OOTS #1259 - The Discussion Thread

[Liquor Box]

Elan and Samantha (the sorcerer-bandit) are characters that started with 18 charisma and are investing statbumps and magic items into having higher charisma. At the time Haley probably had no charisma item or maybe a +2 cloak, where Samantha (being level 12 with maximized fireball) had 3 statbumps in charisma and probably a +4 cloak, so she had 24-25 charisma.

Elan at that time had similar starting cha, 2 statbumps in charisma and likely a +2 cloak, so 22ish Cha. Compared to Samantha, Haley's 16ish charisma wasn't doing well, and she probably had not invested in many social skills beyond bluff given her mistrustful nature and somewhat abrasive personality.

Assume Elan got Samantha's cloak after they defeated her and passed down his lesser cloak of Charisma to Haley. Today, Elan is probably as hot as Samantha was but unlike her, he has a bunch of social skills to be more charming as he's a face-style bard. When Haley started dating him, she's got a base charisma of 18 but all those rogue skill points (and didn't keep up with trapfinding). By level 16 she's probably stepped up her social game and is pretty close to Elan in social skills that matter to her (bluff still, but diplomacy as well, that's the bargaining skill she used in tinkertown. Sense motive a bit because it boost diplomacy, and Elan doesn't have that, probably some gather information too).

To any of normal person Haley is "TV attractive" and seems considerably more attractive when she interacts with you. She's out of just about anybody's league. Elan's even hotter, he's "considered hot even for movie star" attractive and also becomes more attractive when he actually uses his seduction skills. But to most mortals, both are easily "10s". Haley to her credit wasn't intimidated by his looks, even in the beginning. Her worries were about how much better a person he was than her, and giving trust to anybody. She only got defensive about her appearance when somebody objectively much hotter slagged her, both Samantha and Sabine (who is a primal being of sex appeal, a generic succubi has 26 charisma and all the right skills, and Sabine is likely advanced from there) and seemed to be hitting on her crush (or her crush seducing them).

I must admit I'm not seeing any reason there why Hayley's base Charisma would have increased beyond you 16ish estimate? You aren't proposing that Hayley, a rogue, invested level up increases to charisma are you? Admittedly I dodn't consider items, and it is possible that Hayley has got one which may have boosted her charisma.

I was thinking about physical attractiveness, and as you reference, she was implied to be less attractive than Samantha. There was also a scene where Hayley's clothes were too big for Roy's girlfriend, and Hayley seemed displeased by that (not commenting personally on whether being less thin is less attractive, but the scene implied Hayley thought so).

On the other hand the comic has implied on various occasions that she is attractive. So the only conclusion I think we can reach is that she is attractive, but less attractive than the best looking people going around. I'm not sure why you conclude that she is TV attractive and out of just about everyone's league? I suppose there's no reason to think she can't be, and if you see her like that, all good, but I'm not sure the comic guides us that way.

[Fyraltari]

It goes both ways in that the trope can be read as having negative implications for both genders, not that negative implication for each is exactly the same. Men are portrayed as incapable and stupid (in a way that goes well beyond chores, which Elan stands as an example of), which to me seems to be a negative critique. Women are portrayed as competent, but this normalises the idea that women for carrying an uneven share of the responsibility in the relationship (including chores).

Oh, okay. I think that waht confused me was that it seemed to me that everyone already agreed on that and that "it goes both way" seemed to imply that the sterotypes was as often flipped as not and with the same connotations (which is false). My bad, carry on.

[dancrilis]

Gygax certainly intended Int to equate to IQ, and said as much in the 1st ed AD&D DMG.

I am not sure about this (depending how you are using the word equate):

Intelligence: The intelligence rating roughly corresponds to our modern "IQ" Scores. However, it assumes mnemonic, reasoning, and learning ability skills in additional areas outside the written word.

They don't really (at least to my memory) detail how rough it is, and I would read it more as 'some people use IQ to tell how intelligent someone is, in DnD they can use Intelligent score to determine this - but the Intelligent score is better then the IQ score as it represents more things'.

[Seward]

I must admit I'm not seeing any reason there why Hayley's base Charisma would have increased beyond you 16ish estimate?

Because she is a level 16 rogue who uses social skills who travels with a bard who at some point had a +2 cloak of charisma because of course he did, who defeated a 12th level sorceress (or more) who would have routinely had a +4 cloak of charisma.

Which would have gone to Elan.

Who else in the party has a use for a +2 charisma item?

