OOTS #1259 - The Discussion Thread

[AstralFire]

Elan is someone she can be completely honest with. She's been hiding from everyone in her life, but with him she feels confortable being her authentic self. Also, his trusting and hopeful nature helps her rein in the cynicism her father ingrained in her.

Those are fine things, but I believe this only underlines the point that sweetness – goodness – is all he really brings to the relationship as a person. What do their days together look like? What is a date between them like?

I have seen goodness alone be the foundation of romantic relationships in real life between individuals with much less maturity and intellectual deficit between them. It has never ended well unless one partner changed in a way to alter the chemistry between them, in my recollection.

Please understand that I'm not trying to sell the value of being kind and considerate and optimistic short. These are most of the things that endear Elan to me as well. But a long-term monamorous relationship typically demands many points of compatibility to last, certainly many more than a one-sided affection for a character in a narrative.

Again, I do know this is exaggerated for comedic effect. But i wish we got to see them acting more like equals or Haley actually enjoying elements of his personality beyond "he is a good person" on a more regular basis.

[Fyraltari]

Those are fine things, but I believe this only underlines the point that sweetness – goodness – is all he really brings to the relationship as a person. What do their days together look like? What is a date between them like?

They both like board games?

[Liquor Box]

I love Elan and I love Haley, they're two of my favorite characters, yet I can never really get behind the relationship. I know it's exaggerated for humor purposes but... like, what does Haley get from the dynamic?

The comic has given a pretty clear indication of what she sees in him - that he's hot. She went all grabby hands on him early for that reason. She 'gets' having a sweet piece of eye candy on her arm as she adventures around.

I get that you are probably looking for something deeper, but if you can't think of anything, then hotness is probably it. Lots of relationships are founded on it - often with gender roles reversed, but not always.

[Vikenlugaid]

The comic has given a pretty clear indication of what she sees in him - that he's hot. She went all grabby hands on him early for that reason. She 'gets' having a sweet piece of eye candy on her arm as she adventures around.

I get that you are probably looking for something deeper, but if you can't think of anything, then hotness is probably it. Lots of relationships are founded on it - often with gender roles reversed, but not always.

Elan is hot, is a good man (the most good in the comic maybe), is brave, is smarter than he often looks.

And anyway love is not rational.

[Fyraltari]

Elan is [...] a good man (the most good in the comic maybe)

I disagree on the grounds that O-Chul is in the comic.

[Vikenlugaid]

I disagree on the grounds that O-Chul is in the comic.

Well I did say "maybe".

[AstralFire]

The comic has given a pretty clear indication of what she sees in him - that he's hot. She went all grabby hands on him early for that reason. She 'gets' having a sweet piece of eye candy on her arm as she adventures around.

I get that you are probably looking for something deeper, but if you can't think of anything, then hotness is probably it. Lots of relationships are founded on it - often with gender roles reversed, but not always.

Not the sense of "founded" i meant. Hotness is a perfectly reasonable start, but we don't see her constantly objectifying him anymore (maybe, comic time vs real life time may be a factor here – i haven't had time to do a big reread in years) and i feel like the takeaway was supposed to be that the relationship has emotionally shifted. It just feels like it shifted chiefly into being mom and child rather than likely to marry.

[TheNecrocomicon]

They both like board games?

"'And as I recall, I think, we both kinda liked it'
And I said, 'Well, that's one thing we've got'"

[Ionathus]

My only real thought upon reading this strip is "this is going way too smoothly right now, undoubtedly there's some sort of stuff hitting the fan right around the corner".

From a drama perspective, it seems to be completely forbidden to have a situation where the protagonists (i.e. the Order plus allies) have any sort of concrete advantage that is anything other than momentary and fleeting. Things just get bad and then worse in mounting fashion until the resolution. Therefore, it seems virtually impossible to me that whatever plan they concoct is ever going to be executed. They might not even get through the meeting before something upends the whole proverbial table.

Hmm, I don't feel like we're going to have anything terrible happen in the next few strips at least. We just had a long battle that drained our heroes (with somebody who should have been their ally from the start!), it would feel frustrating to have another big setback so soon in the book. Too many in a row and it starts to feel like the escape from Girard's Pyramid (Team Evil, then the devils, then Tarquin's army, then Tarquin himself, then Tarquin on airship). That's good for book finales, but not so much when you're just setting things up. I expect some very talky bits to come next.

