Vecna stats and lore

[ProsecutorGodot]

"Most consider" I assume you have a poll supporting that claim?

In regards to this thread, since the complaints and discussion are happening here.

It's justification, not permission. No DM needs permission, that's how D&D works.

They don't need any justification either, because they're given permission to adjust the rules as they see fit in the DMG.

How to Use These Rules
These rules are organized in three parts. The first part helps you decide what kind of campaign you’d like to run. The second part helps you create the adventures — the stories — that will compose the campaign and keep the players entertained from one game session to the next. The last part helps you adjudicate the rules of the game and modify them to suit the style of your campaign.

They're given explicit permission. Which I will admit, you're right, nobody actually needs that to do what they want with the system. However this is why I think the BOVD is a terrible crutch option for this statblock to have because it's already being used as an object to point at and say "look, that solves the issue!". I don't think it solves the issue, because it's already a vague and swingy item that can range from "only does the listed abilities" to "literally every spell known in this edition or the previous 4 could be in this book" depending on what the DM decides. I think statblocks should be appealing to their intended fantasies and goals from the outset and not require constant adjustments, especially for a widely recognizable named NPC.

Which others? I haven't called anyone names.

"Others" in regards to people other than those who are complaining with the understanding that the BOVD is present who continuously point at the BOVD and say "look, that solves the issue!".

Yeah I was not considering a fight against each other but against a party. Vecna is the more dangerous of the two. Acererak has a lot of options and can do some fancy stuff, but he’s not as dangerous or resilient as Vecna.

I'm hoping that eventually our Mad Mage campaign will conclude (scheduling sessions has been incredibly difficult recently) and I'll be able to better gauge how an epic level casting BBEG fares against a party. I believe I mentioned it earlier, but we did fight Klauth as a spellcasting Greatwyrm and our (at the time) 18th level party more or less mopped the floor with him. I know that the version of Halaster we'll be fighting has taken some inspirations from Acererak as we've confirmed he has multiple 9th level slots.

I'll also be asking my DM if he'd be willing to run us through the one shot posted with this by then too, reading through the statblocks can only get you so far and I'd rather confirm through experience whether what I'm reading will pan out in practice. Side note, and take this as purely opinionated statements - a lot of the discussion about a party to take this Vecna on has many restrictions for the party, which I can understand as part of making the discussion approachable for all to enter but it's very rare for a character to reach these epic levels in a state that at all matches the expectations the DMG sets out for wealth. My sample size is pretty small, I'll admit, but I feel that characters who actually grow through an adventure (and acquire loot) tend to fall well above the power curve the DMG expects for them.

[Psyren]

In regards to this thread, since the complaints and discussion are happening here.

Ah, so a representative sample of D&D players.

They don't need any justification either, because they're given permission to adjust the rules as they see fit in the DMG.

Sure but plenty want justification. Enough to pay for it, even.

(Nobody needs maps or splats or DM screens either.)

They're given explicit permission. Which I will admit, you're right, nobody actually needs that to do what they want with the system. However this is why I think the BOVD is a terrible crutch option for this statblock to have because it's already being used as an object to point at and say "look, that solves the issue!". I don't think it solves the issue, because it's already a vague and swingy item that can range from "only does the listed abilities" to "literally every spell known in this edition or the previous 4 could be in this book" depending on what the DM decides. I think statblocks should be appealing to their intended fantasies and goals from the outset and not require constant adjustments, especially for a widely recognizable named NPC.
...
"Others" in regards to people other than those who are complaining with the understanding that the BOVD is present who continuously point at the BOVD and say "look, that solves the issue!".

I didn't say anything about "solving," you're the only one using that word. I don't happen to think there's an issue to be "solved" at all. All I'm doing is pointing out a suggestion that could potentially be missed, as well as pointing out things that could be done with it, for those who might have a problem for whatever reason.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Ah, so a representative sample of D&D players.

