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Thread: Ms. Marvel

  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Ms. Marvel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    why even call them Djinn when they... don't do anything. Djinn are interesting mythological creatures, and they shouldn't be hard to make terrifying, even if you keep them entirely human-looking. Sure, Kamala is (part) Djinn, but still.
    There’s like a ‘92 physics paper were objects that only exist because they are in a casual loop are called Jinn. I’m not sure that’s actually relevant to the show, but it’s neat.
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    Default Re: Ms. Marvel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Yeah, the Djinn were just criminally wasted.

    I mean, why even call them Djinn when they... don't do anything. Djinn are interesting mythological creatures, and they shouldn't be hard to make terrifying, even if you keep them entirely human-looking. Sure, Kamala is (part) Djinn, but still.
    Didn't they specify in the show that they aren't actually Djinn, that's just what superstitious people back in the day called them, and if Thor had landed in Pakistan back then, they would have called him Djinn, too?

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    Default Re: Ms. Marvel

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    Didn't they specify in the show that they aren't actually Djinn, that's just what superstitious people back in the day called them, and if Thor had landed in Pakistan back then, they would have called him Djinn, too?
    They did.

    I think this show suffered from wanting to tell three stories:

    1) Kamala becomes Ms. Marvel
    2) Damage Control harasses Ms. Marvel
    3) Something on the partition of India/Pakistan

    I think it could have done two of those stories justice in its runtime. Personally I'd have focused on 1 and 2, but if they wanted 1 and 3 a split narrative of Kamala in New Jersey in the present and Aisha in India in the past, with Najma in both places, slowly declining into vicious murderousness in the past and slowly rising out of it in the present, would have been better than what we've got so far, which is just overstuffed.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    They did a way better job explaining the Partition than Doctor Who did.

    I'm curious what they do with Kamran. The story could have genuinely ended here, but it looks like they're trying for a curveball, and I'm not sure how it'll land.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Also, who the heck is authorizing Damage Control? Who thought it was a good idea to blow up a building to stop a moderately dangerous martial artist? (I really doubt they know anything more about the guy.)
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    Okay, having gotten around to watching the episode, I don't think that's exactly what happened. My take was that Kamren's sudden blasting of the drone caused it to malfunction (or perhaps trigger an automated defense measure) and fire the rocket by accident.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    Sadly, the CGI at the end of this episode was badly wanting, especially when Kamran’s mother and the other Clandestine were fried by the dimensional rift. The CGI should’ve stopped with the carbonization; adding the skeletons just looked cheesy.

    It was also downright confusing. Why was the rift forming then? Why was it suddenly inimical to the Clandestines? Why, after decades of hunting for a way home, didn’t they foresee this danger?
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    Yeah, the CGI was a little wonky. But I think the main reason they showed the skeletons is they wanted to telegraph to the audience that these people were definitely dead, not teleported or transformed into energy or whatever. Otherwise, it might have been confusing, leaving the audience to wonder if they made it or not.

    As for why the rift was so dangerous, they did touch on that in an earlier episode. Bruno ran the numbers and deduced that crossing the threshold would be incredibly dangerous, and that is what convinced Kamala to not go through with it, which in turn was why the Clandestines turned on her.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Originally Posted by JadedDM
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    My take was that Kamren's sudden blasting of the drone caused it to malfunction (or perhaps trigger an automated defense measure) and fire the rocket by accident.
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    Yeah, this was my take as well. If the drone had intended to fire on them, it would’ve fired straight through the window into Bruno’s second-floor room, rather than an angled shot into the first floor.


    Originally Posted by JadedDM
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    As for why the rift was so dangerous, they did touch on that in an earlier episode. Bruno ran the numbers and deduced that crossing the threshold would be incredibly dangerous, and that is what convinced Kamala to not go through with it, which in turn was why the Clandestines turned on her.
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    Thanks, good catch there. I was too busy wishing I had samosas.


    Originally Posted by ecarden
    …what we've got so far, which is just overstuffed.
    I wouldn’t call it overstuffed, and I’d say they managed the balance fairly well for the first four episodes, with the understanding that the superheroics isn’t always the priority.

