Vecna stats and lore

[Smersh_23]

How would this version of Venca deal with a 20th moon druid that can wild shape to refresh their HPs as a BA. Also, I think it was mentioned he can summon shadows who can drain the STR stat. Does the wild shape reset their strength score when it is dropped to 0? or does the STR drain carry over between the wild shapes?

I'm asking because I'm going to run this for my group and one of them will play a druid, another will play a paladin. The third will play a wizard and the 4th one is undecided atm.


Edit...Also I don't think Vecna can counterspell a wild shaped druid.

[Dork_Forge]

How would this version of Venca deal with a 20th moon druid that can wild shape to refresh their HPs as a BA. Also, I think it was mentioned he can summon shadows who can drain the STR stat. Does the wild shape reset their strength score when it is dropped to 0? or does the STR drain carry over between the wild shapes?

I'm asking because I'm going to run this for my group and one of them will play a druid, another will play a paladin. The third will play a wizard and the 4th one is undecided atm.

The Shadows are a lair action from the adventure, technically not part of his block.

If he prioritised the Druid and got them before they wildshaped, he could probably kill them in one turn. Otherwise it'd be a drawn out thing of gradually damaging the druid shape, with the Druid's companions dying around them and their chances of success dwindling.



You have to kill him fast or not at all.

[Jervis]

How would this version of Venca deal with a 20th moon druid that can wild shape to refresh their HPs as a BA. Also, I think it was mentioned he can summon shadows who can drain the STR stat. Does the wild shape reset their strength score when it is dropped to 0? or does the STR drain carry over between the wild shapes?

I'm asking because I'm going to run this for my group and one of them will play a druid, another will play a paladin. The third will play a wizard and the 4th one is undecided atm.


Edit...Also I don't think Vecna can counterspell a wild shaped druid.

5e has very few rules on this sort of thing but I believe since the Wildshape sets their score to a certain value and very little other than direct damage ports over after the form ends I would rules that Wildshape resets it.

Also yes I don’t believe counterspell works on wildshape

[Dork_Forge]

5e has very few rules on this sort of thing but I believe since the Wildshape sets their score to a certain value and very little other than direct damage ports over after the form ends I would rules that Wildshape resets it.

Also yes I don’t believe counterspell works on wildshape

I think they mean counter spelling a druid that is wildhsaped and disregarding the S and V components of their spells, the answer to that is likely no, and a testament to the wonkiness of 20th level Moon Druids.

[Smersh_23]

I think they mean counter spelling a druid that is wildhsaped and disregarding the S and V components of their spells, the answer to that is likely no, and a testament to the wonkiness of 20th level Moon Druids.

Yes that's exactly what I meant.

I think the druid is that one that concerns me the most. If I ignore the wizard and use the counterspells for him and focus on the druid...While trying to avoid the paladin and whatever is the 4th class. I don't see how Vecna can win as a solo BBEG. The druid has the potential to really mess him up if I don't win initiative and the druid isn't already in wild shape form.

But im not convinced the druid can win either if I drop the other three first. So maybe ignore the druid and count on the 80 hp heal to mitigate his damage and focus on the other members starting with the wizard.

[Dork_Forge]

Yes that's exactly what I meant.

I think the druid is that one that concerns me the most. If I ignore the wizard and use the counterspells for him and focus on the druid...While trying to avoid the paladin and whatever is the 4th class. I don't see how Vecna can win as a solo BBEG. The druid has the potential to really mess him up if I don't win initiative and the druid isn't already in wild shape form.

But im not convinced the druid can win either if I drop the other three first. So maybe ignore the druid and count on the 80 hp heal to mitigate his damage and focus on the other members starting with the wizard.

This is the point that should use the Book of Vile Darkness, but another important answer is that Vecna shouldn't be a solo BBEG, he's a necromancer.

[Chaos Jackal]

Vecna's Dread Counterspell isn't written like counterspell. "...to interrupt a creature he can see that is casting a spell" can have different implications than "when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell". The former can easily be read in a manner to allow Vecna to counter Subtle/Moon spells too. It was under this consideration that I described the block as decently strong a few pages back.

