deleted

[redking]

Why would you need to make multiple checks? If you have to meet two different UMD check DCs, say DC 20 to activate an item and the DC 35 being the gatekept power, if your UMD check is 30 then you activate the item, but fail to gain use of the gatekept power. If your UMD check was 35 or over, you activate the item and get to make use of the gatekept power. Anything below 20 DC and you can't use the item at all.

Except, you know, for the example that says that you can emulate expending uses of class features. You're ignoring that one pretty hard. You are also inferring that ability scores can be emulated in contexts other than scrolls, just not in ways you don't like.

Please recall the context of emulating an ability score for scrolls. It's to use the scroll, not to assign a DC based on an ability score bonus. You don't get the ability score. You just emulate an ability score to use the item and get in the front door, not gain a pseudo ability score that is actually used.

You don't gain any abilities, even to use in conjunction with an item. All you can do is be passively considered by the item to be meeting some requirement. Thus, runestaves cannot be fuelled by UMD. Nor can Cadaceus Braces.

When you make a UMD check, it's not a caster level check even. It's a UMD check of which the DC is partially set by the item you are trying to activate (if relevant). It doesn't say in UMD that you get to use an ability score in conjunction with an item so you don't.

[RandomPeasant]

Why would you need to make multiple checks? If you have to meet two different UMD check DCs, say DC 20 to activate an item and the DC 35 being the gatekept power, if your UMD check is 30 then you activate the item, but fail to gain use of the gatekept power.

That does run afowl of the "a" stuff. You can't emulate multiple requirements with a single check. That doesn't work.

You don't gain any abilities, even to use in conjunction with an item. All you can do is be passively considered by the item to be meeting some requirement. Thus, runestaves cannot be fuelled by UMD. Nor can Cadaceus Braces.

Except, you know, for the example that explicitly says you can do that.

When you make a UMD check, it's not a caster level check even. It's a UMD check of which the DC is partially set by the item you are trying to activate (if relevant). It doesn't say in UMD that you get to use an ability score in conjunction with an item so you don't.

It doesn't say that in UMD. But it sure does say that for staves. There is, as far as I can tell, no distinction between "ability score with which the staff is activated" and "ability score the staff uses for its DCs" (certainly this is true for caster levels). Neither you nor Darg has presented any text that suggests anything to the contrary.

[Nelfin]

@Gruftzwerg

I am also under the impression, for the Monk's belt, that you are thinking you have 15 emulated levels of Monk floating around. That may be also what is confusing. That is not the case. [Emulate a class feature] only says [Activate the Monk's belt] as if [you were a 15 level Monk]. So just perform the activation with 15 level of Monk.

[Darg]

You are once again conflating what can be done with a single check with what can be done with multiple checks.

There is no conflation whatsoever. The rules are permissive. You need permission to do something other than what it tells you. Making multiple incompatible checks is not given permission.

I don't understand how that's responsive. The question here isn't "what action type is it", the question is "how many times can you take the action". Sleight of Hand says you can hide "a small object". Since "a" apparently means "only one", it is clearly the case that once you have hidden one small object, you cannot use Sleight of Hand to hide any further small objects. It doesn't matter whether the hiding takes a standard action or a free action or ten minutes or no action at all. At least, not by your meaning of "a".

"how many times can you take the action" is not what you asked at all. You said, 'Are we to assume that because Sleight of Hand allows you to hide "a small object", it is only possible to have one hidden object on your person at a time? Or, perhaps, does "a" refer to a single instance of a roll, and you can hide as many small items as you'd like, with separate rolls to find each?' There is no mention of "action" in your question. You can hide as many items as you want, they don't require a check. Why would any one be able to spot what you have in a pocket or pouch? What requires a check is when you try to hide something from a search or an observant gaze. That requires a standard action which is only a single check for one object as per the skill.

You again seem to be arguing with something no one believes. No, you can't UMD something at a CL of 50 at then cast a CL 50 fireball out of your personal spell slots. What that has to do with emulating a class feature when activating an item for the purpose of activating that item I can't imagine.

If the item uses YOUR caster level, you don't just get to use the caster level of the class you are emulating. The item uses YOUR caster level. You don't actually use the caster level of the class you are emulating. "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class." Why in the world would the item use the caster level of something that isn't YOURS if it wants YOUR caster level and you can't use the feature you are emulating? A lot of people believe this, multiple in this thread, and so your statement is false.

So "Emulate an Alignment" is a "separate task", but "Emulate a Class Feature" is not? Can you show me any textual basis at all for that?

Emulating a class feature IS a separate activation task. You can't just tack on emulating a class feature when trying to activate spell trigger items. I'd really like an example of a real item that has a separate requirements for a single activation type. I've brought real items into the discussion already that support my side of the argument, the burden is yours to find one to evidence YOUR argument.

