What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

[Jay R]

I am about to start running a 3.5e game for the first time. I've been a DM off-and-on since the 1970s, but I'm fairly new to 3.5e, and don't have a lot of systems mastery beyond the characters I've played. So you'll probably see several threads like this over the next few months.

I need a NPC lord who started out as a martial (probably Fighter), but after a few levels, he became a ruler. For the last twenty years he's been the lord of a large region, and has taken whatever class would be best for being able to rule. He is Lord Angmar.

What class (or combination of classes) would that be?

Yes, I know he could be an Aristocrat. But I don't see him as having an NPC class. I want something less bland. If a big battle comes, he will be in the thick of it, and should have a good build for that.

The world is fairly low level at present. Civilizations have grown and died many times. There are waves of Chaos (or something) that come by every few hundred years, releasing far more monsters into this plane, and then civilization is under siege, beaten back, and sometimes destroyed altogether. [This explains why there are so many ruins to explore.]

The last couple of hundred years have been times of peace and prosperity, and the empire has expanded a great deal, although the expansion has been slowed or stopped for the last few decades. Among other things, this means that there aren't many high-level characters around; with little or no monsters around, it's hard to get experience points.

Theoretically, Lord Angmar is the governor of a far-flung province on the outskirts of the empire. Theoretically, he is in fealty to the Emperor, and serves at the Emperor's pleasure, but in truth, he hasn't heard from the capital in twenty years, and likes it that way. So he has pretty much supreme power.

He is well-intentioned, and wants to serve his province well. He sends troops to villagers when they call for aid, but that hasn't happened much lately.

My intent is for Angmar to represent an establishment figure that is decent, fair, but not really prepared to deal with the coming troubles. He will support the PCs after the fact, but really doesn't expect to see the ogres, giants, and other monsters that will soon be coming.

So while he started as a martial type, he's been focused on governing, not battles.

I assume that he is about 8th level or so, and thus the highest-level NPC around. I have him pegged as about 4th level Fighter and then 4 levels of something that helps him rule.

So what is that class?

[RandomPeasant]

Most of the powers that help you rule are magic, and generally fairly high-level magic. Cleric is probably the best bet, especially if you're willing to shuffle him to Fighter 3/Cleric 5 for plant growth (the single most strategically-impactful low-level spell). But having healing magic and zone of truth is probably the most you can pull off at that level, plus Diplomacy as a class skill.

[Jervis]

What he said basically. I’m biased towards this admittedly but cleric is great for a ruler.
-High wisdom is a requirement and you also benefit from high charisma
-Automatic sign that a god has your back
-Plant growth and healing spells as well as the ability to pull food and water out of thin air
-Can get things like Guidance of the Avatar and Zone of Truth
-If you still want him to keep the martial them then plenty of PrCs let you do it and divine power exists

Baring that Paladin is thematic and bard is good for diplomancy.

[Zanos]

I think only having a few levels in a magic class limits the scope of powers you can bring to bear at a large scale. Personally I would think that a class that allows him to branch out into skill use would be a better fit, considering a supreme ruler is going to want to know when his advisors and diplomatic partners are misleading him(sense motive) and be able to convince people to work with him if he is somewhat benevolent(diplomacy). Spellcraft and knowledges are also useful to know that you aren't being BS'd. And half ranks probably aren't gonna cut it. A few levels in factotum would probably be good if he has decent int, so that he can branch out into useful skills and have a few inspiration points to add a decent bonus to his checks when necessary. It also won't hurt too much as far as direct combat goes since factotum is at least okay at that.

[Jervis]

I think only having a few levels in a magic class limits the scope of powers you can bring to bear at a large scale. Personally I would think that a class that allows him to branch out into skill use would be a better fit, considering a supreme ruler is going to want to know when his advisors and diplomatic partners are misleading him(sense motive) and be able to convince people to work with him if he is somewhat benevolent(diplomacy). Spellcraft and knowledges are also useful to know that you aren't being BS'd. And half ranks probably aren't gonna cut it. A few levels in factotum would probably be good if he has decent int, so that he can branch out into useful skills and have a few inspiration points to add a decent bonus to his checks when necessary. It also won't hurt too much as far as direct combat goes since factotum is at least okay at that.

