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Thread: Am I being salty about nothing?
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2022-06-18, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2019
Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Sure, they can, but it's not necessarily the "right" answer either. Personally, I prefer it when the GM creates the world however they choose, but doesn't alter it depending on player action. For example, if the GM decides that the castle is guarded by 20 guards, thinking that would be enough to keep the PCs out, I don't think the GM should add another 20 that were "there all along" when it turns out the PCs killed all the original guards. It's a matter of preference, obviously.
And if that was what the GM had in mind, only to decide to not include the pumpkins because they couldn't be bothered or wanted to mess with the players or something, I agree that it was wrong.
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2022-07-01, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
It's not the DM's place to decide which of the party's possessions are important to the party. If the DM felt that the party buying an arbitrarily large number of pumpkins was going to be a problem for the game, then the way to handle that was to make it so that there weren't that many pumpkins available to buy. The process matters here.
1) I can't tell if this is agreeing or disagreeing with what I said. I agree that buying a giant pile of pumpkins was probably a dumb idea, but by making the pumpkins available to purchase, the DM is tacitly allowing the PCs to have them.
2) Reasonable consequences that make sense in-universe and flow logically from that decision, yes. Having the pumpkins rot because the PCs didn't bother to look at a map and realize it was a much longer journey than they thought would be a reasonable consequence. Arbitrarily leaving their stuff behind when they are whisked away in the middle of the night without any chance to grab their stuff or resist being taken is not a logical consequence of their actions, it's DM fiat.
3) The players by definition can't "arbitrarily delete the GM's stuff." That's not how being a player works.
3a) There's no reason whatsoever to assume that based on the information we have. At a certain DM's table who is known for doing things this way it's probably a good assumption. But just as a general assumption about how D&D works, absolutely not. The DMG is literally full of random treasure generating tables. Sure, this particular item was a parting gift from an NPC they had met, but I've already addressed why I do not believe that equals "this item will be important later."
4) Which can and should be done in a less heavy-handed way than "when you wake up your stuff is gone."
Exactly.
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2022-07-01, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Again, people keep acting like this was some evil scheme on the DMs part to deprive them of pumpkins he didn’t want them to have. I am sure that a cartload of produce was the last thing on the DMs mind, and trying to railroad the PCs by telling them they couldn’t have that many pumpkins as many posters have suggested was, imo, in no way a better solution for either party.
Of course, I am still waiting on clarification for what the pumpkins are for.Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2022-07-01, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Players delete GM stuff all the time, it’s the essence of being a murder hobo. Killing NPCs who aren’t meat to be killed is the classic example. Deliberately ignoring clues is another example.
It’s pretty easy to tell if an item is treasure/reward or if it is plot related.
- You kill the dragon, the GM makes several rolls on a table and says the treasure haul is blah blah blah plus an amulet worth 200 gp. Obviously loot for the party meant to be sold.
- The baroness gives the player who went of her way to save Tiddums McFluffycat from the feline eating goblins who raided the baroness’ castle an amulet worth 200 gp - obviously a reward to the player for good roleplaying.
- Old man quest giver gifts the only elf in the party a silver dwarven crossbow bolt with an unspecified value and says this is a token of the friendship between elves and dwarves. Obviously a Chekov’s gun.
Any time there is a message attached to an item, the item is given to a specific character for a specific reason or description of an item that shows it is somehow special that goes beyond its in game effect then it is reasonable to assume it is some kind if Chekov’s gun. If later events show that the assumption is wrong or the plot has moved in a different direction then by all means sell it.
4) Which can and should be done in a less heavy-handed way than "when you wake up your stuff is gone."
I have no problems wth a heavy handed approach such as “when you wake up your stuff is gone” provided it meets the following criteria.
1) The stuff is game breaking. Either because it is so far off the plot as to be breaking the plot or it is way too powerful.
2) The players have not invested too many resources into acquiring it.
3) The players haven’t had the stuff for an extended period and therefore have the expectation that it will continue.
4) It gets the game back on track.
I’ve had GMs delete my stuff before, and whilst in the instant I was butthurt the game was better for it.Last edited by Pauly; 2022-07-01 at 04:11 PM.
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2022-07-01, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
I think the meaning is that for the players to fully have agency, that has to include the possibility to do things that are mistakes, that are a net-negative for their characters.
The GM refusing to let them buy pumpkins because the mist won't pick them up would be less than full agency, therefore.
