What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember: the Fighter class is a low powered, laser-focused, 'specific combat technique specialist', suitable primarily to be a trainer in niche combat techniques in, for example, a gladiator or armed martial arts school, but not the actual gladiator themselves, or the leader of the gladiator school or martial arts school, nor are they suitable to be an actual soldier or adventurer or general or watchman or anything else like that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you don't want to find yourself as the puppet to the first 1st level wizard to cast charm person on you, you basically need to be a powerful spellcaster yourself; it just doesn't make any kind of sense for the person in charge not to be, since casters are easily the most powerful people in any 3.5 setting, and a mid to high level one can easily take over entire countries without too much trouble.

So if the guy isn't a dedicated spellcaster, he's the pawn of someone who is, no matter his own thoughts on the subject.

[Batcathat]

If you don't want to find yourself as the puppet to the first 1st level wizard to cast charm person on you, you basically need to be a powerful spellcaster yourself; it just doesn't make any kind of sense for the person in charge not to be, since casters are easily the most powerful people in any 3.5 setting, and a mid to high level one can easily take over entire countries without too much trouble.

So if the guy isn't a dedicated spellcaster, he's the pawn of someone who is.

I imagine kings in D&D would have the magical equivalent of Secret Service agents to look out for things like that. Not that a clever or powerful enough caster couldn't overcome that (and there's always the risk of the guards themselves conspiring against the king), but I'm not sure the king has to be a spellcaster anymore than a real life president have to be able to overpower assassins personally.

[Maat Mons]

If you’re maintaining that the order of build choices must correspond to the chronology of his backstory, you could have a problem with ability scores. If this guy spent his youth training to be a Fighter with no concern for other pursuits, he’d put all his points in Strength and Constitution, while dumping Charisma. At level 8, he would have realized he needs charisma for leading, but investing that ability increase only brings him up to 9 Cha. You said he got up to Fighter 4 before he gained any political power, so he’s missed the chance to put that ability increase in Charisma.

I’ll second the suggestion of Feat Rogue. That’s actually the class I think all town guards should have. Listen and Spot are necessary to notice thieves skulking around. Sense Motive is necessary to determine if people are lying to you. Gather Information is what you roll to question bystanders. And Intimidate helps you convince people to surrender, so you don’t have beat every suspect unconscious. Fighter doesn’t have most of those as class skills, and only gets 2+Int skill points anyway. Really, the Fighter class is only suited to putting swords into people, not keeping watch, or organizing a platoon, or any of the other non-stabby things you’d want your armed men doing.

[Gavinfoxx]

I’ll second the suggestion of Feat Rogue. That’s actually the class I think all town guards should have.

I prefer heavily ACFed Ranger. Something like one of these two:

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1512349
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1245657

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jay R
I’m looking for a class that’s primarily about rulership. It should include Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive as class skills.

I think your best match is the Noble from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, which Biggus mentioned earlier. The Noble has all the class skills you indicated, plus Inspire Confidence and an ability called Coordinate, which gives a minor boost to other peoples’ checks, but only out of combat. It’s exactly the sort of ability you’d expect a thoughtful ruler to have.

The noble also has Favor checks, which he can use to get information or materials from his network of contacts, which in this case could be other nobles or leading figures in his province. Again, this is exactly the sort of thing a ruler would cultivate.

The Noble is non-magical, non-flashy, and very much at home working within stable power structures, which seems to be exactly where your accidental governor is standing.

[Berenger]

I guess the optimal ruler is some sort of high level primary caster, but that's kind of boring because it is the answer to everything.

For Lord Angmar, if restricted to core classes, I'd go with Rogue and trade away the Sneak Attack for Fighter Bonus Feats so he can stay relevant as a fighter a bit longer. Diplomacy, Knowledge (Local), Perform (Oratory) and Sense Motive should be the most important skills for a noble. Bluff, Forgery (to detect forgeries) and Intimidate might also come in handy at times. After a few levels, you can max out some of these and afford to throw a few spare skill points towards cross-class ranks in Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty).

