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[JNAProductions]

Your belief is not RAW. The rules directly contradict that statement:

That's about as plain as it gets. It's not "just fluff text".
One of the PHB examples for using UMD has a character use a Dwarven Thrower - an item that functions for everyone but works better for a dwarf - as a dwarf would.

You can believe whatever you like, but the rules leave zero doubt that you're also wrong on this one.

The effect of a Monk's Belt is "+5 effective Monk levels".
The effect of a Dwarven Thrower is "+2 warhammer, ups to +3 Returning warhammer that deals an extra 2d8 damage to giants when thrown or an extra 1d8 otherwise when thrown if you're a dwarf".

You can pretend to be a Monk of level 15+ all you like, but it doesn't grant you Monk abilities outside what the belt gives. Which is +5 to your Monk level, of 0.

[Darg]

Your belief is not RAW. The rules directly contradict that statement:


That's about as plain as it gets. It's not "just fluff text".
One of the PHB examples for using UMD has a character use a Dwarven Thrower - an item that functions for everyone but works better for a dwarf - as a dwarf would.

You can believe whatever you like, but the rules leave zero doubt that you're also wrong on this one.

Except you are ignoring the fact that racial emulation =/= class feature emulation. Not to mention

or work better for members of those races.

The belt doesn't even work better for anyone else but the UMD users so you can't even use that argument.

Use this skill to activate magic devices, including scrolls and wands, that you could not otherwise activate.

Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item

These aren't fluff either. Anyone can activate the belt, and you don't need a class feature to activate it either. Depending on how you read the description, you might need the class features to benefit, but nothing says or implies that you need them to activate the item. Activate is the key word here. There is no mention of "benefit."

[sleepyphoenixx]

The effect of a Monk's Belt is "+5 effective Monk levels".

Except it's not. It's "The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher."

Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class

If you emulate a class ability "your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20."

I'm using the Monk's Belt as if i had the Unarmed Strike feature of a monk.
That does not give me the unarmed strike feature or any of its benefits. It just makes the belt think i have it, because that's what "as if you had" means.
If someone who has the unarmed strike feature of a 15th level monk wears a Monk's Belt his unarmed damage gets treated as that of a 20th level monk.

If you disagree provide a source. "THIS CANNOT BE!" is not a rules argument.

[Darg]

If you emulate a class ability "your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20."

I'm using the Monk's Belt as if i had the Unarmed Strike feature of a monk.
That does not give me the unarmed strike feature or any of its benefits. It just makes the belt think i have it, because that's what "as if you had" means.
If someone who has the unarmed strike feature of a 15th level monk wears a Monk's Belt his unarmed damage gets treated as that of a 20th level monk.

If you disagree provide a source. "THIS CANNOT BE!" is not a rules argument.

You're the one failing to prove that you need a class feature to activate the item. Show in what way the item requires the unarmed strike feature to activate. Show in what way the item needs the AC bonus feature to activate. As far as I can see, the item doesn't have valid UMD action choice to activate the item with.

[RandomPeasant]

But again, those quotes also "prove" that you can't UMD a staff of power. Your answer to that is that it "isn't anything strange", but that doesn't resolve the issue. You would agree, I assume, that you could emulate having a Paladin's smite or a Cleric's turn undead or a Druid's wild shape to activate an item who's only function was to activate based on one of those abilities. And you agree that the ability to activate something with UMD is severable in the staff of power case. So what distinguishes the monk's belt?

[Gruftzwerg]

You're the one failing to prove that you need a class feature to activate the item. Show in what way the item requires the unarmed strike feature to activate. Show in what way the item needs the AC bonus feature to activate. As far as I can see, the item doesn't have valid UMD action choice to activate the item with.

1. Class feature/race/bla don't need to be requirements to make use of UMD. It is enough if any of those get more or other benefits.

Check

You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

2. The Monk's Belt is "activated" at the moment you donne it.

Using Items

To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. Some items, once donned, function constantly. In most cases, using an item requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. By contrast, spell completion items are treated like spells in combat and do provoke attacks of opportunity.

3. The belt asks for your "effective monk lvl" in the monk's Unarmed Strike and AC bonus abilities. But it doesn't really improve or add to those. What it does is , that it directly targets the relevant stats. In case of Unarmed Strike the value gets exchanged and your AC gets a bonus to it.

