory is relying on Projected vs. observed and that one of the overarching themes of the entire comic are the effects of choices in your life and how much they matter. Stereotypical "monsters" can be good guys if they make that choice. Vaarsuvius determined to become a better person after flirting with true evil and so on. So if a person makes some fundamental change, even divine projections (that Oracle receives) cannot keep up.
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2022-07-11, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
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- New Zealand
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
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2022-07-11, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Eh, I agree with almost all of that but I don't think prophecies cna be circumvented. Especially since as Tiamat is the source of the Oracle's powers and even she seemed surprised at Fsmilicide, the gods aren't omnjscient yet can still grant occasional soothsayings. It's say prophetic powers are subject to narrative rule, and thus are more powerful than even the gods.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-07-11, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2022
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- Misery (h/t XTC)
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
No, I was counting purely moments where it looked like maybe Belkar is going to breathe his last breath ever before the end of the year without actually shuffling off this mortal coil in a way that precludes him being part of the cast any longer. Those were all moments when it looked like Belkar might die or already have died, but that's just the no-loopholes reading of the prophecy.
Was that really under any question? Of course his death is going to be significant; he's a character we've been following as a core part of the cast since the comic started. He's fourth on the list of protagonist appearances. He's been getting major character arcs in every single book he appears in. He is a well-developed, well-liked, and well-characterized individual. When he falls down and doesn't get back up again it's going to be a major moment, a watershed for the comic, just like when the MitD is finally revealed. It's a huge deal, and it would have a huge impact even if his final death comes down to Redcloak saying "Disintegrate" and dusting him.
His death is going to be a major event and have a long-term impact no matter what.
There's just no real ambiguity about whether or not it will happen."But it always seemed weird to me to get mad about things going wrong, as if everything turning out OK was promised to anyone, ever. There wouldn't need to be paladins if the world was, like, fair." -Lien
I get to be a favorite today!
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2022-07-11, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
I concur, in part due to the Oracle being in a close relationship with Tiamat and thus very likely to be of (a) chaotic alignment.
I am not all up on 3.5 lore: if one is in the Astral plane does time stop mattering to a mortal PC? (In other words, he can't have any more birthdays since time will no longer pass for him?Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2022-07-11, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
If it did turn out there was outcome where Belkar didn't die, but still met all the oracles prophecies, wouldn't that also just be a possibility that is unlikely? 'Loophole' is just a label that has been assigned.
My point is that if the Giant has done an unpredictable twist involving the prophecy one character (and them dying no less), surely its possible that he'll also do a unpredictable twist involving the prophecy of another character. And if noone was able to pick the twist with the first character, the forums inability to predict a neat solution for the second doesn't mean there isn't one.
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2022-07-11, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Last edited by Peelee; 2022-07-11 at 08:02 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-07-11, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Here's the difference:
Durkon asked a simple question and got a simple answer.
Roy was informed multiple times and in multiple ways, even after asking about possible loopholes.
The specificity of Belkar's prophecy is far in excess of any other prophecy by The Oracle. It is almost as if he has a personal grudge against Belkar for some reason, and takes a perverse delight in the idea of Belkar's demise.
If there was a loophole, fake, disambiguation, or any sort of prevarication, The Oracle did a good job of covering it up. The rest of The Order received one prophecy. Even Belkar. Mostly, they were constrained from receiving a better answer by the exactness of their question.
"How will I return home?"
"Posthumously."
"Teleportation," would have worked as well.
Not, "What must I do to have my banishment revoked?"
"Get turned into a vampire, turn your friends at the Temple of Thor into vampires, sacrifice yourself by guilt-tripping the vampire spirit imprisoning you, then get raised by a dwarf with whom you had a one night stand about a year ago."
The question frames the possible answer. But there was no question to frame the answer to Belkar's riddle. The Oracle gave that one as a freebie. There are really no available loopholes because there was no question that had to be answered as exactly as it was asked.
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2022-07-11, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
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2022-07-11, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
In a bizarre tangent to this conversation, what if he really is the sexy shoeless god of war, and as such (a god) is more or less immortal but he, Belkar, in a case of an ironic lack of self awareness, is utterly unaware of that side effect? His lack of self awareness is ironic since he's the 'cut through the BS guy and tell the whole unpleasant truth' guy since way early in the OoTS strips.
Beyond his declaring himself that during the battle for Azure city, it was the key Truth - I am a sexy shoeless god of war - about Belkar's very nature, who he was and who he is, that led to getting the mark of justice removed after the dream quest sequence with Shojo.
Shojo keeps nagging him to say it: "You know the answer to this, say it!"
That would render the Oracle's prophecy somewhat skewed, would it not? The Oracle is setting up his prophecy for a mortal, but he's actually dealing with a deity, or a minor deity - the sexy shoeless god of war.
Yeah, it's an odd reach, but there you have it.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-07-11 at 10:21 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2022-07-11, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
Looking back, all of the prophecies have been straightforward and truthful. There was really no ambiguity in any of them. For Belkar's prophecy to be the only one that involves convoluted permutations that defy logic would be a breach of trust by the author.
Whatever the outcome, it will be seen to have been as exactly and correctly predicted as all the others. There will be no gotcha clause, such as, "He can breathe, but chooses not to." There will be no technicalities.
I'll bet 30 quatloos and an internet on that.
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2022-07-11, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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2022-07-11, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2020
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Re: When Belkar dies, what will become of his soul?
If Belkar is a sexy god of war, then I'm the queen of england.