Those are fine things, but I believe this only underlines the point that sweetness – goodness – is all he really brings to the relationship as a person. What do their days together look like? What is a date between them like?

Again, I do know this is exaggerated for comedic effect. But i wish we got to see them acting more like equals or Haley actually enjoying elements of his personality beyond "he is a good person" on a more regular basis.

I think this strip is a good example of other ways Elan can impress Haley. He really is a skilled and savvy people person when he needs to be! His trick with Sunny also impressed her.

I still see it as "solid relationship, with some iffy jokes." But I can see how you feel the reverse - the exaggeration is pretty significant, especially as the tone of the rest of the comic has matured around it.

[AstralFire]

I think this strip is a good example of other ways Elan can impress Haley. He really is a skilled and savvy people person when he needs to be! His trick with Sunny also impressed her.

I still see it as "solid relationship, with some iffy jokes." But I can see how you feel the reverse - the exaggeration is pretty significant, especially as the tone of the rest of the comic has matured around it.

Yeah that was a great scene on the Mechane[sp?]. Thanks for reminding me of it.

But most I appreciate the POV validation. I can see why other people read it a bit more natural than i do but it's nice to know I'm not in left field here.

[KorvinStarmast]

Elan is hot, is a good man (the most good in the comic maybe), is brave

Yes. And one other thing: he comes off as honest (even naively so). That makes him quite different from pretty much everyone Haley grew up with.

And anyway love is not rational.

Also true.

I appreciate the position AstralFire presents.

I think Rich was trying to do a little of the 'reverse bimbo' appeal at first, sort of a trope inversion, and then as his writing style went from gag strips to "I'm telling a story" he has tried to make it more than that.

A couple of other thoughts:
Haley was shown to be very possessive of Elan during the forest / bandits bit even though they weren't even dating at that point.

Elan's attractiveness to ladies, in general, is affirmed by the Sorceress in that bandit arc, and at least by one lady in Azure City who invited him up to her room (New Years Eve?)...but of course Miko was immune to the influence of his good looks.

[CountDVB]

The sheer amount of people overanalyzing the joke of Elan and Haley makes me wonder if ya'll have forgotten what Thor said about this world being "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody."

Like, I wonder how many laughs Mr. Burlew gets out of us overanalyzing every innocuous little thing so much that even paranoid adventurers overexposed to mimics think we're being silly.

I think it is more Elan felt like he was not sure on if he could contribute anything meaningful and sparing some sense awkwardness here. He's flighty and impulsive sure, but he's been able to contribute alot to help out. While yes he and Sunny are out and not involved in there, I do reckon something may happen.

For all we know, they could run into the Monster in the Darkness uncloaked or one of his kind and we wouldn't realize it until later.

[Ionathus]

The sheer amount of people overanalyzing the joke of Elan and Haley makes me wonder if ya'll have forgotten what Thor said about this world being "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody."

Like, I wonder how many laughs Mr. Burlew gets out of us overanalyzing every innocuous little thing so much that even paranoid adventurers overexposed to mimics think we're being silly.

I think it is more Elan felt like he was not sure on if he could contribute anything meaningful and sparing some sense awkwardness here. He's flighty and impulsive sure, but he's been able to contribute alot to help out. While yes he and Sunny are out and not involved in there, I do reckon something may happen.

For all we know, they could run into the Monster in the Darkness uncloaked or one of his kind and we wouldn't realize it until later.

On the surface level, sure, it was a joke and I took it as such. On its own it means barely anything.

But there are other jokes like this in the comic, and the fact that there's a pattern establishing "Elan is so comically immature that his girlfriend manages his behavior in a pseudo-mothering way" is worth talking about, for both in-comic and real-world cultural reasons.

Think about the Bechdel Test₁: absolutely meaningless for judging a single movie, but if it keeps happening then there might be a discussion worth having.

1. Yes, I'm aware the Bechdel Test was both A) not designed as an actual test and B) originated as a punchline in a comic strip. It is not an in-depth analysis tool, it's just someone pointing something out. Which is my original point: "pointing something out" is not the same as "overanalyzing," which is funny because the Bechdel Test also gets discredited for "reading too much into it" despite making a solid observation.

