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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Seriously, it works. Can depend a bit on the system and campaign, you don't want to try for a teens at school slice of life comedy with it. Nor anything it takes more than 5 or so minutes to gen a character significantly different from the last.
    That doesn't really answer my question. According to they link "Our regiment was mustered, our characters met and trained, and we were deployed to fight some orks", which would work as justification for why the party's together even without the added meatgrinder. I'm not saying this method is bad (though I don't think I would enjoy it myself), but I still don't see how it'd solve this particular problem.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    That doesn't really answer my question. According to they link "Our regiment was mustered, our characters met and trained, and we were deployed to fight some orks", which would work as justification for why the party's together even without the added meatgrinder. I'm not saying this method is bad (though I don't think I would enjoy it myself), but I still don't see how it'd solve this particular problem.
    Didn't read it all the way through? Well, its not some people's style so can't blame ya. They fought and died like noobs. Kept it up until they were good enough with the system and had reinvented enough tactics to hold against any number of orks. And they died. Then they got more orks and fell back through their own artillery barrage. Then it was renegade guardsmen in urban warfare. Then it was holding an evacuation point against tyrannids. Eventually only one or two shuttles made it out. Sort of. The Inquisition declared the company dead, redirected the shuttles, and got the offer to become jack-booted thug agents of the Inquisition or die. Its practically a perfect from the botton up intro to the 40k universe in general.

    Mechanically (I'm not deep in on the different 40k rpgs, so someone correct me if I'm way off) your character from the guardsman generally isn't up to the power level of the inquisition game, at least not without a honking big pile of xp under their belt. Even then, while they'll be complete bad asses in a fight & at their specialty, the characters are wildly unsuitable for the sneaking & investigation of an Inquisition mission. This isn't a zero to hero, knights in shining armor, or spy vs spy game. Its pure dark comedy. This is Black Adder 40k, its Paranoia without the insane computer AI, its a comedy set up.

    The players also (usually/hopefully) come out really good at combat, teamwork, & tactics. Many games, combat is the slowest & most fiddly thing in the system. Meat grinders csn quickly instill a lot of experience with the combat engine, as long as its not an hour of 1 turn every 6-8 minutes of your 1 of 8 characters whacking at pointless huge piles of hit points. I've watched, literally over a decade, one person go from "which dice do I roll for this?" to someone you can count on not to royally screw up. Its only the last 3-4 years that the rate of whole table face palms has drastically reduced and the solid team player has been emerging from the murder hobo chrysalis. A good meat grinder, with its bloody, direct, instant feedback of death & mutilation, can speed that process up to a couple marathon sessions instead of years of 3/month mostly weekly sessions.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    I'm sure it has its advantages, but the meatgrinder intro was initially presented (in part) as giving the party a reason to adventure together and I still haven't seen any reason why it'd help with that more than any other intro.

    To clarify, this method still needs a reason for the characters to get together ("you're guardsmen on assignment together", in this case) and that could be followed by any sort of intro adventure, not just the meatgrinder version.
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2022-06-07 at 05:32 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    The question is, if people show up with characters that don't have a backstory, do they even need an incentive to stay together? In my experience that kind of players leans toward "we'll adventure together because we're the players." That makes this mostly a non-issue. The players that are likely to require an incentive are those that have a backstory and draw their motivation from that backstory. And that kind of player is unlikely to appreciate a meatgrinder that kills off said character before their backstory ever becomes relevant.

    To me, at least, the meatgrinder seems designed to make sure your players are focused on optimizing more than roleplaying characters. Which is not my style but certainly works for groups that are into that.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaln View Post
    The question is, if people show up with characters that don't have a backstory, do they even need an incentive to stay together? In my experience that kind of players leans toward "we'll adventure together because we're the players."
    For a lot of people, that's enough. For some people, it isn't because they are looking for a deeper level of immersion into the character, and may assume that all of the other players do as well, which is only rarely true. (IME). The desired level of immersion into the character varies by player.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    For a lot of people, that's enough. For some people, it isn't because they are looking for a deeper level of immersion into the character, and may assume that all of the other players do as well, which is only rarely true. (IME). The desired level of immersion into the character varies by player.
    Depends on the game, I think. In a lot of games where people are just going on a set adventure path, your backstory is kinda irrelevant in the bigger picture. Sure, it can add to roleplay, but then having character development through play usually does just about as good of a job, in the long run.

    In other games, where the game is more about the characters, it may not work as well.

    I do think it's interesting that backstory can be both the cause and solution to some of these disruption issues - an improper backstory can create party cohesion issues that wouldn't exist with no backstory.