Why would you need to? You make multiple checks as part of the action, just as you can use both Power Attack and mountain hammer as part of the same action.

You make one check. You only make multiple checks if the task you are performing gives you permission to do so. When using a staff you only make one check

Yes, I understand that's the epicycle you applied to fix the way that your "you can only use UMD if it is mandatory" created bad results with staves of power. My question is why it is better to make that unsupported declaration and add an epicycle as a point fix than to simply not do that and enjoy rules that work without any additional fiddling.

I don't understand your use of epicycle in this context. Is there an understanding beyond the dictionary definition?

I also don't understand how only using UMD when you can't use an item creates bad results with staves of power. Can you explain? There are 0 requirements for anything the item does except for the spell trigger aspect which only requires a single "Use a Wand" task roll. What fiddling exists in your mind?

Those custom items are part of the rules. If your theory of the rules falls apart on them, it is a bad theory of the rules. Excluding new data because it makes you wrong doesn't make you right. In fact, it forfeits any possibility for you to be right.

You're arguments are full of fallacious arguments that I have to refute before I can even get to the real arguments. Why would that make you more right than I? I can make a custom wand that requires sneak attack, a familiar, wild shape, a Con score of 20, and chaotic evil alignment. That does nothing to actually prove that UMD gives you permission to make 6 checks to use the wand. If one tries to make such an appeal to ignorance it only hurts their argument further. You have yet to actually bring any evidence to support your argument. RAW states that you make one check each time you activate a magic device. Show me where the rules contradict this because, "You make A Use Magic Device check EACH time you activate a device," is pretty straight forward.

Except, you know, for the example that explicitly says you can do that.

Break down that example grammatically and it doesn't actually say what you think it does. I've already done it multiple times in this thread already. If one wants to ignore proper grammatical understanding, feel free. It doesn't make one right.

[RandomPeasant]

You need permission to do something other than what it tells you. Making multiple incompatible checks is not given permission.

Where does it say that "Emulate a Class Feature" and "Activate a Wand" are "incompatible"? It says they are different things, but there's no indication they are incompatible. Much in the same way that Power Attack and mountain hammer being different things does not make them incompatible.

"how many times can you take the action" is not what you asked at all.

I mean, yes, I did not literally use the word "action", but it is reasonable to describe "you can do this multiple times" as being about "how many times can you take the action". But we still haven't resolved the basic question. How is it that "a" can mean "only one" when it refers to UMD checks made at a single time, but not items that you have hidden on your person at a single time?

If the item uses YOUR caster level, you don't just get to use the caster level of the class you are emulating.

The item offers a benefit (producing the spell effect at a higher CL) if you have a class feature (a particular CL). If you can't emulate that, what could you possibly emulate? If "do a thing because you have a class feature" isn't valid for emulation and "do a thing by expending a class feature" isn't valid for emulation, what the hell is.

A lot of people believe this, multiple in this thread, and so your statement is false.

It's interesting that you're about to complain about me making you refute "fallacious arguments" when this is a textbook argument ad populum.

I'd really like an example of a real item that has a separate requirements for a single activation type.

Tell me, do you think I can activate a scroll of blockade with UMD? This is, as far as I am aware, an item that is never explicitly listed in any rulebook as existing. Yet it is one that can demonstrably be created, and I think we can both agree you can UMD it. So perhaps your objection to commenting on items that can be legally created in this case has less to do with abstract principle and more with an understanding that your position is obviously not tenable if you are forced to acknowledge that, no, you don't think someone can UMD a wand that requires them to be a Dwarf.

You make one check. You only make multiple checks if the task you are performing gives you permission to do so. When using a staff you only make one check

Again, no. To use a staff you make one check. That check is made as part of the activation of the staff, and if you want or need to do some other UMD task when activating the staff you can do so as well by the simple expedient of making another check.

I don't understand your use of epicycle in this context.

So it used to be that people had this idea that was wrong: they thought everything revolved around the earth. This is, of course, not the case. Things (mostly, at the scale of the solar system) revolve around the sun. So there was stuff that empirically happened that didn't make sense if you assumed everything revolved around the earth (I believe the specific example is that stuff appeared to reverse relative direction, but don't quote me). Rather than re-assessing their theory, people added epicycles, little circles that stuff moved on in addition to their orbits so that the data fit the theory. So "epicycle" in the more general context means something that is added to a flawed theory as an ad hoc fix to avoid replacing it with a more parsimonious theory.