And IMO, so would the GM changing any previously-decided events in order to preserve the pumpkins once bought. Railroading in the players' favor is more tolerable than the reverse, but it's still not full agency.
2) Reasonable consequences that make sense in-universe and flow logically from that decision, yes. Having the pumpkins rot because the PCs didn't bother to look at a map and realize it was a much longer journey than they thought would be a reasonable consequence. Arbitrarily leaving their stuff behind when they are whisked away in the middle of the night without any chance to grab their stuff or resist being taken is not a logical consequence of their actions, it's DM fiat.
+ The mist wants to grab victims, pumpkins are not interesting victims.
+ They're also not creatures, and if it grabbed inanimate objects wouldn't it bring in a chunk of the environment? Which doesn't seem to be the case.
- The mist does bring clothes and gear and such, so obviously it's not limited to purely creatures.
- The transition is elsewhere depicted as seamless, which it wouldn't be if part of the campsite / caravan / etc suddenly disappeared.
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2022-07-02, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
It was clearly not the last thing on the DM's mind because they went out of their way to specifically remove it.
Like they're running Curse of Strahd, they did the invitation from the duchess intro, didn't follow through on it (she asks you to shoo some travellers away, they say "yes, but please come with us to a thing" and that leads you to Barovia) so failed over to the creeping fog, and the DM specifically changed that to remove possessions, which it doesn't in the module (your camp is exactly as you left it, you notice the trees in the fog are subtly different from when you went to sleep and your entire camp is actually somewhere else without apparently having been disturbed at all, spoooooky!)
The DM had to do something active to remove the pumpkins, they didn't just forget the players had them.
I'm sure they didn't do it as an "evil scheme", they just wanted to not get distracted, but the time for that was when the players tried to sell the plot coupon not when they camped in the fog.
For reference, this is all the actual module says about getting into Barovia via the creeping fog:
Spoiler: Curse of Strahd ModuleThe woods are quiet this night, and the air grows chill. Your fire sputters as a low mist gathers around the edges of your camp, growing closer as the night wears on. By morning, the fog hangs thick in the air, turning the trees around you into gray ghosts. Then you notice these aren't the same trees that surrounded you the night before.
Nothing changes, your possessions are not removed, there are no rules in the module for what you can and can't bring. Just you camp, fog rolls in, welcome toEstaliaBarovia gentlemen.Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2022-07-02 at 06:28 AM.
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2022-07-04, 07:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
I've been trying not to say this, but I've finally failed my Will save: If I knew that I were going to be playing in a Ravenloft game (as this group apparently did), I, personally, would totally want to stock up on Pumpkins.
Now, this may sound strange, but Minecraft. I would totally want to Tainted Sorcerer free components Continual Flame jack-o'-lantern the realm of horror to the nines!
So losing my pumpkins would kinda be a big thing for me, personally.
Well, that's just dumb. The person on watch doesn't notice the trees teleport?
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2022-07-04, 10:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2022-07-05, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2022-07-05, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
I think this was all intended. I think the DM knew that his players were more concerned about pumpkins than they were about being trapped in Barovia or stopping an evil Vampire. So the DM did the only thing he could do that would motivate his players to go after Strahd. He had the mists take away their precious pumpkins!!!
Nooooooooo!!!! Not the pumpkins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Never has Strahd, in the history of D&D, performed so vile an act, so wicked a scheme, as to send shivers down the spines of any hag or fiend, as to dare remove some pumpkins from the players' possessions!
Legend has it the DM went on to change Barovia in another way... everywhere the players turned, there were ripe pumpkins on vines. But whenever the players approached, the pumpkins would immediately rot!! Wherever their gaze fell they could see the objects of their longing, but only from a distance, destined never to get any closer. Who is really imprisoned here? Who is the real dark power?
The devs have been so impressed by this obsessive preoccupation with pumpkins, that they immediately greenlit Curse of Strahd 2: This Time We Squash It, and have reimagined Strahd as a giant pumpkin man that lives in a giant pumpkin castle and has pumpkins for hands and feets and whenever he speaks pumpkins fly out of his mouth.
Early polling indicates this will be the most popular published adventure to date across any edition!!!Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2022-07-05, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
The PCs will of course be assisting the Vistani Pie maker in trying to overcome Strahd, using the sacred weapon known only as the Radiant Cool Whip Can to complete Strahd's demise. And of course the beautiful damsel in distress will be called
Spoiler: Don't Hate MePumpkin Spice
And they'll get to eat pie.