As much a representative as you are in support of its design, I don't understand why you're hung up on this part. You're welcome to enjoy it, others (myself among them) are welcome to not enjoy it. It's not fair for either side to be telling the other that their enjoyment or lack thereof is, quote, "yelling into a message board void". In that respect, all of these opinions are equally valid.

[Psyren]

As much a representative as you are in support of its design, I don't understand why you're hung up on this part.

I'm not the one who made the claim that "most" think a certain way, you did.

And even if you're right that it's most of this subforum... whoopty-do.

[Kane0]

Ehhhh. When epic creatures clash, I'd want a general "plus collateral damage" over needing a specific line in their statblock over how they do that specific thing.

Funnily enough objects arent resistant or immune to nectrotic damage, so that 120' cone could conceivably do quite a bit of collateral damage.

It has evil word on it take that 3d6 AOE Ha! How an level 20 party could possibly stand a chance, let alone poor old Kas

Edit: He also notably has the Book of Vile Darkness hidden away in his chest cavity, so i'd be more than happy to trade his dagger attacks for uses of it's Dark Speech power (without hurting himself), especially since it appears it's other abilities are already factored into his statblock (arcana expertise, the 1/LR dominate monster, 1d100 years reformation period).

Going by that little tweak, his turn could be:
Cone everyone for 8d8 Con half w/ Fear, teleport into target cluster for another 3d6 no save to anyone within 15' which heals him 80 (he probably won't act first), two Dark Words for another 6d6 no save again to everyone within 15'. Then he moves away, any opp attacks that hit add another 3d6 plus an extra 30' distance and the fear will hopefully keep at least some from closing and leaves him with two counterspells or teleport repositions to last him until next turn. If he's concentrating on a Fly spell he could feasibly be avoiding 60' range spells and attacks.

He can dish out 8d8 + 9d6 to the entire party this way if theyre poorly positioned (like huddling around the paladin to benefit from his auras), plus the fear rider and moving back out of melee again and 2-3 reactions left over. None of this can be reduced by uncanny dodge, evasion, etc but a good save against the cone and necrotic resistance would of course apply.

Now that may or may not be worth an offensive CR of 26, I havent checked the DMG guidelines nor calculated the specific modifiers (no save, cant be counterspelled, etc).

[ProsecutorGodot]

He can dish out 8d8 + 9d6 to the entire party this way if theyre poorly positioned (like huddling around the paladin to benefit from his auras), plus the fear rider and moving back out of melee again and 2-3 reactions left over. None of this can be reduced by uncanny dodge, evasion, etc but a good save against the cone and necrotic resistance would of course apply.

Like I said early on, a Paladin with Circle of Power active makes that entire thing do nothing on a success and on a fail you still won't be frightened, it seems like it would be a very effective counter. I'd love to test exactly how far the strategy takes the party in the encounter.

I'm not the one who made the claim that "most" think a certain way, you did.

And even if you're right that it's most of this subforum... whoopty-do.

I'm making a good faith assumption that those who are discussing this statblock did read it and do understand that the book of vile darkness is present, which is why I feel the need to point out that the fact it keeps being brought up like anyone isn't aware its there is not giving people enough credit to have read and understand the statblock.

[Kane0]

Like I said early on, a Paladin with Circle of Power active makes that entire thing do nothing on a success and on a fail you still won't be frightened, it seems like it would be a very effective counter. I'd love to test exactly how far the strategy takes the party in the encounter.

Thats OK with me, its a 5th level Pally only spell that takes an action to cast and lasts 10 mins with concentration, and does nothing against the no-save effects but it does help a lot against the cone and rotten fate. That might be a good time to revert to a dispel or afterthought if the pally's AC isnt too high.

[Psyren]

I'm making a good faith assumption that those who are discussing this statblock did read it and do understand that the book of vile darkness is present, which is why I feel the need to point out that the fact it keeps being brought up like anyone isn't aware its there is not giving people enough credit to have read and understand the statblock.

