Percy Jackson Mafia 2

[Xumtiil]

Trying to parse the influx of Rogan votes but also have invested far too much of my afternoon in this game and should take a break.

Are you suggesting we should lynch you instead so you have time to study?

[Rogan]

Well that was a lot of posts all of a sudden. I only skimmed the last page or so, it's my lunch time and I'd like to actually eat lunch instead of just playing Werewolf.
(Also speaking of timezones, EOD is 7am my time so I'm going to miss the last 6-7 hours of each day (again). Y'all need to stop putting EOD in my early morning. )


As far as I recall, at the time he was the only person with any non-meme reason behind the vote (besides Bat's vote on me, which I wasn't going to join as my name is neither AV nor Xihirli.)


I'd agree with the people who said "one power for the Child of Neptune plus three other powers" is a reasonable interpretation of this question.

I don't think Rogan jumping on the initial "slip" was necessarily wolfy, a townie asking this question could very easily not have realized that it implied four total powers.
However, I do think Rogan seems to be ignoring the "he probably read it as 3+1" responses, even though he answered some people who said that. Also it's strange that he's suspicious of Book but he's still keeping his meme vote on Taffimai. Combined, that seems to me like he's a wolf trying to get a mislynch rather than a townie genuinely searching for wolves.


Debating between voting Rogan because suspicions versus voting AV to tie up the wagons. I guess tying the wagons and watching vote movement doesn't really work as well now that I've made it clear I'd rather lynch Rogan.

...oh look, I previewed and there were 4 more posts. Amusingly, I think AV is still one vote behind Rogan before this post, so the above still makes sense.

Enjoy your meal.

I don't recall a reason for Cao at the moment? Maybe I've missed something? I also have to admit, I don't know the exact vote count at this time, so I don't know which options you actually had.

I don't disagree that this interpretation is unreasonable. But I definitly do disagree that my initial interpretation is some shady attempt to get Book misslynched and totaly unreasonable. In fact, if Book turns out to be a wolf, I'd like an excuse from bladescape.
So, why am I not voting there? Well, I have told you what pinged me about his post. Bat gave some vague support, but also some counterpoint. Basically everybody else is telling me that I'm wrong, in various degrees of certainty and with differnt motives assigned to it. So it's not worth to push this. Creating discussion is.
Why not someone else?
The other case I've seen is against you and I disagree with it. AV is or rather was the leading wagon, as far as I can tell, purely for meme reasons and I don't like this at all. Xum has some points against him, but I won't vote there before I checked some other parts of Afterlive.

Also, I'm really curious to see if my vote on Taffi is actually valid. If we have a clear cut lynch at the end of the day, I might end up on her. If my vote actually matters, I'll move it. Until then, I won't bother.

Plus, even if you hadn't a clear cut preference, I'd encurage you to think of other people as well instead of the top wagons. Especially when there are no good reasons at all for one of them (it's AV I'm talking about).

I think it might be because it's become a trend to kill AV off early in order to remove a good player from the board, both from townies and wolves. In addition, there have been times where AV ended up doing all the heavy lifting- my guess would be, she doesn't think it's worth it to put in effort D/N 1.

That or she's got a power that works better if she's lynched/killed earlier.

Iirc both me and another player remarked on how that may have become a bad habit (getting AV killed early).

A power that works while dead would mean neutral, unless I'm missing something.
So, the more likely explanation is the other one. I agree it's a bad habit. But I don't like AVs habit either. When I didn't want to play, I took a break. A smal one, but hey... AV on the other hand is constantly jumping into the games like there was no other choise, but either is not motivated to play or fakes not being motivated. Either you want to play, then go on and play. Or you don't want to do this, then take a break.
The same thing to a lesser degree is true about some other players, who will have single digit post counts by day 2. (Yes, I'm looking at Book right now)

Caoimhin - the initial AV votes are because last game AV was the narrator and a serial killer, and won. Xumtiil and I were both in endgame and as such were/are salty about it.

Rogan - my question was on how serious your "who is your top wolfread and why is it Elenna?" thing was.

And based on track record, bladescape has pretty consistently accurately read you but was responsible for Elenna's mislynch last game. But also his read is a fairly minor factor in mine on you and non-existent in my Elenna read.

AV - you are utterly evil.

Trying to parse the influx of Rogan votes but also have invested far too much of my afternoon in this game and should take a break.

Yeah, thats the question I thoght I missed and answered later, in a reply to Bat.
In short: I was wondering if he still had Elenna as top suspect. And I was wondering why, cause I thougt he said my case was slightly better (while still being bad).

Are you suggesting we should lynch you instead so you have time to study?

VETO! Not that I could enforce it, but...
Lynch Snow if you think her behaviour is scummy. We don't need another Meme wagon.

[AvatarVecna]

I think you are oddly pessimistic. Also, I start to wonder:
Do you like mafia games or not? You are always so entusiastic in the recruitment thread, don't pay any attention there afterwards and your activity on day 1 is irregular at best.

I like playing town. I like getting deep into analysis. I like private conversations. I like poking at people's statements and seeing how they react. I like puzzling things out with the limited information I have. I like sharpening my townie skills, because becoming a better townie makes me better at pretending to be one in the theoretically-rare instance when I'm on scumteam instead.

Spoiler

Show

"The Thing" started Dec 2020. 18 months ago.

The Thing: Town (culted last second)

Smugglers And Scalywags: Narrator

Pelor The Burning Hate: Town (win, but was inactive)

Upick: Serial Killer (won)

Stranger Things: Town Networker (lynched D1)

Yu-Gi-Oh!: Alpha Wolf (lost)

Percy Jackson: Seer (died N1, rezzed D3, died again N4)

Craziest Idea: Mafia Strongman (died N1)

Afterlife: Narrator

Love Letter Mafia: Wolf (won)

Upick 2: Town JOAT (died N3)

Afterlife 2: Narrator (lynched D4)

Yu-Gi-Oh! GX: Alpha Wolf (lost)

Dead Of Winter: Wolf (lost)

Fallout 2: Seer (died N1)

Words Of Power: Town Networker (lynched D1, altho I provoked that so I could learn what my power was and potentially use it to help town)

Among Who? Among Us!: Town (died D2, along with basically everyone else)

Wilder West: Town (lynched D2 by own volition, my power was more bastard than most and I was bitter about it)

Afterlife 3: Narrator/Serial Killer (won)

19 games over 18 months. Those are:

• 4: Town w/ poor performance (UGH)
• 3: Wolf w/ poor performance (ugh)
• 3: Town, but killed early (sigh)
• 4: Narrator (eh)
• 1: Serial Killer (nerve-wracking but rewarding)
• 2: Wolf w/ good performance (nice)
• 2: Town w/ good performance (excellent)

9 town games out of 15 where I wasn't narrator.

