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[wefoij123]

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[InvisibleBison]

1) I'm pretty sure the answer is a. The Emulate Ability Score feature of UMD says that it can only be used in conjunction with a scroll, not a staff, so b is not possible. The description of staffs says quite clearly that the user of a staff always uses their own ability score, which rules out c (also, it's not clear that staffs have a minimum required ability score to craft them).

2) Again, I think the answer is a. Staffs are spell trigger items, and so would be activated by the Use A Wand feature of UMD, which doesn't say anything about allowing you to fake having a given caster level. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that rolling a 60 on your UMD check lets you emulate having a caster level of 40, actually. I don't see anything in the SRD's skill description that says you can do this. Is there some sourcebook that I'm not familiar with that expands the use of UMD this way?

[RandomPeasant]

1 is probably a, but there's a colorable argument that the scroll stuff is being used as an example. If you were to imagine a less abusive case, it seems pretty reasonable that you should be able to, for instance, UMD a magic rod that required you to have 17 CON to activate for whatever reason.

2 is absolutely b. The rules for staffs say someone activating one can "use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff". That would be a class feature you "use... to activate a magic item", which means it can be emulated, which means if you can cheese your UMD bonus real high you can blow dudes up with a staff of holy word.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Staffs are spell trigger items so they use the same UMD rules as wands.
Activating a spell trigger item with UMD is a flat DC 20 check, you don't get any extras for rolling higher (with the RC-added exception of CL checks, which you can use the "emulate a class ability" function for with any kind of item).

The rogue's save DC's from the staff use either the minimum (which is ability score = 10 + spell level) or his own ability modifier if it's higher.
He uses the CL of the staff since he doesn't have one of his own - for everything but caster level checks, which he can use his UMD check -20 for if it's higher.

Emulate Class Feature
...
You can use the skill in this way to make a caster level
check with an item. Your effective caster level is your check
result –20. See Caster Level Checks, page 31.

Casting a spell is not a caster level check, so you can't use that function to cast spells from a staff at higher CL.
It'd help when using a wand or staff to cast Dispel Magic though.

[Saintheart]

Staffs are spell trigger items so they use the same UMD rules as wands.
Activating a spell trigger item with UMD is a flat DC 20 check, you don't get any extras for rolling higher (with the RC-added exception of CL checks, which you can use the "emulate a class ability" function for with any kind of item).

The rogue's save DC's from the staff use either the minimum (which is ability score = 10 + spell level) or his own ability modifier if it's higher.
He uses the CL of the staff since he doesn't have one of his own - for everything but caster level checks, which he can use his UMD check -20 for if it's higher.

Casting a spell is not a caster level check, so you can't use that function to cast spells from a staff at higher CL.
It'd help when using a wand or staff to cast Dispel Magic though.

Yeah, but what OP's getting at is the SRD rule about staves...

Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.

Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC.

And thus the argument that UMD's capacity to allow you to emulate a given ability score therefore allows you to boost the saving throw. Not saying I've got any solution, but I get why the question comes up.

[sleepyphoenixx]

And thus the argument that UMD's capacity to allow you to emulate a given ability score therefore allows you to boost the saving throw. Not saying I've got any solution, but I get why the question comes up.

The UMD rules are pretty clear that you don't use the "emulate an ability score" function to activate a staff. They're spell trigger items.

Use a Wand

Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.

You don't emulate an ability score to activate a staff because activating a staff falls under the "use a wand" function of the skill, which is separate from emulating an ability score and a fixed DC 20 check.

[redking]

UMD and caster level cheese is something that comes up frequently, including with the monk's belt, which some people claim can make you the equivalent of a 20th level monk with a UMD check.

As for RAW, it's uncertain. I think we don't even have to ask what the RAI would be on that. We all know. At my table there is a gentleman's agreement not to try this kind of stuff. You should probably consult your DM before pulling this particular rabbit out of your hat.

[sleepyphoenixx]

UMD and caster level cheese is something that comes up frequently, including with the monk's belt, which some people claim can make you the equivalent of a 20th level monk with a UMD check.