    Question now is whether they pull off a neat bowtie in the final episode (to paraphrase Asimov) or if they follow in the established Disney+ tradition of finishing with a solid ground loop.

    .
    Last edited by Palanan; 2022-07-10 at 07:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I wouldn’t call it overstuffed, and I’d say they managed the balance fairly well for the first four episodes, with the understanding that the superheroics isn’t always the priority.

    Question now is whether they pull off a neat bowtie in the final episode (to paraphrase Asimov) or if they follow in the established Disney+ tradition of finishing with a solid ground loop..
    I think the first two episodes balanced things very well, then the Djinn...happened. I think I view it as overstuffed because that storyline was just moving at lightspeed and dragging everything else along with it, but it could also be that every time the Djinn were on screen, I was distracted by how weak I find them as villains, which made it feel more dominant than it actually was.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Originally Posted by ecarden
    …every time the Djinn were on screen, I was distracted by how weak I find them as villains….
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    I don’t entirely disagree. But in terms of the narrative, the Clandestines are right at the power level they need to be. They have to balance a fine line between being credible threats on the one hand, and on the other being a group that an untrained teenager with rudimentary powers could believably defeat.

    How well that’s executed is another question, and they could certainly have used a bit more pizazz. But overall I’d say they’re right where they need to be. Kamala isn’t (yet) at Carole Danvers levels of power, so she’s not quite ready to go plowing through giant starships hovering over upstate New York.
    Last edited by Palanan; 2022-07-10 at 12:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    I don’t entirely disagree. But in terms of the narrative, the Clandestines are right at the power level they need to be. They have to balance a fine line between being credible threats on the one hand, and on the other being a group that an untrained teenager with rudimentary powers could believably defeat.

    How well that’s executed is another question, and they could certainly have used a bit more pizazz. But overall I’d say they’re right where they need to be. Kamala isn’t (yet) at Carole Danvers levels of power, so she’s not quite ready to go plowing through giant starships hovering over upstate New York.
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    This is a great point. It struck me that they were clones of the average vamps in Buffy with no real abilities other than being not quite good enough to challenge any trained hero. :)

    I think Ms. Marvel excelled at telling Kamala's story, which is a story worth telling. However, the MCU part of it isn't terrific, oddly enough.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    I don’t entirely disagree. But in terms of the narrative, the Clandestines are right at the power level they need to be. They have to balance a fine line between being credible threats on the one hand, and on the other being a group that an untrained teenager with rudimentary powers could believably defeat.

    How well that’s executed is another question, and they could certainly have used a bit more pizazz. But overall I’d say they’re right where they need to be. Kamala isn’t (yet) at Carole Danvers levels of power, so she’s not quite ready to go plowing through giant starships hovering over upstate New York.
    I understand the desired power level, but
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    they're basically mooks and all of them except Najma have 0 development, which leaves them as...mooks, which might be fine, except their escape from the Damage Control folks also undercuts Damage Control as well, which just continues the standard MCU practice, which annoys me to no end, of government agencies ONLY really being a threat to heroes and not villains.

    But the other thing is, I hate it when the MCU creates another old (at least a century old) group that's never been mentioned before and then basically destroys them in the same show. It just feels...wasteful? Why create something new, only to toss it out literally two episodes after you introduced it?

    When combined with spending half of episode 5 showing us a story we already saw, with one minor alteration which you could see coming around the corner, it felt like a waste of badly needed time.
    Last edited by ecarden; 2022-07-10 at 12:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Ms. Marvel

    So, uh, tried to watch the pilot, was deeply unimpressed. Does the show get better? It seems like a very....very YA show, relying extremely heavily on coincidence for the plot to move forward, and I really don't care about high school shenanigans.

    Is there more to this show, or is it best written off as another Phase 4 failure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    So, uh, tried to watch the pilot, was deeply unimpressed. Does the show get better? It seems like a very....very YA show, relying extremely heavily on coincidence for the plot to move forward, and I really don't care about high school shenanigans.

    Is there more to this show, or is it best written off as another Phase 4 failure?
    If you didn't enjoy the first episode, I doubt you'll enjoy the rest.