Together, these skills should enable a lord to have a firm grasp on the laws, customs and political landscape of the land, make well-informed diplomatic and military decisions, negotiate with the king and higher nobles, inspire soldiers on a battlefield, have a chance to root out liars and conspirators, get unruly subordinates to fall in line and pass reasonably just and fair judgements in court (if so inclined).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I imagine kings in D&D would have the magical equivalent of Secret Service agents to look out for things like that. Not that a clever or powerful enough caster couldn't overcome that (and there's always the risk of the guards themselves conspiring against the king), but I'm not sure the king has to be a spellcaster anymore than a real life president have to be able to overpower assassins personally.

Which is more powerful, twenty 12th level wizards and a 20th level warrior NPC class with feats fighter or a single 20th level wizard?

[Jervis]

Which is more powerful, twenty 12th level wizards and a 20th level warrior NPC class with feats fighter or a single 20th level wizard?

Depends, can one of those wizards cast anti magic field?

[Lhurgyof]

I think as far as prestige classes go, you can look into exemplar. It's out of his reach currently without cheesing skill ranks, but I think it would fit a character such as this.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Depends, can one of those wizards cast anti magic field?

Even if they can, that would hardly help. By that level, there are lots of ways for a wizard to completely ignore AMFs, even while attacking from a completely different plane of existence.

[Zanos]

Which is more powerful, twenty 12th level wizards and a 20th level warrior NPC class with feats fighter or a single 20th level wizard?

While I agree, that's not what we're talking about. A 4th level wizard doesn't have substantially greater defenses against charm person than a 4th level fighter, other than a marginally better base will save bonus.

[InvisibleBison]

If you don't want to find yourself as the puppet to the first 1st level wizard to cast charm person on you

How exactly is charm person, which merely makes the person think of you as their friend, going to let a wizard make the king their puppet? I don't know about you, but I don't automatically go along with everything my friends suggest. You're not doing your point (which I largely agree with, incidentally) any favors with this sort of hyperbole.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How exactly is charm person, which merely makes the person think of you as their friend, going to let a wizard make the king their puppet? I don't know about you, but I don't automatically go along with everything my friends suggest. You're not doing your point (which I largely agree with, incidentally) any favors with this sort of hyperbole.

It's a way to wriggle one's way in. If the king sees you as a trusted friend, that's a lot closer than a perfect stranger would get, which is an opportunity for all kinds of things. Fighters aren't really known for mental stats, Will saves, or social skills, and all wizards need are Int and Con (and sorcerers have high Cha and social skills as class skills; clerics have social skills and good reason for decent Cha; etc). Adding extra Wis and Cha on them is much easier than it is on a fighter, making the latter even more vulnerable.

Basically, even a 1st level wizard has a better than decent chance of cozying up to a high level fighter in a highly-placed political position, and unless the fighter has spellcasters of his own (which could easily take over themselves, if they so wanted; why wouldn't they want to be the power behind the throne, given how easy it would be?), even that low-level wizard can cause all sorts of problems that a spellcaster wouldn't really have issues with.

[Jay R]

I know this post is long. I’ve been re-writing it all day, as new posts came in with new ideas. There may be inconsistencies here. I’ve changed my mind based on your advice several times today.

Everybody, thank you for all your help. I’m learning a lot, even from the people whose ideas don’t match what I’m trying to do.

Evidently, I’m still not communicating to everyone. I’m looking for a class that will make Angmar a more effective leader in the throne room, the council chamber, and the great hall -- not in battle.

None of the Warblade’s abilities have any use except during a battle. And it doesn’t have either Bluff or Sense Motive as class skills. A Legendary Tactician has the skills I need, but its only class feature of any value when the swords are sheathed is the bonus to Leadership.

He can’t take Legendary Leader or Warmaster until after he is sixth level, because he needs to have the Leadership feat first. And Legendary Leader’s only real value is Legendary Reputation; his other class features are for battle only.

A Warmaster also requires 5 ranks of Diplomacy, which is cross-class for Fighters.

Generic Warrior is an interesting idea, but at first level, when he chose his skills, he would have chosen fighting-oriented ones, not ruling-oriented ones.

To be a Noble, you have to start life that way. Angmar didn’t.

Some people have pointed out, correctly, that I'm the DM and can relax the entry requirements if I choose. That's true, but it doesn't seem reasonable to stretch the rules for what is intended to be a non-optimal build.