As for RAW, it's uncertain. I think we don't even have to ask what the RAI would be on that. We all know. At my table there is a gentleman's agreement not to try this kind of stuff. You should probably consult your DM before pulling this particular rabbit out of your hat.

You can use the Monk's Belt to get the unarmed damage and AC of a 20th level monk by making a DC 35 UMD check once per hour. That's pretty unambiguously RAW.

Given that that only translates into 2d10 unarmed damage instead of 1d8 (~6.5 extra damage per hit) and a +3 to AC i wouldn't really call that OP.
Especially considering that it'll stop working for 24 hours if you roll a 1 or 2 and you can't take 10 on UMD normally.
So it has a 10% chance to fail and become unusable for 24 hours every hour.

If you're not lawful you'll need to make a separate DC 30 check for alignment 1/hour too, giving you another possible point of failure.
Reliably making DC 35 UMD checks every hour isn't exactly a trivial investment at the levels where that would be any kind of broken, you're allowed to get something out of it.

Considering that it also stops working if you wear any kind of armor UMDing a Monk's Belt is pretty much useless for anyone except an unarmed melee cleric or druid, who could really do something more useful with their build resources than blow most of them on making difficult UMD checks for an unreliable +3 AC and ~7 damage somewhere in the mid-high levels.
Considering that they probably rely on the Wis to AC part for their AC they're arguably even worse off than using the belt without UMD and the associated failure chance if they can't take 10 (which costs yet more build resources).

[Crake]

If you're not lawful you'll need to make a separate DC 30 check for alignment 1/hour too, giving you another possible point of failure.

Minor nitpick, but you don't need to be lawful to use a monk's belt, so there would be no requirement to emulate an alignment.

[RandomPeasant]

I think we don't even have to ask what the RAI would be on that. We all know.

I dunno. The examples in the PHB imply that you can emulate expending class features, not just having them. That's more powerful than typical uses of UMD. I don't doubt they didn't intend for the skill to be abusively powerful, but by that standard any imbalance is outside RAI (which, perhaps, is another reason that RAI is not a terribly valuable standard).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Minor nitpick, but you don't need to be lawful to use a monk's belt, so there would be no requirement to emulate an alignment.

Not to use it normally, but you need to emulate a lawful alignment to emulate being a 15th-level monk.

Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Monks must be lawful, so you can't emulate being a monk without also being or emulating a lawful alignment.

I dunno. The examples in the PHB imply that you can emulate expending class features, not just having them. That's more powerful than typical uses of UMD. I don't doubt they didn't intend for the skill to be abusively powerful, but by that standard any imbalance is outside RAI (which, perhaps, is another reason that RAI is not a terribly valuable standard).

This one?

For example, Lidda finds a magic chalice that turns regular water
into holy water when a cleric or an experienced paladin channels
positive energy into it as if turning undead. She attempts to activate
the item by emulating the cleric’s undead turning ability. Her
effective cleric level is her check result minus 20. Since a cleric can
turn undead at 1st level, she needs a Use Magic Device check result
of 21 or higher to succeed.

I can see that interpretation being a little nuts with stuff like runestaffs, domain staffs/icons and so on.
With how cheap a runestaff is you could easily double your spell slots per day just by investing a little in UMD at mid-levels.

[Crake]

Not to use it normally, but you need to emulate a lawful alignment to emulate being a 15th-level monk.



Monks must be lawful, so you can't emulate being a monk without also being or emulating a lawful alignment.

Oh nice, I didn't see that part. Makes me wonder though if you can emulate being an ex monk and ignore the lawful requirement, since monks don't lose most of their relevant class features when they become ex monks

[redking]

You can use the Monk's Belt to get the unarmed damage and AC of a 20th level monk by making a DC 35 UMD check once per hour. That's pretty unambiguously RAW.

I gave the example of the Monk's Belt because I consider it one of the most abusive examples of reading out of context.

Belt, Monk’s: This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, righteous might or transformation; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Even by your reading, you'd have to have at least one level of monk to accomplish what you wish.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I gave the example of the Monk's Belt because I consider it one of the most abusive examples of reading out of context.