That information (that the encounter can allow him to use the artifact in his possession) is in a sidebar, not his statblock.

Moreover, the information that the BoVD itself can be further customized is in yet another sidebar.

So I have no problem pointing that out, nor am I doing so in bad faith.

[Rafaelfras]

Grognard it basically means grumbler in French. And was a term for old guard, who liked things how they used to be.

It’s well used in the tabletop gaming space for people who dislike change in their games.

But more to the point how is Acererak stronger.

Thank you. I am ok with changes, case in point I´ve changed from 3e for 5e because I liked most of the changes. I dont like THIS change manly because it constrains what a DM can do with a spellcaster and it fails to reflect then.

Acererak has 3 legendary action + a reaction against Vecna 3 reactions, he has better AC, HP and spell DC, he has better resistances and better stats overall, he has aces to shield to pump his AC to 26 if needed. With his spells he has access to a greater number of combinations and strategies to deal with different party compositions. He has better control of the field with force wall, clould kill and maze, he can upcast some of his spells like hold monster to target the whole party, he has access to better lair actions and can use that sphere of annihilation. If we are allowed to change some things based on their blocs IE Vecna get spells because the book of vile darkness then I can change Acererak spell list as he prepare his spells like a wizard then it would be no contest but I am not doing that, I am working with what is given.

Funnily enough objects arent resistant or immune to nectrotic damage, so that 120' cone could conceivably do quite a bit of collateral damage.




He can dish out 8d8 + 9d6 to the entire party this way if theyre poorly positioned (like huddling around the paladin to benefit from his auras), plus the fear rider and moving back out of melee again and 2-3 reactions left over. None of this can be reduced by uncanny dodge, evasion, etc but a good save against the cone and necrotic resistance would of course apply.

Now that may or may not be worth an offensive CR of 26, I havent checked the DMG guidelines nor calculated the specific modifiers (no save, cant be counterspelled, etc).

Yeah, 17d something is interesting if the cost was an action and didnt put himself on danger like that. I really struggle to see him surviving the damage amount a lvl 20 party can do.

[ProsecutorGodot]

That information (that the encounter can allow him to use the artifact in his possession) is in a sidebar, not his statblock.

Moreover, the information that the BoVD itself can be further customized is in yet another sidebar.

So I have no problem pointing that out, nor am I doing so in bad faith.

Because the statblock is digital there's no way to view it that doesn't also include mention of of the book of vile darkness being something he can (but probably won't) use. While I do wish there was explicit mention of it in the statblock that you would use for shorthand, it is included in the statblock in the same way a creature who has a lair action would have their lair action included, or where other variant monster abilities would be listed such as spellcasting vampires.

I feel that you do not need to point it out unless you're assuming someone has not viewed the information being discussed. That's not the problem I have with it being pointed out though, if I hadn't made that clear, the problem I have is that it keeps getting pointed out as a dismissal of those saying that this Vecna lacks spellcasting ability. It may have been in good faith when it was initially pointed out... by Dork_Forge, then Stoutstein, then Unoriginal (reference the adventure, which does not use it) and then yourself. Heck, even I mention it at one point as a failsafe he'd be forced to use if grappled inside an anti-magic field. The discussion seems to have changed though from "this is an option he can have, and that's okay" to "because he has this option, anything lacking in the primary statblock is to be excused".

It is, in my opinion, a bad solution to a problem that could have been avoided by simply looking at the other epic level caster (Iggwilv) who was made under the same rules and does a better job of showcasing epic level casting ability. Do I care if this would have made him more challenging to run or fight? Not much, but I do care that the supposed soon to be God is such a limited spellcaster without the assistance of an artifact that functions more or less the same for anyone else that might hold it.