Of course, I also described it as weaker than it might look at first glance and part of the reason is that, while Dread Counterspell may bypass distance as well as Subtle and similar casting, it does not bypass Vecna's 22 Int combined with his inability to upcast that Dread Counterspell. He has an even chance of countering 7ths and less than even against 8ths and 9ths, made worse if the party has something like a Divination or Chronurgy wizard or any other means of forcing rerolls.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Yes that's exactly what I meant.

I think the druid is that one that concerns me the most. If I ignore the wizard and use the counterspells for him and focus on the druid...While trying to avoid the paladin and whatever is the 4th class. I don't see how Vecna can win as a solo BBEG. The druid has the potential to really mess him up if I don't win initiative and the druid isn't already in wild shape form.

But im not convinced the druid can win either if I drop the other three first. So maybe ignore the druid and count on the 80 hp heal to mitigate his damage and focus on the other members starting with the wizard.

In a party with a Paladin included he's putting himself at risk of taking more damage than he heals by going into that range, the party will be pretty condensed to stay within the Paladin's aura. This would normally be a downside but a Circle of Power Paladin is so effective and countering Vecna's primary sources of damage that a party would be suicidal not to group with them.

A Paladin support character with at least two ranged damage powerhouses should be pretty capable of dealing with him. Melee Martials might struggle to deal effective damage because he has access to Fly and probably should be using that to expand the area he can safely teleport to.

Of course, I also described as weaker than it might look at first glance and part of the reason is that, while Dread Counterspell may bypass distance as well as Subtle and similar casting, it does not bypass Vecna's 22 Int combined with his inability to upcast that Dread Counterspell. He has an even chance of countering 7ths and less than even against 8ths and 9ths, made worse if the party has something like a Divination or Chronurgy wizard or any other means of forcing rerolls.

Lore Bard is also a fantastic option, Cutting Words means Vecna's Dread Counterspell is even more likely to fail and Peerless Skill means in the off chance he takes an action to cast an actual spell you're all but guaranteed to counter it.

Actually, nothing stops the Bard from precasting Antimagic Field and suplexing Vecna with expertise in Athletics. If they have taken the Unarmed Fighting Style the bludgeoning damage you deal at the start of the turn isn't from an attack so it bypasses his immunity. Then we cry about his Book of Vile Darkness overcoming the Antimagic Field. Would be funny though.

[Smersh_23]

This is the point that should use the Book of Vile Darkness, but another important answer is that Vecna shouldn't be a solo BBEG, he's a necromancer.

I agree with what you said but my group has no experience with CR26 encounters and are not optimizers. I also have not DM'd T4 before so this is a learning experience for all of us :) So, I will stick to the suggestions in the one shot for this scenario.

I think in a campaign, I would give him a small undead army and Venca would definitely flee for 10 minutes and pop back in after all their buffs dropped and relaxed their guard thinking they were "safe" now...

[Kane0]

Afterthought may have some interesting repercussions for a moon druid, despite the wildshape replacing his HP bar.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Afterthought may have some interesting repercussions for a moon druid, despite the wildshape replacing his HP bar.

It's not much of an interaction, they never regain hit points, their hit point total is replaced.

[stoutstien]

So I ran a simulation with some folks from my Discord Server against Vecna.

TL:DR - It was a cakewalk for him, often overhealing, and I don't think a 4th PC in this circumstance would have really mattered.

The set up:

I took the dimensions of the map from the adventure they put out: 80 feet long and 30 feet wide, featureless blank grid

Vecna started at the far end of the map, with a modest guard of 4 skeletons in the middle, and the players at the far end.

Players were given the 20k, 1 very rare, two rares, and three uncommons suggested by the DMG as posted upthread. They chose their own items.