In this case, you had a theory that was wrong: you can only use UMD to activate an item if you can't use that item otherwise. And that sort of works if you're thinking about scrolls and wands and most staves. But, of course, anyone can use a staff of power. It's a magic weapon in addition to a staff, and you can hit people with it whether or not you can get it to pop out any spells. So under your theory, no one can UMD a staff of power, because they can use the "hitting people" function. So you added this epicycle, where instead of it being about items, it's about functions. So you can still only UMD a function if you need to, but if it happens that there's another function that doesn't require UMD that's fine. This is, of course, a much more complicated interpretation than the correct one of "you can use UMD to activate an item whenever you activate an item, even if you don't strictly need to".

I can make a custom wand that requires sneak attack, a familiar, wild shape, a Con score of 20, and chaotic evil alignment. That does nothing to actually prove that UMD gives you permission to make 6 checks to use the wand.

So you do believe that someone who adds a "must be Good" requirement to their staves thereby prevents anyone from activating them with UMD? That doesn't strike you as the sort of dysfunctional result we should avoid in our interpretation of the rules?

You have yet to actually bring any evidence to support your argument.

I don't need evidence. I have the rules. And the rules say that when you want to activate a magic item, you can use UMD to do so. They say that when you activate a staff, it uses the CL you activate it with (if that's better than it's CL). They say that CL is a class feature. They say that you can emulate class features. And that all voltrons together into me being right and you being wrong.

[Gruftzwerg]

@Gruftzwerg

OK, I'll take your words for granted and will take the blue part of your post as lighting the mood. Actually, I don't really understand what is so difficult to understand in my point of view. I'll try to be the most explicit possible.
....

First, let me say that I've read your entire post (and the other after that) to ensure I don't miss any important argument. Some parts literary more than a dozen times.

Imho I got how you "feel/think" about this topic and "your approach" to interpret it.
But where I do have a problem is "how you are getting to your interpretation".

Imho (!), you are assuming "hidden rules" where the item makes a "hidden check" of your stats. Your interpretation relies on hidden things that are not presented by the rules to function.

While my approach doesn't need any hidden rules or steps to get a functional interpretation.

Have a look at the Magic Item Basics again pls:

Most importantly the "Using Items" rule.

Using Items

To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. Some items, once donned, function constantly. In most cases, using an item requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. By contrast, spell completion items are treated like spells in combat and do provoke attacks of opportunity.

Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.

The four ways to activate magic items are described below.

...
..

IMHO...

1: "Using Items" = "Using an Item's Effect"

Because there are no separate rules for a "Magic Item's Effect". You can look up the entire page or any book, errata or FAQ or whatsoever. This "mechanical step" is part of "Using Items".



2: "Activation" can provide the item with stats

This is the sole point described by the rules where you can provide stats to the item by RAW.
Note that for "continuously working items" UMD is more specific and adds the rule to repeat this process as UMD-user once every hour!

Unless you can show me where the rules for "a magic items effect" are, that separates it from "Using Item" (and therefore "Activation"), you have to assume that the stats provided at the point of activation are the values used for the items effect.

Sorry to say this, but you are implying rules that are simply not there. There is no separate step other than "Activation" to "use" the effect of a magical item.

I hope that you now maybe understand why I see your approach as illegal by RAW. The rules as presented don't allow such an interpretation. Even if it also leads to a functional interpretation, it is not supported by RAW.

It (your interpretation) could be used as a functional houserule to nerf UMD into the ground. If you want that, this would definitively be an option. But it would be a houserule and not RAW imho.

Dunno if I have missed any rule, but if you can provide any textual evidence that supports your "interpretation approach" somehow, pls point me to it. I don't claim that I'm aware of every text passage at any time. I mean, with the 3.5 rules being scattered all over the place (phb, dmg, srd, errata, rc...) we all share the same struggle here I guess...

[redking]

Nowhere does it say you get DCs based on an emulated ability score. I'm still waiting for quote that says you do instead of extrapolation and deduction.

[Gruftzwerg]

Nowhere does it say you get DCs based on an emulated ability score. I'm still waiting for quote that says you do instead of extrapolation and deduction.

Check

You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

I've shown in my last post how "using a magic item" is defined and that "Activation" is the sole moment where stats are provided to the item (see "Using Items" from the "Magic Item Basics").
"Using a magic item" includes its effect. Since there is no other separate "magic item effect" section, this is the sole option to have functional magic items (to include the effect into the "use of a magic item").
These are the mechanics presented by RAW.

UMD makes clear that you can use (the effect of) an item as if you had "X".

I've provided you the rules my argumentation is based on. On which parts of the rules is your interpretation based on. I would like to know the exact quotes so that I can be either convinced or address your argument. Where does it say that the values you provided are ignored by the items effect. As far as I see it, I have provides quotes that say the exact opposite of your statement.