Yeah, i got that.
I'm just wondering how a small damage bonus and 3 AC for a massive skill investment is abusive. Or how "using UMD to count as a monk for using an item" is reading out of context.

It's not like UMDing it turns you into a 20th level monk. It gives you the AC and unarmed damage of a level 20th monk, which as stated is ~6.5 damage and 3 AC over not UMDing it. Nothing else.
That's not exactly excessive considering how much investment it takes to reliably make those checks.

Even by your reading, you'd have to have at least one level of monk to accomplish what you wish.

If you use UMD to emulate being a monk of 15th level you obviously don't count as "not a monk" for the item you're UMDing.
You're either a monk or not a monk, you can't be both at the same time.

That's the entire point of making the UMD check, if you already have levels in monk you are a monk and don't need to UMD it to count as one.

[RandomPeasant]

Hard cases make bad law. Looking at the "most abusive" example is the wrong way to interpret the rules. Look at a central example and figure out how that works. If the rules as understood that way are broken, you can just change them. That's allowed! I will never understand why people insist on contorting their understanding of what the rules say to try to avoid admitting that the rules have problems when the game has Monk and Wizard in the same book.

This one?

That's the one. Though the real cheese is Knowstones, not Runestaffs, because those have no activation limit. It's unclear whether you can run out of uses of an ability you are emulating, as you are emulating it without having any uses in the first place, so there is a plausible case to be made that a Knowstone of dominate monster and a large enough UMD check allows you to use the spell as often as you'd like.

[AvatarVecna]

{Scrubbed .}

[redking]

You're either a monk or not a monk, you can't be both at the same time.

That's the entire point of making the UMD check, if you already have levels in monk you are a monk and don't need to UMD it to count as one.

The text I quoted did not ask whether you failed to emulate being a monk, just whether you were a monk or not. Since you are saying its not a monk, then it gets 5 levels of the specified monk abilities, nothing else. That's RAW.

As for UMD raw, you can only make a UMD check when a UMD check is needed to activate a device. Monk's Belt requires no activation.

[RandomPeasant]

As for UMD raw, you can only make a UMD check when a UMD check is needed to activate a device. Monk's Belt requires no activation.

Do you have a citation for that? Because no magic item is going to explicitly say "this is an activation that requires a UMD check" or "this isn't an activation and doesn't allow a UMD check". It would seem that the natural conclusion is that doing the thing that causes a magic item to start working on your behalf (in this case, putting on the belt) is "activating" it and allows a UMD check to be made if you so desire.

[redking]

Do you have a citation for that? Because no magic item is going to explicitly say "this is an activation that requires a UMD check" or "this isn't an activation and doesn't allow a UMD check". It would seem that the natural conclusion is that doing the thing that causes a magic item to start working on your behalf (in this case, putting on the belt) is "activating" it and allows a UMD check to be made if you so desire.

Its in UMD description. By the way, why not just create custom items and use the same kind of exploit used by people claiming that UMD can make you a 20th level monk? Why stop there?

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20.

You can only use UMD's "Emulate Class Feature" option if you otherwise can't activate the item

Monk's belt isn't such a case, anyone can activate it by wearing it and gaining the AC of a 5th level monk. If you don't need to use the class feature to activate the item, then you can't use this particular UMD option.

[RandomPeasant]

Its in UMD description. By the way, why not just create custom items and use the same kind of exploit used by people claiming that UMD can make you a 20th level monk? Why stop there?

I disagree with your interpretation of that text. "Sometimes you need to" includes not just specific magic items you need to activate with a class feature, but specific usages of magic items that require a class feature to activate. Otherwise we would be forced to conclude that, because a Staff of Power does not require any class features to activate the defensive luck bonuses it provides, you cannot use UMD to activate the spells held with in it. I find that conclusion to be absurd on face. As this applies to Monk's Belts, it means that you need no UMD check to activate the "not a monk" benefits, but can use one to activate the "is a monk" benefits.