4. While the Monk's Belt works better for those with "monk abilities", it doesn't improve those abilities. It gives you similar effects, as a monk effectively 5 lvls stronger, to stats that anybody can use. Unarmed Strike dmg and an AC bonus. You are having a hard time to realize this important difference. And as long as you ignore this important argument, we won't get to a conclusion here.

[redking]

Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

If UMD does not let you use the class feature, and monk's belt only give +5 whether you are a monk or not, from whence comes this extra +15?

Also, if the +20 (for a character with zero monk levels) is coming from the monk's belt, how can it be that this remarkable ability is not priced into the monk's belt?

[RandomPeasant]

Because the belt is not giving you "+5". It is giving you the feature as if you were five levels higher. It doesn't give you five additional levels that stack with your existing levels, it gives "your level plus five" levels that overlap with them.

[Gruftzwerg]

Emulate a Class Feature


If UMD does not let you use the class feature, and monk's belt only give +5 whether you are a monk or not, from whence comes this extra +15?

Also, if the +20 (for a character with zero monk levels) is coming from the monk's belt, how can it be that this remarkable ability is not priced into the monk's belt?

excuse me, but are you reading the arguments at all?

1) without UMD
As said several times, the Monk's Belt does not increase the monk abilities! It just gives better results as if you would have more (effective) monk levels (for the US and AC bonus abilities).

It EXCHANGES your Unarmed Strike dmg (a stat everybody has) and gives you an AC bonus (something everybody can use). "The target value is that of monk five levels higher", but that does not target/affect the monk's ability. And in both cases (US and AC) the stuff the belt gives overlaps the stuff you maybe already have from being a monk.

2) with UMD
UMD allows to you to pretend to have class levels to emulate class abilities to activate a target magic item. The item does not need to require this. It's enough if it produces better or other results. And this is the case for the Monk's Belt. It's a magic item that work better if you have (effective) monk levels.
The UMD roll gets a -20 penalty for emulation a class feature. If you still managed to get a 15 as result, you are now treated as having 15 lvls of monk features for the belt.
The Belt now looks up the Unarmed Strike dmg value of a 20th lvl monk and gives you this value to your Unarmed Strike dmg stat. It does not give you the ability, nor does it improve the ability (not even for a real monk)
Then it makes the same for the AC bonus of the monk. It asks for your effective monk lvls for the AC ability and gives you a separate ability that overlaps any possible original ability. It calls out that it works like the monks AC, as such it can't be improving the monk's ability, nor do you need the monk's ability to benefit form it.

3) item prices
The item is intended to scale with your (effective) monk levels. Under "normal" circumstances the item would "effectively" increases your monk's unarmed strike a step and adds +1 to AC (not the real mechanics here, just the "effective" gain in simplified non-rule words). That is included in the items price. The item is imho totally balanced. The one thing being OP here is UMD, and this is known since the early days of 3.5. Even the oldest guides always praise UMD (those guides where it is relevant) and how broken it is.
The stuff mentioned in this thread are just things that have been discovered later till more recently. But they are totally within the RAW power-spectrum of UMD. If you wanna blame something, blame UMD's power. The items are just the victims here...^^

[redking]

2) with UMD
UMD allows to you to pretend to have class levels to emulate class abilities to activate a target magic item. The item does not need to require this. It's enough if it produces better or other results. And this is the case for the Monk's Belt. It's a magic item that work better if you have (effective) monk levels.

Assuming 0 levels of monk class, where are the extra 15 levels higher coming from on addition to the five levels. Are you saying that the item is doing this?

Because the belt is not giving you "+5". It is giving you the feature as if you were five levels higher. It doesn't give you five additional levels that stack with your existing levels, it gives "your level plus five" levels that overlap with them.

Sure. So you emulate a monk class feature of X level, and if you are successful the item believes you to be a monk of that level. After that you get your monk level, which is zero, plus the five levels higher. UMD can't give you a class feature, just allow you to activate the item.

To get these extra 15 levels higher, you are insisting that UMD grants the class feature. It does not. Another example would be an item that requires turn undead to activate. That's fine. But just because you can activate an item that requires turn undead with UMD, it doesn't follow that you can then power the item with turning attempts. You are not able to use the class features that you are emulating.

It's also worth noting that monk's belt doesn't work better for the monk but rather exactly the same. Both use cases provide for the 5 levels higher.

[sleepyphoenixx]

But again, those quotes also "prove" that you can't UMD a staff of power. Your answer to that is that it "isn't anything strange", but that doesn't resolve the issue. You would agree, I assume, that you could emulate having a Paladin's smite or a Cleric's turn undead or a Druid's wild shape to activate an item who's only function was to activate based on one of those abilities. And you agree that the ability to activate something with UMD is severable in the staff of power case. So what distinguishes the monk's belt?