Died D1, died D1, died N1, died N1, died D2, died D2, died N3, died N4, "Luigi wins by doing nothing", and "Luigi wins by getting culted".

Yes that's 8 deaths and 2 survives across 9 games, because in one of them I died twice. And the two games I survived to the end as town? I won, but I didn't deserve to.

Enjoyable games:

1. Percy Jackson. I died N1, but a necromancer let me communicate with the living, and eventually return. This allowed for some serious networking that gave town victory. This good game is slightly tainted by how my emotional outbursts in dead chat drove away a would-be player from the community.
2. Love Letter is the best wolf game I've ever played and I doubt I'll ever match it.
3. Words Of Power saw me die D1 as a gambit so I could learn what my power even was, and potentially leverage it to help town. It was essentially a necromancy power, letting me communicate with the living. I like to think it was extremely helpful in catching wolves.
4. Yu-Gi-Oh! GX. Played a decent wolf game, ended up winning. Feels nice.
5. Upick, where I got to play an overpowered Serial Killer in a game full of broken powers. That game kinda fried my nerves a bit, but I won in the end and it felt great to win as SK. It's worth the stress, but only barely. Still overall positive.

That's it. 5 positive games across 18 months. The two that were as town? I died before D2, and the game was only enjoyable because the mechanics made it so that being dead didn't stop me from participating.

I hope you'll forgive me for sticking to my "I'll start putting in real effort when I live to see D2" rule, even if it makes me seem pessimistic and unenthused. EDIT: Especially given that fact that people were making agreements to lynch me D1 this game no matter what was going on before the recruitment thread for PJ2 was even up.

[Snowblaze]

Are you suggesting we should lynch you instead so you have time to study?

Nope. Please don't. Trying to get me killed tends to make me more active, and also I've now survived the worst of the exams.

Do you have thoughts on Rogan? Or anyone else for that matter? (Correct me if you've posted them and I just missed them in the rush of posts.)

Rogan, how many wolves do you think are on your wagon? (That's bladescape, BCH, Zelphas, me, Caoimhin and Elenna aorn.) Who are those wolves and why?

AV, sorry if my voting you/talking about getting you killed D1 influenced your frustration. ftr once I got over the initial salt about last game I didn't particularly want you dead, it was just a convenient place to park an RVS vote. I don't support killing people for the memes. (If I did I'd probably have to self-vote!)

Might skim through some ISOs and/or reread stuff to get a better idea of people's stances.

- - - Updated - - -

Right, ISOish things starting from the lowest poster, in this case Grand Arbiter. Who is null. Not interested in killing him D1 since it's a while since he's played, and I kind of want him/Elenna/bladescape/Xihirli to be town so we can avenge our previous defeat together.

Which in my ideal fantasy world makes wolfteam Batcathat/AV/flat_footed/Rogan as people mainly responsible for our being screwed over.

I don't think we live in my ideal fantasy world.

- - - Updated - - -

Zelphas's first post gave me gut pings, but I can't quite pin down why and iirc I had gut pings from town-at-the-time Zelphas in Words of Power. I initially had them slightly above null because I liked their taking the initiative with a Rogan vote, but on reread I'm retracting that. In town!Rogan worlds it could easily be an opportunistic wolf.

Zelphas, what do you make of the large amounts of support for the Rogan wagon? Do you think there are wolves on it?

- - - Updated - - -

Jeen ended up as above null for their suggestion of killing people for information aligning with town!them from last game. On reread Rogan seems a surprising omission from the list of people whose death would give information (though granted that was before he became a consensus suspect). Jeen, can you explain why you didn't think Rogan's death would give us much information?

[AvatarVecna]

AV, sorry if my voting you/talking about getting you killed D1 influenced your frustration. ftr once I got over the initial salt about last game I didn't particularly want you dead, it was just a convenient place to park an RVS vote. I don't support killing people for the memes. (If I did I'd probably have to self-vote!)

Eh don't worry about it. A kill on me is certainly warranted after that last game. I'm not too steamed about all this cuz deadchat discussions can be fulfilling. Wouldn't have brought any of this up, except someone had to ask.

[Xumtiil]

Do you have thoughts on Rogan? Or anyone else for that matter? (Correct me if you've posted them and I just missed them in the rush of posts.)

I know Rogan likes to bluff as a wolf. The only game I've played with them was as w/w buddies. I'm biased in thinking they're wolfy, but my gut says this entire book wombat / Rogan is likely overblown. That said, there's no point in me jumping to Rogan to test my wolfy suspicions - he's already the lead wagon, and I don't have (m)any other reads yet. As much as I sympathize with AV, I'm not going to switch away from them since I really don't have any better currently. Hoping to see some activity from the inactive/low posters.

[JeenLeen]

Jeen ended up as above null for their suggestion of killing people for information aligning with town!them from last game. On reread Rogan seems a surprising omission from the list of people whose death would give information (though granted that was before he became a consensus suspect). Jeen, can you explain why you didn't think Rogan's death would give us much information?

I definitely think Rogan's death will give information now with all the discussion and votes on him, but he didn't really ping me as a topic of interest or someone who said something odd when I made that post with my vote. I admit I hadn't read everything carefully, so that nothing he said clicked as wolfy or having info-yielding-interactions to me... could be he hadn't done it yet, or I just missed it.

[JeenLeen]

So, in the interest of creating some discussion (so Snow doesn't need to do this and can study):

Book imagine you are a child of Neptune. Which 3 powers do you pick and why?
Elenna did you sleep well last night?
GA since I don't know you: give me a sentence which describes your approach to this kind of games. And as a bonus, ask me a question and I swear, I'll answer truthfully. I reserve the right to answer in a way which won't be helpful

On the topic of Rogan: I can see this sort of questioning as suspicious.
I think, mostly, it bugs me me as a wolf trying to seem like they're distancing so we suspect those they question. (Or WIFOM, we think that's what they want, so we don't actually vote their scumbuddy.) Especially makes sense that Grand Arbiter is wolf if Rogan is wolf, since you can trust your scumbuddy not to simply ask "Are you scum?" or some variant.
On the other hand, if they are scumbuddies, Grand Arbiter's noted in previous games that he doesn't lie. He'll use wordplay and deceit, but not outright lie, and I've seen him admit to being scum to hold to this. So something in it seems odd/risky if they preplanned anything.