Gavinfoxx, I know that Fighter is a lousy base for a leader. That’s actually the point. When he was a Fighter, he wasn’t intending to be a leader; he was focused on combat skills. Only after he found himself a governor did he start trying to build rulership skills. Fighter is the basic fighting class, which is all he was until he found himself ruling.

But the people suggesting Feat Rogue have just about convinced me. If he started as a town guard, he would likely choose Intimidate, Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, and maybe even a couple of levels of Diplomacy. I hate to give up the hit points, but you can’t have everything. And it seems weird to have a Rogue whose lowest ability score is DEX, but he’s not moving silently, opening locks, picking pockets, or escaping.

Still, hit points are important for a front-line fighter, and I may split the difference. With an INT and CON of 14, the fourth level Angmar could be:

Fighter 4: 28 skill points, 37.5 expected hit points, three bonus feats.
Feat Rogue 4: 70 skill points, 26 expected hit points, three bonus feats.
Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2: 58 skill points, 31 expected hit points, four bonus feats.

[In my game, the first level hit points are at maximum, and other levels are at least half value, so a Fighter gets at least 5, and a Rogue gets at least 3. The average for a d10 with this minimum is 6.5, and the average of a d6 is 4.]

Fighter 4 is clearly out. So his first two levels will be Feat Rogue. Switching to Fighter for the next 2 gets him roughly 5 more hit points and another bonus feat, at a cost of 12 skill points (& uncanny dodge). And it's closer to the original concept. Hmmmm…

A little more detail: A governor at the very edge of a far-flung empire was rising up against an ineffective emperor. A military unit was sent to deal with it. Their orders were to put down the rebellion and take charge. Most of the fighting happened after they were already in the keep, and spilled into the throne room with the governor himself. Angmar was newly promoted to lieutenant, 2nd or 3rd in command, nut with no real experience yet as one of the leaders. When he saw his superiors fall, he was close enough to the governor to run forward and slay him. Then he called out, “Hold! He will never pay you again.”

He was standing over the governor’s body with a bloody sword. The dead governor’s guards looked around, unsure what to do. Angmar called out again, “But I will. I am the new governor. Swear that you did not support his treason, and that you will loyally serve me and the emperor, and you will be forgiven, and may continue as my second company of guards.” [Obviously the unit he came with would be the first corps.] They were outnumbered, and frankly, they didn’t care who ruled. They all swore.

Angmar had numerical superiority in the throne room, but not in the courtyard, and claiming to be the new governor was the only way he could think of to win the battle. He was in command of his unit now anyway, so it stood. He walked out on the balcony, announced to the courtyard that the old governor was dead, and basically repeated his offer – with the captain of the old governor’s guard at his side. Angmar became the new governor, and since the emperor was distracted, it was allowed to stand.

[In fact, the rebellion was far more widespread than they knew, and continued for years. This province hasn’t heard from the empire for years, and does not know that the emperor is dead, and the center of the empire is in the middle of a five-way civil war from five different claimants to the throne. By design, it will have no impact on the PCs’ adventures. Angmar is essentially all the government there is. I have a somewhat competent but average leader in place for the same reason that Cornelius Fudge was the Minister of Magic in Harry Potter – so the PCs will get all the adventures.]

Again, I’m looking for a class that will make Angmar more effective in the throne room, the council chamber, and the great hall.

The idea of a bard based on inspiring oratory is an interesting one. I’ll consider that. But his Perform skill would be low, since he only started acquiring it at fifth level. And I'm leery about losing Fort save and more hit points.

He will certainly have at least Marshal 1. The best features (for Angmar) of the first four levels of Marshal are on level 1: double CHA bonus plus skill focus (Diplomacy). Clearly, he needs that first. After that, I’m thinking either 3 more levels of Marshal or Bardic Sage 3 with Perform (inspiring oratory).

Reminder: There has been (mostly) peace and prosperity for a long time, so there have not been many opportunities to gain experience points. By the time the PCs reach levels 6-9, they will be significant heroes of the area. Compared to most 3.5 games, it’s a very low-powered world – sufficiently so that a 4th level could plausibly take over a province and hold it. There may be a very high level wizard out there somewhere, but there aren’t many, and they are not that active now.

Note also that a Marshal's will save is just as good as a wizard's.

Thanks again for all your help. Even if I don’t take your ideas now, they may help me build other NPCs.