[redking]

I've provided you the rules my argumentation is based on. On which parts of the rules is your interpretation based on. I would like to know the exact quotes so that I can be either convinced or address your argument. Where does it say that the values you provided are ignored by the items effect. As far as I see it, I have provides quotes that say the exact opposite of your statement.

You say it's RAW, but you are presenting inference and deduction.

Emulate an Ability Score
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.

And -

Use a Scroll
If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

From this, you make an inference that you would actually be able to use the ability score that you emulate to meet the requirements to activate the item. But note under the scenarios outlined in UMD, you cannot receive any benefits like setting DCs based on an emulated ability score. The text doesn't even hint that you can do that.

If you can emulate an ability score in an item that has that as a requirement, you can activate the item. But the emulated ability score isn't a real ability score - it only let's you activate the item as if you met the requirements.

[Darg]

It's interesting that you're about to complain about me making you refute "fallacious arguments" when this is a textbook argument ad populum.

*face meet palm*

If you can't even see how your claim was false, then we have nothing further to discuss.

[Gruftzwerg]

You say it's RAW, but you are presenting inference and deduction.



And -



From this, you make an inference that you would actually be able to use the ability score that you emulate to meet the requirements to activate the item. But note under the scenarios outlined in UMD, you cannot receive any benefits like setting DCs based on an emulated ability score. The text doesn't even hint that you can do that.

If you can emulate an ability score in an item that has that as a requirement, you can activate the item. But the emulated ability score isn't a real ability score - it only let's you activate the item as if you met the requirements.

Sorry but as it seems you didn't get what I did present. Its as always the Primary Source Rule which dictates the hierarchy between the rules. Let us make a lil breakdown.

Check

You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.

You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below.

As said multiple times, "Check" defines already what UMD does:
It lets you "use magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment".

"Use (Magic) Item" is defined:

Using Items

To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. ...

Thus "using a magic item" means "activating" it (providing the requirements if any and paying the action cost if any) to get its beneficial effect.

Which further means that UMD lets you "use/activate" magic items "as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment...".

Here the general UMD rule basically said that you can fake the requirements to "activate" the effect of a magic item.

You are pointing to the examples. All those options have been mentioned in "Check's table". And "Check" itself already did give me the permission to use UMD to fake the activation which leads to the items effect.
An example may not add rules. It sole presents one option that fits the rules.


To give you an example:

If I make the statement: "Pick a bonus feat, like Power Attack.".
Does this limit you to Fighter Bonus Feats because Power Attack is one?
It's just a single random fitting example. You may not draw additional restrictions from that example that are not presented by the original rule.

But that is what you are doing by drawing additional restrictions from the examples presented in UMD.


The rules don't say skip the requirements and activate the item. The rules give you the permission to emulate stuff to activate an item (to get its effect).

[redking]

The rules don't say skip the requirements and activate the item. The rules give you the permission to emulate stuff to activate an item (to get its effect).

The entire point of the UMD check is to meet activation requirements for which you otherwise do not meet the prerequisites. You don't skip anything. You make a UMD check, the Difficulty Class (DC) of which determined by the task at hand.

If you successfully pass the check for the UMD task at hand, you may activate the item. It doesn't matter if you pass the check by 1 or 100. The outcome of activation is exactly the same.

What you are saying is that there is a difference in the outcome of activation based on how well you passed the check, in certain circumstances, such as the monk's belt or staffs. This isn't the case and there is nothing in UMD that says it is.

[Thane of Fife]

As said multiple times, "Check" defines already what UMD does:
It lets you "use magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment".

...

You are pointing to the examples. All those options have been mentioned in "Check's table". And "Check" itself already did give me the permission to use UMD to fake the activation which leads to the items effect.
An example may not add rules. It sole presents one option that fits the rules.

If that's how you want to read it, doesn't that mean you can't emulate ability scores at all? Your first quote there does not mention ability scores.

[RandomPeasant]

Nowhere does it say you get DCs based on an emulated ability score. I'm still waiting for quote that says you do instead of extrapolation and deduction.

The rules do not include lines specifically authorizing you to do everything that is possible. There is nowhere it says that you may use Diplomacy on a Pyroclastic Dragon, or take Martial Study as a Rogue bonus feat, or apply the Axiomatic enhancement to a gnome hooked hammer. The rules allow you to do categories of thing, and things within those categories are prohibited where not explicitly forbidden. A Sorcerer is allowed to learn spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, silent image is a spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, and as such a Sorcerer who has gained a new 1st level spell known may select it without concern.

UMD allows you to emulate an ability score to use when activating an item (this, incidentally, is the place you want to attack it, the description only talks about scrolls, so "it only works in the context of scrolls" is a colorable, if obviously motivated, argument). Since staves pick up the ability score used when activating them, they are perfectly able to pick up an emulated one if that's what gets used. It's like passing 5 to a function in a program. The onus isn't on us to explain why that causes the function to receive 5 as a parameter, it's on you to explain why it doesn't.