Eh, my thoughts are very unclear and I'm distracted by some work stuff, but now that I remember it's Rogan who asked this, and if I'm reading correctly it's him who led the suspicion on Book Wombat for how his question was answered, I'm rather happy with the Rogan vote today.
I'm still going to leave my vote on Batcathat for now, in part because the Rogan vote is so high anyway, in part because I'd like some votes elsewhere D2 to see if anyone tries anything.

[Rogan]

I like playing town. I like getting deep into analysis. I like private conversations. I like poking at people's statements and seeing how they react. I like puzzling things out with the limited information I have. I like sharpening my townie skills, because becoming a better townie makes me better at pretending to be one in the theoretically-rare instance when I'm on scumteam instead.

Spoiler

Show

"The Thing" started Dec 2020. 18 months ago.

The Thing: Town (culted last second)

Smugglers And Scalywags: Narrator

Pelor The Burning Hate: Town (win, but was inactive)

Upick: Serial Killer (won)

Stranger Things: Town Networker (lynched D1)

Yu-Gi-Oh!: Alpha Wolf (lost)

Percy Jackson: Seer (died N1, rezzed D3, died again N4)

Craziest Idea: Mafia Strongman (died N1)

Afterlife: Narrator

Love Letter Mafia: Wolf (won)

Upick 2: Town JOAT (died N3)

Afterlife 2: Narrator (lynched D4)

Yu-Gi-Oh! GX: Alpha Wolf (lost)

Dead Of Winter: Wolf (lost)

Fallout 2: Seer (died N1)

Words Of Power: Town Networker (lynched D1, altho I provoked that so I could learn what my power was and potentially use it to help town)

Among Who? Among Us!: Town (died D2, along with basically everyone else)

Wilder West: Town (lynched D2 by own volition, my power was more bastard than most and I was bitter about it)

Afterlife 3: Narrator/Serial Killer (won)

19 games over 18 months. Those are:

• 4: Town w/ poor performance (UGH)
• 3: Wolf w/ poor performance (ugh)
• 3: Town, but killed early (sigh)
• 4: Narrator (eh)
• 1: Serial Killer (nerve-wracking but rewarding)
• 2: Wolf w/ good performance (nice)
• 2: Town w/ good performance (excellent)

9 town games out of 15 where I wasn't narrator.

Died D1, died D1, died N1, died N1, died D2, died D2, died N3, died N4, "Luigi wins by doing nothing", and "Luigi wins by getting culted".

Yes that's 8 deaths and 2 survives across 9 games, because in one of them I died twice. And the two games I survived to the end as town? I won, but I didn't deserve to.

Enjoyable games:

1. Percy Jackson. I died N1, but a necromancer let me communicate with the living, and eventually return. This allowed for some serious networking that gave town victory. This good game is slightly tainted by how my emotional outbursts in dead chat drove away a would-be player from the community.
2. Love Letter is the best wolf game I've ever played and I doubt I'll ever match it.
3. Words Of Power saw me die D1 as a gambit so I could learn what my power even was, and potentially leverage it to help town. It was essentially a necromancy power, letting me communicate with the living. I like to think it was extremely helpful in catching wolves.
4. Yu-Gi-Oh! GX. Played a decent wolf game, ended up winning. Feels nice.
5. Upick, where I got to play an overpowered Serial Killer in a game full of broken powers. That game kinda fried my nerves a bit, but I won in the end and it felt great to win as SK. It's worth the stress, but only barely. Still overall positive.

That's it. 5 positive games across 18 months. The two that were as town? I died before D2, and the game was only enjoyable because the mechanics made it so that being dead didn't stop me from participating.

I hope you'll forgive me for sticking to my "I'll start putting in real effort when I live to see D2" rule, even if it makes me seem pessimistic and unenthused. EDIT: Especially given that fact that people were making agreements to lynch me D1 this game no matter what was going on before the recruitment thread for PJ2 was even up.

I was hoping you would have enjoyed UPick2 as well, despite the rather unfortunate clash we had d2. Sorry for this (again). While dying n3 seems bad, the game had taken a significant turn at this time, so it felt like you were active till the end.
Otherwise... I kind of can see your point. But I also feel like your stance of not being active day 1 is not that helpful. Of course you risk drawing attention and getting killed even faster, but I don't think making a show out of not wanting to play is a kind of self-fullfilling prophecy.
And sorry again for killing you n1 in the first instance of this game. At least, this was a game you had fun playing.

Nope. Please don't. Trying to get me killed tends to make me more active, and also I've now survived the worst of the exams.

Do you have thoughts on Rogan? Or anyone else for that matter? (Correct me if you've posted them and I just missed them in the rush of posts.)

Rogan, how many wolves do you think are on your wagon? (That's bladescape, BCH, Zelphas, me, Caoimhin and Elenna aorn.) Who are those wolves and why?

AV, sorry if my voting you/talking about getting you killed D1 influenced your frustration. ftr once I got over the initial salt about last game I didn't particularly want you dead, it was just a convenient place to park an RVS vote. I don't support killing people for the memes. (If I did I'd probably have to self-vote!)

Might skim through some ISOs and/or reread stuff to get a better idea of people's stances.

Can confirm, Snow really gets active when she gets pressure. Which is a bad thing when she has importat RL obligations. So, don't pressure her for the memes.

Good question about the wolves on my wagon. I guess 1 or maybe 2, but I doubt they would put more eggs into the same basket. About the who...
Bladescape was the first to vote there. I don't like the way he phrased the case, but it feels a bit too aggressive for a wolf.
BCH feels a bit opportunistic. He agreed that I might have a point on Book, but is now voting for me.
Zelphas... I have a hard time remembering anything about him. Oh, hardly surprising, considering there are only two posts. But since his first post stated a busy RL, I can hardly blame him. His second post seems fine as well. Lets give him a minimal town lean for now. I hope, his RL will calm down and he can get more active.
Snow... I hope you are town, but thats not really a read. You are calmer than usual, but as long as I'm alive, I'll react very poorly to anyone accusing you for this. Exams are more important than this. I hope you can get more active later on, but RL takes preference. For a real read, I should do an ISO, which I expect to come out as a solid NULL right now.
Cao... Another low poster, but he was late to the party in general, so thats NAI. Since he has one rather big post, I'll take a look at this before I can come to a conclusion.
Elenna... Well, I don't share the suspicion on her for the AV vote, which is the reason for some of the heat she got in the discussion. I should do an ISO to see if my first impression will hold any water.