[Gavinfoxx]

Gavinfoxx, I know that Fighter is a lousy base for a leader. That’s actually the point. When he was a Fighter, he wasn’t intending to be a leader; he was focused on combat skills. Only after he found himself a governor did he start trying to build rulership skills. Fighter is the basic fighting class, which is all he was until he found himself ruling.

What are your thoughts of Ranger with the ACF's I mentioned in those two links?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jay R
Again, I’m looking for a class that will make Angmar more effective in the throne room, the council chamber, and the great hall.

At this point, it might be easier if you approached this in terms of what abilities you want, and then built something with those abilities.

I’ve read your OP and subsequent posts carefully, and in terms of classes the best possible fit I can think of is the Noble. The class description is quite specific that birth is not a prerequisite to be a Noble, at least not mechanically. But if it doesn’t feel right for you, then the question is what abilities do feel right?

If there aren’t any specific class abilities you’re looking for, then you might go for four levels in something that lets you take as many socially-oriented feats as possible. For instance, you might take the Education feat, which gives you all Knowledges as class skills and a +2 bonus on any two of them.

Other than that, I’m not sure if there is another class that emphasizes out-of-combat social interactions and kingdom-building, given the heavy emphasis in 3.5 mechanics on tactical encounters. Your best solution might be to choose the abilities you want and then design a four-level class or PrC to incorporate them.

[Gavinfoxx]

You realize, Jay R, that 3.5e begins to function better when you absolutely remove any concept of 'class as job' or 'you trained in this, and now you are a Fighter', or anything along those lines, and instead start thinking of them as collections of abilities that may or may not accurately model the concept for a specific character and what sorts of things they should be able to do?

This game is VERY VERY VERY poor at being beneficial to people who just want to pick up a level of something to get basic competency in that thing after training in something for a while. It does NOT model organic growth well AT ALL; it basically requires pre-planning a build.

[tiercel]

If you don't want to find yourself as the puppet to the first 1st level wizard to cast charm person on you, you basically need to be a powerful spellcaster yourself

Assuming that you don’t have a secret-spellcasting-service protection detail, or the possibility of a custom protection from <alignment> item (which seems like a pretty sensible thing for rulers to have, I dunno, enchanted bog-standard into the Official Circlet of Office in a world where 1st level mind magic exists), there’s always Shape Soulmeld: Planar Ward. Just sayin’.

——

As for the problem of organic progression with D&D classes, I’d say in-story one way to handle this is to invoke retraining rules, so that past identity can still exist in the backstory but a somewhat-more-optimal-for-current-needs build can obtain in the present.

And I agree with Ramza00 that in general Bard is a pretty good choice in terms of giving the skills and a few nice relevant spells, and refluffing (especially Perform) is for yes: the stereotype of “you spoony bard” complete with hat-with-a-big-feather, lute, and goofy grin certainly doesn’t have to be what a bard is. (Heck, as just one example, I’d argue that while Gandalf is presented as a Wizard archetype, in D&D terms, Gandalf’s actual abilities in the Hobbit/LotR are —mostly offscreen “celestial” nature aside— arguably well modeled as a Bard.)

If this ruler isn’t so much a know-it-all as someone who’s had to pick up a lot on the fly, Bardic Knack ACF might fit well.

Heck, if once he became a ruler he hasn’t had to be on the battlefield much, arguably Inspire Awe ACF indeed might be a better fit than bog-standard Inspire Courage (intimidating oratory of Doom! Also see, literal Doomspeak [feat]). Also, if you’re concerned about Fort saves in particular, there’s Savage Bard variant (thematically fun together with Inspire Awe, but does limit him to Chaotic alignment).

Granted, the benefits of Bard Levels are better if at least some retraining is on the table.

[Jervis]

Just gonna say a single wizard level and he can qualify for Abjurant champion. Does that matter? No but it’s funny.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

None of the Warblade’s abilities have any use except during a battle.

Okay, but

When he was a Fighter, he wasn’t intending to be a leader; he was focused on combat skills.