    As the final came out, I would comment that it was mostly a return to form after the weaker 3-5, in my view. I have a few complaints, but it generally tied up the story it was telling. Way overstuffed and once again falls prey to the MCU's tendency to get distracted setting up other stuff and MCU TV's failure to understand that they're writing for a show broadcast over six weeks, but a lot of fun and quite enjoyable.

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    Well, that was an entertaining mess.



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    This was fun, but gyrating all over the place. The entire school situation was ridiculous, and it felt pitched for a much younger audience. It felt as if they wrote themselves into a corner about five different times, and then just splashed away with whatever came to mind. By the time we got to Kamala enclosing Kamran in a shell of energy, the dialogue was just painfully cliché.

    Kamala’s family sure adapted quickly to the whole idea, which in its own way was even less realistic than softballs and fire extinguishers slowing down federal agents. I find it hard to believe that everyone was so overwhelmed with Our Little SuperheroTM that they didn’t stop to wonder about potential dangers to themselves, which would be very human of them. Presumably they’ve heard about the giant alien spaceship that launched a missile barrage at the home of some other superheroes, or the nutbar before that who sent helicopter gunships to destroy another hero’s home, or the would-be alien conqueror who set up shop in the superheroes’ first tower just across the water. Heroes are trouble magnets, and Kamala's family should be thinking about that.

    So it was fun, sort of, but quite a few steps down from the show’s early baseline. With only a vestigial and oddly harmonious family element, the superheroics just didn’t hold up. Once again, Disney can’t stick the landing—and this particular landing reminds me of Mando’s arrival on the water planet.

    Also, where did Kamala’s mother buy that costume?

    And I hope it has an insulated seat, because street lamps get hot.


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    We got our Brie Larsen cameo, but weirdly—so much so that I have no idea what exactly happened.

    Did Kamala and Carole Danvers somehow cosmically switch places?
    Last edited by Palanan; 2022-07-13 at 04:16 PM.

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    Eeeeh, nah.

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    We got our CGI energy fest again, and a swat team with superweapons that was somehow Home-Alone'd. I dislike drawn out combat sequences at the best of times, and this one just felt silly. And the super quick crowd acceptance thing felt sappy, which is a shame, after all the quite real feeling drama.

    Still one of the better finales to a marvel series.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2022-07-13 at 04:27 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
    So, uh, tried to watch the pilot, was deeply unimpressed. Does the show get better? It seems like a very....very YA show, relying extremely heavily on coincidence for the plot to move forward, and I really don't care about high school shenanigans.

    Is there more to this show, or is it best written off as another Phase 4 failure?
    There’s definitely more, and I wouldn’t describe it as a failure by any means.

    That said, the show’s strength is in the family drama, and the looming presence of a major historical event which has shaped their lives for generations. Those elements are beautifully done, and the showrunners clearly threw their hearts into it.

    But if you’re more interested in straight-up superheroics, unfortunately that’s the weakest element of this show. The first episode was fairly basic setup, with the second probably the strongest overall. I enjoyed the third and fourth very much (one truly hilarious line in particular) but the fifth was a bit off-kilter and the finale is, well, a splashy mess.

    Watch the second episode. If it doesn’t draw you in, then you can safely assume the show isn’t your jam.

    Originally Posted by Eldan
    Eeeeh, nah.
    I agree with both drafts of your comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    We got our Brie Larsen cameo, but weirdly—so much so that I have no idea what exactly happened.

    Did Kamala and Carole Danvers somehow cosmically switch places?
    In short: It appears that way, yes.

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    In the comics, the Nega Bands are Kree artifacts that allow the wearers to, among other things, swap places. This is likely their origin here too, because Kamala's ancestors find the one they find pre-Partition worn on a blue hand, and Kree of course have blue skin (see Ronan the Accuser from GotG1.)