And I'll second your stance about memes. They are totaly fine to start the game, but when push comes to shove, they should take a backseat.

---

Spoiler: Caos big post

Show

Huh. So in my Latin class in high school, I was taught that they didn't have the letter K and that C was always a hard sound.



We can always look back at the poem for you in Love Letter.



Oh my god, I've been about to post so many times and then I have 5 new posts and new information to consider and then it happens again and again.

---

Reading through the thread, there isn't anyone that strikes me as an obvious Wolf but that's standard for Day 1. I'm not a fan of the AV wagon, mostly cause it feels like a given that a) AV has said they aren't super active Day 1, b) often self votes, and c) I feel like AV is popular to vote just because? (I don't actually have numbers on how often AV gets votes). The first two posts of the game immediately create that wagon and it's not unreasonable to assume that AV won't spend too much time defending themselves Day 1 and/or a self vote would show up there to boost the wagon. So possibly scum picking an "easy" target or one that at least won't be questioned too much.

I don't like that Rogan's vote is still on Taff rather than moving it to someone else, but he gets a pass for now for being so active and pushing discussion but another way to do that is move votes to pressure people.

All the other votes being split is... kinda interesting. No one seems willing to push a second wagon to rival AV Aside from Elenna moving to vote me I guess.

I swear, every time I have a thought I refresh the thread and have to catch up on a bunch of new posts. My vague reads:
AvatarVecna - no reason to call them a Wolf yet and I don't love the wagon that popped up on AV so quickly and how it's been stuck as the leading wagon this whole time. I feel like Wolf!AV would have buddies to bail them out? Picking someone to vote for out of that wagon would probably be good. that most recent vote is obviously sketchy, I should vote for AV
Elenna - putting a 3rd vote on AV... the fact that it's the 3rd vote doesn't seem too bad to me, it turns out wagoning is important but as I mentioned above, all of the votes on AV left a sour taste in my mouth. Elenna moving to make a second wagon feels good to me though, rather than make yet another one vote wagon that we have so many of.
Snowblaze - apparently has exams and is catching up. No opinion right now but I don't love the 1, 2 punch of her and Xum starting the game by both voting AV.
Xumtil - someone I want to follow up on. A lot of posts that I'll analyze more later, but I have a gut feeling that I just don't trust Xum atm.

But apparently we have Rogan/BCH as possible wagons now? So my thoughts on them:

Spoiler: Batcathat

Show

I don't like the initial focus on Elenna over the other people on the wagon, from this post:


Does this post mean that you don't think Xumtil and Snow aren't suspicious for their votes? Or just that Xum/Snow is not a wolf/wolf pair?

BCH eventually comes around to suspect Xum as well, though there's no mention of the AV vote.

Spoiler: Rogan

Show

My instinct is always that high posters feel more townie so Rogan initially had a vaguely town read for leading the town but...



Joke vote on someone not in the game is fine initially. But it has stuck around for an uncomfortable amount of time now.


Singling out Book to ask the real question to is weird. I get that Book is hard to read but it's still calling one person out when that information could be just as useful as a general question to everyone. Picking Elenna for a random question is a choice as well... Explained below but still. Drilling down on Book's "slip" new feels like there was more behind the choice of who to ask.


Later on we get a defense of Elenna (a possibility of a Rogan/Elenna team is gonna sit in the back of my mind now)



Don't like that argument. Bat was voting one of his reads and mentions others. Rogan technically is voting someone who is not among the top posters (Taff, the person not appearing in this game) but I don't see him pushing for activity/any reads himself. Even the line of questioning on Book Wombat apparently doesn't get any sort of vote.


Later in the thread there's some role analysis but that amounts to speculating what roles are in the game rather than chasing down leads. There's an explanation of reads there, but why not actually vote any of them or push them strongly?

Overall I think I want to vote: Rogan after catching up. His play so far appears townie on the surface but after looking closer I don't like it.

---

Vote Count

AvatarVecna (3): Xumtil, AvatarVecna, Valmark
Taffimai (1): Rogan
Book Wombat (1): Flatfooted
Xumtil (1): Xihirli
Zelphas (1): Book Wombat
BatCatHat (1): JeenLeen
CaoimhinTheCape (2): Grand Arbiter, Elenna
Rogan (5): Bladescape, BatCatHat, Zelpas, Snowblaze, CaoimhinTheCape

The start of the post is just some random banter while trying to catch up. NAI.
The part about AVs wagon is something I can agree with. AVs wagon is bad, cause it's purely for the memes. I don't put much wight on the first three votes (the first two comming from two players who should have voted AV the previous game (hey, it's okay to vote her for being evil!) and also very close to each other, so they probably didn't influence each other too much; Elennas vote for being too obvious in my mind) but everyone who came after this might be worth another look.
It feels a bit strange that he doesn't follow up with a closer anslysis of the wagon, but I realize that there was a lot going on, so he might have felt like there were other, more important things to respond to.
The point against my vote on Taffi is noted. I guess it is someting thats a bit off about me, having my vote somewhere it won't matter at all. But he is correct, I'm not shy of giving my thoughts. My vote can follow them when it matters.
His reads on AV and Elenna feel good, they are very similar to my own thoughts. On Snow, we differ slightly but that's fine. Xum is similar as well.

Now, his ISOs of BCH and me.
An interesting point on BCHs stance on Xum, otherwise very empty, despite BCH having many posts as well. This feels a bit strange.
My own ISO is significantly longer.
To answer one indirect question:
I don't think general questions work that well. It's very easy to ignore them if you don't want to answer.
Why did I pick Book for the 'real' question? Well, he has a bad habit of being quiet. I don't need to get people talking who are talkative anyway.
I can see why he suggests an Elenna/me team. It's wrong, but an observation I can understand. It might bite me in the ass if my read on Elanna is wrong, but hey... The worst thing to happen is, I die and thats I risk I can live with (sorry for the pun).

Don't like that argument. Bat was voting one of his reads and mentions others. Rogan technically is voting someone who is not among the top posters (Taff, the person not appearing in this game) but I don't see him pushing for activity/any reads himself. Even the line of questioning on Book Wombat apparently doesn't get any sort of vote.