Just make sure to take Improved Paranoia

[Thunder999]

Even with the fighter levels I'd be tempted by magic, 4 levels with better class skills and a few extra ranks/level isn't going to do much, and neither are most martial options.

Cleric is probably the best bet for reasons stated above, though you won't do better than 2nd level spells.

[Dimers]

Marshal is a much better fit for a ruler than Fighter is, and wouldn't be a terrible choice for all 8 levels. Wade into mass battles, yep; good social skills, yep; and at the same time, "not really prepared to deal with the coming troubles", yep.

[Palanan]

Cleric was my first thought as well. Even if you only get second-level spells, that still brings Zone of Truth, which would be exceptionally useful to a ruler.

That said, paladin might be a solid alternative to a fighter/cleric portmanteau, perhaps a paladin who feels he can best serve his cause by ruling justly and providing a stable environment for his people. The paladin’s spell progression would still fit with your idea of the character being essentially martial for the first four levels—and if he’s perhaps a little too comfortable with the status quo, and slow to understand new developments, that could make for some interesting RP with the party.

[Biggus]

There's the Noble class from Dragonlance Campaign setting, it's kind of like Aristocrat but made into a PC class. It says you have to be born into it, but if you're the DM you don't have to abide by that obviously.

If that's no good I think Dimers' suggestion of Marshal (Miniatures Handbook) makes the most sense, it's basically "military leader: the class".

[RandomPeasant]

Marshal is a much better fit for a ruler than Fighter is, and wouldn't be a terrible choice for all 8 levels. Wade into mass battles, yep; good social skills, yep; and at the same time, "not really prepared to deal with the coming troubles", yep.

A single Marshal isn't really that great on a battlefield. The aura only goes out 60ft, meaning you can't really effect much of the battle, even if you do think it's a good idea to have your head of state wade into the fray. That said, Motivate Charisma is a pretty nice, so some kind of Fighter/Marshal/Cleric mashup might be good.

[Gavinfoxx]

"So, what are the best leader classes? Generally, the Marshal, the Bard, the Archivist, the Cloistered Cleric, the Crusader, and the Warblade."

From: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9963.0

[Jervis]

From: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9963.0

No Sha’ir? SMHing my head

[AvatarVecna]

Cleric. Some of the most bang for your buck, Wisdom dependent so that can drive your good decisions, it gets Diplomacy as a class skill, it could get all knowledge skills in-class via Cloistered Cleric, and you can make yourself a "cleric of a cause", to where your power is literally derived from your devotion to serving the greater good of the people you rule over.

[Ramza00]

Fighter 4/Feat Rogue 2/Psychic Warrior 2 would be a more well rounded savant with more feats if we are only doing 8th level. Aristocratic Kings can have some Jack of the Trade energy.

Edit: Fighter 4/Monk 2/Feat Rogue 2

Edit: if the king is an inheritor position this would be totally natural where the noble would be a hostage / guest called "fostering." Besides being a hostage if necessary it also was important to have the child be trained in various arts and to have a good time creating future bonds to build alliances and marriages with. In sum a perfect opportunity to multiclass, like family B encouraged Feat Rogue and other skills over martial mastery, likewise the church / monks help awakened the inner / psionic potential of the person via study and meditation.

[Maat Mons]

I’d say make him a Cleric 8, but say he used to be a Fighter 4. With the Militia feat for proficiency in all martial weapons, Cleric 8 can do everything Fighter 4 can, plus some extra. Someone who can do everything a Fighter 4 can, plus some extra seems like a great representation of someone who was once a Fighter 4, but has since branched out.

[Jervis]

I’d say make him a Cleric 8, but say he used to be a Fighter 4. With the Militia feat for proficiency in all martial weapons, Cleric 8 can do everything Fighter 4 can, plus some extra. Someone who can do everything a Fighter 4 can, plus some extra seems like a great representation of someone who was once a Fighter 4, but has since branched out.

At that point if you’re just going for power… there’s always Ur-Priest

[redking]

Maybe factotum. You can get all the skills. Maybe even into chameleon. The leader character can appear to be a fighter, or wizard or cleric without being a 9th level casting powerhouse.