Why wouldn't you be able to UMD a staff of power? It works the same as any other staff. It has nothing to do with emulating a class feature.
It's a spell trigger item, so you use the "use a wand" function of UMD, same as for any other spell trigger item.

And yes, you can emulate having a paladin's smite or cleric's turn undead to activate an item which is activated by the ability in question.
That's literally straight from the example on emulating class abilities in the PHB.
Still not sure what you mean about the staff of power. It's a staff. It doesn't have any requirements for use aside from the usual "have the spell on your class list" that all staffs have.

What distinguishes the Monk's Belt from items like the Wilding Clasp is that it doesn't grant any abilities you don't already have. Everyone has unarmed damage and AC.
The key is the wording of the belt. It doesn't give you the Unarmed Strike and AC Bonus class features (in which case it wouldn't work with UMD because you don't have those).
It just increases your damage and AC as if you had them.

Emulate a Class Feature


If UMD does not let you use the class feature, and monk's belt only give +5 whether you are a monk or not, from whence comes this extra +15?

Also, if the +20 (for a character with zero monk levels) is coming from the monk's belt, how can it be that this remarkable ability is not priced into the monk's belt?

Unarmed damage is still not a class feature. Neither is AC.

I'm also not sure why ~6.5 average damage and +3 AC (over just using the belt without UMD) - for a massive skill investment and with a non-negligible failure chance every hour unless you have one of the few options to take 10 on UMD - is somehow remarkable. Because that's all you get from it over using it without UMD. It's not exactly a gamebreaker.
As for being priced in i assume the designers didn't account for UMD when pricing items, but that's just an educated guess. Different builds getting different value out of items isn't exactly new.

For the record, i'm arguing that it's allowed by RAW, not that i think it's a good idea to actually do it ingame.
If you're relying on the Monk's Belt for AC - as most characters who wear one do - you can hardly afford to lose it for 24 hours because one of your hourly rolls failed.
What little you get simply isn't worth it.

You're also unlikely to use unarmed strike for the simple reason that the belt does not give you IUS, so you'd have to get that separately.

Another example would be an item that requires turn undead to activate. That's fine. But just because you can activate an item that requires turn undead with UMD, it doesn't follow that you can then power the item with turning attempts. You are not able to use the class features that you are emulating.

The PHB example on emulating a class feature does exactly that though.

For example, Lidda finds a magic chalice that turns regular water
into holy water when a cleric or an experienced paladin channels
positive energy into it as if turning undead. She attempts to activate
the item by emulating the cleric’s undead turning ability. Her
effective cleric level is her check result minus 20. Since a cleric can
turn undead at 1st level, she needs a Use Magic Device check result
of 21 or higher to succeed.

The PHB comes right out and tells you "yes you can do this despite not having turn undead uses to expend".
You can't actually turn undead, but if an item requires spending a TU use it tells you straight out "yep, go ahead, DC 21".

You might argue that it's too powerful to allow at your table, but it's RAW.
Though i can't actually recall any items that would break the game with this either. The real power options tend to be feats, not items, and you can't UMD a feat.

[RandomPeasant]

To get these extra 15 levels higher, you are insisting that UMD grants the class feature.

No I'm not. The item grants the class feature. It grants it at the level you activate it with plus five. You're trying to assert that there is some separate step between "activate the item" and "get the benefit", but there is really clearly not. It is one sentence. The input is that you have the class feature at a specific level, and the output is that you get it at a higher level. If you can emulate anything at all, you can get a really big bonus out of it by emulating hard enough.

It's also worth noting that monk's belt doesn't work better for the monk but rather exactly the same. Both use cases provide for the 5 levels higher.

It does in fact work differently for the Monk. There is a "you are a Monk" clause and a "you are not a Monk" clause.

Why wouldn't you be able to UMD a staff of power? It works the same as any other staff. It has nothing to do with emulating a class feature.

I was responding to Darg, who has since edited his post. His assertion seems to be that if you don't need to UMD to activate one of an item's features, you can't UMD to activate any of them. I think the staff of power, among other things, suggests this is probably not how it works, and he doesn't have an adequate answer.