To summarize my complaint - pointing it out is fine, pointing it out and saying "he's not lacking spellcasting ability, he literally has the BOVD in his body and can use it to cast any spell you want" is missing the point of the complaints.

Thats OK with me, its a 5th level Pally only spell that takes an action to cast and lasts 10 mins with concentration, and does nothing against the no-save effects but it does help a lot against the cone and rotten fate. That might be a good time to revert to a dispel or afterthought if the pally's AC isnt too high.

Also available to Twilight Cleric, though they're not as good at ending the Frightened condition as the Paladin is at ignoring it altogether.

[Psyren]

To summarize my complaint - pointing it out is fine, pointing it out and saying "he's not lacking spellcasting ability, he literally has the BOVD in his body and can use it to cast any spell you want" is missing the point of the complaints.

Saying he should have a bunch of extra spells added to his statblock is missing the point of the design. This is the best of both worlds, if you would only see it.

[Blatant Beast]

So the caster is giving up their action, reaction, and concentration to get a spell off on Vecna assuming he doesn't just scry (action) you to prevent this. Sounds about right for Vecna.

As a Player, if Vecna is using an Action to Scry my character while in combat with the Adventuring Party, due to pillars, (for example), obstructing Vecna’s view, I would call that a success.

Vecna just Scrying…means PCs are likely not dying…due to his other bag of tricks in Vecna’s Action slot.

The other aspect is one determines the trigger on Readied Actions.
A well coordinated group can use this to control the flow of battle…see 3e D&D, for an example.

As for chill touch sure it's a boon here but that's assuming the party has it and has the knowledge that he has regeneration powers and is willing to do half damage to prevent it.

Chill Touch beyond preventing Healing also penalizes Undead with Disadvantage on their Attack Rolls. The actual damage from Chill Touch is the least important thing about the Cantrip.

My experience is at least one person, (and often time, more than one), has Chill Touch.

Which is an important consideration. Vecna, at some point is going to have to expend a Reaction to Dread Counterspell a Chill Touch or two.

How many Action Surges can Vecna eat, when Healing is off the table?

[Envyus]

As a Player, if Vecna is using an Action to Scry my character while in combat with the Adventuring Party, due to pillars, (for example), obstructing Vecna’s view, I would call that a success.

Vecna just Scrying…means PCs are likely not dying…due to his other bag of tricks in Vecna’s Action slot.

The other aspect is one determines the trigger on Readied Actions.
A well coordinated group can use this to control the flow of battle…see 3e D&D, for an example.



Chill Touch beyond preventing Healing also penalizes Undead with Disadvantage on their Attack Rolls. The actual damage from Chill Touch is the least important thing about the Cantrip.

My experience is at least one person, (and often time, more than one), has Chill Touch.

Which is an important consideration. Vecna, at some point is going to have to expend a Reaction to Dread Counterspell a Chill Touch or two.

How many Action Surges can Vecna eat, when Healing is off the table?

Vecna will pretty much never eat an Action Surge unless the fighter is an archer and there is no cover. Remember he can teleport away from the attacker thus negating the rest of the attacks .

[Anymage]

If Vecna jumps into the middle of the party, those 30' might still be close enough for the fighter to close. Similarly the fighter might have a Haste or Fly effect up, or might have any other movement increasing effect. (The fighter in my current group is an EK who quite likes Expeditious Retreat.)

Then again, if the party is fresh and well prepared, them being able to squash Vecna isn't that surprising. A party that's well prepared and ready to nova can squash just about anything. I'm okay with that not being the yardstick everything is built around.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Vecna will pretty much never eat an Action Surge unless the fighter is an archer and there is no cover. Remember he can teleport away from the attacker thus negating the rest of the attacks .

In practice, I don’t think Vecna will succeed in escaping the rest of the attacks.