    I guess my biggest thing is that when it comes to things like backstory and whatnot, the primary goal shouldn't be "do it the way I would", but "do something that isn't disruptive". I may prefer some backstory, but if I'm playing an AP, it doesn't matter much. However, a backstory that pushes the character in a very specific direction (that may not align with the party) won't be helpful at all, and is probably worse than no backstory (in some games).
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    For a lot of people, that's enough. For some people, it isn't because they are looking for a deeper level of immersion into the character, and may assume that all of the other players do as well, which is only rarely true. (IME). The desired level of immersion into the character varies by player.
    But then we're back to Batcathat's point; that kind of player will want a reason why they are going into the meatgrinder in the first place.
    Also, this might just be me, but the meatgrinder as described by TemporalTravles would kill my immersion quickly; why do new characters show up suddenly whenever one of us dies? Where are they coming from? Why do we trust them? How do they know we need a replacement? And if they get sent by whoever sent us, why didn't we take them with us right from the start?
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaln View Post
    But then we're back to Batcathat's point; that kind of player will want a reason why they are going into the meatgrinder in the first place.
    Also, this might just be me, but the meatgrinder as described by TemporalTravles would kill my immersion quickly; why do new characters show up suddenly whenever one of us dies? Where are they coming from? Why do we trust them? How do they know we need a replacement? And if they get sent by whoever sent us, why didn't we take them with us right from the start?
    In this meat grinder setup, there are dozens and dozens of undefined people already on the battlefield (or in the dungeon, or the gladiator pits, or whatever) who are already your fellow adventurers/soldiers. You're not playing a character, you're playing a faceless pawn to see which one survives long enough to develop a personality. Bringing in a backstory is actively undesirable at this point since your pawn likely won't live long enough to call on it in any way.

    There's certainly nothing gained by doing this backstory-wise over "you're all survivors of the orcish massacre on planet Auxin, who now work for Inquisitor X".

    I guess it's fun for people who don't want backstories but like meatgrinders? It's fairly specific.
    Last edited by Reversefigure4; 2022-06-07 at 05:06 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reversefigure4 View Post
    There's certainly nothing gained by doing this backstory-wise over "you're all survivors of the orcish massacre on planet Auxin, who now work for Inquisitor X".
    I wouldn't consider a meatgrinder as a replacement for backstory. A few lines or inspiration for one maybe. I don't think meatgrinders are for backstory anyways, they have other functions like team building and portraying a crapsack world that I'd value more.

    But its more backstory than a lot of players show up at the table with, even in games that provide built in backstory seeds on the sheet or during char gen.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    The last meat grinder I remember being in… well, it kinda had the opposite effects, dumbing most of the players down, and leading to a “why the **** would I want to team up with these idiots ever again?” response. The other PCs weren’t just PTSD triggers, they were actively pursuing “murdering this character would be good for the planet” territory.

    I mean, I guess it kinda felt like backstory, in that it explained why “facepalm” was on hotkey, but it really not only didn’t generate a reason for the PCs to be together, but actively generated reasons for them to want to never see each other ever again.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    I like the DCC approach, where in the "funnel" you start with three characters. It helps ease the sting of death a bit.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    But its more backstory than a lot of players show up at the table with, even in games that provide built in backstory seeds on the sheet or during char gen.
    I guess, but not more than would be developed in the actual game anyway. At that point for the linked 40k game, the characters' backstory is really "What we did for the first seven sessions of the campaign (the meat grinder)". Is this really substantially different to a guy whose backstory is "I'm a fighter who was taught to fight with an axe. I showed up and a tavern and met Wizard Wally and Rogue Roger, then we went to a cave and fought goblins and got the mayor's prize horse back."? (The first three sessions of Ye Generic DnD game).
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reversefigure4 View Post
    I guess, but not more than would be developed in the actual game anyway. At that point for the linked 40k game, the characters' backstory is really "What we did for the first seven sessions of the campaign (the meat grinder)". Is this really substantially different to a guy whose backstory is "I'm a fighter who was taught to fight with an axe. I showed up and a tavern and met Wizard Wally and Rogue Roger, then we went to a cave and fought goblins and got the mayor's prize horse back."? (The first three sessions of Ye Generic DnD game).
    Yes, because the players have grown attached to each other due to a shared experience. And because player-character separation is a myth, that translates down into an actual attachment between the surviving characters involved.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Yes, because the players have grown attached to each other due to a shared experience. And because player-character separation is a myth, that translates down into an actual attachment between the surviving characters involved.
    Why would a meatgrinder start of campaign result in more attachment than any other campaign start ? The only difference is that more characters die and thus at the end of the meatgrinder everyone is even less familiar with and attached to the surviving ones.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Satinavian View Post
    Why would a meatgrinder start of campaign result in more attachment than any other campaign start ? The only difference is that more characters die and thus at the end of the meatgrinder everyone is even less familiar with and attached to the surviving ones.
    We seem to have really plunged down the rat hole of the meatgrinder example, and I am not sure if that direction is helpful in answering the OP's original query.
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    We seem to have really plunged down the rat hole of the meatgrinder example, and I am not sure if that direction is helpful in answering the OP's original query.
    Point. Created a new thread here, if anyone wants to continue this discussion.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    TBH I don't think the background of a character matters that much. I have a general idea what I want from my character. However I'm more than willing to adjust my background as we play if it fits the story better. Most DMs I play with like it if a player has a background for roleplaying purpose. But it is really never part of the main story. For my last character I used the song test of "The Curse of Millhaven" as my background.