[Gemini476]

Some things of note:

1. UMD does not let you emulate a class, it lets you emulate a class feature.
   

   Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class[.]
   [...]
   Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. [Example of Lidda emulating the Turn Undead class feature, requiring DC21.]
   This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

2. The Monk's AC Bonus (Ex) (PHB p.40) is obviously a class feature (extraordinary, at that). I don't see a convincing argument that the Monk's Unarmed Strike (PHB p.41) is not - while it lacks a descriptor, that's kind of default for a lot of class features. Cf. Spells, Bonus Feats, Illiteracy. When in doubt, the PHB's Glossary (p.306) helps:
   

   class feature: Any special characteristic derived from a character class.

3. The Monk's Belt does not require a class feature, it requires a class:
   

   The wearer's AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. [...] If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus.

4. Note that the Monk's Belt assumes that Monks have those class features, and does not grant the class features a second time.

From this, IMHO we get five scenarios:

1. You are not a monk. You use the item normally. You get unarmed damage and AC as a fifth-level monk. (Notably this does not give you the other benefits of Unarmed Strike, like the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.) Your effective monk level is 5.
2. You are a monk. You use the item normally. Your unarmed damage and AC is treated as five levels higher. Your effective monk level is 6+.
3. You are not a monk. You use UMD to emulate Unarmed Strike, a second check to emulate AC Bonus, and a third check to emulate the Lawful alignment. The item buffs your emulated class features, but "[UMD] does not let you actually use the class features of another class". Your effective monk level is zero (0).
4. Alternatively: You are not a monk. You use UMD to emulate all those things above. The Monk's Belt does not care about class features, so it just sees that you're not a monk. Your effective monk level is 5.
5. You are a monk. You have swapped away your AC Bonus for Skarn Monk's Defensive Insight, and your Unarmed Strike for Skarn Monk's Spine Strike. The Monk's Belt sees that you are a monk, and therefore just buffs your effective level without granting you those class features (because it's assumed that you'd have them). You do not gain Unarmed Strike and AC Bonus, and the Belt does not buff your Spine Strike and Defensive Insight. Your effective monk level is zero (0).

If you're off the opposing opinion that a DC45 check gets you the +6 AC Bonus of a 30th-level Epic Monk, however, then these other items from the DMG might interest you:

• Holy Avenger: Gets stronger in the hands of Paladins, but more importantly give spell resistance 5 + Paladin level to the user and anyone adjacent and at-will Greater Dispel Magic (area dispel only) with a caster level of your Paladin level.
• Candle of Invocation:
  

  A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.

• Golem Manual: You get an increase to your caster level when creating golems of certain types. The manuals also include the feat, required spells, and required XP. You still need the GP, but if you get around that issue then you can craft a Greater Stone Golem at level 1 with a DC32 check.
• Phylactery of Undead Turning:
  

  This item is a boon to any character able to turn undead, allowing him to do so as if his class level were four levels higher than it actually is.

[bekeleven]

You absolutely can UMD a domain staff to pop out the spells in it, because the PHB explicitly allows you to emulate expending a class feature

This got lost, but could someone walk me through it?

As for the topic at hand: UMD allows you to

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20.

Ignoring every other issue listed in this thread, and there are plenty I have feelings about, UMB states right there in black and white that it allows you to emulate class features when activating magical items. While the DMG was written before the magic item block templates were standardized, it's incontrovertible that it would read thusly:

Belt, Monk's
Price: 13,000 gp
Body Slot: Waist
Caster Level: 10th
Aura: Moderate Transmutation
Activation: —
Weight: 1 lb

A monk's belt can't be activated so you can't roll UMD for it. Once again, this is not my only objection to the plan, but it certainly cuts it off at the start.

[Gemini476]

This got lost, but could someone walk me through it?

Emulating expending a class feature:

Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. For example, Lidda finds a magic chalice that turns regular water into holy water when a cleric or an experienced paladin channels positive energy into it as if turning undead. She attempts to activate the item by emulating the cleric’s undead turning ability. Her effective cleric level is her check result minus 20. Since a cleric can turn undead at 1st level, she needs a Use Magic Device check result of 21 or higher to succeed.

Emphasis mine. There's some extrapolation that needs to be made here regarding "does this imply that the magic chalice requires the class feature or actually expending a Turn Undead usage?", but that's honestly par for the course when you get this far into the weeds.

As far as I can tell there's no magic item in the DMG that actually cares about Turn Undead either way, so who knows what they intended.

EDIT: As for using this to cast spells from a domain staff, however, I'd need to double-check the wording on that item.