Pie, of course.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-07-05 at 02:57 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2022-07-08, 07:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
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2022-07-08, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
I guess you have three choices here:
1. Be salty and stop playing
2. Move on and keep playing
3. Be Salty and keep playing
Which do you think will lead to you and the others in your group having more fun?*This Space Available*
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2022-07-08, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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2022-07-08, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
That sounds like option 3 to me.
Lets be real here, player agency or not, the DM did not sign up to run Economics Simulator. Those pumpkins were going to splatter into the reality of the situation eventually anyway. Its pretty telling that nobody has been able to venture any ideas on what the pumpkins were for other than playing a totally different game than the one they actually signed up for.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2022-07-08, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Based on the guidelines presented in the module, there was no reason to make the cart disappear. The cart and pumpkins would also have been pretty much useless to the players, had it remained present (and that shouldn't be surprising to D&D players). Ultimately, it's hard to justify being upset about it, except purely on the principle of "DM shouldn't take stuff away by fiat". We can only guess at the DM's rationale for making it disappear, maybe they have a reasonable in-world justification that isn't obvious from the description of things- but it does seem like a strange thing to do. It wouldn't have hurt anything to let them have a cart of pumpkins, unless the players had some sort of rules cheese planned (that they could accomplish at low level) that nobody here has thought of yet.
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2022-07-08, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Right, and that's a game alignment issue, and should be handled out of game. Handle meta issues with meta conversations.
This is clearly a case of misaligned expectations. Don't handle those out of game.
The players clearly thought they were going to be in a situation where they could use the pumpkins. They weren't. Lots of people have said they should have known because Ravenloft.... so.... now meta knowledge is supposed to guide you?
And it's not and never has been that bad things can't happen. It's a matter of general expectations - if bandits had come and in a fight the pumpkins were destroyed, I doubt anyone would be salty.
People were upset. If you want to avoid that, you need to understand why. Just saying "they're dumb" or coming up with these strawmen like "what, now GMs have to justify everything" doesn't actually help.
People were likely upset because:
1. Their expectations were undermined (not "my pumpkin empire will work" but "there's normal continuity going on here").
2. Their plans were thwarted in a way that was complete fiat
3. The complete fiat way that their plans were thwarted came out of nowhere
You can fix this a bunch of ways:
1. "Hey, guys, this isn't pumpkin tycoon simulator. This is an adventure game. If you want to do an economics simulator, let's talk about it, because that ain't the game I'm running."
2. Give some ability to react to the mist that gives them some agency.
3. Foreshadow the mist in some way so that it's not a complete rug-pull.
There's a thing in writing called "plants and payoffs". Often viewed as Chekhov's gun, but it's slightly different. The idea is that if you're going to do something nuts, to make it seem congruous, you need to hint at it earlier. Like, if you're in some kind of gritty realistic setting, and you want a ninja attack, you need to have someone hear a TV report of ninjas attacking or something like that. Then when ninjas attack the main characters, the audience thinks (subconsciously) "oh, yeah, there are ninja attacks, so that makes sense." Ninja attacks in New York normally don't make sense, so if you don't set it up like that, you risk the audience doing a WTF.
Same thing here. It's a WTF that also removed agency.
Does the GM have to do these things? Of course not, but if you want to avoid those kinds of situations, it's helpful to do that level of due diligence, especially given the complete level of fiat most games give the GM. It helps to build trust.
So in this case it's "we're in medieval world, hey, pumpkin trading could be cool as a side thing, lulz. We should probably guard against bandits and stuff like that, as that's stuff that normally occurs. Wait, what? A mist just took everything? Where the heck did that come from?"
What you want is "we're in medieval world, pumpkin trading could be cool. There's legends of mists taking people at random? Wow, would suck if that happened! Oh, it happened to us??? Ugh! Of course it did, man we probably shouldn't have bought those pumpkins knowing that!"
I mean, the second is kind of an ideal situation, but setting up that something outside of normal expectations can happen before laying it on the players can help prevent those moments.Last edited by kyoryu; 2022-07-08 at 11:22 AM.
"Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2022-07-08, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Instead of focusing on the GM, as this forum likes to do; perhaps we should focus on the players?