Spoiler: PCs

Show

Grum (minotaur):

14 BearBarian/6 Swash Rogue uses TWF to increase the chances of Sneak and Rage damage

Had access to flight from 14th level eagle totem

Feats: Defensive Duelist

Items:

Flame Tongue short sword
+1 scimitar
+1 longbow
+1 horn mod
Belt of dwarven kind
Belt of Frost Giant Str

---------------------

Hazel (V. Human):

16 Horizon Walker Ranger/4 Echo Knight Fighter

Feats: Sharpshooter, Piercer

Items:

Oathbow
Armor of Poison Resistance
Cloak of Displacement
Circlet of Blasting
Dust of Sneezing and choking
Goggles of night


------------------

Max (Silver Dragonborn Fizbans)

Straight 20 Zealot (24 Str and Con)

Feats: Mobile

Items:

Greataxe of Sharpness
Ring of Free Action
Boots of Speed
Broom of Flying
Stone of Good luck
Keoghtom's Ointment

Initiative order:

22 Skeletons
21 Grum
14 Vecna
13 Hazel
13 Max

Despite Hazel having a +5 Dex, and Max having a +2 with advantage on Initiative, Vecna managed a decent placing with a middling score. Yes, the dice could have fallen differently, but they didn't and this was the order. Those writing off his +3 Dex should think twice, whilst averages help us, the individual experience is rarely average.


I don't have a round by round blow-by-blow, but here are the highlights:

Round one saw the utter destruction of the skeletons after landing only two arrows, one on Grum and I think one on Hazel.

Hazel got hit with Rotten Fate twice, failing both times with a +4 Con, I rolled 98 and 106 damage respectively, the second one downed her for the first time. She would later get hit by it again and not get back up.

Grum weathered most damage well, using Uncanny Dodge and Defensive Duelist to mitigate damage effectively, the psychic teleport damage was what he hated most. He was the last to 'fall.'

I used Flight of the Damned once, hitting all three and frightening Grum, this left him unable to close for one round and lef using his +1 bow to attack instead.

On Round 4 maybe, Max got Dominated and turned on Grum.

It was over by the end of round 5.

Thoughts on Vecna as the DM:

He had it easy, his heal was partially being wasted half the time. The party could have been more efficient and tactical, but they didn't do horribly either. He hit hard enough with Rotten Fate that he rather quickly downed a high Con martial, and the beauty of his action economy is that he was damaging players near constantly in different ways. His teleport on a reaction denied a few hits due to lack of movement speed to close again. My only criticism is I'd like him to have access to Shield, even if it's only twice.

From talking with the players and their reactions during the game: The multiple reactions per turn really messed with them and knocked them off balance. The Ranger would have preferred a larger map (she didn't know that Rotten fate has a range of 120ft, and still doesn't), the Barbarians felt the smaller map made it easier to keep up with him. They felt that he was a difficult and scary fight, but that he would be doable with some four (or more) player parties playing tactically. They found the notion that he was being dismissed out of hand very odd after having had to fight him.

I intend to run him again as a test, but in a more fleshed out scenario, probably just running the full adventure from Beyond.

The experiment confirmed my suspicions about the block, it's so unusual and unexpected that players were caught off guard and off-put by the sheer number of damage sources and effects being leveled at them. His healing is adequate to keep him a threat ongoingly.

I'm curious how he does in a larger space, and possible with a Paladin in the party. I'd also like to see Dread Counterspell get used, I only had to use the rebuke reaction, which worked very well.

Just had a similar result last night with a 5 man test one shot with Vecna. He is just different enough that the party couldn't break his tactics in time. They ended up using DI to teleport away dragging 3/5 of the party dead with them.
The group isn't optimized but are generally well put together. Didn't help the fighter got dominated before she could act and basically tore the wizard in half thanks to dread CS locking out shield.

[Dante]

I think they mean counter spelling a druid that is wildhsaped and disregarding the S and V components of their spells, the answer to that is likely no, and a testament to the wonkiness of 20th level Moon Druids.

Off-topic: in that case, wildshaping isn't even necessary. 20th level druids get to skip V, S, and non-expensive M components even in human shape.

Vecna's Dread Counterspell isn't written like counterspell. "...to interrupt a creature he can see that is casting a spell" can have different implications than "when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell". The former can easily be read in a manner to allow Vecna to counter Subtle/Moon spells too.

So can the latter in fact.