• A 30’ Teleport is likely not going to stop a Psi Warrior with a use of Psi-Powered Leap available.
  []
  
• Many games allow PCs to drop held items, no action or object interaction required. Drop Melee weapon, Draw Ranged Weapon.
  []
  
• A monk fighting Vecna one on one, Hand to Hand, can Grapple as their Attack. Since Grapples substitutions do not technically count as ‘hits’ a Open Hand Monk could then use Flurry of Blows and Open Hand Technique to prevent Vecna from using Reactions.
  []
  
• Cue sad Trombone.

As a DM, I would absolutely have Fell Rebuke function when Vecna was successfully Grappled, but by literal RAW, Grapple Special Attacks do not count as hits.

[Kane0]

Then again, if the party is fresh and well prepared, them being able to squash Vecna isn't that surprising. A party that's well prepared and ready to nova can squash just about anything. I'm okay with that not being the yardstick everything is built around.

Thats a good point. How would we model that? Like 25% chance any given resource has been expended?

Edit: or do it in gradations, like 25% expenditure for a lightly used PC, 33% moderately spent and 50% for heavily taxed?

[stoutstien]

As a Player, if Vecna is using an Action to Scry my character while in combat with the Adventuring Party, due to pillars, (for example), obstructing Vecna’s view, I would call that a success.

Vecna just Scrying…means PCs are likely not dying…due to his other bag of tricks in Vecna’s Action slot.

The other aspect is one determines the trigger on Readied Actions.
A well coordinated group can use this to control the flow of battle…see 3e D&D, for an example.



Chill Touch beyond preventing Healing also penalizes Undead with Disadvantage on their Attack Rolls. The actual damage from Chill Touch is the least important thing about the Cantrip.

My experience is at least one person, (and often time, more than one), has Chill Touch.

Which is an important consideration. Vecna, at some point is going to have to expend a Reaction to Dread Counterspell a Chill Touch or two.

How many Action Surges can Vecna eat, when Healing is off the table?

Chill touch only gives disadvantage on attack rolls against you not the whole party. Scry can be part of the attack action so it's very risky to think one could successfully trade their entire action pool out to use ready action for a spells and not pay the price. That's if he doesn't just cast it before hand if he is aware of a blind spot in the area. As for countering chill touch why not. It's still a net win for him action wise.

How would a party fair if they are facing him after getting half of there spells countered for the 2 previous encounters?

[Envyus]

Thats a good point. How would we model that? Like 25% chance any given resource has been expended?

Edit: or do it in gradations, like 25% expenditure for a lightly used PC, 33% moderately spent and 50% for heavily taxed?

A Level 20 party should beat Vecna. A Level 20 party should be able to beat any lone monster in the game.

[Blatant Beast]

That's if he doesn't just cast it before hand if he is aware of a blind spot in the area. As for countering chill touch why not. It's still a net win for him action wise.

I disagree.
A coordinated party can absolutely, draw out a Vecna Counterspell, which in of itself, could be the Trigger for a Readied Action.

A sorcerer dedicated to applying Chill Touch can just cast Chill Touch twice per round using the Quicken Metamagic.

Two ranged Fighters using Action Surge is enough to kill Vecna.

In the words of Grand Moff Tarkin: “I think you overestimate their chances”.
Their being Vecna.

Vecna is not a solo type creature, like tanks…Vecna needs some other forces to screen him.

[stoutstien]

I disagree.
A coordinated party can absolutely, draw out a Vecna Counterspell, which in of itself, could be the Trigger for a Readied Action.

A sorcerer dedicated to applying Chill Touch can just cast Chill Touch twice per round using the Quicken Metamagic.

Two ranged Fighters using Action Surge is enough to kill Vecna.

In the words of Grand Moff Tarkin: “I think you overestimate their chances”.
Their being Vecna.

Vecna is not a solo type creature, like tanks…Vecna needs some other forces to screen him.

So a very specific party puprosely built to counter a certain type of NPC is good at countering said NPCs if they also have knowledge of it's exact features? Why would it be any other way?
For the rest of the tables why aren't expecting the design to cater to the extreme fringes of play styles the block is fine.