[arimareiji]

On the surface level, sure, it was a joke and I took it as such. On its own it means barely anything.

But there are other jokes like this in the comic, and the fact that there's a pattern establishing "Elan is so comically immature that his girlfriend manages his behavior in a pseudo-mothering way" is worth talking about, for both in-comic and real-world cultural reasons.

Think about the Bechdel Test₁: absolutely meaningless for judging a single movie, but if it keeps happening then there might be a discussion worth having.

1. Yes, I'm aware the Bechdel Test was both A) not designed as an actual test and B) originated as a punchline in a comic strip. It is not an in-depth analysis tool, it's just someone pointing something out. Which is my original point: "pointing something out" is not the same as "overanalyzing," which is funny because the Bechdel Test also gets discredited for "reading too much into it" despite making a solid observation.

Thank you for being the spur I needed to finally look up the Bechdel Test I've recently heard people refer to a few times. Possibly amusingly, I heard the reason you pre-emptively (and aptly) defended the reference before I even knew what it was. (I.e. people dismissing any mention of the point it raises with "Ha ha it's not an actual test".)

My weird take: Elan and Haley are what they are. Personally I find any relationship where one lover pseudo-parents the other and appears to view them as little more than "makes me feel good to be around them" and "great sex toy" to be a very-uncomfortable turnoff, regardless of whether it's the traditional stereotype or an inversion. But some people don't perceive any harm in it, and probably won't unless their perceptions change from the inside, and so be it.

(I went through way too many phases that now squick me out to remember, to judge anyone else's tastes. We all develop our characters and the plot threads of our lives at our own pace.)

[CountDVB]

On the surface level, sure, it was a joke and I took it as such. On its own it means barely anything.

But there are other jokes like this in the comic, and the fact that there's a pattern establishing "Elan is so comically immature that his girlfriend manages his behavior in a pseudo-mothering way" is worth talking about, for both in-comic and real-world cultural reasons.

Think about the Bechdel Test₁: absolutely meaningless for judging a single movie, but if it keeps happening then there might be a discussion worth having.

1. Yes, I'm aware the Bechdel Test was both A) not designed as an actual test and B) originated as a punchline in a comic strip. It is not an in-depth analysis tool, it's just someone pointing something out. Which is my original point: "pointing something out" is not the same as "overanalyzing," which is funny because the Bechdel Test also gets discredited for "reading too much into it" despite making a solid observation.

Except that it also depends on what the series. If it's a parody like this and the story does have a large reputation of not taking itself that seriously, then maybe that is something to keep in mind. We can find patterns sure, but those patterns have to be analyzed in the greater whole and context.

It's like trying to apply realism to a Looney Tunes cartoon. Sure we can do so all we like and get something, but it is still a Looney Tunes cartoon, which was created under a fundemental set of rules and with expectations all from it.

[CountDVB]

Thank you for being the spur I needed to finally look up the Bechdel Test I've recently heard people refer to a few times. Possibly amusingly, I heard the reason you pre-emptively (and aptly) defended the reference before I even knew what it was. (I.e. people dismissing any mention of the point it raises with "Ha ha it's not an actual test".)

My weird take: Elan and Haley are what they are. Personally I find any relationship where one lover pseudo-parents the other and appears to view them as little more than "makes me feel good to be around them" and "great sex toy" to be a very-uncomfortable turnoff, regardless of whether it's the traditional stereotype or an inversion. But some people don't perceive any harm in it, and probably won't unless their perceptions change from the inside, and so be it.

(I went through way too many phases that now squick me out to remember, to judge anyone else's tastes. We all develop our characters and the plot threads of our lives at our own pace.)

I think it's more people are reading too much into it and applying their own views, and expectations on it while forgetting the axioms of the comic.

Elan may be silly, but he has matured and grown alot in the past... what like year or so? While I do recall Mr. Burlew's perspective on applicability and fiction, but I don't think it would apply entirely ehre since it's clearly for the sake of humor.

These characters are still themselves in a story where comedy is a prominent pillar, especially comedy that is parodical.