This part feels a bit off for me. I was asked about my opinion an Bat.
My answer was basicaly, I think Bats actions could come from a wolf, but are typical for him. Like AV, it's easy to get suspicous about him. But since he also is pretty active, I don't want to lynch him.
The quote makes it seem like I was attacking Bat, when in fact I said that they are typical for him and even while he might fake them, he is not someone I'd consider right now.
If I had to judge my own stance, I'd paint it in a light of 'hey, they might be partners who don't want to bus, but are not comfortable of seeming too close to each other either'.

There is also an accusion of using role speculation to avoid chasing leads, which I have a hard time to relate to. AV made a big post about roles, maybe there was a mixup?
The end is again putting a focus on me voting / not voting.

Soo.. what kind of result do I get from this..?

I think you are all putting too much emphasize on my vote. In theory, I could have changed my vote every time I had the slightes bad impression from someome. Would this be helpful? Maybe a bit, if it caused someone else to jump on the wagon whose support could be analysed. But would you get a better read on me? Also maybe a bit, because my reads would be a bit more visible and wouldn't risk getting drowned in a the sheer number of posts.
But are those slight advantages realy worth the trouble? Dunno... Seems like thats up to you to decide.

[Zelphas]

Zelphas's first post gave me gut pings, but I can't quite pin down why and iirc I had gut pings from town-at-the-time Zelphas in Words of Power. I initially had them slightly above null because I liked their taking the initiative with a Rogan vote, but on reread I'm retracting that. In town!Rogan worlds it could easily be an opportunistic wolf.

Zelphas, what do you make of the large amounts of support for the Rogan wagon? Do you think there are wolves on it?

I don't like large wagons appearing quickly on Day 1 regardless, but at the same time the Rogan wagon makes the most sense to me given the scant amount of information currently available. The Day 1 lynch runs heavily on meta-knowledge most of the time, and I'm really bad at meta-knowledge; with each in-game Day, I feel more comfortable making decisions and judging how people are thinking and acting.

If Rogan is town, there are almost certainly wolves on his wagon. They want Day 1 to be a mislynch, because a dead wolf immediately is a massive blow, and the wagon formed very quickly. I'm going to go ahead and say that if Rogan is lynched and flips town, my suspicion is on Elenna, though that's based almost entirely on gut feelings (I have a vague feeling that I read something earlier to make me think that way, but I'll need to double-check the thread to see if that actually has any substance).

If Rogan is wolf, there's still a possibility of wolves in his wagon, though I'd say that's much less likely given the closeness of the votes between Rogan and AvatarVecna. It would make more sense for the wolves to switch to AvatarVecna and at least tie the vote, I think (unless both AvatarVecna and Rogan are wolves, which would just be bad luck for the wolves).

[AvatarVecna]

I was hoping you would have enjoyed UPick2 as well, despite the rather unfortunate clash we had d2. Sorry for this (again). While dying n3 seems bad, the game had taken a significant turn at this time, so it felt like you were active till the end.
Otherwise... I kind of can see your point. But I also feel like your stance of not being active day 1 is not that helpful. Of course you risk drawing attention and getting killed even faster, but I don't think making a show out of not wanting to play is a kind of self-fullfilling prophecy.
And sorry again for killing you n1 in the first instance of this game. At least, this was a game you had fun playing.

UP2 was mostly fine, it just wasn't very good townplay by me for the most part, so it's kinda ugh in my memory. And no worries about the vig in the previous PJ game, things worked out well enough.

As far as self-fulfilling prophecy goes, it's a weird situation. I don't entirely disagree with you. There's just limited incentive. There's basically nothing to analyze until D2, not even mechanical actions for the most part. The best I can do is stuff like the big post I made musing on theoretical mechanical stuff. But because it's so early-game, there's just so little to engage with, so attempting to do so is largely a waste of time, especially if I'm going to die before I can actually do anything with all that effort I put in. At the same time, sitting here quietly not doing anything doesn't help generate discussion, and if there's no D1 discussion to compare the D2 discussion to, there's less to analyze and lower odds of catching scum.

All these facts combine together to create the ideal D1 strategy: a player with a reputation for being extremely good at catching wolves makes random low-effort accusations and refuses to explain themselves. They don't believe in these accusations, they're just starting random wagons in order to try and provoke a response that can be used to analyze people later in the game. This has the added benefit of boosting their reputation in subsequent games: if they accuse everybody at least once during D1, then at the end of the game they can say "I suspected every wolf before D1 ended" without technically lying, and that makes the wolves in the next game even more anxious when they start through wild accusations everywhere. This shotgun approach requires the least effort put into it, while maximizing the reward. The only downside is that you're essentially just trolling during D1. It's a neat but mildly antisocial strategy that doesn't particularly interest me.

[gac3]

I'm here. Been reading (but need to reread the last page or two in better detail), but didn't want to post until I successfully got into the Discord and figured out my role/faction.

Not much to say except I don't really care for the AV wagon currently.

@gac3: does the wolf!Dionysious power actually invalidate the targeting done by whoever targets the wolf, or does it just make them get feedback like they were voided?
Sometimes this is mechanically the same.
E.g., if a seer/info-gatherer targets, they get feedback they were drunk. Seems like they were voided, and effectively they were. But I guess a tracker/watcher could still see what happened.
But if they were a vig, they'd get feedback they were drunk but would the wolf die or did the vig-shot get stopped?

So the logic with that one is that the power will work but they will think it didn't. So a kill/bane/void would all go through in the normal way and you'd just receive feedback as if blocked. It's extra effective against seers and other feedback dependent roles but let's say hypothetically a role that lets you see someone else's results exist. If that person targeted a seer, who targeted Bacchus, that person would get a scry and the seer wouldn't.

[Rogan]

I don't like large wagons appearing quickly on Day 1 regardless, but at the same time the Rogan wagon makes the most sense to me given the scant amount of information currently available. The Day 1 lynch runs heavily on meta-knowledge most of the time, and I'm really bad at meta-knowledge; with each in-game Day, I feel more comfortable making decisions and judging how people are thinking and acting.

If Rogan is town, there are almost certainly wolves on his wagon. They want Day 1 to be a mislynch, because a dead wolf immediately is a massive blow, and the wagon formed very quickly. I'm going to go ahead and say that if Rogan is lynched and flips town, my suspicion is on Elenna, though that's based almost entirely on gut feelings (I have a vague feeling that I read something earlier to make me think that way, but I'll need to double-check the thread to see if that actually has any substance).

If Rogan is wolf, there's still a possibility of wolves in his wagon, though I'd say that's much less likely given the closeness of the votes between Rogan and AvatarVecna. It would make more sense for the wolves to switch to AvatarVecna and at least tie the vote, I think (unless both AvatarVecna and Rogan are wolves, which would just be bad luck for the wolves).