[Blatant Beast]

So a very specific party puprosely built to counter a certain type of NPC is good at countering said NPCs if they also have knowledge of it's exact features? Why would it be any other way?
For the rest of the tables why aren't expecting the design to cater to the extreme fringes of play styles the block is fine.

A party with two T4 Fighters that have Ranged Weapons, and a T4 Sorcerer with the Quicken Metamagic ability, is not some ultra bespoke party.

This is not even including Open Hand Monks, or Clerics.

It is cool you want to defend the statblock, but the internet abounds with examples of strategies that defeat Vecna, involving most of the classes.
No offense, but your arguments are not persuading me.

(Barbarians are hosed, but nothing new there).

[stoutstien]

A party with two T4 Fighters that have Ranged Weapons, and a T4 Sorcerer with the Quicken Metamagic ability, is not some ultra bespoke party.

This is not even including Open Hand Monks, or Clerics.

It is cool you want to defend the statblock, but the internet abounds with examples of strategies that defeat Vecna, involving most of the classes.
No offense, but your arguments are not persuading me.

(Barbarians are hosed, but nothing new there).

There are ample online strategies to beat any NPC. the party is supposed to win. Knowing that the CR is assuming that the party isn't doing that great as far as coordination goes.

[Dork_Forge]

A party with two T4 Fighters that have Ranged Weapons, and a T4 Sorcerer with the Quicken Metamagic ability, is not some ultra bespoke party.

This is not even including Open Hand Monks, or Clerics.

It is cool you want to defend the statblock, but the internet abounds with examples of strategies that defeat Vecna, involving most of the classes.
No offense, but your arguments are not persuading me.

(Barbarians are hosed, but nothing new there).

Monsters are meant to be beatable, the fact that looking at a statblock you can point out ways to beat it with meta knowledge is not surprising for any monster of any CR.

Vecna is a lot more challenging in anything resembling actually playing against him, not only in the 'what the heck is going on' factor of his aggressively efficient economy, but the realities of rolling dice and having to face a BBEG outside of a white room.

I think it's a safe bet that the most common use for Vecna will not be a fresh party, and likely won't be him alone.

I'm also going to throw out there that some tactics you're pointing to are certainly table dependent, here's anecdotal things to consider:

-I've never seen a party with two Fighters, and I severely doubt that getting two T4 Fighters that are both Dex based (at minimum) is extremely rare.

- Chill Touch is a niche cantrip, even on Wizards I've rarely seen it taken since healing enemies are a small niche. Even if it is available you have to be alive to use it, the first time you tag Vecna with it, he will make sure you die and just direct Afterthought to the rest of the party whom he doesn't have disadvantage against.

@thread as a whole

Everyone criticising the power of Vecna... have you actually tested the block at all? And I don't mean throwing meta-contrived strategies at it.

[noob]

Monsters are meant to be beatable, the fact that looking at a statblock you can point out ways to beat it with meta knowledge is not surprising for any monster of any CR.

Vecna is a lot more challenging in anything resembling actually playing against him, not only in the 'what the heck is going on' factor of his aggressively efficient economy, but the realities of rolling dice and having to face a BBEG outside of a white room.

I think it's a safe bet that the most common use for Vecna will not be a fresh party, and likely won't be him alone.

I'm also going to throw out there that some tactics you're pointing to are certainly table dependent, here's anecdotal things to consider:

-I've never seen a party with two Fighters, and I severely doubt that getting two T4 Fighters that are both Dex based (at minimum) is extremely rare.

- Chill Touch is a niche cantrip, even on Wizards I've rarely seen it taken since healing enemies are a small niche. Even if it is available you have to be alive to use it, the first time you tag Vecna with it, he will make sure you die and just direct Afterthought to the rest of the party whom he doesn't have disadvantage against.