How obvious spellcasting is is totally a DM call either way. When a Mind Flayer Arcanist disguised as a human casts Dominate Person without components, it could be totally imperceptible until an hour later when the dominated PC stabs everyone in the back when they're at their most vulnerable, or it could be immediately obvious that someone is casting a spell because torches flicker and everyone present tastes mint (this optional rule is from Dragon Kings--every caster has their own individual telltales and I picked darkness and mint for this mind flayer). In the latter interpretation allowing Counterspell is 100% reasonable, and arguably that interpretation leads to a better game (more choices, fewer gotchas).

Lore Bard is also a fantastic option, Cutting Words means Vecna's Dread Counterspell is even more likely to fail and Peerless Skill means in the off chance he takes an action to cast an actual spell you're all but guaranteed to counter it.

Cutting Words doesn't work on creatures immune to charm.

For Counterspell you'd have to upcast Counterspell to avoid Dread Counterspell, or have two Counterspellers.

[Chaos Jackal]

So can the latter in fact.

How obvious spellcasting is is totally a DM call either way. When a Mind Flayer Arcanist disguised as a human casts Dominate Person without components, it could be totally imperceptible until an hour later when the dominated PC stabs everyone in the back when they're at their most vulnerable, or it could be immediately obvious that someone is casting a spell because torches flicker and everyone present tastes mint (this optional rule is from Dragon Kings--every caster has their own individual telltales and I picked darkness and mint for this mind flayer). In the latter interpretation allowing Counterspell is 100% reasonable, and arguably that interpretation leads to a better game (more choices, fewer gotchas).

We're getting a bit off-topic here, but no, the the latter doesn't because, even if the language is a bit ambiguous, we've got SAC confirmation on its interaction with Subtle spell (and through that, other means of skipping components) and SAC, unlike tweets, has official rulings. You're not countering something that has no components.

Yeah, DMs can and will use different tells and rulings regarding how obvious a spell is, but that and whether or not it's better are outside the scope of this discussion; we're trying to use a common framework here, not everybody's potential houserule or 3rd-party optional rule. I get you, I've seen counterspell's interaction ruled a few different ways over time, but, by default, no components means no counterspell.

Vecna's Dread Counterspell, however, uses different language and isn't counterspell either, so there's something to be said about how that interacts with component-less spells. You can overcome Dread Counterspell anyway through various means, but that's one otherwise foolproof way out of the picture if Vecna needs to just see the target and doesn't care about components.

[Rafaelfras]

I agree with no components no counter spell, dread or otherwise
With no components you are casting but he is not seeing

So I ran a simulation with some folks from my Discord Server against Vecna.

TL:DR - It was a cakewalk for him, often overhealing, and I don't think a 4th PC in this circumstance would have really mattered.

Yeah a 3 person group would be very detrimental to the players side.

With 3 reactions he can spare one for each and will be able to counter everything you do and you will not be able to put pressure on him wasting a reaction

[Dante]

We're getting a bit off-topic here, but no, the the latter doesn't because, even if the language is a bit ambiguous, we've got SAC confirmation on its interaction with Subtle spell (and through that, other means of skipping components) and SAC, unlike tweets, has official rulings.

No. Even Adventurer's League doesn't treat Sage Advice as "official".

https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/d...guidev11_0.pdf
While they aren’t official rules that must be followed, the Sage Advice column, tweets from the D&D Team on Twitter, or even discussions with other DMs on your favorite social media platform can provide good insight on how others adjudicated a particular issue. The rules as written in the rulebooks always take precedence; exceptions are noted in official D&D Adventurers League resources, such as the FAQ.

Emphasis mine. DM interpretation of PHB rules is what's binding, even in AL much less in home games.

Yeah, DMs can and will use different tells and rulings regarding how obvious a spell is, but that and whether or not it's better are outside the scope of this discussion; we're trying to use a common framework here, not everybody's potential houserule or 3rd-party optional rule. I get you, I've seen counterspell's interaction ruled a few different ways over time, but, by default, no components means no counterspell.

Vecna's Dread Counterspell, however, uses different language and isn't counterspell either, so there's something to be said about how that interacts with component-less spells. You can overcome Dread Counterspell anyway through various means, but that's one otherwise foolproof way out of the picture if Vecna needs to just see the target and doesn't care about components.