*face meet palm*

If you can't even see how your claim was false, then we have nothing further to discuss.

You know, if your argument was so obviously right that it didn't need to be explained, it seems like you could've just said that on page one and you could've been saved running into all those pieces of rules that worked in ways that completely contradicted your claims. Still, at least you've learned that next time you don't need to make any arguments for your position, so I can be saved the headache of explaining that an example showing someone using an ability demonstrates that, yes, you can in fact use that ability.

[redking]

UMD allows you to emulate an ability score to use when activating an item (this, incidentally, is the place you want to attack it, the description only talks about scrolls, so "it only works in the context of scrolls" is a colorable, if obviously motivated, argument). Since staves pick up the ability score used when activating them, they are perfectly able to pick up an emulated one if that's what gets used. It's like passing 5 to a function in a program. The onus isn't on us to explain why that causes the function to receive 5 as a parameter, it's on you to explain why it doesn't.

You emulate an ability score. Emulating an ability score does not mean what you think it does or claim it does.

The entire point of the UMD check is to meet activation requirements for which you otherwise do not meet the prerequisites. You don't skip anything. You make a UMD check, the Difficulty Class (DC) of which determined by the task at hand.

To meet an activation requirement is why you emulate. If you emulate an ability score, this is called a task.

If you successfully pass the check for the UMD task at hand, you may activate the item. It doesn't matter if you pass the check by 1 or 100. The outcome of activation is exactly the same.

If you emulate an ability score for a staff that requires an ability score, you can make a UMD check for that task.

What you are saying is that there is a difference in the outcome of activation based on how well you passed the check, in certain circumstances, such as the monk's belt or staffs. This isn't the case and there is nothing in UMD that says it is.

The UMD check is pass/fail for the task.

If you got to set DCs through a UMD check for a task, or actually got to make use of an ability score in conjunction with an item, that would constitute a major, perhaps even primary feature of UMD that would surely be detailed.

You can't demonstrate that the rules say that you can make use of an ability score via a UMD task.

[RandomPeasant]

If you emulate an ability score for a staff that requires an ability score, you can make a UMD check for that task.

A staff requires an ability score to produce the effect of "cast a spell from this staff with a DC set by that ability score". The fact that it's phrased as a continuous effect and not a series of discrete effects doesn't mean it's not eligible for emulation.

If you got to set DCs through a UMD check for a task, or actually got to make use of an ability score in conjunction with an item, that would constitute a major, perhaps even primary feature of UMD that would surely be detailed.

You don't get to set DCs. You get to set ability scores used for the purposes of activation, and it happens that in some cases those set DCs. It's not weird that UMD doesn't call out that it also works in a specific case of a specific interaction with a type of item. Stuff doesn't call out that it works in specific cases all the time. Because the rules state general cases.

[redking]

A staff requires an ability score to produce the effect of "cast a spell from this staff with a DC set by that ability score". The fact that it's phrased as a continuous effect and not a series of discrete effects doesn't mean it's not eligible for emulation.

You have an ability score to use for staffs. Your own. "Emulate" doesn't do what you think it does. Nor is there any basis to think it does. It's just your conjecture.

You don't get to set DCs. You get to set ability scores used for the purposes of activation, and it happens that in some cases those set DCs. It's not weird that UMD doesn't call out that it also works in a specific case of a specific interaction with a type of item. Stuff doesn't call out that it works in specific cases all the time. Because the rules state general cases.

According to you, the DCs are a sliding scale set by the outcome of your UMD check for an ability score task. This is what I mean by setting DCs. If there were a sliding scale, it would have been detailed in the UMD section. It is not. All we have in UMD is pass/fail scenarios. All passes are equal. There are no superior passes. Getting a check of 1 million past the required DC for a UMD task gets you nothing more than someone that met the DC for the UMD task exactly.

I do not agree with your inference and deduction in relation to UMD. I'm following the rules, not making them up. If you want to say that "emulate" has a hidden meaning not provided within the text of UMD itself, just houserule it.

[RandomPeasant]

You have an ability score to use for staffs. Your own. "Emulate" doesn't do what you think it does. Nor is there any basis to think it does. It's just your conjecture.

What do you think "emulate" means, if not "use something other than your own"?

According to you, the DCs are a sliding scale set by the outcome of your UMD check for an ability score task. This is what I mean by setting DCs. If there were a sliding scale, it would have been detailed in the UMD section.