[Fyraltari]

Except that it also depends on what the series. If it's a parody like this and the story does have a large reputation of not taking itself that seriously, then maybe that is something to keep in mind. We can find patterns sure, but those patterns have to be analyzed in the greater whole and context.

Yes, it's a parody of D&D, I didn't know that "men are children who need their partner's supervision to behave" was an element of D&D.

We are all aware that Elan's childishness is a joke, that's not the issue people are raising. The issue is thay this particular joke coforms to a particular stereotype/gender role repartition where the "wife" is more emotionnally mature than the "husband" and acts as a substitute "mother", taking responsability for his behaviour rather than an equal partner. This is, of course, insulting to everybody involved, men becaude they are presented as / incited to act as emotionnally stunted adult children and womene because they are presented as / incited to act as secondary to their male partners

Spoiler: This is a comedy too, would you say there's nothing wrong with it?

Show

Obviously, we all know this isn't what The Giant us trying to portray with this relationship and 95% of the time it isn't what he portrays. But in this specific instance, several of us think the joke veeree into this territory. I can't talk for anybody else, but to me, it's specifically the "no roughhousing!" line that makes it cross the line and I think the joke would have been better without it.
I'm not ceiticizing the joke in itself but it's execution, because it unwittingly ends up playing into a harmful stereotype.

[BaronOfHell]

My take on it is that in oots low intelligence is usually displayed as child like behavior (Elan, Thog, MitD, Therkla's mom), but the intelligence stat isn't an indicator of how well one does in a romantic relationship.

[Larsaan]

Except that it also depends on what the series. If it's a parody like this and the story does have a large reputation of not taking itself that seriously, then maybe that is something to keep in mind. We can find patterns sure, but those patterns have to be analyzed in the greater whole and context.

It's worth pointing out, though (and this is something that sprang to mind during that big argument in the previous thread), that this comic is a very different story now than it was ten years ago. It started as a wacky slappy parody, sure, but these days it's aiming to be something more straight-faced... to the point where we even had a page not too long ago that was specifically about the main characters criticizing their own behaviour at the start of the comic. There are jokes from those early days that I found funny then, and that I still find funny on a re-read, but would seem jarringly out of place in the context of the comic's current atmosphere and sensibilities.

All that said, I don't actually mind Haley and Elan's relationship either way.

[CountDVB]

Yes, it's a parody of D&D, I didn't know that "men are children who need their partner's supervision to behave" was an element of D&D.

We are all aware that Elan's childishness is a joke, that's not the issue people are raising. The issue is thay this particular joke coforms to a particular stereotype/gender role repartition where the "wife" is more emotionnally mature than the "husband" and acts as a substitute "mother", taking responsability for his behaviour rather than an equal partner. This is, of course, insulting to everybody involved, men becaude they are presented as / incited to act as emotionnally stunted adult children and womene because they are presented as / incited to act as secondary to their male partners

Spoiler: This is a comedy too, would you say there's nothing wrong with it?

Show

Obviously, we all know this isn't what The Giant us trying to portray with this relationship and 95% of the time it isn't what he portrays. But in this specific instance, several of us think the joke veeree into this territory. I can't talk for anybody else, but to me, it's specifically the "no roughhousing!" line that makes it cross the line and I think the joke would have been better without it.
I'm not ceiticizing the joke in itself but it's execution, because it unwittingly ends up playing into a harmful stereotype.

Except that Elan's childish dynamic has always been part of the joke, such as the dinosaur rides as "kiddie rides" and other stuff in the past comic. His childish demeanor in comparison with everyone of the party for the most part is kinda known, so it's kinda odd now in this particular instance are people being concerned. Though I just find it more odd since Elan isn't really the violent sort (I do not know about Sunny)

[Vikenlugaid]

Yes, it's a parody of D&D, I didn't know that "men are children who need their partner's supervision to behave" was an element of D&D.

Except Oots is not a parody of just D&D. This comic has made fun of several "not D&D" tropes since the beginning.