[Darg]

Staff of power has different activation methods, specifically the smite and retributive strike abilities. The fact it has a continuous effect too isn't anything strange at that point.

What is absurd is the belief that something that has no class feature requirement should necessitate an unnecessary skill check. By this logic I could simply use a domain staff to gain the spellcasting ability of a cleric of the level specified by the UMD check. Being a monk is not a class feature. It's as simple as that. It'd be like saying that you can secure a grappling hook in air, baseline open locks within sight rather than reach, or heck climb air at this point. Sometimes you just gotta realize that the 20 lbs 100ft diameter toothpick ball cannot be carried with you though a 5ft diameter hole in the ground even with your 30 strength.

[RandomPeasant]

What is absurd is the belief that something that has no class feature requirement should necessitate an unnecessary skill check. By this logic I could simply use a domain staff to gain the spellcasting ability of a cleric of the level specified by the UMD check.

You absolutely can UMD a domain staff to pop out the spells in it, because the PHB explicitly allows you to emulate expending a class feature, and domain staffs operate by allowing you to expend spell slots to cast the spells in them. It doesn't give you full Cleric casting, but no one is arguing that the monk's belt gives you the full benefits of being a Monk. In any case, it's not correct to describe a monk's belt as having "no class feature requirement". It's not worded as "you get +5 to your effective Monk level" (with the implication being that adding that to a Monk level of 0 would get you 5th level Monk abilities). The "yes Monk" and "no Monk" effects are separate things, which suggests that you are in fact using your Monk abilities when you put it on to get an 8th level Monk's AC bonus as a 3rd level Monk, and therefore that there is something to be emulated.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The text I quoted did not ask whether you failed to emulate being a monk, just whether you were a monk or not. Since you are saying its not a monk, then it gets 5 levels of the specified monk abilities, nothing else. That's RAW.

Actually RAW the belt doesn't check if you're a monk, it just gives you the unarmed damage and AC bonus of someone with 5 more monk levels than you.

As for UMD raw, you can only make a UMD check when a UMD check is needed to activate a device. Monk's Belt requires no activation.

How do explain the UMD rules for emulating something in an ongoing fashion then?

You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.

If you could only make UMD checks for activating things you wouldn't need to emulate something in an ongoing manner.

Its in UMD description. By the way, why not just create custom items and use the same kind of exploit used by people claiming that UMD can make you a 20th level monk? Why stop there?

See above. Using UMD on continuous items is clearly an intended feature.

And the Monk's Belt still doesn't turn you into a monk, those get a little more than unarmed damage and Wis to AC.
Is that where the outrage at this "exploit" comes from? The (wrong) idea that it lets you emulate a whole class? Because it doesn't.
Emulating a class feature does not let you use that class feature, that's straight from the UMD rules.

Emulating a 15th level monk for the belt doesn't give you Flurry of Blows, it doesn't give you Improved Unarmed Strike or the speed enhancement or bonus feats or any of the other monk abilities.
It gives you some damage and 3 AC for a massive skill investment and a hourly failure chance per quality you emulate. Which will be 2-3 for the Monk's Belt alone.

You need to emulate having a 15th level monks unarmed strike feature to get the 2d10 damage, the AC bonus feature to get the +3 AC and a lawful alignment if you aren't lawful yourself.
Then you need to check once per hour per quality. If you roll a 1 on any one of those checks the item ceases to function for 24 hours.

Being a monk is not a class feature.

That should be obvious. A monks unarmed strike and AC bonus however are.
You use UMD to emulate having the unarmed strike feature of a 15th level monk. The Monk's Belt gives you the unarmed strike damage of a monk 5 levels higher, which is 2d10.
You use UMD to emulate having the AC bonus feature of a 15th level monk. The Monk's Belt gives you the AC bonus of a monk 5 levels higher, which is +3 AC.

[Darg]

That should be obvious. A monks unarmed strike and AC bonus however are.
You use UMD to emulate having the unarmed strike feature of a 15th level monk. The Monk's Belt gives you the unarmed strike damage of a monk 5 levels higher, which is 2d10.
You use UMD to emulate having the AC bonus feature of a 15th level monk. The Monk's Belt gives you the AC bonus of a monk 5 levels higher, which is +3 AC.

Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item.

Belt, Monk’s: This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.

I really wish people would point out where in the description that it requires a class feature to activate. All I see is requiring a class, requiring a feat, or requiring not being a specific class. The belt doesn't even confer the class feature that it improves. There is literally no connection at all to a class feature to use the item. Seriously, no one has yet to connect the dots where the belt requires Monk AC and monk unarmed damage to function for any part of the benefit. Even a level 0 monk (dead) can technically benefit from the belt more believably than UMD being used to pretend that emulate class feature means emulate class.

Please point out where the item in question needs the unarmed damage feature or the AC bonus feature of a monk to use. A steadfast skarn monk is fully capable of activating the item even without those features.

You absolutely can UMD a domain staff to pop out the spells in it, because the PHB explicitly allows you to emulate expending a class feature, and domain staffs operate by allowing you to expend spell slots to cast the spells in them. It doesn't give you full Cleric casting, but no one is arguing that the monk's belt gives you the full benefits of being a Monk. In any case, it's not correct to describe a monk's belt as having "no class feature requirement". It's not worded as "you get +5 to your effective Monk level" (with the implication being that adding that to a Monk level of 0 would get you 5th level Monk abilities). The "yes Monk" and "no Monk" effects are separate things, which suggests that you are in fact using your Monk abilities when you put it on to get an 8th level Monk's AC bonus as a 3rd level Monk, and therefore that there is something to be emulated.

It says your AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk 5 levels higher. "Treated" means you don't necessarily have to have the features in question. Remove the part about not being a monk and the belt literally functions in the exact same way.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I really wish people would point out where in the description that it requires a class feature to activate. All I see is requiring a class, requiring a feat, or requiring not being a specific class. The belt doesn't even confer the class feature that it improves. There is literally no connection at all to a class feature to use the item. Seriously, no one has yet to connect the dots where the belt requires Monk AC and monk unarmed damage to function for any part of the benefit. Even a level 0 monk (dead) can technically benefit from the belt more believably than UMD being used to pretend that emulate class feature means emulate class.

Please point out where the item in question needs the unarmed damage feature or the AC bonus feature of a monk to use. A steadfast skarn monk is fully capable of activating the item even without those features.

Please point out where the UMD skill restricts you to emulating to meet requirements and forbids doing it to gain a benefit as if you were a member of a different class.

Because according to this:

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

if i want to use my UMD skill to use the Monk's Belt as if i had the unarmed strike class feature of a 15th level monk that's a valid application of the UMD function to emulate a class feature.

Emulating a class feature is DC = level + 20 so i make a DC 35 UMD check. Because monks are lawful i must also emulate a lawful alignment if i don't have it (DC 30). Let's assume i make both.
As far as magic items are concerned - including the Monk's Belt - i now have the unarmed strike class feature of a 15th level monk.

This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher.

Since the Monk's Belt thinks i have the unarmed strike feature of a 15th level monk (which includes the unarmed damage) it gives me the unarmed damage of a monk 5 levels higher, or in other words the 2d10 unarmed damage of a 20th level monk.
As long as i want to keep this benefit i have to make a DC 35 UMD check to keep emulating the class feature and a DC 30 UMD check to keep emulating the lawful alignment 1/hour.

If i want to get the AC bonus of a 20th level monk too instead of that of a 5th level monk i'd have to make another DC 35 UMD check to emulate having the AC bonus class feature of a 15 level monk.

[redking]

Since the Monk's Belt thinks i have the unarmed strike feature of a 15th level monk (which includes the unarmed damage) it gives me the unarmed damage of a monk 5 levels higher, or in other words the 2d10 unarmed damage of a 20th level monk.

How is the monk's belt, which was enchanted to confer 5 levels of abilities, going to give you 15 extra levels on top of that? An actual monk that is 15th level can do stuff like a 20th level monk because they have 15 levels on top of that granted by the belt. The belt grants 5 levels, not 20.