Honestly they should both have +6 cloaks by now, but Giant doesn't really show magic item growth unless it is plot important, and OOTS usually seems behind (witness Belkar just now upgrading to a +3 resistance vest, an item that most adventurers would have had 5 levels ago. But then nobody makes a save in OOTS unless it is plot appropriate either, so I guess they know that and don't bother). Given how Belkar described tossing 1 rings of protection in the trash back in Azure city though, they're getting more than Elan's boots of elvenkind, Roy's sword, Haley's bow (she already had the boots of haste), Durkon's Thor-granted weapons (he also got a whole suit of level appropriate armor that was barely mentioned), Tarquin's dagger, Blackwing's bauble and Belkar's ring of feather fall/clasp of prot evil.

Rich doesn't mention the boring stat boosters and resistance items that everybody routinely gets because they're boring, beyond Roy getting a belt of strength because he wanted to make jokes about how strong at 15th level fighter really is at level 15 later.

As for Haley being TV attractive - as noted both Elan and Samantha back in the day are pushing "succubus-level-attractive". Lets put them aside. Haley even without magic items is in the top 3% of humanity (that's what a 16 on 3d6 means). TV-attractive is something you'll see people achieve on the street who start out with a good body and dress well, have good grooming and have confidence.

Elan (at level 15), Samantha (at 12) and Sabine are either approaching the kind of beauty described as godlike in the old myths and Sabine probably actually achieves it. So they look as good as (think of whatever movie star was considered very hot in their day, say Pierce Brosnan in his prime, or Marylin Monroe by the standards of her time etc) when they're under the care of a makeup artist, hair stylist, wardrobe and under the most flattering light movies can provide, maybe with post production airbrushing. Nobody on a human scale can compete with somebody like that.

But when Haley met Elan, he was a mere "18", maybe 20 if he had a +2 cloak at the time. Human but amazing for a human (Captain Awesome in the TV series Chuck for example), and when not pitted against Sabine or Samantha, Haley was easily the most attractive woman in any scene.

[bunsen_h]

also while it sounds snarky "unstructured alliance-strengthening exercise" is what elan's best used for right now

It would still be useful to run any plans past Elan for his assessment of the "narrative structure" element, which he's far better at than anyone else in the party.

while serini and the order have put aside their differences for now it's still on shaky ground, getting sunny to like them (or at least elan) is the best hook they have on her at the moment to ensure their alliance keeps going should things go sideways

Elan and Sunny are already pretty solid with each other. Given the existing friction between Serini and the Order, a case could be made that it would be useful to have Elan and Sunny present for any negotiations or plans that they're all working on, to smooth over any conflicts. Basically, it comes down to the question of which is more likely to be productive: a meeting where they're present to offer their limited contributions, but bored and distracted; or a meeting without their contributions, while they're off by themselves and potentially getting into trouble. It's not like a modern business meeting where half the participants have nothing to contribute, and could be spending their time more constructively doing their usual tasks.

In the early days, Elan could get into a lot of trouble when he didn't have constructive tasks to focus on (and sometimes even when he did). He's somewhat better now, and has even shown that when he cooked up secret surprise plans, they made a critical difference to the success of an adventure: the arrival of Julio Scoundrél in BRitF. Serini's comments about needing to keep Sunny distracted suggest that he may have a similar talent for getting into trouble. Put two (or more) such people working together, and the potential for chaos grows non-linearly. Elan's role as agent-of-Chaos is pretty solid.

[Quizatzhaderac]

....charisma ... charisma...charisma...charisma...

But charisma isn't the same thing as attractiveness, it isn't even a physical stat. Charisma goes up with age, while looks famously do not.

Yes, all else equal the more charismatic person will seem more desirable (if they want to), but things are often very unequal.

Xykon is by far the highest charisma character, but the typical woman is more likely to vomit on seeing him that be attracted.

Belkar explicitly has low charisma, but women seem to find him attractive.

Julia's is implied to be very attractive (by high school standards), but she seems to have trouble getting adults on the outside to school to give her the time of day.

[bunsen_h]

But charisma isn't the same thing as attractiveness, it isn't even a physical stat. Charisma goes up with age, while looks famously do not.
[...]
Julia's is implied to be very attractive (by high school standards), but she seems to have trouble getting adults on the outside to school to give her the time of day.

It's a bit hard to take seriously a woman whose go-to move, the moment she thinks she's not getting the attention she deserves, is to flash her boobs.