I realy start to wonder if my Elenna town lean is wrong. Let me know if you find the thing about her you mentioned.

I also don't think that AV is a valid counterwagon. Well, it shouldn't be, at least. It's all about the always evil AV and revenge for the last game. I don't want this to happen. Nobody should want this wagon without actually getting to a wolf read.

UP2 was mostly fine, it just wasn't very good townplay by me for the most part, so it's kinda ugh in my memory. And no worries about the vig in the previous PJ game, things worked out well enough.

As far as self-fulfilling prophecy goes, it's a weird situation. I don't entirely disagree with you. There's just limited incentive. There's basically nothing to analyze until D2, not even mechanical actions for the most part. The best I can do is stuff like the big post I made musing on theoretical mechanical stuff. But because it's so early-game, there's just so little to engage with, so attempting to do so is largely a waste of time, especially if I'm going to die before I can actually do anything with all that effort I put in. At the same time, sitting here quietly not doing anything doesn't help generate discussion, and if there's no D1 discussion to compare the D2 discussion to, there's less to analyze and lower odds of catching scum.

All these facts combine together to create the ideal D1 strategy: a player with a reputation for being extremely good at catching wolves makes random low-effort accusations and refuses to explain themselves. They don't believe in these accusations, they're just starting random wagons in order to try and provoke a response that can be used to analyze people later in the game. This has the added benefit of boosting their reputation in subsequent games: if they accuse everybody at least once during D1, then at the end of the game they can say "I suspected every wolf before D1 ended" without technically lying, and that makes the wolves in the next game even more anxious when they start through wild accusations everywhere. This shotgun approach requires the least effort put into it, while maximizing the reward. The only downside is that you're essentially just trolling during D1. It's a neat but mildly antisocial strategy that doesn't particularly interest me.

Oh, I think you were pretty helpful when it came to the mech part of figuring out which night actions we should take n3 to get the best result for town. And I think our clash, as bad as it was, had helped to sort things out. The dublication of my power usage was important as well.
But talking about the past is not very helpful for this game. I would be happy to talk about things later, maybe even in a more private setting, if you'd like to.

I'm sitting here, wondering if I should say anything about the described day 1 strategy. I have some thoughts, but I'm a bit worried they might lead to bad feelings, so I'm not sure if I should say anymore or not. Since it probably is not terribly important for the gamestate, I think I'll remain quiet, but maybe we can talk about this later as well.

Is there anything I could do right now to improve your enjoyment of this game? Well, except taking the lynch instead of you?

[Xumtiil]

While you have a (marginal) point, I think it's more important to have a counter wagon, than it to be a really good one. Barring scum slips, there are no good D1 wagons, and having a wagon, a counter, and some more votes going around applying pressure is the best you can hope for. Considering how your wagon came to be, I'm expecting you to flip town, and honestly I'm also not thinking AV is genuinely a Roman, but I feel like AV a bit in a sense that the game only truly starts being interesting/solvable D2. All this conversation is nice, but without any irrefutable statements from the GodGac, everything is both innocent and suspicious.

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I also don't think that AV is a valid counterwagon. Well, it shouldn't be, at least. It's all about the always evil AV and revenge for the last game. I don't want this to happen. Nobody should want this wagon without actually getting to a wolf read.

Quoting the section I'm replying to

[AvatarVecna]

Is there anything I could do right now to improve your enjoyment of this game? Well, except taking the lynch instead of you?

I would accept lynching one of your scumbuddies instead.

Nah don't worry about it. I probably just need to put in effort and make it fun even if I'm gonna die immediately.

As far as discussing D1 strategy goes, the act of discussion is itself strategic. Not discussing it might be the better option. OR IS IT.

[Xumtiil]

I feel like discussing about whether or not to discuss the strategy is a strategy.

[Rogan]

While you have a (marginal) point, I think it's more important to have a counter wagon, than it to be a really good one. Barring scum slips, there are no good D1 wagons, and having a wagon, a counter, and some more votes going around applying pressure is the best you can hope for. Considering how your wagon came to be, I'm expecting you to flip town, and honestly I'm also not thinking AV is genuinely a Roman, but I feel like AV a bit in a sense that the game only truly starts being interesting/solvable D2. All this conversation is nice, but without any irrefutable statements from the GodGac, everything is both innocent and suspicious.

Quoting the section I'm replying to

So, don't get me wrong. I don't think there are many good cases. If I thought there would be one, I would not vote Taffi. But there are multiple weak cases. Elenna voted too fast for AV? Okay, I disagee, but it is a reason. Bat can't decide if something is wolfy or not? Yeah, no big news, but at least this might be something. AV is only a wagon because of last game. And because there has to be a counterwagon. Well, newsflash: I am the counterwagon. I'm fine with this, in fact I have provoced this. But having this as a dicromy of "Either vote AV, or Vote Rogan" is bad, unless you seriously think we are both wolves and I'm trying to save her with my stunt.

I can't tell you who you should vote for, because while I have some leans, they are nothing I would want to place a bet on. But pure meme voting is bad and if you do it at this point, you should feel bad. Well, unless it's on Taffi, voting her gets a pass!

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I feel like discussing about whether or not to discuss the strategy is a strategy.

But is this a strategy which will help town or help wolves?

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I would accept lynching one of your scumbuddies instead.

Oh, sure. Lynch Taffi, she is totaly scum!

[Xumtiil]

A kill on me is certainly warranted after that last game.

Also, lynching on principle. There are very few good reasons to vote for anyone D1, and I have noticed I do suffer from D1 vote inertia. There needs to be a last ditch claim to save someone, only for that someone to kill me in a standoff all the way at the end.

Actually come to think of it, maybe Snow is the better wagon?

[Rogan]

On an unrelated note:
Frieday, 7ish AM forum time. Thats... 13 hours from now on? God, I hate timezones...

[AvatarVecna]

You can have my role claim when you print from my cold dead hands.

[Xihirli]

Also, lynching on principle. There are very few good reasons to vote for anyone D1, and I have noticed I do suffer from D1 vote inertia. There needs to be a last ditch claim to save someone, only for that someone to kill me in a standoff all the way at the end.

Actually come to think of it, maybe Snow is the better wagon?

I promise not to vote AV Day one for the next two games. This one is a specific one, and I wanted to kill Xumtiil more, to give myself maximum credit.

[Rogan]

Hmmm...
Activity has died down again and it's getting late.