[Gruftzwerg]

Assuming 0 levels of monk class, where are the extra 15 levels higher coming from on addition to the five levels. Are you saying that the item is doing this?

If we sole assume 0 levels of monk class the benefit is that of a 5th lvl monk.

If you are referring to a UMD roll with a 15 as endresult, the Belt treats you as it would treat any other 15th lvl monk. It looks up the Unarmed Strike dmg and AC bonus of a 20th lvl monk and gives you these as benefits.

Let me remind you again: The Belt does not improve the monk abilities, nor does it give em to you (even if the AC bonus works like the monk's ability). It gives you 2 effects, one affecting your Unarmed Strike dmg, the other gives you a bonus to AC. So a real 15th lvl monk's unarmed strike and AC bonus class features would still be that of a 15th lvl monk. His Unarmed Strike dmg is that of a 20th lvl monk (not his class feature). And he gets another AC bonus that works the same as his monk's class feature, thus they don't stack and overlap. Since the Belt offers the better bonus, it overshadows the bonus from the class feature.

The belt is theoretically capable of giving you the same benefits of infinite levels. Because it scales with levels, there is no limit what the benefits of the belt can be. And for the same reason (scaling with levels) it can be abused with UMD.

Imho the problem here is that you are under a misconception what the following sentence does mechanically:

The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher.

1. It targets the stats "AC" and "Unarmed Damage" for its benefits, both not monk specific.
2. It asks for the "effective" level of your monk's Unarmed Strike and AC bonus abilities
3. It then gives you benefits from a theoretical monk with 5 more monk levels than you. The targets for the benefits are mentioned in 1.
While the belts asks for effective levels in a class feature, it does target em. It targets a plain stats that everybody has (Unarmed Damage) and gives a bonus (AC bonus) that anyone can use.

This got lost, but could someone walk me through it?

As for the topic at hand: UMD allows you to

Ignoring every other issue listed in this thread, and there are plenty I have feelings about, UMB states right there in black and white that it allows you to emulate class features when activating magical items. While the DMG was written before the magic item block templates were standardized, it's incontrovertible that it would read thusly:


A monk's belt can't be activated so you can't roll UMD for it. Once again, this is not my only objection to the plan, but it certainly cuts it off at the start.

I've addressed this already in an earlier post. We have general rules for 3.5 that enforce that items with ongoing effects are activated at the time when you donne em. The "Activation:"-line is sole handling any possible related actions needed to activate the item. It does not prevent an item from being activated.

To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. Some items, once donned, function constantly.

[sleepyphoenixx]

EDIT: As for using this to cast spells from a domain staff, however, I'd need to double-check the wording on that item.

That's a pretty firm no. You need to attune the staff as part of your daily spell preparation, similar to a runestaff. No attunement, no use.
You can't emulate being attuned and you can't emulate preparing divine spells either.

A divine caster could conceivably UMD one to save on spellslots though. At least i don't see why it wouldn't work, though i just glanced over the domain staff rules just now.
Or emulate having a spell on his class list, but that's a little iffy because they're not spell trigger items.
Emulating the "spells" ability of a cleric might work for that, but you're definitely in houserule territory with that imo.

I'm pretty sure the UMD rules were not made with rune- or domain staffs in mind.

[Darg]

I was responding to Darg, who has since edited his post. His assertion seems to be that if you don't need to UMD to activate one of an item's features, you can't UMD to activate any of them. I think the staff of power, among other things, suggests this is probably not how it works, and he doesn't have an adequate answer.

Yeah, not what I said at all. I said that if the item feature doesn't have a requirement posed by the UMD skill, THEN you can't use the skill. You don't need AC Bonus (Ex) and Unarmed strike to use the item to full capacity and therefore can't use the skill because there is nothing to fake. I mean, I guess a cleric could still UMD a wand of restoration, climb check for climbing a pebble as a giant, or some other uncommon sense ruling.

It does in fact work differently for the Monk. There is a "you are a Monk" clause and a "you are not a Monk" clause.

You argue this "is a monk"/"not a monk" idea when that invalidates a UMD check. You should be arguing "has AC Bonus (Ex) and Unarmed Strike" and "has not AC Bonus (Ex) and Unarmed Strike." Of course that is not what the item says so it's harder to back up, if not impossible.

1. Class feature/race/bla don't need to be requirements to make use of UMD. It is enough if any of those get more or other benefits.

Except you are missing the purpose of the skill. The context it is supposed to work under.

Use this skill to activate magic devices, including scrolls and wands, that you could not otherwise activate.