The DCs for staves are that. And not according to me, accord to the rules for staves. And, no, the rules for UMD would not have explained how a general usage interacts with a specific item. Why would they? Do the rules for BAB explain how they interact with Power Attack? No, Power Attack does that. Similarly, staves say "if you have a high enough ability score, you get better DCs". That's a functionality of the item. That's a way to use it. So when you decide to use it, you can UMD "having a high enough ability score" so that you can activate it in the way that requires a high ability score.

[ralitavakol1990]

deleted deleted

what does it mean ?
Is it an introduction to a poem?

[redking]

What do you think "emulate" means, if not "use something other than your own"?

I follow what it says in the text for UMD. Emulate an ability score all you want to activate an item, scroll or otherwise. When it comes to DCs, you use your own ability score for that. If the rules wanted you to do otherwise, it would be specified. Emulate doesn't mean what you conjecture.

The DCs for staves are that. And not according to me, accord to the rules for staves. And, no, the rules for UMD would not have explained how a general usage interacts with a specific item. Why would they? Do the rules for BAB explain how they interact with Power Attack? No, Power Attack does that. Similarly, staves say "if you have a high enough ability score, you get better DCs". That's a functionality of the item. That's a way to use it. So when you decide to use it, you can UMD "having a high enough ability score" so that you can activate it in the way that requires a high ability score.

If you are prevented from using a staff due to a requirement for an ability score, you can make a UMD check for that task. Otherwise, you don't need make the UMD check. Even if you made the check for a staff that does not require it, you use your own ability score. It would be fruitless.

[RandomPeasant]

I follow what it says in the text for UMD. Emulate an ability score all you want to activate an item, scroll or otherwise. When it comes to DCs, you use your own ability score for that.

This is an entirely unprincipled distinction. The rules say exactly as much about using "Emulate an Ability Score" in any non-scroll context as they do about using it in the "get bigger DCs" context of a staff. So why is it that I can emulate an 18 for an item that says "if you have 18 CHA, you get +2 to AC", but not for the staff functionality of "if you have 18 CHA, you get DCs based on a stat of 18"? If it has to be explicitly allowed, where is the allowance?

Otherwise, you don't need make the UMD check.

"Don't need to" is not "can't". I don't need to give the guy who's offering free strawberries $5 when I take some strawberries, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to. "Emulate an Ability Score" is very deliberately phrased to allow you to emulate a higher ability score if you should want to. Which, I suppose, reads as exactly the sort of "it would let you emulate for scaling" thing you claim ought to exist.

[Nelfin]

Imho (!), you are assuming "hidden rules" where the item makes a "hidden check" of your stats. Your interpretation relies on hidden things that are not presented by the rules to function.

Which "hidden rules"? You know, I apply the rule "unsubstanciated assertion = no argument". I am just saying "activating an item means fullfilling its activation requirements". So again "which hidden rules"?

While my approach doesn't need any hidden rules or steps to get a functional interpretation.

That is to be decided yet... Indeed, the rules says

To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. [...]

that is to use an item, its activation requirements must be fullfilled. No more. You are now extrapolating this to

1: "Using Items" = "Using an Item's Effect"
2: "Activation" can provide the item with stats

Funnily:

1. there is no mention of the item's activation method in ""Activation" can provide the item with stats" which is somewhat... weird?
2. you are now rolling back on a meaning you agreed with? "Activate an item" means "fullfill its activation requirements" does no longer seem a decent definition to you?

Seems my brain did something on its own this night.

I think I finally found why there is such a huge difference in reading between people, at least between you and me (and potentially why you think that I was changing duration and time in my previous post). I don't remember anyone in the thread defining properly what [Activate an item] means.

Because we have a definition for "Activating a Magic Item".

[...]

As you can see, we have well defined rules for "Activating a Magic Item".
Now lets see what this means for UMD and our two example items we have been discussing here mainly about:

Are we "done" now? Kindly asking^^
If questions should remain, I'm up for it. :)

with the meaning given in a previous quote

[Activate an item] means to [fulfill the requirements of, that is what is written in, its activation method].

(emphases are mine). Yeah your reading seems quite fuzzy, allowing to change the meaning of "activate an item" as suited so that now "Activating an item" "grants the item with stats"... No cognitive dissonance kicking in?

This is the sole point described by the rules where you can provide stats to the item by RAW.
Note that for "continuously working items" UMD is more specific and adds the rule to repeat this process as UMD-user once every hour!

Unless you can show me where the rules for "a magic items effect" are, that separates it from "Using Item" (and therefore "Activation"), you have to assume that the stats provided at the point of activation are the values used for the items effect.

Sorry to say this, but you are implying rules that are simply not there. There is no separate step other than "Activation" to "use" the effect of a magical item.

I hope that you now maybe understand why I see your approach as illegal by RAW. The rules as presented don't allow such an interpretation. Even if it also leads to a functional interpretation, it is not supported by RAW.