[CountDVB]

It's worth pointing out, though (and this is something that sprang to mind during that big argument in the previous thread), that this comic is a very different story now than it was ten years ago. It started as a wacky slappy parody, sure, but these days it's aiming to be something more straight-faced... to the point where we even had a page not too long ago that was specifically about the main characters criticizing their own behaviour at the start of the comic. There are jokes from those early days that I found funny then, and that I still find funny on a re-read, but would seem jarringly out of place in the context of the comic's current atmosphere and sensibilities.

All that said, I don't actually mind Haley and Elan's relationship either way.

Mind you, Thor describing the whole thing as parody was from late in the last arc. At the same time, the humor is still heavily present, it's just differently funny, but it still will subvert expectations and so on. None of us expected the mysterious ally would be a cheerful and childish beholder we only saw from the beginning of the comic as part of a joke and especially because of parody. Not to mention the self-referential behavior and so on.

So it's a lateral shift in humor, but I don't think the comic has become less funny or parody-based.

[Duiker]

Those are fine things, but I believe this only underlines the point that sweetness – goodness – is all he really brings to the relationship as a person. What do their days together look like? What is a date between them like?

I have seen goodness alone be the foundation of romantic relationships in real life between individuals with much less maturity and intellectual deficit between them. It has never ended well unless one partner changed in a way to alter the chemistry between them, in my recollection.

Please understand that I'm not trying to sell the value of being kind and considerate and optimistic short. These are most of the things that endear Elan to me as well. But a long-term monamorous relationship typically demands many points of compatibility to last, certainly many more than a one-sided affection for a character in a narrative.

Again, I do know this is exaggerated for comedic effect. But i wish we got to see them acting more like equals or Haley actually enjoying elements of his personality beyond "he is a good person" on a more regular basis.

I mean, concepts like daily life and things like dating make less sense when they're both adventurers. They're not exactly fighting over who's doing the dishes. This relationship may not survive their retirement from adventuring into a life that requires such considerations, but they've already committed to pursuing another big adventure after this one anyways.

They have time to figure it out.

[AstralFire]

I like how i (the person most critical of the relationship by far here) put in something like "I am aware it is a parody" and "I get why it works for others" etc in literally every post i made on the subject and we still get people coming in to inform me that it is a parody and i am thinking too much about things and that essentially my reading is incorrect

The fact that i have tried to support my explanations for why it doesn't work for me in and of itself is taken as verification of thinking too much

I'm sorry i don't appreciate the story in exactly the same way you do i guess?

But for the record, no, i don't just sit there and think about this story. I probably know the story of OOTS less on average than many commenters. I don't remember how to spell the name of the airship. I don't reread a lot. This is just the genuine impression i have gained casually over many years but have never pondered long enough to voice until someone else mentioned a lesser degree of the same feeling.

i thought about it long enough to explain my thought process to other people and tried to do so in a way that did not make anyone feel invalidated for not holding my opinion.

Sometimes we just come into works with different assumptions that make different jokes work or not work so well for us. No one hardly sits there and just thinks themselves into a conundrum over something they enjoy for the sake of being agitated.

[dancrilis]

This seems to be ranging close to the territory of: Is Haley taking advantage of the mentally handicapped for her own sexual pleasure.

I reject that notion.

Haley is with Elan for clearly defined reasons namely panel 15, Haley feels she is better wth him - why Elan is with her is also explained he cares about her and wishes to protect her (more then the rest of the party) at least (panel 3 (one could argue for 2 but I am including the top banner)).

That is not a bad basis for a relationship.

Seperate from the comic - Intelligence 3 is the lowest possible for an adventurer (so Elan meets it) and it is still adult intelligence - an intelligence 3 character can still be the best lawyer/linguist/enginneer/insert other job here around - profession is a wisdom skill intelligence has nothing to do with it.

[AstralFire]

I can't speak for anyone else, but i am not in any way arguing or even feeling that Haley is taking advantage of anyone. Or that Elan needs to be protected.

I just think the comedy is piled on high enough that it's not a believable relationship (for me!) because i feel like Haley would get bored quickly with the relationship as presented. Gender dynamics are much more relevant to me than mental disability here. Fyralti's and Ionathus' comments (among others) on some of the gender dynamics are well put and reflect my own thoughts. But lest someone bite too hard on that – while that is more relevant to my thoughts, my main thought has been and continues to be that it just seems like Haley would be bored in the long run.