The SRD has many missing rules functions because of overzealous cropping for the OGL. It literally tells you that you use the skill for things you can't activate. It also doesn't provide a check DC for emulating a class.

3. The belt asks for your "effective monk lvl" in the monk's Unarmed Strike and AC bonus abilities. But it doesn't really improve or add to those. What it does is , that it directly targets the relevant stats. In case of Unarmed Strike the value gets exchanged and your AC gets a bonus to it.

4. While the Monk's Belt works better for those with "monk abilities", it doesn't improve those abilities. It gives you similar effects, as a monk effectively 5 lvls stronger, to stats that anybody can use. Unarmed Strike dmg and an AC bonus. You are having a hard time to realize this important difference. And as long as you ignore this important argument, we won't get to a conclusion here.

The belt doesn't give you missing levels. All it does is increase what levels you have by 5. It does not say that "your AC Bonus (Ex) and Unarmed Strike abilities are treated as 5 levels higher." It never asks for your levels in monk. It only allows you to treat yourself 5 levels higher.

That's a pretty firm no. You need to attune the staff as part of your daily spell preparation, similar to a runestaff. No attunement, no use.
You can't emulate being attuned and you can't emulate preparing divine spells either.

A divine caster could conceivably UMD one to save on spellslots though. At least i don't see why it wouldn't work, though i just glanced over the domain staff rules just now.
Or emulate having a spell on his class list, but that's a little iffy because they're not spell trigger items.
Emulating the "spells" ability of a cleric might work for that, but you're definitely in houserule territory with that imo.

I'm pretty sure the UMD rules were not made with rune- or domain staffs in mind.

Spell preparation is part of your spellcasting feature. What can't be emulated are the components and the spell slot use. The turn undead example in the PHB does not say that using the item would have normally expended a use of turn undead.

[redking]

I love this thread, because now we can come up with all the silly ways UMD can be used if you allow it to let you use a class feature (which it specifically prohibits).

Emulate the Artificer abilities Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su) or Metamagic Spell Completion (Su). Now you can apply unlimited metamagic feats to certain magical items. Yay.

[RandomPeasant]

The Monk's Belt does not require a class feature, it requires a class:

I'm not convinced that is the case. The item is pretty clearly talking about those specific features.

The item buffs your emulated class features, but "[UMD] does not let you actually use the class features of another class". Your effective monk level is zero (0).

I don't understand why people think UMD would need to be giving you the class features. The item gives you the class features. It can't be enhancing the class features you have, because the way you go from "Monk 10 unarmed strike" to "Monk 15 unarmed strike" isn't by getting some kind of additional marginal damage bonus, it's by getting an entirely new 2d6 unarmed strike that replaces your existing 1d10 unarmed strike.

I said that if the item feature doesn't have a requirement posed by the UMD skill, THEN you can't use the skill.

Then the hell do the quotes have to do with anything? If your position is "you can UMD individual features of an item that does not require UMD for all uses", you still have yet to supply a citation by which activating a monk's belt to get the benefits that go to someone who already has the class features is not emulate-able.

You don't need AC Bonus (Ex) and Unarmed strike to use the item to full capacity

Yes you do. The capacity of "give you 15th level Monk Unarmed Strike damage" and the capacity of "give you 5th level Monk Unarmed Strike damage" are different capacities. The idea that they are "the same" capacity of "give you +5 Monk levels to your Unarmed Strike damage" is both contrary to the text (as it describes them separately) and, as I noted earlier, simply not how class features work.

Of course that is not what the item says so it's harder to back up, if not impossible.

Well, what the item says is in the middle. It has a "not a monk" and a "has these class features" section, which I abbreviated to "monk"/"not monk". That setup is exactly what it would need to work with UMD, because it works with UMD.

The turn undead example in the PHB does not say that using the item would have normally expended a use of turn undead.

It says you channel positive energy into it as if turning undead. What could that possibly mean other than expending a use of turn undead? It's like looking at something that says "expends arcane energy into it as if casting a spell" and saying "clearly I can activate this as often as I want without expending spell slots".

Emulate the Artificer abilities Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su) or Metamagic Spell Completion (Su). Now you can apply unlimited metamagic feats to certain magical items. Yay.

If there were a magic item that said "you can use Metamagic Spell Trigger to activate this item for half the normal charge expenditure", you could in fact totally emulate Metamagic Spell Trigger to activate it with metamagic for half as many charges as Metamagic Spell Trigger requires. You would still need metamagic feats to do so. No one's position is "you can UMD a ring of wizardry to gain unarmed strike", so the idea that you can gain arbitrary class features through UMD is completely disconnected from the argument at hand.

