OOTS #1259 - The Discussion Thread

[dancrilis]

Haley sent Elan to get her bow - that seperates him from the group and leaves him to his own devices with Sunny while they are close to the entrance of the dungeon where Xykon is hanging around and where they think they are safe to spy on him (and if Sunny doesn't keep his eye closed after getting them out of the room that that protection might not last), the more I think about it the more ways sending Elan and Sunny away could go wrong occur to me.

Likely not going to happen but could be a curious turn.

[Mic_128]

Haley sent Elan to get her bow - that seperates him from the group and leaves him to his own devices with Sunny while they are close to the entrance of the dungeon where Xykon is hanging around

Haley didn't lose her bow near the entrance, but in the cylindrical trap room a hallway away. I doubt they're gonna go out there. If anything the meeting will end and we'll turn and see them playing together, probably with Sunny having Banjo on an eye-stalk.

[Wraithfighter]

Haley sent Elan to get her bow - that seperates him from the group and leaves him to his own devices with Sunny while they are close to the entrance of the dungeon where Xykon is hanging around and where they think they are safe to spy on him (and if Sunny doesn't keep his eye closed after getting them out of the room that that protection might not last), the more I think about it the more ways sending Elan and Sunny away could go wrong occur to me.

Likely not going to happen but could be a curious turn.

I doubt it. Things have been very combat and conflict heavy for a while, and there's a lot of stuff to get into, between Team Evil, the IFCC, the heroes comparing notes on potentially dramatic things, and maybe some other stuff that we aren't thinking of. That just feels like a throw-away line to explain why Haley will have her bow in the next fight scene.

My guess? Next bit will be them talking about what O-chul knows about the Monster in the Darkness, followed by MITD showing up to find out what's going on with Team Evil's investigation into the weirdness with the doors...

[dancrilis]

Haley didn't lose her bow near the entrance, but in the cylindrical trap room a hallway away. I doubt they're gonna go out there. If anything the meeting will end and we'll turn and see them playing together, probably with Sunny having Banjo on an eye-stalk.

I am pretty sure that Elan didn't run that far other then out of the tunnel and into the cave - I get the impression (could be wrong) it was less far then from the cave to the living area.

[Ionathus]

It's a part of why I detested Elan, the character, from about strips 1 through 10 to the present day.
I know that Rich uses him for comic relief, and sometimes to great effect, but as a character he's not just an example of bad TV sitcom writing ... I'll stop there.

I see what you're saying but I do feel he's matured significantly, to the point where his ditziness is only occasionally blatant and even less occasionally annoying. Like I said, he's come a long way and has really come into his own in a lot of areas. The exaggerated "Elan is childlike" jokes can be hit or miss, but his role on the team does very much improve my reading experience.

After watching this, I am surprised. Do people actually do the button thing? I have never heard of such thing before. Does that actually work? Why do people do that? Is it something specific to a country?

So many questions about such an irrelevant point but I would really love to get some answers.

I never got the button thing as a kid. I was given an entire rack of out-of-date spices once though, to keep me busy while my parents helped somebody move. They were those old orange Durkee tins -- I still can't think of anything else when I smell clove.

[pendell]

Never invite to a meeting someone who doesn't want to be there and whose input / disruption will not be needed.

Good heavens YES. I would go further: never create a meeting that could be an email. I've been working in Agile Scrum for several years. It's a good methodology, done right, but all too often it devolves into Meeting after meeting after meeting . Pre-refinement. Refinement. Tech refinement (which is a different kind of refinement). Sprint planning. Sprint retrospective. Release planning. And because it's a two week cadence we go through the entire set of meetings every two weeks. In the article I just linked, meetings are supposed to take up 23% of sprint. In my perspective, it's closer to 30% but that's just the time spent in meeting . It doesn't account for context switching which can cost 23 minutes for distraction. I'd say in an 8 hour day I accomplish about 4 hours of useful work. Which is why I frequently stay late.

I hate meetings. I wish I could avoid attending more of them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[kierthos]

I know that when it comes to the story vs rules/mechanics segregation, Mr. Burlew prefers to "err" in the side of the story.

That being said......

If Sunny is included in the attack on Team Evil, I think the only eye that would be of real use
would be the Anti-magic central eye. From a rules standpoint, the DCs on a Beholder's other eyes are
just too low to affect a high level cleric or lich most of the time. (Yes, Durkon got turned to stone, but
he's not as high level as Redcloak, who possibly gets bonuses to saves via the Redcloak, and well, anyone
can roll a 1.)