What would be even better for you would be a lesser monk's belt. Provides only 1 level of monk abilities and is cheaper to craft. But if you UMD it , you would get the full 20 levels of abilities. Right?

The RAW is that the belt grants 5 levels of monk abilities. Not 10. Not 6. Not 20.

How about a nightstick?

Nightstick
This black rod carved of darkly stained wood is inset with religious symbols of various dieties. Anyone who possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains four more uses of the ability per day.

Moderate necromancy; CL 10th; Craft Rod, Extra Turning, class ability to turn or rebuke undead; Price 7,500gp.

UMD this badboy to gain the turn or rebuke abilities of a 20th level cleric. Just UMD to emulate a 20th cleric, and get all the class features from the magical item, which is somehow able to confer abilities well beyond the scope of its construction.

[sleepyphoenixx]

How is the monk's belt, which was enchanted to confer 5 levels of abilities, going to give you 15 extra levels on top of that? An actual monk that is 15th level can do stuff like a 20th level monk because they have 15 levels on top of that granted by the belt. The belt grants 5 levels, not 20.

What would be even better for you would be a lesser monk's belt. Provides only 1 level of monk abilities and is cheaper to craft. But if you UMD it , you would get the full 20 levels of abilities. Right?

The RAW is that the belt grants 5 levels of monk abilities. Not 10. Not 6. Not 20.

The RAW is that it grants you the unarmed damage of a monk 5 levels higher. As i just quoted.
It still doesn't turn you into a monk. It doesn't give you any other monk abilities. It gives you the unarmed damage of a monk, nothing else.

How about a nightstick?



UMD this badboy to gain the turn or rebuke abilities of a 20th level cleric. Just UMD to emulate a 20th cleric, and get all the class features from the magical item, which is somehow able to confer abilities well beyond the scope of its construction.

Right, because activating a nightstick as a cleric gives you Turn Undead if you don't have it. Oh wait it doesn't.
As was already quoted multiple times UMD does not give you the ability to use class features, just activate items as if you had them.

UMDing a Monk's Belt doesn't give you the Unarmed Strike class feature.
You don't get Improved Unarmed Strike, you don't get the ability to attack with any part of your body, you don't deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks and your unarmed strike does not count as a manufactured and natural weapon.
All that UMD does is let you use the Monk's Belt as if you had it, and if someone with the unarmed strike feature of a 15th level monk uses a Monk's Belt their unarmed damage is treated as that of a monk 5 levels higher.

So UMDing a nightstick would give you 4 turn undead uses you can't do anything with because you don't have the Turn Undead ability.

What you could do however is emulate the Turn Undead class feature to activate an item that requires Turn Undead uses to fuel, like a Divine Wrath weapon for example.
That use is in fact the very example the PHB uses so it's pretty hard to argue against it being RAW or RAI.

[Gruftzwerg]

How is the monk's belt, which was enchanted to confer 5 levels of abilities, going to give you 15 extra levels on top of that? An actual monk that is 15th level can do stuff like a 20th level monk because they have 15 levels on top of that granted by the belt. The belt grants 5 levels, not 20.

What would be even better for you would be a lesser monk's belt. Provides only 1 level of monk abilities and is cheaper to craft. But if you UMD it , you would get the full 20 levels of abilities. Right?

The RAW is that the belt grants 5 levels of monk abilities. Not 10. Not 6. Not 20.

How about a nightstick?



UMD this badboy to gain the turn or rebuke abilities of a 20th level cleric. Just UMD to emulate a 20th cleric, and get all the class features from the magical item, which is somehow able to confer abilities well beyond the scope of its construction.

I don't get where you see the problem here?

1) "The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher."
The game/DM asks for (effective*) monk levels of your unarmed strike damage and AC, and sets your effective lvl for these 5 lvls higher. (* = since other sources exist that claim to "effectively" stack with your monk levels for this purpose)

2) UMD allows you to fake class abilities by rolling to calculate the effective class lvls emulated. As other said, you get your roll result as "effective monk lvls for dmg and AC", the belt adds 5 more "effective monk lvls" and gives you the values of that lvl. Monk unarmed strike dmg and AC don't have a linear progression for each lvl and is a step based progression. This is the reason why this is so effective in the chase of the Monk's Belt.