@thread as a whole

Everyone criticising the power of Vecna... have you actually tested the block at all? And I don't mean throwing meta-contrived strategies at it.

This is why I suggested the party should be the most standard party ever if we wanted to check the validity of a vecna benchmark.
So for example the evoker wizard should pick only evocation spells and when at a spell level he have remaining picks for non evocation spells (after grabbing all the evocation ones) he should pick them at random and ignore the non evocation spells 99% of the time.
No feats, no magical items beyond the basics(ex: +1 sword)

[Dork_Forge]

This is why I suggested the party should be the most standard party ever if we wanted to check the validity of a vecna benchmark.
So for example the evoker wizard should pick only evocation spells and when at a spell level he have remaining picks for non evocation spells (after grabbing all the evocation ones) he should pick them at random and ignore the non evocation spells 99% of the time.
No feats, no magical items beyond the basics(ex: +1 sword)

I think that's a fair benchmark, against a classic Life Cleric, Evoker Wizard, Thief Rogue, Champion Fighter Vecna is incredibly intimidating.

[noob]

I think that's a fair benchmark, against a classic Life Cleric, Evoker Wizard, Thief Rogue, Champion Fighter Vecna is incredibly intimidating.

Now the big question is: what is the most stereotypical spell list for a life cleric.

[stoutstien]

Now the big question is: what is the most stereotypical spell list for a life cleric.

PHB only?. They can prepare most of them by T4

[stoutstien]

Monsters are meant to be beatable, the fact that looking at a statblock you can point out ways to beat it with meta knowledge is not surprising for any monster of any CR.

Vecna is a lot more challenging in anything resembling actually playing against him, not only in the 'what the heck is going on' factor of his aggressively efficient economy, but the realities of rolling dice and having to face a BBEG outside of a white room.

I think it's a safe bet that the most common use for Vecna will not be a fresh party, and likely won't be him alone.

I'm also going to throw out there that some tactics you're pointing to are certainly table dependent, here's anecdotal things to consider:

-I've never seen a party with two Fighters, and I severely doubt that getting two T4 Fighters that are both Dex based (at minimum) is extremely rare.

- Chill Touch is a niche cantrip, even on Wizards I've rarely seen it taken since healing enemies are a small niche. Even if it is available you have to be alive to use it, the first time you tag Vecna with it, he will make sure you die and just direct Afterthought to the rest of the party whom he doesn't have disadvantage against.

@thread as a whole

Everyone criticising the power of Vecna... have you actually tested the block at all? And I don't mean throwing meta-contrived strategies at it.

I've used it twice now and for the most part it feels scary than it is but IMO that's the best possible result of a challenge where direct conflict is in play. Vecna is a monster as an environmental threat. Have him attacking a temple or something looking for an obscure piece of knowledge is amazing and practically turn key. At will dispel/CS, healing, teleport, and enough mass damage makes him a nasty threat. Destroying a life time of hallows and wards as he slowly turns everyone into zombies makes him a problem even if he never even acknowledges the party.

To me that what T4 play is about.

[Kane0]

A Level 20 party should beat Vecna. A Level 20 party should be able to beat any lone monster in the game.

A fresh one maybe, I was interested in the same question with a fighter lacking action surge, a pally missing some smite slots, a sorc down some SP and slots, a cleric out of channels, etc.

What is a good way to model a party entering a fight NOT fresh?

[Dork_Forge]

A fresh one maybe, I was interested in the same question with a fighter lacking action surge, a pally missing some smite slots, a sorc down some SP and slots, a cleric out of channels, etc.

What is a good way to model a party entering a fight NOT fresh?

You'd have to create a bunch of levers to pull:

- 10% down on HP, if not then x slots from the healer(s)

- costing either a lot more lower-end resources, or fewer higher-end resources

- More specific, Wizards and Sorcerers either start with a bit less hp, or burn more 1st level slots

Stuff like that