[Batcathat]

Depending on the culture, cleric (or similar) might also be good for fluff reasons. If it's a "divine right to rule" type thing, I think it makes sense for the king to have a close connection to the deity that basically put him on the throne.

[Telonius]

A multiclassed Monk could be a good class for a mundane noble that needs to stay alive. Take maybe two levels of Marshal for his military / battle leader career, and for getting all of the Knowledge skills. Then, Monk for the rest.

Monks aren't very effective, but they're really obnoxious to kill. High saves, HP isn't terrible (equal to Marshal), and Wholeness of Body can tide him over until he gets to a Cleric. If an assassin catches him in his pajamas, he's still got a decent AC. Depending on feats, he could deflect arrows. If somebody gets cute and tries to throw him out a window, he's got Slow Fall. At higher levels, he's not concerned with disease or poison, gets Spell Resistance and Evasion. If the situation gets really terrible, they are great at running away.

[lylsyly]

A good leader should have good diplomacy, sense motive, intimidate, and bluff skills, keep these maxed.

Human Bonus Feat = Able Learner to buy cross class skills at 1 for 1
Factotum 1 for every skill in the game and your max skill ranks = your ECL+3 even for cross class skills
Fighter 2 for weapon and armor proficiencies
Cloistered Cleric 6 for third level spells and the extra skill points
Leadership feat at level 9 to get his right hand man, personal guard and personal staff.

32 point buy = STR 12, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 16 He’s been sitting on a throne with his head in books for the last 20 years ;-)

Just my 2 coppers!

[Barstro]

If the character did not come from a line of rulers, then he needs high charisma, if not a charisma based class.

Fighters, even excellent ones, do not become kings; they are used by kings. Wizards become court magicians. Clerics and priests can become leaders in the church without charisma because the church has structure. If you do not have charisma, you need a different logical way to have risen to the top (coming from royal blood, so the masses feel compelled to follow).

It takes charisma to have people want to follow you. It takes wisdom to do the right things. After that, it just takes surrounding yourself with the best staff and advisors.

I agree with most prior posts for people who would be NEAR the top, or part of a tribunal/council. Maybe even as a ruler who has a much more charismatic right hand man. But if you are making someone who rose up from obscurity and now leads a people on his own, there needs to be a reason for people to follow him that is greater than a reason for him to work for someone more charismatic than him.

Unless, of course, you want fear/intimidation instead of love/loyalty to retain power. But those are charisma checks as well.

[Yogibear41]

Paladin is martial with lots of social skills for governing. Also fighter 4/Marshal 4 could work. You could maybe even use urban ranger. Really it depends on how powerful you want him to be.

[Jay R]

You’ve all given me useful information, and I know more about the game than I did. Thank you.

But I also see that I failed to communicate what I’m looking for. This is my fault, not yours; I led you astray.

Angmar was purely a Fighter for a while, not training to eventually become a leader. Then, having reached higher rank in the army, he wound up a governor, and had to learn about running a province.

Neither half is about leading in battle. So spending his whole career as a Noble or Marshal just doesn’t work.

As a Fighter, he was not looking ahead to ruling a province. He accidentally found himself in charge of the province when he slew the old governor during a minor rebellion against the empire.

And his focus is now his province, not magic, music, or a god, so wizard, bard, or cleric are not right for the second half. [No, I don't like the concept of a cleric to a "cause".] Besides, the PCs are starting at first level, and will meet him no later than second level. I don’t want him to have greater caster skills than they do. And he can’t be a Paladin, who wouldn’t refuse to help the party when I want them to face something alone.

[There has been (mostly) peace and prosperity for a long time, so there have not been many opportunities to gain experience points. By the time the PCs reach levels 6-9, they will be significant heroes of the area.]

I’m looking for a class that’s primarily about rulership. It should include Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive as class skills. He’s lived in a time of prosperity and peace. There have been a few small skirmishes or raids (and one minor rebeliion), but no major wars.

He should not be ready to deal with the kinds of problems that PCs handle. Monsters are about to start coming out of the wilderness (and other planes). He’s background support when necessary, and exposition, but not a replacement for PCs. Most especially, when something comes up that a 3rd level party needs to handle, I don’t want him and a few troops to be able to put it down easily.