But Anti-magic field doesn't grant a check to ignore the effects. If you're in the cone, you can't cast spells,
and any magic items become normal items while they're in there. And, as it has already been pointed out,
a Lich in an Anti-magic field is a intelligent skeleton with a couple special abilities. (Redcloak at least has some
martial skill as a cleric.)

The problem is keeping them in the Anti-magic cone. The reason that it worked so well against the Order of
the Stick is that they had nowhere else in the cylindrical room to go.

In an open-ish chasm? Well, the Order would probably get a surprise round, assuming that Xykon didn't hear
them coming (+8 bonus to Listen checks).

But why fight Xykon right now at all?

Redcloak, the MitD, Oona, and Greyview are still inside one of the dungeons. If the Order hustles with their plan,
they could utilize the switchovers to isolate them, and in that tunnel, Sunny's Anti-magic cone would be
far more effective.

Subdue them (because killing Oona isn't likely to help with getting Redcloak to listen), and with that part of
Team Evil on ice (at the very least), then Xykon doesn't necessarily have any back-up. And since, presumably,
Xykon doesn't know about the phylactery switcheroo that Redcloak pulled, narratively, he's not invested in
"I must win this, or else I will be destroyed forever".

Also, I really do want Redcloak to still be around when Xykon is defeated, he "coalesces" in the phylactery,
only to realize "Hey, this isn't in my tomb-fortress on the Astral Plane."

[Ionathus]

I think one problem that's been stated is that, if Xykon's in the AMF cone, there's not a whole lot that can be done to hurt him. Liches have a bunch of immunities that don't "turn off" like magic items or spells do, so he'd be functionally immune to things like Roy's sword. I'm not sure if they have anything that can hurt him that's not magical.

This is all speculation: I don't know the details of how liches and AMFs interact.

[The MunchKING]

I think one problem that's been stated is that, if Xykon's in the AMF cone, there's not a whole lot that can be done to hurt him. Liches have a bunch of immunities that don't "turn off" like magic items or spells do, so he'd be functionally immune to things like Roy's sword

Actually, not true.


A lich's damage resistance is Su. So in a AMF it will basically be just a big old stack of bones to be easily smashed.

[dancrilis]

I think one problem that's been stated is that, if Xykon's in the AMF cone, there's not a whole lot that can be done to hurt him. Liches have a bunch of immunities that don't "turn off" like magic items or spells do, so he'd be functionally immune to things like Roy's sword. I'm not sure if they have anything that can hurt him that's not magical.

This is all speculation: I don't know the details of how liches and AMFs interact.

Assuming standard then it may turn off his Fear Aura, Paralyzing Touch and potentially most importantly Damage Reduction - however it might not turn off his normal spellcasting (this is open to interpretation) and if it doesn't it would mean attacking him while he is in one is likely suicide and they really have no way of testing if it would work on him or not (unless Serini has some antimagic setup in the dungeons and has monitored if they work on him).
Even if it does turn off his normal spellcasting it would not turn off any spells which are designed to work in an antimagic field, and Epic spells which are not designed to specifically bypass an antimagic field might still work (at worst Xykon would have a 50% chance of being able to cast one) - and for a high level caster developing some of them might be reasonable.

Unless Serini has been doing some trail and error on if the tactic is viable I think it would be incredibly risky.

[kierthos]

I think one problem that's been stated is that, if Xykon's in the AMF cone, there's not a whole lot that can be done to hurt him. Liches have a bunch of immunities that don't "turn off" like magic items or spells do, so he'd be functionally immune to things like Roy's sword. I'm not sure if they have anything that can hurt him that's not magical.

This is all speculation: I don't know the details of how liches and AMFs interact.

Right, so.... It depends.

In 3.5 D&D, liches have 15/Bludgeoning and Magic damage resistance. (Meaning that unless the weapon
is both bludgeoning and magic, subtract 15 points of damage from any weapon attack.)

They're also immune to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting spells.

IF those turn off in an anti-magic field, then the Order can go to town on him with their
weapons. If they don't, then.... yes, Xykon won't be able to do much to the Order, and vice-versa.

Although I suppose since Roy has already punched Xykon's head off of his spine (way back in strip #114),
Roy could just run into the Anti-magic field and rip Xykon's arms off. Leave the arms in the anti-magic field,
drop kick the rest of him out, and beat on him then. (There's not a whole lot of spells that don't have
Somatic components, although there are still some dangerous ones.)

[danielxcutter]

His DR turns off. The rest of the resistances don’t.