    Also I think it is weird when lvl1 character have a long character history. We always start at level one.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    Also I think it is weird when lvl1 character have a long character history. We always start at level one.
    I don't. If an elf shows up at age 76, or a dwarf shows up at age 60, they've been doing stuff for most of a human life span. Heck, twenty to twenty five years is a pretty long time: quite a bit can happen in that amount of time.

    And the 'long character history' is not a requirement for a back story. Summarizing what the character has become at this point (level 1, entry into adventuring as a career) can take from a few sentences to a few pages. The key is to end up with "Why am I here doing this now? I was {there} and now I am {here} about to do {something}."

    One can do what Traveller (original) did and make the character background / backstory mechanically relevant, but that depends on the game system.

    FWIW, a nice post about funnel/meatgrinder can be found here.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-06-09 at 10:31 AM.
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    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I don't. If an elf shows up at age 76, or a dwarf shows up at age 60, they've been doing stuff for most of a human life span. Heck, twenty to twenty five years is a pretty long time: quite a bit can happen in that amount of time.

    And the 'long character history' is not a requirement for a back story. Summarizing what the character has become at this point (level 1, entry into adventuring as a career) can take from a few sentences to a few pages. The key is to end up with "Why am I here doing this now? I was {there} and now I am {here} about to do {something}."

    One can do what Traveller (original) did and make the character background / backstory mechanically relevant, but that depends on the game system.

    FWIW, a nice post about funnel/meatgrinder can be found here.
    To me adventuring is a result and not a goal. Being an adventurer is not a profession. Going on an "adventure" is because **** needs to be taken care of. One of the parties I play in now is setting up a roof tile business. But to prevent that our transports get robbed all of the time we decided to take care of the local bandit issue. Before that we were sent out to do chores for the Legion (an organization that takes care of delinquents, a kind of foreign legion). Once we paid our debt to society we were on our own, a roof tile business seemed like a good idea. So then we had to raise money, and get permits to start a business (guild). So that meant do more jobs for the locals powers. etcetera etcetera.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    Once we paid our debt to society we were on our own, a roof tile business seemed like a good idea. So then we had to raise money, and get permits to start a business (guild). So that meant do more jobs for the locals powers. etcetera etcetera.
    Sounds like a great table if all of the players have bought into this premise. The "Accidental Adventurer" is my preferred approach but I have found that 25+ years of action RPGs (and games like WoW) as a common background for many players that "adventuring as a thing in itself" underwrites no small amount of table expectations.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-06-14 at 07:42 AM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    I actually prefer to write my own backstory, as I almost always do number crunching and backstory at the same time. I start out working on the numbers and as I'm doing that, that gets me thinking on why these numbers are what they are and then I start on the backstory and depending on where I go there I come back and change the numbers.

    I'm not always writing a long backstory, but a few paragraphs I almost always put down. Of course, I've played a lot of freeform PBeM over the years, where backstory is the only thing you have, so that might also influence my way of working.

    And I've once done a game where we did the opposite. The players came with a backstory and created a level 1 character out of that (that way I could also all give them a couple of freebies). This was Alternity, where character creation can be a bit tricky (and long). Then the players could upgrade to lvl3 and add advantages and disadvantages to the character, so they also had some input and could steer in a certain way if they wanted. Of course, this was with a group I've been playing with for over 15 years now, so we know each other pretty well.
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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Character backstory - Better Source DM or player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    I'm sure it has its advantages, but the meatgrinder intro was initially presented (in part) as giving the party a reason to adventure together and I still haven't seen any reason why it'd help with that more than any other intro.
    He didn't say that it would help "more than any other intro". The paragraph in which he mentioned the idea started by saying another idea works too. His only statement about the meatgrinder was, "A DM making a whole bunch of characters, then throwing them into a meatgrinder of a battle so that the survivors can become the true PCs can work for some games - there is at least one fairly legendary W40k TTRPG campaign that started this way." [Emphasis added.]

    He didn't say it worked better than any other intro.
    He included another intro that can work well.
    He only claimed that the meatgrinder "can work for some games".

    You've turned his simple true statement into a much stronger statement he didn't make, and are triumphantly declaring that the statement he didn't make is not true.

    [He also dropped out of this discussion 13 days ago.]
    Last edited by Jay R; 2022-06-14 at 01:05 PM.

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