If (when) a major war breaks out, he will lead his troops and do his best, but he shouldn’t be good enough that the PCs aren’t needed. His troops will face the rampaging orcs, while the PCs attack enemy casters or trolls. So I want a good build for fighting, not a great one.

He has a broken build on purpose – split into two different purposes. No PC would do this, because we plan our builds carefully in advance. We’re all focused on excellent builds. That’s why I’m having trouble creating a competent but inefficient build.

He might be a Fighter 4 / Marshal 4. He would usually have a minor aura of CHA, INT, or WIS working. But he’d only know two minor auras; they would need to be Motivate CHA and Motivate either WIS or INT. And major auras have no effect on day-to-day running a province.

Possibly Fighter 4 / Factotum 4, but the only useful Factotum ability for day-to-day peacetime rulership is Cunning Knowledge. Besides, can he even use that when he is not in an “encounter”? [“At the beginning of each encounter, he gains a number of inspiration points determined by his level.” (Emphasis added)] Yes, dealing with ambassadors is an encounter, but researching flood plains or local history is not. Arcane Dilettante also has a little value, mostly with Comprehend Language. But really, a 4th level Factotum is useful as an adventurer, but he's not a good peacetime ruler.

[We're so used to planning a complete build that it's sometimes hard to remember that this NPC probably isn't going to level up more than once.].

So thank you for helping me identify what I really need. Now that I have explained it better, is there a class that can help him rule?

[ciopo]

Why not one of the prestige classes the expand/include leadership? Legendary leader form heroes of battle and warmaster from sword and fist seems the most germane to the situation, with appropriate adapted fluff

[Gavinfoxx]

You’ve all given me useful information, and I know more about the game than I did. Thank you.

But I also see that I failed to communicate what I’m looking for. This is my fault, not yours; I led you astray.

The easiest thing to do is allow him to retrain into the class that is both the overt fighter replacement class AND an amazing leader: Warblade. Please read the handbook I linked to as to why the Fighter is one of the worst leaders in the entire game.

[Melcar]

I am about to start running a 3.5e game for the first time. I've been a DM off-and-on since the 1970s, but I'm fairly new to 3.5e, and don't have a lot of systems mastery beyond the characters I've played. So you'll probably see several threads like this over the next few months.

I need a NPC lord who started out as a martial (probably Fighter), but after a few levels, he became a ruler. For the last twenty years he's been the lord of a large region, and has taken whatever class would be best for being able to rule. He is Lord Angmar.

What class (or combination of classes) would that be?

Yes, I know he could be an Aristocrat. But I don't see him as having an NPC class. I want something less bland. If a big battle comes, he will be in the thick of it, and should have a good build for that.

The world is fairly low level at present. Civilizations have grown and died many times. There are waves of Chaos (or something) that come by every few hundred years, releasing far more monsters into this plane, and then civilization is under siege, beaten back, and sometimes destroyed altogether. [This explains why there are so many ruins to explore.]

The last couple of hundred years have been times of peace and prosperity, and the empire has expanded a great deal, although the expansion has been slowed or stopped for the last few decades. Among other things, this means that there aren't many high-level characters around; with little or no monsters around, it's hard to get experience points.

Theoretically, Lord Angmar is the governor of a far-flung province on the outskirts of the empire. Theoretically, he is in fealty to the Emperor, and serves at the Emperor's pleasure, but in truth, he hasn't heard from the capital in twenty years, and likes it that way. So he has pretty much supreme power.

He is well-intentioned, and wants to serve his province well. He sends troops to villagers when they call for aid, but that hasn't happened much lately.

My intent is for Angmar to represent an establishment figure that is decent, fair, but not really prepared to deal with the coming troubles. He will support the PCs after the fact, but really doesn't expect to see the ogres, giants, and other monsters that will soon be coming.

So while he started as a martial type, he's been focused on governing, not battles.

I assume that he is about 8th level or so, and thus the highest-level NPC around. I have him pegged as about 4th level Fighter and then 4 levels of something that helps him rule.

So what is that class?