The point of Warblade is that it replaces whatever Fighter is doing in the build while giving you more skill points. If there's no point of taking Warblade, neither is there a point in taking Fighter - which is fine! Maybe you just go Factotum 8 and ignore the SLAs, and that's half-decent martial prowess (+6 BaB, interesting combat abilities) while having excellent skill-based utility. Or maybe you get enough prowess from Ranger (possibly with some ACFs as suggested), and that's even better skill-wise than Warblade. Maybe throw in a level of Marshal to sacrifice a point of BaB for more skill pumping. But the main reason to take Fighter, for RP or other reasons, is that you need lots of fight-y feats to realize your concept. I don't see that here.

And it doesn’t have either Bluff or Sense Motive as class skills.

This is moot if you take Able Learner at level 1 and take Feat Rogue (or another class with those skills as class skills) at some point, preferably level 1.

[Ramza00]

Evidently, I’m still not communicating to everyone. I’m looking for a class that will make Angmar a more effective leader in the throne room, the council chamber, and the great hall -- not in battle.

Thanks again for all your help. Even if I don’t take your ideas now, they may help me build other NPCs.

And I agree with Ramza00 that in general Bard is a pretty good choice in terms of giving the skills and a few nice relevant spells, and refluffing (especially Perform) is for yes: the stereotype of “you spoony bard” complete with hat-with-a-big-feather, lute, and goofy grin certainly doesn’t have to be what a bard is. (Heck, as just one example, I’d argue that while Gandalf is presented as a Wizard archetype, in D&D terms, Gandalf’s actual abilities in the Hobbit/LotR are —mostly offscreen “celestial” nature aside— arguably well modeled as a Bard.)

If this ruler isn’t so much a know-it-all as someone who’s had to pick up a lot on the fly, Bardic Knack ACF might fit well.

Heck, if once he became a ruler he hasn’t had to be on the battlefield much, arguably Inspire Awe ACF indeed might be a better fit than bog-standard Inspire Courage (intimidating oratory of Doom! Also see, literal Doomspeak [feat]). Also, if you’re concerned about Fort saves in particular, there’s Savage Bard variant (thematically fun together with Inspire Awe, but does limit him to Chaotic alignment).

Granted, the benefits of Bard Levels are better if at least some retraining is on the table.

Some Bard Spells for their Skill and Save Bonuses, aka non combat utility.

3.5

• Instant of Power 1st level, Immediate Action, All or You. You bestow a brief moment of power on your ally, granting a +4 enhancement bonus on his next attack roll, saving throw, or damage roll.
• Improvisation, 1st level, Personal Buff, 1 Round per Level. You gain access to a floating "pool" of luck, which manifests as bonus points you can use as desired to improve your odds of success at various tasks. This bonus pool consists of 2 points per caster level, which you can spend as you like to improve attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks, although no single check can receive a bonus greater than one-half your caster level. You must declare any bonus point usage before the appropriate roll is made. Used points disappear from the pool, and any points remaining when the spell ends are wasted. These points count as luck bonuses for the purpose of stacking.
• Heroism, 2nd level, Ally or You Buff, 10 min per level Buff, +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks.

Pathfinder spells that can be adapted no change.

• Tears to Wine 🍷, 1st level, Party Buff, 10 min per level. Creatures that drink the mead or wine created by this spell become sharp-witted and clear-minded, gaining a +2 enhancement bonus on all Intelligence– and Wisdom-based skill checks. This increases to a +5 bonus at caster level 9th, and to +10 (the maximum) at caster level 15th.
• Moment of Greatness, 1st level, Party Buff, 1 min per level but it is individually dischargable. If the affected creature is benefiting from a morale bonus of any type, it can double that morale bonus on one roll or check, before making the roll. Stacks well with Heroism or Inspire Courage.
• Timely Inspiration, 1st level, Immediate Action. All or You. Cast this spell when a creature fails an attack roll or skill check. The target gains a +1 competence bonus per five caster levels (maximum +3 bonus) on the attack roll or skill check retroactively. If the bonus is enough to make the failure a success, the roll succeeds.
• Gallant Inspiration, 2nd level, Immediate Action. Ally or You. Cast this spell when a creature fails an attack roll or skill check. The creature gains a +2d4 competence bonus to the attack roll or skill check retroactively. If the bonus is enough to turn the failure into a success, the roll succeeds.