3) Nightsticks don't work the same way
Because neither UMD nor Nightsticks give you the ability to turn undead. The Monk's Belt gives you new values for stats that you already have (Unarmed Strike dmg & Armor Class). But the Nightsticks (even with UMD) can't increase a stat that you don't already have.

4) Monk's Tattoo works too
Monk's Tattoo also gives your the bonus to unarmored movementspeed (again a stat that everybody has) but in exchange only gives you "+4 effective levels of monk".

5) Wanna have Wild Shape? UMD a Wild Shape amulet!
This one is a bit more cheesy.

...
It allows a druid to use her wild shape ability as if she were four levels higher. If she has not yet acquired that ability, the amulet allow her the wild shape ability of a 5th-level druid.
...

When first activating the item with UMD, the higher emulated lvl doesn't help us. Since we still lack the ability, we need to rely on the fallback option to count as a 5th lvl druid. But we still make the UMD roll anyway, because it will become later of importance.
Now remember that for UMD-ing an item with ongoing effects the roll has to be resumed every hour to keep it working.
1 hour later, you do your second UMD roll and can profit from it now, since now you have Wild Shape as ability/stat to legally improve.
As said, very cheesy.

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If you didn't know, UMD breaks the game. This is how a fighter or monk with UMD can compete with T1/T2 builds in the same game and not feel totally useless and can even shine here and there. But take this kind of optimization with care, since it can be still way to much for some tables. Be aware of that pls! ;)
And we haven't even talked about craftlocks, but I don't want to derail the thread to much.

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Regarding Staffs, UMD & RAW...

The question here is do we treat this:

Emulate an Ability Score

To cast a spell from a scroll, you need

Is this the sole option given or just the most common example. The general definition at the start doesn't imply any restrictions when each type of roll can be used and Rules Compendium adds to this by providing additional examples for effective caster level as example (which wasn't in the original text).


From a sole textual point it seems RAW says NO, but from the text structure we could argue maybe for a YES. And RAI (RC showing additional example situation where those rolls may apply) implies that it should get YES too.

Dunno if this helps or makes it even worse^^

[sleepyphoenixx]

1 hour later, you do your second UMD roll and can profit from it now, since now you have Wild Shape as ability/stat to legally improve.
As said, very cheesy.

It also doesn't work. The amulet granting wild shape is conditional on you not having it. If you emulate having a wild shape level you don't get that benefit any more.

You can't count as having WS and not having WS at the same time even with UMD so you can only get either benefit, not both at once.

Combining it with a Druid's Vestment won't help either since you don't actually have a WS ability to add uses to, the item just thinks you do. Same thing as with Nightsticks basically.
So you can't UMD cheese your way into high-level wild shaping.

[Gruftzwerg]

It also doesn't work. The amulet granting wild shape is conditional on you not having it. If you emulate having a wild shape level you don't get that benefit any more.

You can't count as having WS and not having WS at the same time even with UMD so you can only get either benefit, not both at once.

Combining it with a Druid's Vestment won't help either since you don't actually have a WS ability to add uses to, the item just thinks you do. Same thing as with Nightsticks basically.
So you can't UMD cheese your way into high-level wild shaping.

Imho the item is poorly written, open for abuse..^^

The amulet has 2 (!) ongoing effects:

1. druids are treated 4 lvls higher for their Wild Shape abiltiy

2. if the druid (!) has not acquired the ability yet, he gets the ability as a 5th lvl druid.
(notice that the item doesn't give Wild Shape to any non-duids by default!!!)

Further, there is no indicator that the 1st effect doesn't stack with the 2nd. Thus imho both effects are ongoing. And since both effects are ongoing, the order of the effects becomes irrelevant. You get the ability and the effective increase in lvl. Even any (non-UMD) druid using this gets a minimum effective Wild Shape lvl of 9 out of it by a strick RAW reading.