[Saint-Just]

But charisma isn't the same thing as attractiveness, it isn't even a physical stat. Charisma goes up with age, while looks famously do not.

Remember: in the Stickyverse your hearing and sight do improve with age.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Remember: in the Stickyverse your hearing and sight do improve with age.

Got to be good looking, 'cause they're so hard to see.

[Doctor West]

It continues to amaze me how much trouble some people have with the concept that the Order might not be optimizing* their magic items, much less that some real players don't.

*In which 'optimizing' means 'following popular theorycraft to the letter'

[Jason]

But charisma isn't the same thing as attractiveness, it isn't even a physical stat. Charisma goes up with age, while looks famously do not.

Gygax tried to remedy this by introducing Comeliness as an attribute separate from but modified by Charisma in the original Unearthed Arcana, but it didn't stick into later editions.

Comeliness reflects physical attractiveness, social grace, and personal beauty of the character. It is used to determine initial reactions to the character, and characters with a high comeliness may affect the wills and actions of others. While charisma deals specifically with leadership and interactions between characters, comeliness deals with attractiveness and first impressions.

You rolled it on 3d6 and then modified it based on your charisma and your character's race. An unlucky half-orc could end up with a charisma of 3 and comeliness of -5. "Aversion and a desire to be away from so ugly a creature will be evidenced by all viewers."
A lucky high elf, on the other hand, might have 18 charisma and a 23 comeliness. "The stunning beauty and gorgeous looks of a character with so high a comeliness will be similar to that of those of lesser beauty (17-21), but individuals will actually flock around the character, follow him or her, and generally behave foolishly or in some manner so as to attract the attention of the character."

[dancrilis]

Who else in the party has a use for a +2 charisma item?

Durkon - it is the base stat for his ability to turn undead.

... and when not pitted against Sabine or Samantha, Haley was easily the most attractive woman in any scene.

The Empress of Blood likely has higher, as does Jenny, Miko probably does also, maybe Lien, likely Serini, I would say Celia also - these are merely a sample off the top of my head* I could likely come up with more - this is all if we are basing things of mechanics and equating charisma with appearance.

*I kindof want to include Laurin also but from a mechanics prespective I can't give her a probably/maybe/likely/etc I could have went with an 'I would say' but feel you can only use that once (in short occurance - compared to effectively three 'likely') and Celia covers that.

[Liquor Box]

Because she is a level 16 rogue who uses social skills who travels with a bard who at some point had a +2 cloak of charisma because of course he did, who defeated a 12th level sorceress (or more) who would have routinely had a +4 cloak of charisma.

Which would have gone to Elan.

Who else in the party has a use for a +2 charisma item?

Honestly they should both have +6 cloaks by now, but Giant doesn't really show magic item growth unless it is plot important, and OOTS usually seems behind (witness Belkar just now upgrading to a +3 resistance vest, an item that most adventurers would have had 5 levels ago. But then nobody makes a save in OOTS unless it is plot appropriate either, so I guess they know that and don't bother). Given how Belkar described tossing 1 rings of protection in the trash back in Azure city though, they're getting more than Elan's boots of elvenkind, Roy's sword, Haley's bow (she already had the boots of haste), Durkon's Thor-granted weapons (he also got a whole suit of level appropriate armor that was barely mentioned), Tarquin's dagger, Blackwing's bauble and Belkar's ring of feather fall/clasp of prot evil.

Rich doesn't mention the boring stat boosters and resistance items that everybody routinely gets because they're boring, beyond Roy getting a belt of strength because he wanted to make jokes about how strong at 15th level fighter really is at level 15 later.

As for Haley being TV attractive - as noted both Elan and Samantha back in the day are pushing "succubus-level-attractive". Lets put them aside. Haley even without magic items is in the top 3% of humanity (that's what a 16 on 3d6 means). TV-attractive is something you'll see people achieve on the street who start out with a good body and dress well, have good grooming and have confidence.

Elan (at level 15), Samantha (at 12) and Sabine are either approaching the kind of beauty described as godlike in the old myths and Sabine probably actually achieves it. So they look as good as (think of whatever movie star was considered very hot in their day, say Pierce Brosnan in his prime, or Marylin Monroe by the standards of her time etc) when they're under the care of a makeup artist, hair stylist, wardrobe and under the most flattering light movies can provide, maybe with post production airbrushing. Nobody on a human scale can compete with somebody like that.