And like Tiercel was saying it does not need to be a bard as cheerful flavored, it can be perform oratory that is inspirational, or a Bard who does Perform Profanity where the leader is the grumpy Byronic Hero Scoundrel who curses the fates and his rotten luck and then suddenly the world turns around and he helps his people. Let’s make Han Solo into a King (if Solo started as a Guardsman and not a Scoundrel / Smuggler.)

Forgot about Savage Bard, guess you can mix Sage and Savage bard as well.
One last bit about Tears to Wine one can do that UA / SRD magical trait that is +1 CL for 1 Spell School -1 CL for everything else. That with Practiced Spellcaster will get you +9 to Transmutation and +7 to all other Schools thus allowing +5 to all Wis and Int Skills for non combat encounters. Your leader has Wine no let’s make it a nice glass of Earl Grey Tea, or perhaps Coffee and his mind clears being smarter, wiser, and greater perception.

[lylsyly]

@Jay R: Look it's your NPC. The only three base classes off the top of my head that have the skills you want are Factotum, Rogue and Bard. Perform: Oratory might look good but without Bardic music has no real mechanical use. You could still use Bard and ignore the spellcasting since you have made it clear you don't want it.

The thing about Fighter and Feat Rogue both is those bonus feats are supposed to come off the Fighter bonus feat list, none of which will help you grow as a leader.

A level of Marshall should definately be there for Motivate Charisma since it adds to 3 of the 4 skills you consider necessary.

You should start with a class that has all the skills you want at level 1 and take the able learner feat.
I would recommend Factotum 1 so that every skill in the game is max ranks = ECL+3.
Then Marshall 1 for Motivate Charisma and Skill Focus: Diplomacy.
After that it's all about skill points so use Feat Rogue (actually called Martial Rogue) for the 8 skill points per level, use the 4 bonus feats to emulate his previous martial prowess thus freeing up other feats for boosting leadership skills. Or use the retraining rules on those feats.

I would recommend taking it to level nine and giving him leadership at 9 to increase Cohort level (an Aristocrat may be a good choice for using the Aid Another action on his skill checks). It would also grant him a few more followers.

Bard (- spellcasting) is actually a solid choice as well. Bard has all the skills you want. Use Perform: Oratory and swap Inspire Courage for Inspire Awe. Bard 6 gives you both Fascinate and Suggestion, both thematically good for a ruler.

It's your NPC! It's not like you are going to hand your players a copy of his statblock ;-)

[Jay R]

What are your thoughts of Ranger with the ACF's I mentioned in those two links?

I think that your builds with multiple ACFs are a very clever use of the rules, to create a Ranger who doesn’t feel, act, or play like a ranger. The characters look like they would be effective, and fun to play. If somebody brought in a PC like that, I would have no objections.

But I want my NPCs to fit into the medieval milieu a little more than that. Angmar is supposed to be a medieval commoner who just wanted to be a straight fighter, and then suddenly had his life changed, and is now trying to keep up.

I understand that 3.5e “classes” aren’t classes, and that to optimize a character, one should pre-plan in a way that real people don’t pre-plan their own lives. In my own life, if I had known what my jobs would be, I’d have taken some different classes and picked up some different skills, for instance. Therefore, to create a reasonably effective PC, we all pre-plan their growth from the start.

But this is not a PC, and I’m not trying to make the most effective build possible. I’m trying to make a reasonable build, given the fact that his first four levels were not aimed at what he’s doing now. He spent four levels trying to be the best fighter he could. Then, starting from that point, he shifted gears and spent four levels trying to turn into the best ruler he can.

That’s the character conception, and it doesn’t lead to a perfect leader’s build.

Several of you have come up with very clever ways to circumvent this character conception.

[And I appreciate all of it. I am learning about a lot more than this character.]

He will not be an X 8, for any value of X, even if the first four levels could make a reasonable fighter. He will not have any leadership-based skills in his first four levels, unless I can justify them for a guardsman-only build. Yes, this is different from how we build the best PCs. That’s the point. He had no plan to be an 8th level; he had probably never met an 8th level when he was starting out.