It (your interpretation) could be used as a functional houserule to nerf UMD into the ground. If you want that, this would definitively be an option. But it would be a houserule and not RAW imho.

Dunno if I have missed any rule, but if you can provide any textual evidence that supports your "interpretation approach" somehow, pls point me to it. I don't claim that I'm aware of every text passage at any time. I mean, with the 3.5 rules being scattered all over the place (phb, dmg, srd, errata, rc...) we all share the same struggle here I guess...

Yeah this looks more and more like bad faith. You mean like there is an "activation line" which is different than the "effect" that the item produces? Like the section "Activating an item" only reference the "activation line" of the item? Whatever I am fed up with bad faith.

By the way, Emulate an ability score is first referenced in the table and there is no condition yet given to use Emulate an ability score. Don't your strict reading should say "Eh, the description given in Emulate an ability score should take precedence". Also, the "To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells)." does not have any keyword saying it is an example, keywork such as "Sometimes", "Some items", "For instance", "For example", "Such as"... You also interpret it as an example, so that it can be discarded for rule reading, instead of a rule, which is by default, effectively restricting its usage from all items to scroll... Again, seems like RAW reading is "as you wish" applying reading rule where it is pleasant to do so.

But, don't worry. There are not much people who have completely read everything written in the thread. So now you can continue to houserule UMD to buff it and feel better since it is "RAW". Also an additional reason to not worry, my goal was to understand how UMD works. I have achieved that goal so I am not dealing anymore with bad faith, and even double standard maybe.

[redking]

Which "hidden rules"? You know, I apply the rule "unsubstanciated assertion = no argument". I am just saying "activating an item means fullfilling its activation requirements". So again "which hidden rules"?

It amazes me that people in this thread believe that a DC check for Use Magic Device = something else that has a follow on effect on the item. When there is a requirement for an ability score, you make a UMD check at the appropriate Difficulty Class and either pass or fail the check. The UMD check isn't some sort of check to give a phantom ability score that you can use. Its not "give me an ability score to use in conjunction with the item", its "let me fake an ability score so I am qualified to use the item", such as a scroll.

If UMD was supposed to provide an ability score to use in conjunction with an item, the implications of such are so great that this surely would have been expounded upon in the text itself.

It would have been nice if Pathfinder had fixed UMD, but at the time Pathfinder was created, the consensus was that UMD could not do the things that have been suggested in this thread. It is only in recent years that people have raised increasingly tenuous readings of the text, often out of context and not in line with common sense.

A tale of two chalices

Chalice of Channeling: This chalice creates one dose of holy water when a cleric or other character with the turn undead class feature expends a use of turn undead into it.

Chalice of Holy Water: This chalice creates one dose of holy water 3 times per day. Use of this item is restricted to characters with the turn undead class feature.

Scenario 1: Lidda is a halfing rogue with epic levels of UMD skills. Lidda has no trouble passing a UMD check to emulate the turn undead class feature. Unfortunately, the chalice in the possession of Lidda is the Chalice of Channeling. Because Lidda cannot use the class feature she is emulating, she is unable to use this item.

Scenario 2: Lidda is a halfing rogue with epic levels of UMD skills. Lidda has no trouble passing a UMD check to emulate the turn undead class feature. Fortunately, the chalice in the possession of Lidda is the Chalice of Holy Water. While Lidda is not a cleric, Lidda is able to fool the item into thinking that she is a cleric with the turn undead class feature. As a result, Lidda can use the item 3 times per day, just like a cleric.

Tale of the Staff Master

Genius Staff of Fire and Giants: Crafted from bronzewood with brass bindings, this staff allows use of the following spells:

Burning hands (1 charge)
Fireball (1 charge)
Wall of fire (2 charges)

In addition, any giant using the item can use staff to use Summon Monster VI (fire elementals only 1 charge). Also, the creator of the staff only permits those of high intelligence to activate the staff. To activate the staff, a character must have an intelligence score of 20.

To use this item at all or more effectively, Lidda must make a single UMD check. The extent to which she can use the item will depend on results of her check.

Emulate race: DC 25.
Emulate 20 Intelligence: DC 35
Use a wand: DC 20.

As Lidda only has 10 intelligence, she needs to make a UMD check to use the item. Because the intelligence requirement is the highest DC, and is an absolute barrier to using the item, Lidda must get a result of at least DC 35 on her UMD check or she won't be able to use the item at all, not even partially. Lidda exceeds 35 DC on her roll and successfully passes all three UMD checks.