That being said unless he does have an epic blasting spell or something, there’s about one non-epic spell in the entire edition that works, and I don’t think he has the spells known for there to be room for it.

[Peelee]

His DR turns off. The rest of the resistances don’t.

His other resistances wouldn't really matter since in an AMF he wouldn't have lightning slung at him anyway, for example.

[Ionathus]

His other resistances wouldn't really matter since in an AMF he wouldn't have lightning slung at him anyway, for example.

Hear me out...we build a lightning rod harpoon, designed to look like a tree...

[Seward]

Don't ask me, my grandma didn't need a jar of buttons to keep me occupied. She had books.

Yeah. I spent one summer reading Perry Mason when nothing else was going on with my Paternal grandma. She had the entire series.

My other grandmother had a piano in the basement (long story) that we'd bang on, and my uncle came late and was only a decade older, so a lot of his stuff was in the basement - games, even a model railroad although that was a "with supervision" thing. She had books too but she lived in the same city with us, so visits were more an "afternoon thing" not "read a book series when not outside" thing.

Right, so.... It depends.

In 3.5 D&D, liches have 15/Bludgeoning and Magic damage resistance. (Meaning that unless the weapon
is both bludgeoning and magic, subtract 15 points of damage from any weapon attack.)

While Belkar and Haley can't do much, Roy is a 15th level fighter with power attack, decent strength even without his belt and a greatsword. 15 DR won't stop him from tearing giant chunks out of the big X with no spells to protect him. Everybody else who is useless can just pile on to prevent Xykon from leaving the AMF.

DMG Eratta says that DR/Bludgeon is EX but DR/Magic is SU, so Minra and Durkon can also join Roy to do asskicking. All that assumes Xykon has no friends around. MITD getting involved would be very bad based how hard his "lightest hit" affected Miko and her horse. Even without that, the new bugbear and her animals could do bad things to a very squishy nonmagical elf who would be at the center of that antimagic field. Antimagic field isn't 100% against epic spells either, so Xykon might be able to do something awful anyway. Might be best if Roy grapples him while the two Thor clerics do the beatdown, and everybody else tries to keep V alive vs minion counterattacks.

[Kantaki]

[looks at location tag]

Donald Duck, I'm guessing?

Wrong part of Germany.
Well, technically. I'm young enough to have grown up with them, but not something my grandparents had lying around.

Nah, fairy tales and folk tales/myths. Stuff like that.
Old Science Fiction stories too.
I think there were some Agatha Christie novels?

[Windscion]

Antimagic field isn't 100% against epic spells either.

This. Anyone recall what his epic spells are? I can only recall cloister, which has no combat use.

[dancrilis]

This. Anyone recall what his epic spells are? I can only recall cloister, which has no combat use.

Superb Dispelling and possibly Epic Mage Armour, I wouldn't rule out others also.

[VanFanel]

I rarely comment here, but the button jar triggered the "Proustian madeleine" effect and dragged me to the forum!

I don't know if it's specific to a country (I'm American), but I can testify that a jar of assorted buttons can keep a kid of a certain age occupied for a good long time. With me, it wasn't so much sorting them as just fascination with how many different kinds there were.

I too don't know it's something country-specific, but to add my testimony to the pool, I'm Italian and I was a child in the 80s. I remember spending time playing with grandma's buttons, but I don't remember if she used to ask us kids to sort them ... I suspect it wasn't necessary ;)
I agree with The Shadow, and in fact, I'd like to add "by material, shape, thickness, etc" to the strip title. I was amazed by those velvet buttons, nacre buttons, and many more strange buttons I sadly can't remember.
(Curiously, my kids never played with buttons, but probably today we have more safety concerns... Anyway, my son often pulls out and "reviews/sorts" his soccer trading cards or Euro coins, and he is now far, far beyond the "button age"...)

[Arkain]

I'm afraid that's what your Nana was doing, Minrah

[Reboot]

Even without that, the new bugbear and her animals could do bad things to a very squishy nonmagical elf who would be at the center of that antimagic field.

Uh, why would V be anywhere near SUNNY's AMF?

[Seward]

Uh, why would V be anywhere near SUNNY's AMF?

Sorry. I was imagining the usual situation with wizards casting antimagic field. Forgot they had a friendly beholder for a minute. Although honestly, Sunny isn't the most reliable source of AMF in the world, so you'd want to be quick about your Xykon smashing.

[Ezekiel]

I remember the buttons (80s) but what I remember most was my grandma saying "You're bored? Go pull weeds in the garden!"

[Edward15]

First time I’ve laughed at one of these forum comments in a while!