Sure, but you could do that no matter how Dread Counterspell was worded. There's no need to debate RAW with yourself.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Cutting Words doesn't work on creatures immune to charm.

For Counterspell you'd have to upcast Counterspell to avoid Dread Counterspell, or have two Counterspellers.

I had a thought in the back of my mind that was the case but in my double checking I just glossed over it. I'd say Lore Bard is still a strong candidate considering their versatile spell options.

[Keravath]

I didn't read the entire thread - just the first page.

The Vecna stat block looks interesting but it strongly reduces the magic/wizard element of being a lich in favor of some challenging to deal with at-will abilities. However, the significant lack of magic really takes away from the power these sorts of opponents are supposed to have against large groups of creatures. (Vecna's spellcasting is pathetic).

Lots of teleporting may make him hard to pin down but most of these and the special damaging abilities require "a location or creature that he can see" - a level 1 fog cloud blocks most of these.

The limited spellcasting is a joke - Dimension door 2 times/day. Dominate monster 1/day. Honestly, he doesn't seem to be any more than a 7th level spellcaster (with fewer slots) though he can fire off as many 8d6 lightning bolts as he likes.

In comparison, look at the Archlich Acerak stat block in ToA. Acerak should have some better spells prepared but it starts off with 2 9th level slots, 2 8th level slots and 3 7th level slots - better AC and more hit points than this Vecna stat block. Acerak is also only rated a CR23 in ToA.

Both are vulnerable to fog cloud + grapple though Vecna might be able to escape 2 times/day using dimension door - on the other hand, Acerak could manage that 16 times if someone added Dimension door to his spell list. (Acerak has neither Dimension Door nor Misty Step on his spell list - lol).

Finally, Acerak has a 27 int vs Vecna's 22 ... so clearly Acerak is the more intelligent lich :)

[Psyren]

DM interpretation of PHB rules is what's binding, even in AL much less in home games.

Yes, obviously the DM's interpretation is paramount even in AL. But I'm a lot more likely to influence my DM or change their mind on something by showing them a Sage Advice or a JC tweet on the subject, than by pleading my case with nothing.

[Chaos Jackal]

No. Even Adventurer's League doesn't treat Sage Advice as "official".

https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/d...guidev11_0.pdf
While they aren’t official rules that must be followed, the Sage Advice column, tweets from the D&D Team on Twitter, or even discussions with other DMs on your favorite social media platform can provide good insight on how others adjudicated a particular issue. The rules as written in the rulebooks always take precedence; exceptions are noted in official D&D Adventurers League resources, such as the FAQ.

Emphasis mine. DM interpretation of PHB rules is what's binding, even in AL much less in home games.

I'm not questioning DMs having the final say. Still, the SAC is official rulings (as mentioned in the SAC document itself, unlike the unofficial tweets) and frankly I could care less about AL's rules. All I need is a common framework. Subtle spells bypassing counterspell is the general accepted interpretation of how the spell is written, the unofficial stance of the designer, the official ruling made in the FAQ document and is even mentioned in XGE's suggested rules. People have been treating it like that in discussions for years, it's the expected interaction and the reason why Subtle Spell has traditionally been one of the few arguments in defense of the sorcerer.

I'd be all for discussing ways to run counterspell or anything else in the game in a different thread, but here's not the place. And either way, I digress. The purpose of the thread here is Vecna, not counterspell. So I won't be taking this line any further.

Sure, but you could do that no matter how Dread Counterspell was worded. There's no need to debate RAW with yourself.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about. I merely pointed out that Dread Counterspell seems to not care about components the way it is written and thus bypasses one of the limitations of the standard counterspell. Meaning that a sorcerer with Subtle Spell or someone with Metamagic Adept might potentially not be able to ignore Dread Counterspell, meaning that what could otherwise be a foolproof way of overcoming the reaction isn't gonna work.

If you agree that Dread Counterspell is written in a way that allows it to ignore Subtle Spell (and casting in Wild Shape and anything of the kind), good. If you don't, also good, though in either case I'd like to know why. If your take is simply "a DM can rule it however they want because they're the DM", well, you're right, but that goes for everything and isn't adding anything here. And if you don't care about my line of thought, why reply to it?