The comment from lylsyly that the feats from Fighter and Feat Rogue will be fighter bonus feats that won’t help him rule is correct. He doesn’t choose anything to help him rule until fifth level. That means that at 8th level, he will only have one feat aimed at his governorship. It will be Leadership unless somebody comes up with something else.

lylsyly also says that Perform (oratory) won’t have any mechanical effect without bardic music. I think he’s mistaken here. Can somebody check my thinking? The Bard class description of spells states “Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).” Under Bardic Music, it states, “…a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him…” What do I need music for that another Perform skill can’t replace?

He’s not going to retrain the Fighter beginning because a good medieval leader must be ready to go to war.

Palanan, you are correct that the Noble class would be perfect for somebody in his position. But it makes some assumptions that do not fit Angmar. He is a commoner in a nobleman’s position.

The description of the Noble class says, “Noble characters are born with either wealth or long family lineage, usually both. Anyone raised in a life of privilege might be a noble, even if they are not termed nobility by society. Nobles may also gain rank and title by advantageous marriages.” Angmar fell into this rank accidentally, and had no idea that he would have it even five minutes earlier. You can dismiss that as fluff, but it also says, “The noble class may be taken only at 1st level. This reflects the idea that one is born to this class.” [This class, unusually for 3.5e, actually represents a class.]

Similarly, the Education feat is not for a common soldier. “In your youth, you received the benefit of formal schooling of some type.” That’s not Angmar.

Other than that, I’m not sure if there is another class that emphasizes out-of-combat social interactions and kingdom-building, given the heavy emphasis in 3.5 mechanics on tactical encounters. Your best solution might be to choose the abilities you want and then design a four-level class or PrC to incorporate them.

I think you’re right. My main conclusion from all this discussion is that the class I’m looking for doesn’t exist, or, like Noble, doesn’t fit Angmar’s situation. And I won’t invent a PrC for an NPC. His build doesn’t have to be perfect.

Both Marshal and Bardic Sage have all the skills I’m after, and some abilities that will help.

So unless somebody comes up with a different plan that convinces me, his first four levels (to be a good fighter) will be either:
Feat Rogue 4 (for an additional 12 skill points), or
Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 (for roughly 5 more hit points and an additional bonus Fighter feat).

His next four levels, to try to become a better ruler, will be either:
Marshal 4, or
Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3.

None of these classes are PrCs. That means that I need to be careful about XP penalties. There would be a penalty for a Feat Rogue 4 / Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3, for instance. The only possibilities without a penalty are:
A. Feat Rogue 4 / Marshal 4
B. Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Marshal 4
C. Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3

[He’s human, so B and C are fine.]

I'm going to assume that he started out as a town guard, and so ranks in Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, and Intimidate make sense. He became a soldier later. When it seemed like he might become an officer, he considered a rank or two in Perform (oratory) at level 4. [Coming up with the right speech at the right time is, after all, how he became governor.

Everyone, thank you for all your suggestions. Angmar has a better design for it, and I know more in general that will affect other NPCs as well.

[Palanan]

Very glad you’ve found an approach that works for your conception of the character. And you’re right, I overlooked the text about the Noble only being available to first-level characters.

I’m curious to see your complete feat selection once you have that worked out. Like you, I’ve got ideas for several NPCs from this, and I’d be very interested in the final version for Angmar.

[Analytica]

Honestly, I can absolutely see a feat rogue 8 as fitting for a town guard. A town guard, unlike a soldier, is more focused on taking and implementing orders, keeping order (in another sense) and resolving/preventing crime or rebellion. They spend more of their time talking to townsfolks (including preventing and redirecting crowds, if needed) than they do marching in an army unit and fighting other armies. That all translates to social skills. And quickly enough they become unit leaders, officers, which translates to more leadership. I could absolutely see a town guard turned governor as a feat rogue 8 with leadership and most of those fighter bonus feats going into things like armor proficiency and so on, just based on what a guard, as opposed to like a phalanx soldier or gladiator does. Same with a bodyguard, sans the leadership.

[lylsyly]

lylsyly also says that Perform (oratory) won’t have any mechanical effect without bardic music. I think he’s mistaken here. Can somebody check my thinking? The Bard class description of spells states “Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).” Under Bardic Music, it states, “…a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him…” What do I need music for that another Perform skill can’t replace?

Hence my statement. Without at least 1 level of bard your perform skill is basically just thematic without a mechanical effect. Go look at the skills section Jay R.