Having successfully emulated race, ability score, and use of wand, Lidda can now use the staff. In addition to the normal powers of the staff, Lidda can make use of the giants only Summon Monster IV. Lidda does not get any additional benefits such as caster level to staff, as Lidda does not actually have a caster level to provide to the staff or the emulated ability score to DCs. The emulated ability score is to overcome the obstacle in the activation requirements, not provide a real score that can be used.

Had the staff had no ability score requirement, and Lidda had achieved a result of 22 on her UMD check, Lidda would be able to use the staff normally, but not access its higher function only available to giants.

When UMD is properly understood, there is no need for adjudication. It works properly every single time. It doesn't matter when a UMD check is made. If the check is inappropriate, then nothing happens.

[KoDT69]

Ok so I started off with the same thinking as Redking's post above. Over the course I went to agreeing more with RandomPeasant. As much as I wanted Rogues to have this sweet loophole, it's just not so. I'm back with Redking's post above.
#1 - The SRD entry for Staffs says that they USE your CL and Ability Score to set DC. The word USE is there for both items. I believe it seems very intentional.
#2 - You can't USE the emulated things, just trick and item into activating. Nowhere does it state in the UMD entry that you can USE the ability scores being emulated. One of my biggest pet peeves of 3rd edition was that the rules assume you can't do a thing unless specifically told you can. That applies here.
#3 - It would make zero logical sense that a Rogue could use a staff better than the Wizard that made it. As funny as it would be, Occam's Kukri is just gonna Sneak Attack that option right outta here!

[redking]

#3 - It would make zero logical sense that a Rogue could use a staff better than the Wizard that made it. As funny as it would be, Occam's Kukri is just gonna Sneak Attack that option right outta here!

You can add this scenario to things that lack sense. Let's say that the wizard that created it has lots of ranks in UMD and also a custom item of UMD skill boost. According to some, this wizard could roll a check for UMD in order to use a staff to obtain a higher caster level in conjunction with the staff through the result of his UMD check than his real caster level. Does not compute.

Bad readings of UMD put DMs in the position of having to make ad hoc rulings. Correctly understood, UMD works and there are no disagreements between player and DM.

[Nelfin]

It would have been nice if Pathfinder had fixed UMD, but at the time Pathfinder was created, the consensus was that UMD could not do the things that have been suggested in this thread. It is only in recent years that people have raised increasingly tenuous readings of the text, often out of context and not in line with common sense.

Since you seem to know the history. When those types of reading began?

And by the way, didn't you mean

It is only in recent years that people have raised increasingly tenuous, tedious and ridiculous readings of the text, often out of context and not in line with common sense.

? There were some seriously ridiculous "arguments" that I didn't even bother to answer to.

[redking]

Since you seem to know the history. When those types of reading began?

A few years after WotC discontinued 3.5e. if you do a thorough search on Google for this subject and pay attention to the dates, you'll see what I mean.

And by the way, didn't you mean

? There were some seriously ridiculous "arguments" that I didn't even bother to answer to.

Well, yes. Especially since people these days implicitly claim that RAW means taking everything out of context, or RAW means wilfully misinterpreting words.

[Darg]

implicitly claim that RAW means taking everything out of context

Context? What is this context? You mean I should take related text and apply it to my understanding of the rules? What, now you're gonna say something like I can apply weapon focus and specialization to grapple and rays? That Precocious Apprentice tells you that you don't have the capability of casting 2nd level spells? That Foresight actually gives you warnings for you or the target? No way. Thats, that's like saying the rules are just a bunch of house rules. No way that's possible. You have it all wrong. It must be. Well, you can't prove that you can't UMD a monk's belt to gain the benefits of a level over 9000 monk without actually having the class features. The devs wouldn't have made it possible to fail the check if it weren't possible. Who cares if it can be used already. I can't be higher than a 5th level monk from the first part unless I actually have monk levels so that must mean it requires monk features even though it explicitly tells me monk levels. That means I must be able to UMD to fake a class feature to fake being a class because then I have the class levels to benefit from the class features that require having class levels to benefit higher than the normal benefit.

[KoDT69]

So this may seem non-sequiter, but if a Monk wearing the Monks' Belt gains a level in which the bonuses for the belt increase, does the Monk have to remove the belt and put it back on to receive the benefits? Or does he just get the bonus increase and call it a day?

[redking]

So this may seem non-sequiter, but if a Monk wearing the Monks' Belt gains a level in which the bonuses for the belt increase, does the Monk have to remove the belt and put it back on to receive the benefits? Or does he just get the bonus increase and call it a day?

Gaining levels is an abstraction, really. You gain the level when you update your character sheet. But as far as the game world is concerned, you have been slowly improving. I'd just say that it's it's just +5 levels of the relevant monk abilities conferred by the monk's belt, and if you gain a level it's still +5 of your monk level. No need to remove it and put if back on.