Oh well. Back to what I was saying, the way Dread Counterspell is worded arguably allows it to ignore Subtle Spell, so that's a slight point in favor of the statblock, though still, the fact that Vecna needs to make a check at only +6 for most spell levels is a big weakness of the block. Vecna having only 22 Int isn't just annoying for flavor reasons, it's also a big dent in his defenses. Spells are quite likely to get through that, especially if there are multiple casters, and at the level they'll be they can be pretty big. Same goes for dispel magic; it would've been much better if the at-will dispelling Vecna has wasn't relying on a +6 Int when it's liable to face things like simulacrum or shapechange.

[noob]

I was imagining: what if we used the most popular classes (assuming the dnd player likes to follow the "at most 1 of each class" scheme for "having a rounded out team that can deal with lots of situations" which is a standard way of doing things because it roughly works) to decide a team to use as a benchmark for vecna?
So most popular class based team would be champion Fighter, thief rogue, fiend warlock, the rest from [life cleric,berserker barbarian, evocation wizard] in any order.(typically the cliche in fiction is a 4 player team but I do not know how big the average party is)
And what is the most popular race for each of those classes?

[x3n0n]

I was imagining: what if we used the most popular classes (assuming the dnd player likes to follow the "at most 1 of each class" scheme for "having a rounded out team that can deal with lots of situations" which is a standard way of doing things because it roughly works) to decide a team to use as a benchmark for vecna?
So most popular class based team would be champion Fighter, thief rogue, fiend warlock, the rest from [life cleric,berserker barbarian, evocation wizard] in any order.(typically the cliche in fiction is a 4 player team but I do not know how big the average party is)
And what is the most popular race for each of those classes?

IIRC, Jeremy Crawford and D&D Beyond both said that Human is the most popular race by a significant margin.

Spin-off thread from yesterday: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...atch-Challenge

The free Basic Rules (https://dnd.wizards.com/what-is-dnd/basic-rules) contains rules for
* (Basic) Human, High/Wood Elf, Hill/Mountain Dwarf, and Lightfoot/Stout Halfling
* Levels 1-20 of Champion, Thief, Life Cleric, and Evoker
* A selection of the Wizard and Cleric spell lists at all levels: notably, none of the broken ones, but most (although not all) of the non-broken staples
* A *very* limited selection of magic items
* No feats, no multiclassing

@PhoenixPhyre proposed several levels of rules in that thread:
* Basic as above
* (Not on his list: System Reference Document, which is what D&D Beyond misleadingly calls the basic rules, no feats, no multiclassing)
* PHB, no feats, no multiclassing, no "exploits" (e.g. wishulacrum)
* (Also not on his list: SRD with multiclassing; only SRD feat is Grappler, IIRC)
* Full PHB, no exploits

I think the parameters in that thread make for a good baseline:
* 4 20th-level characters built with those rules and point buy
* Each gets 1 Very Rare, 2 Rare, and 3 Uncommon items from the appropriate ruleset, and many thousands of GP (DMG 4th-tier "high magic world" character wealth guidelines).

[Dante]

One of the weird consequences of Vecna's not-really-a-spellcaster design is that he can (technically, as written) turn on Invisibility and just start spamming necrotic magic without breaking Invisibility. He loses the opportunity to attack twice with Afterthought (because attacking or casting a spell breaks Invisibility) but he can still do all of his reactions and bonus attacks, and PCs will be at disadvantage to attack him and limited in the spells they can use.

Bizarre, huh? As a DM I don't know if I like that. It seems too haphazard.

Furthermore, Vecna is not immune to psychic damage, so when he uses his bonus action teleport... he can if necessary target *himself* for 3d6 psychic in order to regain 80 HP. Useful, but weird. Essentially it's 70 HP/round regen that requires sight and a bonus action, +3d6 HP if other creatures are nearby.

[noob]

IIRC, Jeremy Crawford and D&D Beyond both said that Human is the most popular race by a significant margin.