Did they ask anything about the game BEFORE they bought the pumpkins? No, they just asked if it COULD* be done, and did it. They didn't care how it fit into the game the GM was planning. How much did the PCs spend looking for local rumors from NPCs about what was happening in the area? How much did the players ask about the type of game they were going to be playing? PCs have to engage in a game and its premise too and the onus should not always be on the GM. It is a collaborative game after all.
However, it has all ready happened; so the real question is..... do the players want to keep playing Curse of Strahd with the GM or not. If they do, then they need to share their feelings; and be ready to move on and keep playing. If they do not, then they need to be done. Pretty simple really.
* = Let's be honest, if the GM said, "No you should not do that as it doesn't fit the theme of this game." There is still a good chance a player could interpret that poorly and also be salty about it.Last edited by Easy e; 2022-07-08 at 12:43 PM.
*This Space Available*
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2022-07-08, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
It's entirely possible.
But then you're having the conversation you need to have - what is the expectation of the game? What kind of game is it, and what kind of game is it not? That's a player/gm level discussion. And if people really want to play Pumpkin Traders, and the GM doesn't, then it's just not a good fit. And that's okay"Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2022-07-08, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
I was never about Pumpkin Tycoon, it was always about collecting the pumpkin seeds and scattering them on the ground if they ever came across Strahd.
SpoilerCastlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2022-07-08, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Not quite. If you do it right and everyone listens then saltiness can be remedied.
The DM didn't sign up to run Economics Simulator, but they had their chance to not go down that rabbit hole when the party were trying to sell a gift from a duchess "the man recognises who it is from and says he could not possibly buy it, no-one near here will risk that attention".
He could *also* have tried to fix it gracefully "The people of Barovia are poorer than dirt, they cannot possibly buy this much produce" even if that means the party taking a bath on the pumpkins (but doing so in a naturalistic way not "your stuff disappears at random, do not trust your own character sheet") and maybe making up for it with a small boon later if the players simply gave them away (less valuable than whatever was planned for the necklace).
The DM *had* graceful ways to avoid the mismatch, and graceful ways to get back into harmony with the intent of the module, they did neither, possibly out of haste, and generated salt where none need exist. (and they can fix *that* by just having the players find their cartload of pumpkins abandoned on the road you always find whichever way you walk through the mist. Maybe some of them have been gnawed on.)Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2022-07-08 at 05:44 PM.
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2022-07-08, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Even if the ridiculous conclusion that people are jumping to about the DM is true, the players also have the opportunity to "gracefully" handle the situation and get over it and move on. Hopefully that is what happened.
Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
Sabian Skellegue, the Unyielding Wrath
IC OOC
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
Aelki Ruasha, Void Knight of the Star Ocean
IC OOC MAP
Chult Hex Crawl
Ondros, Mazewalker of Ubtao
IC OOC Slide Deck
Retired Characters
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2022-07-11, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2022-07-11, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
So, there is a good chance I am going to be running a Ravenloft campaign in the near future, and if I do, I am definitely going to put in a subplot about the Dark Powers stealing people's pumpkins as some part of nefarious scheme.
Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2022-07-12, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2022-07-12, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-07-13, 07:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2022-07-13, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
YMMV, but if a player quoted text from the module I would ask them to leave. Players do not read the module. They do not know what’s in the module. They, as a rule, do not get to know what the DM took license to embellish, improvise, or expand on. The game does not work if the DM blindly follows a book that the players already know front to back, because prewritten books will not adapt to your players.
Barovia is a cursed realm that Strahd has absolute control over. If Strahd wants the mists to separate the adventurers from their cart, that cart is gone. Is it advisable? Probably not, but it is not entirely unjustifiable.Last edited by Kvess; 2022-07-13 at 10:22 PM.
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2022-07-14, 05:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
There's no milage here at all. We're not players at this game, we're critiquing decisions from our ivory towers.
And I'm doing that from the doylist perspective. Strahd isn't real, he has no control over anything, the DM is real and does and to me the DM made a bad call here (because they made it too late and should have had to cope with the pumpkin shaped consequences of their previous calls).
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2022-07-14, 06:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I being salty about nothing?
So does that mean that anyone who is a GM themselves is not welcome at your table, because they might have read a module you're planning to run?
I could understand if it was "my game, my interpretation, if you know the wording, be aware that I might change it." But outright telling them to leave because they are a GM that also wants to play occasionally seems... overly harsh.What did the monk say to his dinner?
SpoilerOut of the frying pan and into the friar!
How would you describe a knife?
SpoilerCutting-edge technology