I brought up intelligence as one of many factors because Haley is so often seen interacting with Elan in a condescending (if pleasant) manner rather than someone taking mutual joy in his free spirit (not that the latter never happens). That is why it is "coming up now" – generally Elan is condescended to by everyone, even Roy still, but the others aren't in a serious romantic relationship with him in conjunction with a prophecy that suggests it's going to be permanent while the story is in its final act.

I do appreciate that we are not at the very end of the story yet and both characters have expressed desire and shown ability to make changes to make things work, so we'll see how that all ends when Elan gets his happily ever after.

As an aside, i really would love it if this forum was slightly less unfriendly to writing long posts on the phone. I have to type many lines blind because the window does not adjust height for the on screen keyboard.

[Larsaan]

I guess one thing I'll say is that I think the Haley that originally fell in love with Elan felt more like an equal match for him. Sure, she was still smarter than him, but she could also be immature, had her own weird quirks like talking to her treasure, pinched stuff from other party members, and later turned out to be quite neurotic. We haven't seen that Haley in a very long while.

[AstralFire]

I guess one thing I'll say is that I think the Haley that originally fell in love with Elan felt more like an equal match for him. Sure, she was still smarter than him, but she could also be immature, had her own weird quirks like talking to her treasure, pinched stuff from other party members, and later turned out to be quite neurotic. We haven't seen that Haley in a very long while.

Yeah, I was thinking about this. And at the same time we watched Elan become more passive -- standing up to Tarquin by being more of a support and refusing to take lead on anything made for a more novel maturing/rebellion plot, but ultimately I feel like it made Elan's dynamic with Haley more lopsided. The return of Durkon (which, to be clear, I am very happy about) and Belkar and V's growth arcs has meant what I hoped for in terms of Elan stepping up in a more actively supportive role hasn't really manifested, either mechanically or emotionally. It is there, but the group is so coherent now that being the helper doesn't stand out like I expected. Which I suppose is ironically fitting. Mayhaps we'll get more opportunities for that with V knockouts from the council of... fiends? God, I can't remember what they're called.

[Thermophille]

For my two cents...

I think intelligence is overrated. I have above average intelligence; I can do most arithmetic in my head, and I'm a sophmore in college and I've never really had to study other than a quick review before exams. But I don't think my intelligence generally does a lot of good for me, especially in interpersonal relationships; in fact it's honestly done a bit of harm, since not having to work at school has left me lazier than most.

Elan may have a low intelligence, but that's not really the source of the problem, the source of the problem is his attitude. He's definitely gotten better, and I think Haley's influence will continue him moving in that direction. I don't think he'll ever stop being fun-loving, but I think I sense much greater maturity in his future.

I think it's definitely a hiccup in their relationship, and I could even see it being addressed at some point (though I don't think it's likely), but they're both motivated to overcome that barrier, and it's not anything insurmountable.

[DaOldeWolf]

I think intelligence is overrated.

Amen to that! Logic and analysis isnt everything. Raw logical intelligence can actually be detrimental in many situations. People sometimes lose the ability to act due to frankly how complicated this world can be (scared of making a mistake). Trying to get everything right and making sure they get all angles (until they go crazy when they lose control) can blind them from the bigger picture. Emotion and interests being put aside for logic´s sake can bring you misery.

As a real psychotherapist with a degree on family and couples, I will say an important lesson we were told in school. Its not about being the perfect couple. Its not about finding eternal happiness. Its not even about making a one fits all relationship (trying to make a recipe for all couples). Its about a relationship being satisfatory to the couple. Everything else is meaningless. As long as the relationship is working in a healthy manner (AKA a non toxic arrangement), it doesnt matter how their relationship is working because its working. If they like the deal they are in and how they resolve their issues isnt a problem then it really doesnt matter anything else. Because there is no issue to solve.

People like to create problems or imagine something is wrong when no one involved thinks it is (usually projecting themselves and their beliefs as the standards that everyone should follow). Until either Elan or Haley speak against the state of their current relationship, then there is nothing to address here. Its just a flimsy belief of what a relationship is and how it works. And yes, in some relationships, one can hold more power, one can be more responsible, one can be more childish as long as both parties agree to it. Like I said, toxic behavior is where a line shouldnt be crossed.