But when Haley met Elan, he was a mere "18", maybe 20 if he had a +2 cloak at the time. Human but amazing for a human (Captain Awesome in the TV series Chuck for example), and when not pitted against Sabine or Samantha, Haley was easily the most attractive woman in any scene.

I don't agree with you for three main reasons.

First, I don't think there is any good reason to use 16 as Hayley's base charisma. I suspect you are coming from an optimisation perspective here - that a rogue who uses social skills would usually invest in charisma as a secondary or tertiary ability, but the Order isn't well optimised so I don't think that goes so far. I think there's been enough hints to support that she's above average, but not to take it any further than that.

Second, I don't think there's any reason to assume she has charisma enhancing items. Again, OotS character don't optimaly upgrade their items, and the artwork suggests Hayley doesn't have a cloak. OotS does usually mention items (for example Roy's belt). The Class Geekery thread says that Elan obtained a Belt of Charisma+2 in strip 675, well after the Samantha encounter, which contradicts the idea that Elan got a +4 item at that point and gave Hayley a +2 item he already had.

Third, I don't think it's accurate to assume that Elan's charisma is any higher than real world humans'. Nothing in the 3.5 rules suggest that humans are restricted to max 18 ability scores - there are plenty of ways to go higher in 3.5, and there's no reason to think there aren't ways to go higher in the real world too. Indeed, we know from lifting/carrying capacity that real world people can have strength well in the 20s. Charisma can't be measured, but there's no reason to think it's different. Of course, the real world doesn't have magical ways to enhance charisma, but we do have other ways to improve appearance unavailable to Elan (eg, orthodonitc, toothpaste, various creams and treatments, makeup, cosmetic surgery, gymnasiums with equipment to target specific ares etc). I suspect most of the most attractive TV personalities supplement their natural gifts by working very hard on their appearance. I think it reasonable to assume the world's most charismatic people have charismas in the twenties at least, if converted to the DnD scale.

[KorvinStarmast]

Second, I don't think there's any reason to assume she has charisma enhancing items.

Tarquin would disagree with you, as regards her perky eyes.

As to Elan, I have found the author's glorification of stupidity through Elan to be one of the least attractive aspects of this comic strip. Fortunately, there are sufficient counterbalancing features which mitigate that damage.

[Satohika]

Babyfication of Elan (despite of all those arcs of character development about him) is a big turn off for me.

[JonahFalcon]

Does anyone remember that The Order of the Stick is... you know... not to be taken too seriously, and that nearly every strip ends with a joke?

How did they survive reading Dungeon Crawlin' Fools?

If you don't find The Order of the Stick funny, maybe you should read another strip?

[hroþila]

If you don't find The Order of the Stick funny, maybe you should read another strip?

Do you need EVERY SINGLE JOKE to land in order to appreciate a work of comedy?

[JonahFalcon]

Do you need EVERY SINGLE JOKE to land in order to appreciate a work of comedy?

Does everyone need The Order of the Stick to become Cerebus?

[KorvinStarmast]

Do you need EVERY SINGLE JOKE to land in order to appreciate a work of comedy?

Nope. Said better than I had intended to say in response, so I'll just + this.
FWIW: I have stated on numerous occasions that I find Rich's ability to set up and land a joke to be pretty solid, and is the prime reason to keep coming back time and again. Writing comedy effectively is difficult.

[dancrilis]

... I have found the author's glorification of stupidity ...

I might be missing something here - but when has the author ever glorified stupidity?

[pendell]

I might be missing something here - but when has the author ever glorified stupidity?

The way Elan is the Roadrunner from the old Looney Tunes cartoons. Not a brain in his head, still manages to avoid all calamity and he's the only one in the strip guaranteed a happy ending.

Elan had some character growth back when the party was separated and for a moment, as Dashing Swordsman, looked pretty competent. But over the last book as Roy has taken center stage he's stepped back from heroism back into his more accustomed role as comedy relief character. I have to wonder if there's a certain psychology at play -- to what extent Elan's stupidity is still what it was in book 1, and to what extent he's outgrown the role but still plays it because it meshes well with the team. Elan is not a natural leader. I have to wonder how much of his incompetence is still real and how much of it is -- not so much feigned but more like a 'comfort zone' he lives in, so that Haley and Roy can take center stage. Elan would rather be the goof-off than the serious person making serious plans.