[redking]

If there were a magic item that said "you can use Metamagic Spell Trigger to activate this item for half the normal charge expenditure", you could in fact totally emulate Metamagic Spell Trigger to activate it with metamagic for half as many charges as Metamagic Spell Trigger requires. You would still need metamagic feats to do so. No one's position is "you can UMD a ring of wizardry to gain unarmed strike", so the idea that you can gain arbitrary class features through UMD is completely disconnected from the argument at hand.

The bolded part is exactly what you are doing with monk's belt. The monk's belt merely increases some abilities to 5 levels higher, that's it. Following your own logic, a character should be able to UMD Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su) or Metamagic Spell Completion (Su) as an artificer, and gain the benefits.

[RandomPeasant]

The bolded part is exactly what you are doing with monk's belt. The monk's belt merely increases some abilities to 5 levels higher, that's it.

As I have said repeatedly, it does not work that way, because that is not a coherent way for it to work. When you go from being a 7th level Monk to an 8th level Monk, your unarmed strike does not get a damage bonus. It gets a new damage die that replaces its old damage die. That is the class feature the belt gives you when you put it on as a 3rd level Monk (or someone emulating the unarmed strike ability of a 3rd level Monk).

[redking]

As I have said repeatedly, it does not work that way, because that is not a coherent way for it to work. When you go from being a 7th level Monk to an 8th level Monk, your unarmed strike does not get a damage bonus. It gets a new damage die that replaces its old damage die. That is the class feature the belt gives you when you put it on as a 3rd level Monk (or someone emulating the unarmed strike ability of a 3rd level Monk).

Fun with knowstones. Emulate a class ability, cast spells as if you were a sorcerer. Unlimited spells. Or get an item keyed of uses of turn undead, and fire off your (emulated) unlimited uses of turn undead via UMD to fuel the item.

Where you are getting it wrong is that UMD just gets you in the door. If you present yourself as a "class features = monk 15" to the monk's belt, then the belt considers you that but then the benefits have to be applied, which is 0 + 5 levels higher.

In relation to staffs, which was the question in the OP, the same principle applies. If a staff has an activation requirement of caster level 15 (in addition to the spell trigger spell requirement), emulating a caster level higher than 15 doesn't mean that you actually have a caster level, and can use it to obtain a higher caster level from the staff. What happens is that emulating the caster level higher than 15 gives you access to the staff. If you got a UMD result of effective caster level 20, and the staff's caster level is set at 15, then you use the staff at caster level 15 (the default). You emulate a caster level. You don't have a caster level.

[Darg]

because that is not a coherent way for it to work

Which is exactly how we see your interpretation.

[RandomPeasant]

If you present yourself as a "class features = monk 15" to the monk's belt, then the belt considers you that but then the benefits have to be applied, which is 0 + 5 levels higher.

Here is the sentence we are arguing about: "The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher". There is no provision there for a separate "level activated at" and "level used to calculate benefits". There is one variable, and if UMD allows you to input a value of 15 for it, the output is 20, because the only operation that happens is "add five", and 20 is what you get when you add 5 to 15.

Which is exactly how we see your interpretation.

Yes, because you are wrong. Unarmed strike does not stack. It overlaps. The only way for you to get it at a higher level is to be granted it at that higher level. That means you can get it by emulating an input and receiving it as an output. Any assertion to the contrary is simply not consistent with how the rules work, and therefore definitionally incorrect.

[redking]

Any assertion to the contrary is simply not consistent with how the rules work, and therefore definitionally incorrect.

If a rogue with mega UMD got an item that requires turn undead to use, then he's good to go. If the item requires the rogue to expend uses of turn undead, the rogue is out of luck.

Likewise for smite. If an item requires smite to use, then then the UMD rogue can do that. But the rogue can't expend uses of smite. He doesn't have uses of smite and neither UMD or the item confers that ability.

Why? "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature".

When you emulate an ability score, same thing. It lets you use the scroll, for example, but not set DC via Intelligence or Charisma scores that you do not have. That's why you are told that if you have a high enough ability score to use the scroll, you don't need to make the check. Because there is no secondary effect of emulating an ability score. That's something you've conjured up all by yourself.