I would say that a few levels of Marshal can work well. You essentially get double your charisma bonus to certain skills, like bluff, diplomacy, gather information... etc. that can be very effective. Boyond that I would say Legendary Tactician from Dragon Lance Campaign Settings is a really cool and effective class for minionmancy - if that is the way the ruler wants to go. I also think the fluff is super cool!

So, in summery, Marshal and Legendary Tactician gives a lot of bonusses to social skills and leadership respectfully!

[lylsyly]

You could keep it real simple. Use Generic Warrior from UA. You get to choose any 6 skills as class skills and make sure his INT is at least 14 to get the four points you need to keep those 4 skills maxed.

Other than that the easiest is probably the fighter/factotum combo.

[Ramza00]

4 levels of a modified Bardic Sage.

• Bardic Sage is an Int based Bard which has weaker durations bardic music and in return gets 1 extra spell known of each spell level yet that bonus spell known spell must be divination based. Also it is Int based for spell dcs and bonus spells. Lastly you have a poor fort and reflex save but keep the good will.

One can also do three more swaps.

• Lore Song, twice a day at 4th level you can get an insight bonus to 1 attack, save, ability check, or skill check. In return no Lore Song. This is an immediate action.
• Healing Hymm, lose Fascinate but you and any healing magic adds both the spells caster level and your perform ranks to the caster level until you hit the spell max. Thus if someone cast cure moderate wounds the max healing is 2d8+10 thus a 5th level cleric with you having 5 ranks of perform would hit the maximum, likewise a 3rd level cleric and 7 ranks in perform.
• Inspire Awe, your enemies is less effective in combat and is shaken if it fails a will save against your perform rank. In response you lose inspire courage. Since it is a skill check it is easy to optimise around. Also you can do fear stacking like the Dreadful Wrath regional feat.

In sum you are a non fun and merry bard but the serious and gruff one who learned all his skills in a late to life career change. You started studying books, hand to hand people skills, and so on to be a reluctant leader to your people.

In 3.5 Bard at 4th level you would have bard 2 2nd level spells and 3 3rd level spells, plus 2 more divination spells if one goes Bardic Sage. That is easy to fill with spells that are not magic flavored but instead modifying the environment. For example the 1st level improvisation gives you a floating pool of luck points (make sure to take practiced spellcaster bard.). Instant of Power from Forge of War gives you an immediate action 1st level buff spell that works for almost everything not in combat but also in combat.. Stay the Hand is an immediate action spell that causes the enemy to doubt and possibly not attack / target you with a spell.

Bladeweave is a 2nd level swift cast bard spell that makes a melee bard have a chance to daze an enemy with a weapon strike. Dimension Leap is a short range teleport. Suggestion makes sense for a leader. Elation is another every ally in combat is more effective. Detect Thoughts is a divination spell which helps the leader read the room.

As you can easily see one can make a Bard who does not feel like a Bard but feels like a leader of men who is grumpy. He is not singing songs, and any performance he does is a different perform skill like perform skill oratory / rhetoric who bolsters the troops.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

"Fighter" represents the skill set of someone who is mostly just good at stabbing and not much else. By contrast, this fellow seems like a political survivor who's managed to rise above his station multiple times and become the supreme ruler of a region without even having to fight the nominal central authority. The requirements are then "martial prowess," "no magic/music/etc," and most importantly, "skilled enough to pull that off without magic/music/etc."

To that end I'd focus on classes who provide both skills and martial prowess. Martial (feat) Rogue 2/Warblade 6 taking Able Learner at level 1 works. Plenty of martial prowess, and enough skills (with some INT focus) to max out the key political skills of Sense Motive/Diplomacy/Bluff and have enough points to spread across intimidate/knowledges/spot/listen and so on. He could specialize in White Raven in combat, leading his personal retinue. He's also relatively well-equipped to fend off assassination attempts, what with improved uncanny dodge, evasion, and access to diamond mind maneuvers that replace saves with concentration checks.

[wilphe]

Depends on how your world is structured, but if you in a Human dominated land than a dip into Ranger with Favoured Enemy: Human

Not as powerful as other options but you aren't going for raw power and is easy to keep track of