I would like to claim French speaking townie who doesn't need to care about his looks cause he can prove his alignment without any doubt. Unfortunately, the RNG wasn't in my favor, so I can't do this.

But still, I was actively trying to generate discussions, being fully aware I might end up as the lynch target. My power might still save me if I claim, since it's useful to a degree and mostly provable, but if we lose it, it's not that bad either. I won't say more about this yet.

If I get lynched, look at my wagon. I'm pretty sure there is at least one wolf on me who couldn't resist the juicy opportunity.
CaoimhinTheCape might be a good starting point, but don't take this as a gospel. Bat could be opportunistic as well, but again... I'm not sure about this so use your own brains.

Please don't vote for AV instead of me, even if this might save me. I have no idea about her alignment, but I've stressed not wanting to vote her enough that if she flips wolf, I'd probably get lynched next. Not terrible, but not great either. I'm more afraid of her flipping town, giving hardly any Intel and robbing the fun from her game. Plus, I would still be a prime suspect for the next day, for seeming so sure about her alignment in addition to the rest of my weird behavior.

I didn't get to do an ISO on Elenna and I won't get to do it before EOD. So I'll remain at my small town lean, but if disagree, don't let this stop you.

If you have any questions for me, feel free to ask. If I can, I'll answer.

Good night everyone.

[bladescape]

Don't mind me, just seeing what happens.

Also gmorning.

CaomihnTheCape

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I would like to petition that if the wolves are considering AV tonight they instead consider me.

I have a lot larger a gullet for games and don't mind dying early except in very specific games.

Also I'm a beast and it'll be funny

[gac3]

On an unrelated note:
Frieday, 7ish AM forum time. Thats... 13 hours from now on? God, I hate timezones...

Slightly less than 10 hours from me posting this now. Though subject to vary some depending on how bad work is tonight.

[Elenna]

I don't recall a reason for Cao at the moment? Maybe I've missed something? I also have to admit, I don't know the exact vote count at this time, so I don't know which options you actually had.

The reason was just "because he's inactive". Which wasn't true anymore at the point where I switched my vote to you, so that was another reason to move my vote.

I don't disagree that this interpretation is unreasonable. But I definitly do disagree that my initial interpretation is some shady attempt to get Book misslynched and totaly unreasonable. In fact, if Book turns out to be a wolf, I'd like an excuse from bladescape.
So, why am I not voting there? Well, I have told you what pinged me about his post. Bat gave some vague support, but also some counterpoint. Basically everybody else is telling me that I'm wrong, in various degrees of certainty and with differnt motives assigned to it. So it's not worth to push this. Creating discussion is.

I didn't think your initial interpretation was unreasonable in itself - what pinged me was more that you seemed to be ignoring or at least glossing over the arguments against your initial interpretation.

Plus, even if you hadn't a clear cut preference, I'd encurage you to think of other people as well instead of the top wagons. Especially when there are no good reasons at all for one of them (it's AV I'm talking about).

I would if I had any, but like you, I don't have any other suspicions.

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I would like to petition that if the wolves are considering AV tonight they instead consider me.

I have a lot larger a gullet for games and don't mind dying early except in very specific games.

Also I'm a beast and it'll be funny

I'm down to be NKd, honestly, I don't really mind the less stressful speculating in dead chat, and I'd rather it be me than a townie with a more useful power.
Now, am I just saying that to hide that I actually have a really good power? Maybe! Wolves, enjoy the wine.

[bladescape]

Time to poke thread with a stick?

[Snowblaze]

And rounding off our collection of two-posters with Caoimhin.
Who has significantly more content than the others and requires a quote.

Spoiler: quote

Show

Huh. So in my Latin class in high school, I was taught that they didn't have the letter K and that C was always a hard sound.



We can always look back at the poem for you in Love Letter.



Oh my god, I've been about to post so many times and then I have 5 new posts and new information to consider and then it happens again and again.

---

Reading through the thread, there isn't anyone that strikes me as an obvious Wolf but that's standard for Day 1. I'm not a fan of the AV wagon, mostly cause it feels like a given that a) AV has said they aren't super active Day 1, b) often self votes, and c) I feel like AV is popular to vote just because? (I don't actually have numbers on how often AV gets votes). The first two posts of the game immediately create that wagon and it's not unreasonable to assume that AV won't spend too much time defending themselves Day 1 and/or a self vote would show up there to boost the wagon. So possibly scum picking an "easy" target or one that at least won't be questioned too much.

I don't like that Rogan's vote is still on Taff rather than moving it to someone else, but he gets a pass for now for being so active and pushing discussion but another way to do that is move votes to pressure people.

All the other votes being split is... kinda interesting. No one seems willing to push a second wagon to rival AV Aside from Elenna moving to vote me I guess.

I swear, every time I have a thought I refresh the thread and have to catch up on a bunch of new posts. My vague reads:
AvatarVecna - no reason to call them a Wolf yet and I don't love the wagon that popped up on AV so quickly and how it's been stuck as the leading wagon this whole time. I feel like Wolf!AV would have buddies to bail them out? Picking someone to vote for out of that wagon would probably be good. that most recent vote is obviously sketchy, I should vote for AV
Elenna - putting a 3rd vote on AV... the fact that it's the 3rd vote doesn't seem too bad to me, it turns out wagoning is important but as I mentioned above, all of the votes on AV left a sour taste in my mouth. Elenna moving to make a second wagon feels good to me though, rather than make yet another one vote wagon that we have so many of.
Snowblaze - apparently has exams and is catching up. No opinion right now but I don't love the 1, 2 punch of her and Xum starting the game by both voting AV.
Xumtil - someone I want to follow up on. A lot of posts that I'll analyze more later, but I have a gut feeling that I just don't trust Xum atm.

But apparently we have Rogan/BCH as possible wagons now? So my thoughts on them:

Spoiler: Batcathat

Show

I don't like the initial focus on Elenna over the other people on the wagon, from this post:


Does this post mean that you don't think Xumtil and Snow aren't suspicious for their votes? Or just that Xum/Snow is not a wolf/wolf pair?

BCH eventually comes around to suspect Xum as well, though there's no mention of the AV vote.

Spoiler: Rogan

Show

My instinct is always that high posters feel more townie so Rogan initially had a vaguely town read for leading the town but...



Joke vote on someone not in the game is fine initially. But it has stuck around for an uncomfortable amount of time now.