[RandomPeasant]

If a rogue with mega UMD got an item that requires turn undead to use, then he's good to go. If the item requires the rogue to expend uses of turn undead, the rogue is out of luck.

Except that the rules for UMD use "expend a use of turn undead" as an example of at thing you can do. Is that example just wrong? Were the designers lying to themselves when they asserted that a successful UMD check would allow you to use an item that activates when someone "channels positive energy into it as if turning undead"? The distinction you appear to be missing is that, while UMD does not allow you to simply go out and use Turn Undead or Unarmed Strike, it absolutely and explicitly does allow you to activate items that require those abilities as inputs. Like the hypothetical item that is made to go by expending turning, or the very real monk's belt that gives you unarmed strike at a larger level if you have unarmed strike at a smaller level.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Spell preparation is part of your spellcasting feature. What can't be emulated are the components and the spell slot use. The turn undead example in the PHB does not say that using the item would have normally expended a use of turn undead.

You can emulate the "spells" feature, but that doesn't attune a domain staff to you.
You have to attune it as part of spell preparation. You actually have to perform the act, because "is attuned" is not something UMD can emulate.

Emulating spellcasting does not actually give you spellcasting. You can't prepare spells no matter how high you roll on your UMD check, so you can't attune a domain staff.

[redking]

You can emulate the "spells" feature, but that doesn't attune a domain staff to you.
You have to attune it as part of spell preparation. You actually have to perform the act, because "is attuned" is not something UMD can emulate.

Emulating spellcasting does not actually give you spellcasting. You can't prepare spells no matter how high you roll on your UMD check, so you can't attune a domain staff.

You could do a dip in a spellcasting class and then benefit from unlimited spells via domain staff.

Domain staffs from Complete Champion (Pg 143).
"A domain staff of [Insert Domain Here] allows you to cast any of the following spells (each once per day) by expending a prepared divine spell or divine spell slot of the same level or higher."
And all cost 36,000 gp

Any objections along these lines are easily overcome.

Anyway, when it comes to DCs and caster level, the designers are usually very careful to point that out. If there was any intention to allow UMD to replace caster levels or produce an ability score for the purposes of spell DC, it would be in the description of the UMD skill. It is not. What you guys are doing is plucking stuff out of context and trying to make inferences in inapplicable contexts.

Spoiler: Long quote

Show

Except that the rules for UMD use "expend a use of turn undead" as an example of at thing you can do. Is that example just wrong? Were the designers lying to themselves when they asserted that a successful UMD check would allow you to use an item that activates when someone "channels positive energy into it as if turning undead"? The distinction you appear to be missing is that, while UMD does not allow you to simply go out and use Turn Undead or Unarmed Strike, it absolutely and explicitly does allow you to activate items that require those abilities as inputs. Like the hypothetical item that is made to go by expending turning, or the very real monk's belt that gives you unarmed strike at a larger level if you have unarmed strike at a smaller level.

Here it what the PHB says.

For example, Lidda finds a magic chalice that turns regular water into holy water when a cleric or an experienced paladin channels positive energy into it as if turning undead. She attempts to activate the item by emulating she cleric's undead turning ability. Her effective cleric level is her check result minus 20. Since a cleric can turn undead at 1st level, she needs a Use Magic Device check result of 21 or higher to succeed.

This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

The check here is to see if Lidda can pretend to have turn undead. That's what she is making the check for. The introductory fluff text is a huge fail and there is no indication that she can actually emulate a use of turn undead. The fluff text is contradicted right after in the next paragraph.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You could do a dip in a spellcasting class and then benefit from unlimited spells via domain staff.

Any objections along these lines are easily overcome.

Anyway, when it comes to DCs and caster level, the designers are usually very careful to point that out. If there was any intention to allow UMD to replace caster levels or produce an ability score for the purposes of spell DC, it would be in the description of the UMD skill. It is not. What you guys are doing is plucking stuff out of context and trying to make inferences in inapplicable contexts

The UMD skill was written before domain and runestaffs were a thing. Spell trigger and completion items explicitly use different UMD functions so they don't have this issue.
You basically have to houserule how UMD interacts with domain and runestaffs because the rules don't cover it.

The check here is to see if Lidda can pretend to have turn undead. That's what she is making the check for. The introductory fluff text is a huge fail and there is no indication that she can actually emulate a use of turn undead. The fluff text is contradicted right after in the next paragraph.

"Channeling Energy" means expending a turn undead use. If she can activate the item with UMD she has to emulate channeling energy by definition or the item wouldn't activate.