Thank you.

This is why we can't have nice things.

What do you mean by that? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?

[KorvinStarmast]

I hate meetings. I wish I could avoid attending more of them.

Some years ago a talented comedian named John Cleese (Yeah, the Python guy) made some teaching films (Meetings Bloody Meetings, and IIRC "More Bloody Meetings") that ought to be required for anyone in charge of anything. Still relevant, but I'd love to see him do one on "Bloody Zoom Meetings" or something like that.

What do you mean by that? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?

It's a joke based on an old saying. I currently haven't got it in me to dissect that frog.

[DaOldeWolf]

First, I wanted to thank everyone that answered about the button thingie. I really appreciate the feedback, anecdotes and data. Its always great to learn new things. For the sake of keeping this post from being too big, I will remove the text from the quotes.

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Cool! But I am surprised that this is really a thing that happens. Thanks for sharing your experience. I am also even more amazed by the fact that it worked.

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Wow! That so many. Were you also put to organize them?

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Yeah. I suppose. Since I was the young weird kid that stays put, I didnt usually receive stuff to distract myself. I usually stayed in place without issue. (many of my family members always used to say they wanted a child like me.)

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Well, in my home we all did chores but I am not sure if they are the same thing as small distractions. Still, its pretty interesting to hear about all this.

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I love those. All sorts of games are great for children. Chess, checkers, stairs and snakes, etc. I suppose some kind of task involving concentration is not only a good distraction but an ecellent way to help children develop mental skills.

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Spices? As in the cooking variety? Woah, that sounds absolutely amazing. Such a cool experience, let me tell you.

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So, it definitely isnt a cultural thing? Fascinating. I suppose parents learn all sorts of tricks from their families. And sometime from others´experiences. Collectibles? Yeah, that is certainly a good option for organization.

I remember the buttons (80s) but what I remember most was my grandma saying "You're bored? Go pull weeds in the garden!"

That story really made me laugh. Go pull weeds.

[TheNecrocomicon]

My only real thought upon reading this strip is "this is going way too smoothly right now, undoubtedly there's some sort of stuff hitting the fan right around the corner".

From a drama perspective, it seems to be completely forbidden to have a situation where the protagonists (i.e. the Order plus allies) have any sort of concrete advantage that is anything other than momentary and fleeting. Things just get bad and then worse in mounting fashion until the resolution. Therefore, it seems virtually impossible to me that whatever plan they concoct is ever going to be executed. They might not even get through the meeting before something upends the whole proverbial table.

[danielxcutter]

I think there should be at least enough time for Serini to tell them about the details of the Scribblers breaking up before that.

[AstralFire]

I've had this back-and-forth feeling about Haley & Elan's dynamic before: it's fun to have a fictional relationship where the guy is the complete ditz but still romantic, empathetic, and competent (in his own ways). However, some of the jokes of Haley managing Elan's behavior do read as very maternal, especially that exchange when he'd been lured away by Sunny which verged on feeling almost icky for me. I think their dynamic is at its strongest in scenes like bartering in Sandsedge, where they're both acting like adults but Elan simply has much lower savvy.

I love Elan and I love Haley, they're two of my favorite characters, yet I can never really get behind the relationship. I know it's exaggerated for humor purposes but... like, what does Haley get from the dynamic? Elan is the sweetest person in the world but I've never seen a romantic relationship that could be powered by sweetness alone. He's not really amusing to her as i recall, she doesn't find him hilarious. He can't provide meaningful emotional support beyond like... hugs. He can't be depended on to do most tasks. And Haley isn't the controlling type as far as we've seen otherwise that gets fulfillment in being in charge of people; to the contrary, she hates it and only has stepped up as necessary.

All of our characters have matured over time, but Elan... even after Tarquin, he's not child-like, and able to put that away as necessary; he's basically just a child, one with moments of insight. His arc would be entirely appropriate for a child in a story and i wouldn't blink if you snapped your fingers and made him a kid and Haley his guardian; I don't think it would meaningfully change the story overall. Her speech impediment is the only individual story point that would have to change, but in light of their general chemistry, i already feel like that is out of place.

[Fyraltari]

I love Elan and I love Haley, they're two of my favorite characters, yet I can never really get behind the relationship. I know it's exaggerated for humor purposes but... like, what does Haley get from the dynamic?

Elan is someone she can be completely honest with. She's been hiding from everyone in her life, but with him she feels confortable being her authentic self. Also, his trusting and hopeful nature helps her rein in the cynicism her father ingrained in her.