Spin-off thread from yesterday: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...atch-Challenge

The free Basic Rules (https://dnd.wizards.com/what-is-dnd/basic-rules) contains rules for
* (Basic) Human, High/Wood Elf, Hill/Mountain Dwarf, and Lightfoot/Stout Halfling
* Levels 1-20 of Champion, Thief, Life Cleric, and Evoker
* A selection of the Wizard and Cleric spell lists at all levels: notably, none of the broken ones, but most (although not all) of the non-broken staples
* A *very* limited selection of magic items
* No feats, no multiclassing

@PhoenixPhyre proposed several levels of rules in that thread:
* Basic as above
* (Not on his list: System Reference Document, which is what D&D Beyond misleadingly calls the basic rules, no feats, no multiclassing)
* PHB, no feats, no multiclassing, no "exploits" (e.g. wishulacrum)
* (Also not on his list: SRD with multiclassing; only SRD feat is Grappler, IIRC)
* Full PHB, no exploits

I think the parameters in that thread make for a good baseline:
* 4 20th-level characters built with those rules and point buy
* Each gets 1 Very Rare, 2 Rare, and 3 Uncommon items from the appropriate ruleset, and many thousands of GP (DMG 4th-tier "high magic world" character wealth guidelines).

So with basic rules a normal team would be something like Human champion, human thief,human life cleric, human evoker with stuff like a +n sword as a magical item?

[x3n0n]

So with basic rules a normal team would be something like Human champion, human thief,human life cleric, human evoker with stuff like a +n sword as a magical item?

Something like that, but elves and dwarves are on the table. My sample builds in that thread are
Wood Elf Champion Archer
Wood Elf Thief
Hill Dwarf Life Cleric
Mountain Dwarf Evoker

All are wearing +1 or +2 armor and a Ring of Protection and Gauntlets of Ogre Power and a +1 or +3 weapon, then a mishmash of stuff.

[PhoenixPhyre]

So with basic rules a normal team would be something like Human champion, human thief,human life cleric, human evoker with stuff like a +n sword as a magical item?

I'm not sure why you'd go human for the basic rules because, remember, you can't use variant human (feats aren't part of the picture).

One other note about my proposed things is that you can't buy magic items with your cash, so wizards are restricted to whatever 44 spells they chose during level up + spending their magic items on scrolls (which they'd then have to spend cash to scribe). Still gives a wealth of options, so that particular restriction (on wizards) is fairly small in effect.

[Dante]

One other note about my proposed things is that you can't buy magic items with your cash, so wizards are restricted to whatever 44 spells they chose during level up + spending their magic items on scrolls (which they'd then have to spend cash to scribe). Still gives a wealth of options, so that particular restriction (on wizards) is fairly small in effect.

Especially since Basic only *has* 64 wizard non-cantrip spells in the first place, and some of those are lemons like Time Stop, Spider Climb, Protection From Energy, and Imprisonment. It shouldn't be too hard to find 24-28 spells that you're willing to skip.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Especially since Basic only *has* 64 wizard non-cantrip spells in the first place, and some of those are lemons like Time Stop, Spider Climb, Protection From Energy, and Imprisonment. It shouldn't be too hard to find 24-28 spells that you're willing to skip.

I just want to point out that only having 64 wizard spells, while it seems like such an imposition vs the 300-odd (well over 200 in the PHB alone), that represents something like 60% of the entire cleric list, including all main-line sources. Not that it matters much, but it does give a different perspective.

[Dante]

I just want to point out that only having 64 wizard spells, while it seems like such an imposition vs the 300-odd (well over 200 in the PHB alone), that represents something like 60% of the entire cleric list, including all main-line sources. Not that it matters much, but it does give a different perspective.

Eh. Picking 24 spells out of 64 to skip is painful but doable. Picking zero spells to skip out of a hundred-plus is trivial.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Eh. Picking 24 spells out of 64 to skip is painful but doable. Picking zero spells to skip out of a hundred-plus is trivial.

I wasn't even talking about that. More the feeling--wizards have so many spells (using all the published material) that being restricted to 64 is painful. But clerics only have ~110 total, and gain them at much slower rate. And they still have to pick which 25 they're going to prepare each day (just like the wizard). And have to prepare their ritual spells, which wizards don't.