At any rate, I've said my two coppers worth. Good Luck and Good Gaming!! ;-)

[Maat Mons]

With regard to Marshal, what will his Charisma be? If his Cha bonus is +1, doubling it with Motivate Charisma isn't that big a deal.

Have you given any thought to his equipment? Wealth by level for an 8th-level NPC is, 9,400 gp. That's more than enough for a Lesser Choker of Eloquence, which gives a +5 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and vocal forms of Perform. Alternately, if you don't care much about Bluff and Perform, or care about Intimidate, you could do a Circlet of Persuasion and Medal of Gallantry combo. The net effect would be +5 Diplomacy, +1 Bluff, and +3 to all other Cha-based skills.

[Gorthawar]

So unless somebody comes up with a different plan that convinces me, his first four levels (to be a good fighter) will be either:
Feat Rogue 4 (for an additional 12 skill points), or
Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 (for roughly 5 more hit points and an additional bonus Fighter feat).

His next four levels, to try to become a better ruler, will be either:
Marshal 4, or
Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3.

None of these classes are PrCs. That means that I need to be careful about XP penalties. There would be a penalty for a Feat Rogue 4 / Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3, for instance. The only possibilities without a penalty are:
A. Feat Rogue 4 / Marshal 4
B. Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Marshal 4
C. Feat Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3

[He’s human, so B and C are fine.]

I'm going to assume that he started out as a town guard, and so ranks in Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, and Intimidate make sense. He became a soldier later. When it seemed like he might become an officer, he considered a rank or two in Perform (oratory) at level 4. [Coming up with the right speech at the right time is, after all, how he became governor.

Everyone, thank you for all your suggestions. Angmar has a better design for it, and I know more in general that will affect other NPCs as well.

Something that might work for you / Angmar is the Warrior Skald prestige class. It gives you all the bardic music abilities and some extra ones but loses out on the spellcasting abilities that might not quite fit into the concept of Angmar.

You could build him as Feat Rogue2/Fighter2/Crusader1/Marshal1/Warrior Skald2 for example.

The level in Crusader gives you concentration as class skill to get into the prestige class and some ToB goodies like the bolstering voice stance to encourage all his allies (and himself) even further. Having a number of martial maneuvers at hand never hurts either.

Edit: Changed order of classes to avoid use of cross class skills.
Edit2: I have a vague memory that it clarified somewhere that perform:oratory would work as qualification for Warrior Skald but I might be wrong. It's obviously in your hands as DM to allow it anyways.

[Jay R]

Warrior Skald is a good idea, but I can't make it work. It requires 9 ranks of Perform and 6 ranks of Concentration, which would be hard to manage while trying to pump more ranks into Diplomacy and Sense Motive. Besides, Warrior Skald is not 3.5. The only version I know of is 3.0. I'll make exceptions to the rules for PCs, but not for NPCs (unless I really need it).

His Charisma started at 15, and goes up to 16 at level 8. [No, this doesn't conflict with the idea that he was training to be a soldier. He didn't choose his charisma, strength, or intelligence, anymore than you or I did.]

I've noticed one thing comparing the Marshal 4 build with Marshal 1 / Bardic Sage 3. Bardic Sage has 8 + INT bonus skill ranks per level compared to 6 + INT bonus for Marshal. But a Bard should pump points into Spellcraft, Concentration, and Perform (and possibly Knowledge (arcana)), leaving fewer points for the social skills than the Marshal class allows.

By the way, he will have 7 feats by the time he reaches 4th level (1st, 3rd, Human, two bonus feats from Feat Rogue, and two bonus from Fighter). Since I doubt if I will ever use him in a fight, except at the head of a company, I don't care that much what they are. My current plan is:

Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Danger Sense, Weapon Focus (longsword), and one more. Pretty basic and unoriginal, but 4th level Angmar is just that. Any recommendations for the last one? Anything wrong with the ones I've listed for a "mere" soldier?

Again, it's not necessary to optimize. What would a town guard turned soldier have chosen?

Also, at 6th level, he will take Leadership, unless somebody comes up with a better feat for a governor. His cohort will be 4th level at that time, 6th level now. What do you recommend for the one higher-level character in the province whom he can trust completely? This can be somebody properly trained for his job (which Angmar is not). [Obviously his followers will include a bookkeeper, seneschal, etc. -- provincial officers with no need for a combat background.]