Although, frankly, as I about to step into yet another hour long meeting *I* wish playing with an eye-thingy was an option also.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[InvisibleBison]

Does anyone remember that The Order of the Stick is... you know... not to be taken too seriously, and that nearly every strip ends with a joke?

How did they survive reading Dungeon Crawlin' Fools?

If you don't find The Order of the Stick funny, maybe you should read another strip?

Surely you are aware that it is possible for people to enjoy a work overall while still disliking an individual element of that work. I don't think it's helpful to discourage people from criticizing the comic, especially in the discussion thread.

[danielxcutter]

The way Elan is the Roadrunner from the old Looney Tunes cartoons. Not a brain in his head, still manages to avoid all calamity and he's the only one in the strip guaranteed a happy ending.

Elan had some character growth back when the party was separated and for a moment, as Dashing Swordsman, looked pretty competent. But over the last book as Roy has taken center stage he's stepped back from heroism back into his more accustomed role as comedy relief character. I have to wonder if there's a certain psychology at play -- to what extent Elan's stupidity is still what it was in book 1, and to what extent he's outgrown the role but still plays it because it meshes well with the team. Elan is not a natural leader. I have to wonder how much of his incompetence is still real and how much of it is -- not so much feigned but more like a 'comfort zone' he lives in, so that Haley and Roy can take center stage. Elan would rather be the goof-off than the serious person making serious plans.

Although, frankly, as I about to step into yet another hour long meeting *I* wish playing with an eye-thingy was an option also.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I mean he did intentionally draw out the Mind Blank insult to get it over with, so I'd say he's at least PC-level competent. As in, I've heard of successful campaigns with PCs much more - let's go with "eccentric" - than current Elan.

[arimareiji]

It's a bit hard to take seriously a woman whose go-to move, the moment she thinks she's not getting the attention she deserves, is to flash her boobs.

Not disputing it, I just don't remember and was hoping you could point me in the direction of when it happened - when did Julia do/say that?

Tarquin would disagree with you, as regards her perky eyes.

Well-played. My favorite jokes are the ones that take a moment to land, but land harder when they do. XD

As to Elan, I have found the author's glorification of stupidity through Elan to be one of the least attractive aspects of this comic strip. Fortunately, there are sufficient counterbalancing features which mitigate that damage.

One very notorious example being Thog, who the Giant explicitly told us via title (very early, in #51) was a counter-example.

I mean he did intentionally draw out the Mind Blank insult to get it over with, so I'd say he's at least PC-level competent. As in, I've heard of successful campaigns with PCs much more - let's go with "eccentric" - than current Elan.

Then again, less-eccentric characters can be too much if feelings get hurt. I tried to play what was essentially a toned-down-kender* halfling rogue back in college, and if I remember right, the final straw was undoing the uptight cleric's robes while he was praying for his next day's spells. Apparently after offline conversation in between, at the next session the DM issued a ruling that any use of rogue skills on party members would automatically fail.

* - Although oddly enough, I didn't even know what they were at the time. Part of the reason I read Dragonlance was out of curiosity... one of the party rolled his eyes and said my character was a "g--d--- kender", then explained when I asked.

[Ionathus]

Does anyone remember that The Order of the Stick is... you know... not to be taken too seriously, and that nearly every strip ends with a joke?

How did they survive reading Dungeon Crawlin' Fools?

If you don't find The Order of the Stick funny, maybe you should read another strip?

I am tired of this fallacy.

"It's a comedy, don't overthink it" is not a blanket excuse to dismiss any criticisms. Especially because this comedy has also, ever since Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, aspired to character-driven dramatic storytelling.

Order of the Stick clearly wants to tell a good story, with rich characters. On the whole it succeeds, but when it takes a misstep, it is okay to point that out.

[Jervis]

I've had this back-and-forth feeling about Haley & Elan's dynamic before: it's fun to have a fictional relationship where the guy is the complete ditz but still romantic, empathetic, and competent (in his own ways). However, some of the jokes of Haley managing Elan's behavior do read as very maternal, especially that exchange when he'd been lured away by Sunny which verged on feeling almost icky for me. I think their dynamic is at its strongest in scenes like bartering in Sandsedge, where they're both acting like adults but Elan simply has much lower savvy.



I disagree with that generalization. The vast majority of married couples I know treat each other with mutual respect.

Hey you never know, maybe they’re just into that kind of thing. Jokes aside Elan getting flanderized is something i’m kinda worried might happen but so far he’s been really useful in this arc. Mostly playing mind games with Sunny and high diplomacy along with narrative sense.