Singling out Book to ask the real question to is weird. I get that Book is hard to read but it's still calling one person out when that information could be just as useful as a general question to everyone. Picking Elenna for a random question is a choice as well... Explained below but still. Drilling down on Book's "slip" new feels like there was more behind the choice of who to ask.


Later on we get a defense of Elenna (a possibility of a Rogan/Elenna team is gonna sit in the back of my mind now)



Don't like that argument. Bat was voting one of his reads and mentions others. Rogan technically is voting someone who is not among the top posters (Taff, the person not appearing in this game) but I don't see him pushing for activity/any reads himself. Even the line of questioning on Book Wombat apparently doesn't get any sort of vote.


Later in the thread there's some role analysis but that amounts to speculating what roles are in the game rather than chasing down leads. There's an explanation of reads there, but why not actually vote any of them or push them strongly?

Overall I think I want to vote: Rogan after catching up. His play so far appears townie on the surface but after looking closer I don't like it.

---

Vote Count

AvatarVecna (3): Xumtil, AvatarVecna, Valmark
Taffimai (1): Rogan
Book Wombat (1): Flatfooted
Xumtil (1): Xihirli
Zelphas (1): Book Wombat
BatCatHat (1): JeenLeen
CaoimhinTheCape (2): Grand Arbiter, Elenna
Rogan (5): Bladescape, BatCatHat, Zelpas, Snowblaze, CaoimhinTheCape

Catchup is basically what I was going through except doing shorter posts instead of one wall, so my sympathies although it's probably NAI.

I disagree with the AV wagon being wolfy for obvious reasons, but from someone who isn't (?) aware of what happened last game it's understandable.

Like the point on Rogan, which also made my list of concerns (note: check which came first to see if it's an authentic mindmeld).

Gut wolfread on Xumtiil is.... *shrug* probably fine. Would like more thoughts on that if you're around.

BCH's focus on Elenna is understandable given circumstances. I do not remember their suspecting Xumtiil at all (note to self: check that).

Rogan... there's some decent points against him but also some of it is stuff I personally wouldn't find that wolfy. Need to reread that for quote context.

Overall... *shrug* I can find some concerns but I don't know how much I actually believe in:
-large amounts of hedge and few solid stances
- making a reads list in which the above is true
- kind of narrow focus on the AV wagon (maybe I'm biased here because for me the early AV wagon is a thing that exists and isn't particularly AI for anyone on it)

Also kind of second-guessing my Rogan read. aorn I prefer Caoimhin to AV as a counterwagon since that has actual reasons behind it. Need a vote count.

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AvatarVecna (4): Xumtil, AvatarVecna, Valmark, Xihirli
Book Wombat (1): flat_footed
Zelphas (1): Book Wombat
BatCatHat (1): JeenLeen
CaoimhinTheCape (3): Grand Arbiter, Rogan, bladescape
Rogan (5): BatCatHat, Zelphas, Snowblaze, CaoimhinTheCape, Elenna

Also I somehow forgot to add the preface to the Caoimhin stuff but I was working on that last night and since they're now a wagon decided it would be useful to finish.

Also also is it bad that I now want to vote Caoimhin purely to make a three-way tie?

Also also also does anyone not currently wolfread Rogan, and if so why?

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Ah, sorry. The potentially too obvious part of the case against BW was meant to be the "Oops, I made a town team" part, not the part you discovered.

And speaking of potential cases of wolves playing up their ignorance to look towny, now I kinda suspect Xum over that. I already miss having him as the only one I didn't suspect among the top posters (I don't suspect AV for any particular reason, just my baseline level of never trusting them completely).

BCH suspecting Xumtiil, which did happen. I guess at least it's consistent with the Wombat read?

Also the only thing I remember from reading this in catchup mode is "wait, BCH suspects me?" followed immediately by "ou, right, I'm not actually one of the top posters".

And Caoimhin's point about Rogan's vote came after mine, reducing the towncred I can give them for it.

[Batcathat]

I'm down to be NKd, honestly, I don't really mind the less stressful speculating in dead chat, and I'd rather it be me than a townie with a more useful power.
Now, am I just saying that to hide that I actually have a really good power? Maybe! Wolves, enjoy the wine.

I know the feeling. When I die in these games I'm usually disappointed but also a little bit relieved that I can finally relax.

Time to poke thread with a stick?

Yeah, that burst of activity ended as quickly as it began. Not sure how to interpret it. It could be that Rogan is town and doesn't have any buddies to defend him, but I think it's just as likely that the wolves either have given up on saving him or (perhaps more likely) are hoping it'll turn around on its own before they do something that might raise suspicions.

BCH's focus on Elenna is understandable given circumstances. I do not remember their suspecting Xumtiil at all (note to self: check that).

It's probably referring to my comment about Xum misunderstanding how the wolves' powers work, which I thought might be a wolf feigning ignorance to look towny. I still think it's a possibility, but I can't say I have any serious suspicions against Xum at this time.

On a unrelated note, AV's post got me thinking about what games I've enjoyed the most and I realized that of the three that first came to mind (Love Letter, Words of Power and Upick 2, in no particular order) I didn't win a single one, which is kinda funny. That's not to say I can't be bothered by a loss, I'm still annoyed with myself over the original Percy Jackson.

[Snowblaze]

I'm just staring at Rogan's posts and thinking "I used to know how to read this person, why am I struggling so much now?"

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Fun games: UPick 2, Fallout, Craziest Idea, the original Percy Jackson are the first few to come to mind. Which implies that I like games with high activity where I'm suspected either not at all or for completely justified mechanical reasons.

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Screw it, CaoimhinTheCape. I'd expect an attempt to discredit his wagon from wolf!Rogan which I'm not seeing here.

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Also while I was ISOing Rogan I noticed Xumtiil has 19 posts and I can't remember anything they've done other than "apparently didn't get how the wolf powers work" and "voted AV for the memes".

Caoimhin, if you're around before EOD it would be really helpful if you could elaborate on your suspicions there.

Also also it turns out ties are a lot less nerve-wracking when you're not one of the tied players.

[Batcathat]

Also while I was ISOing Rogan I noticed Xumtiil has 19 posts and I can't remember anything they've done other than "apparently didn't get how the wolf powers work" and "voted AV for the memes".

That is a good point. He might be a wolf who has found that sweet spot between being on everyone's radar and looking like you're trying to hide. Not cause for alarm, but worth keeping in mind.

I don't love the idea of the lynch being decided by random chance, but unless someone has a good (by D1 standards) against AV or Cao, I don't think I'll be switching.

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That should be "a good case", obviously.