    However, Carol doesn't appear to have the other band (at least, she isn't wearing it) so it's unclear why she swapped with Kamala, or where Kamala ended up (Deep Space? The Negative Zone?) Regardless, suddenly appearing in your biggest fangirl's bedroom has to be disorienting.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Ms. Marvel

    Final episode:

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    Anyone else notice the musical sting when Bruno is talking to Kamala about her DNA?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sholos View Post
    Final episode:

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    Anyone else notice the musical sting when Bruno is talking to Kamala about her DNA?
    If by "anyone else" you mean "the entire internet" - then yes
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    If by "anyone else" you mean "the entire internet" - then yes
    Has me cautiously hopeful a certain team is being worked into the MCU proper.
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    Originally Posted by Sholos
    Final episode….
    That bit was actually my least favorite part.

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    I really don’t need Kamala to be a mutant, and I don’t know why they’re choosing her to run point on that. Kamala’s story is great on its own—she has a connection to an otherworldly lineage that allows her to access and channel the noor.

    Trying to make her a mutant as well only muddles the whole thing up, and diminishes everything she’s just been through. Here’s hoping that was a throwaway line and they don’t go down that route in the "Marvels" movie.

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    Default Re: Ms. Marvel

    Honestly, I feel like there's a pretty good chance that line was meant as a joke. Particularly because of Kamala's reaction to the news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    That bit was actually my least favorite part.

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    I really don’t need Kamala to be a mutant, and I don’t know why they’re choosing her to run point on that. Kamala’s story is great on its own—she has a connection to an otherworldly lineage that allows her to access and channel the noor.

    Trying to make her a mutant as well only muddles the whole thing up, and diminishes everything she’s just been through. Here’s hoping that was a throwaway line and they don’t go down that route in the "Marvels" movie.
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    They're choosing to do it because, well, she fits the classic mould. The young teen girl PoV character who acts as the audience's eyes into the team is a classic staple of the X-Men. Both Kitty Pryde and Jubilee were created specifically for that purpose, and you can bet every cat picture on the internet that if she hadn't launched whilst Perlmutter was in a massive snit about not having the movie rights to the Mutants Kamala would have been one instead of an Inhuman in the comics.

    Being a Mutant is content neutral for this version of Kamala, it neither helps nor harms the story that was told with her. (Certainly not as much as Damage Control. The opening shot of the next time we see them better be every single one of them being fired and the entire department closed down as a useless waste of money for being publicly humiliated by five teenagers three of whom didn't even have superpowers.)

    The emotional climax of the show was the end of episode 5.

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    Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
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    …Damage Control. The opening shot of the next time we see them better be every single one of them being fired and the entire department closed down as a useless waste of money….
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    They made it pretty clear that Deever was going rogue when she approved the operation, and Cleary will make sure that everyone knows it. Deever will be unemployed before the night is over—or stoking a boiler somewhere—but Cleary and DoDC will weasel out of it all. That’s how agencies operate.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    They made it pretty clear that Deever was going rogue when she approved the operation, and Cleary will make sure that everyone knows it. Deever will be unemployed before the night is over—or stoking a boiler somewhere—but Cleary and DoDC will weasel out of it all. That’s how agencies operate.
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    Deever going rogue doesn't exculpate the department from getting one of its SWAT teams punked by 3 completely ordinary highschool students. She didn't change their operational parameters, tell them to deviate from their training, or anything like that.

    They just got their mooks in a fire sale at the dollar store, there's no saving them, they all gotta go.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    You underestimate the talent of agency veterans for redirecting blame.

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    No one outside the school really knows what happened in there, and DoDC will work to keep it that way. Scapegoating Deever works perfectly, especially since it was her bad call to begin with.

    More than likely she'll be the only one to be fired, if they don't just rotate her out to a posting in Barrow or something.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Tried watching a few episodes. It's one of the worst shows I have ever seen. The writing was BAD. The acting was BAD. The story was BAD. The entire thing has a super "I'm just phoning this in for the paycheck" vibe.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by sluggerbaloney View Post
    Tried watching a few episodes. It's one of the worst shows I have ever seen. The writing was BAD. The acting was BAD. The story was BAD. The entire thing has a super "I'm just phoning this in for the paycheck" vibe.
    Yeah, after glancing over the discussion here and watching the pilot, I've decided not to bother going further. Better luck with She-Hulk, I guess.

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