[bunsen_h]

Not disputing it, I just don't remember and was hoping you could point me in the direction of when it happened - when did Julia do/say that?

I was slightly off. She didn't flash them, she cupped them and tried to call Durkon's attention to them. "Look! Boobs! Don't you like boobs? Don't you want to pay attention to the girl with the boobs? _{C'mon, this always works with my teachers...}"

The flashing was by Sabine, three pages later.

[Ruck]

Does anyone remember that The Order of the Stick is... you know... not to be taken too seriously, and that nearly every strip ends with a joke?

How did they survive reading Dungeon Crawlin' Fools?

If you don't find The Order of the Stick funny, maybe you should read another strip?

I am tired of this fallacy.

"It's a comedy, don't overthink it" is not a blanket excuse to dismiss any criticisms. Especially because this comedy has also, ever since Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, aspired to character-driven dramatic storytelling.

Order of the Stick clearly wants to tell a good story, with rich characters. On the whole it succeeds, but when it takes a misstep, it is okay to point that out.

I agree (even if I don't think the specific thing we've been talking about was a misstep). This is a great story, as you said, and great stories should make us think, and it's certainly easier to notice when something in a great story doesn't live up to the level it usually plays at. I think "It's a comedy; turn off your brain and enjoy it" is, frankly, an insult to a story that's this good and made with this much care.

(As a side example, I felt this way about Ted Lasso-- season 2 was still better than most television, but because season 1 was so good and so precise in the details of its storytelling, it was easier to notice where season 2 didn't take care of those details in the same way.)

It's a bit hard to take seriously a woman whose go-to move, the moment she thinks she's not getting the attention she deserves, is to flash her boobs.

I was slightly off. She didn't flash them, she cupped them and tried to call Durkon's attention to them. "Look! Boobs! Don't you like boobs? Don't you want to pay attention to the girl with the boobs? _{C'mon, this always works with my teachers...}"

The flashing was by Sabine, three pages later.

Eh, I don't think we can extrapolate too much from one incident, especially since Julia is a teenager-- I wouldn't call her a woman yet. (And with the teachers, I imagine it's more for trying to get them to raise her grades than for sheer attention. And what kind of teachers do they have over there that this works on, anyway...) Of course, I might not take her seriously because she's a teenager, and more specifically because according to Roy, she's a fairly spoiled one. (And pretty self-absorbed, although whether she is more so than the baseline for teenagers, I can't say.)

[Vikenlugaid]

I am tired of this fallacy.

"It's a comedy, don't overthink it" is not a blanket excuse to dismiss any criticisms. Especially because this comedy has also, ever since Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, aspired to character-driven dramatic storytelling.

Order of the Stick clearly wants to tell a good story, with rich characters. On the whole it succeeds, but when it takes a misstep, it is okay to point that out.

Ok let's talk then about Haley's change of alignment to straight evil.


It is not that we can't criticize a work of comedy, it is just that we shouldn't take any dialogue as a serious thing in a work if comedy (and parody). You can criticize that you don't like a joke, but overanalizing that joke to the point that you are even judging the character who is doing it is a bit too much.

Then Roy is evil for doing the joke about the "raw materials" in #1237 when his friend was in a live or dead situation? because if we analize that the sane way that Haley's joke in last chapter, Roy is totally a horrible person there.

This is a goid story, yes, but thus story has jokes on it that are "outside" of the "serious story", and it is ok because this is a parody too. Haley's joke in the last chapter has absolutely 0 trascendence in the story being told, the story is the same good with or without that joke.

[Fyraltari]

Ok let's talk then about Haley's change of alignment to straight evil.


It is not that we can't criticize a work of comedy, it is just that we shouldn't take any dialogue as a serious thing in a work if comedy (and parody). You can criticize that you don't like a joke, but overanalizing that joke to the point that you are even judging the character who is doing it is a bit too much.

Then Roy is evil for doing the joke about the "raw materials" in #1237 when his friend was in a live or dead situation? because if we analize that the sane way that Haley's joke in last chapter, Roy is totally a horrible person there.

This is a goid story, yes, but thus story has jokes on it that are "outside" of the "serious story", and it is ok because this is a parody too. Haley's joke in the last chapter has absolutely 0 trascendence in the story being told, the story is the same good with or without that joke.

What the hell are you on about? No one has said this joke refelcted poorly on Haley. All that people are saying is that the joke doesn't land very well, calm down for pity's sake.