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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Maat Mons's Avatar

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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    The traditional options for the cohort would be Cleric or Wizard. But I'm going to suggest Archivist. Being an Int-focused character, he'd make a good advisor. But I feel like the Cleric spell list is more desirable from the perspective of keeping the province safe and prosperous. Plus, you can give him some choice non-Cleric spells, like Plant Growth, which lets him single handedly revolutionize the agriculture of the region.

    Will the cohort also have the leadership feat?

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Human cleric 5/barbarian 1/cleric 3+
    H improved initiative
    1 power attack
    3 touch of healing
    6 leap attack
    9 shock trooper

    Also considering this is not a player but a npc, you can add anything really, so leadership would definitely be great.


    If you really want to go material class and the fighter 4 go, fighter 4/cleric 4 than just keep pump cleric. If you want the "leadership qualities than just do fighter 4 rogue 4+

    Or even crazier
    Human fighter 4/rogue 1/cleric 1/rogue 2+
    Take able learner and than healing devotion and extra turning somewhere. After ever combat he can heal himself with the turns. Or switch out rogue for bard.
    Fighter 4/cleric 1/bard3+ go with the feat mentioned before for those skills you want, trade in healing for healing devotion as free feat than extra turning.
    Last edited by Rleonardh; 2022-06-21 at 09:34 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    So what is that class?
    Cleric is always the best for social control.

    Cure Minor Wounds - stops people from bleeding out. This is better than modern medicine can do.
    Zone of Truth - pretty much ends all crime.
    Remove Disease/Blindness/Deafness - stop plagues before they start, and again, better than the Mayo clinic.
    Plant Growth (with Plant domain) - equal to modern fertilizer, and a single 5th level cleric can support a small city. This single-handedly rings in the Industrial Revolution, because your society has so much food it can afford to invest in craftsmen.

    The ability to heal soldiers, save birthing mothers, and cure children makes for very loyal henchman. And that's at 5th level, before you can raise the people who die serving you.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    *Cloistered* Cleric!

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Depending on how active he is in military campaigns, how about society mind?

    Not all kings sit on a throne and direct operations from behind the back lines (or just allow his heads of military to do it while he [occasionally] pretends to be useful); some are warriors and conquerors, and being able to directly link all of his generals' minds together while buffing and healing them could give a significant edge in major offensive and defensive operations.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2022-06-24 at 08:28 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    After the fighter bit of his career, straight bard. Not for spells, or performance. But for the skills and bardic knowledge.

    He begins to take lessons in oratory, aka the ability to give a speech. Very necessary for a leader of any type.
    He has access to an ability to boost morale.
    He has access to a good number of skill points which is fluffed by he has access to tutors and a library.
    He has access to bluff and sense motive due to counselors and being in constant back and forth discussions on laws and holding court.
    He now has access to knowledge of magic to prepare himself against it in the near future.
    "Holy SHIZ, the wizard can control me by uttering a few words which takes less than 3 seconds! I need to defend my mind"
    He now has a limited ability to learn spells which clearly indicates he didn't have proper schooling for years.
    He isn't beholden to a church or deity which could turn away many possible allies.
    He has access to just know stuff via Bardic knowledge. Maybe he heard it in the bar, in the soldiers tents on the battlefield, maybe from that book in the library, or maybe at the conference table.
    Still able to wear a chain shirt to display I was a fighter in the trenches.


    I dislike wizard as a leader for the simple reason wizards have to study for hours. at least 1 to learn spells, at least 1 to transcribe new spells, no more armor.
    I dislike cleric unless we are going for a theocracy. Even when going for the concept instead of deity option.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by gijoemike View Post
    I dislike cleric unless we are going for a theocracy. Even when going for the concept instead of deity option.
    You know who the best type of leader is? A cleric of the concept of "good governance."

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Just from the opening post (the few setting details we get) I think…


    Continue with the martial class (unless he starts leading from the back i think he will lead by the sword)

    However that rarely gets the skills needed for statecraft. A two/three level dip into something else is advised (and the point of the thread)


    Sorcerer (some myths have the ruler of the land have a bond with the land. Can substitute with bard/druid for more wilderness kingdoms)

    Cleric (especially if he wants support from a LG congregation)

    Knight (an actual class; provides a number of handy skills. Still martial)

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Well if he is a Frontliner than he limited to light armor if going bard. With that being said bard definitely has some good things going for it.

    Cleric with plant domain let's you be a neutral cleric that can go all the way from chaotic good to chaotic neutral in alignment which is a great chunk of population.

    Bard if archery
    Cleric if melee

    Ehlonna can do plant and celerity domains
    Celerity has haste btw.
    Last edited by Rleonardh; 2022-06-24 at 08:51 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahzi Coyote View Post
    Cleric is always the best for social control.

    Cure Minor Wounds - stops people from bleeding out. This is better than modern medicine can do.
    Zone of Truth - pretty much ends all crime.
    Remove Disease/Blindness/Deafness - stop plagues before they start, and again, better than the Mayo clinic.
    Plant Growth (with Plant domain) - equal to modern fertilizer, and a single 5th level cleric can support a small city. This single-handedly rings in the Industrial Revolution, because your society has so much food it can afford to invest in craftsmen.

    The ability to heal soldiers, save birthing mothers, and cure children makes for very loyal henchman. And that's at 5th level, before you can raise the people who die serving you.
    Running around on a battlefield to try and save the lives of a handful wounded soldiers, acting as a court clerk and spamming Zone of Truth until the last one in a bunch of suspect cattle thieves fails his will save, healing two people per day from disease and blessing farmland 0,7 acres at a time is actually kind of nice if you are responsible for the welfare of some idyllic village.

    Lord Angmar is supposed to govern a whole province of an empire. If we take something like the Roman Empire as an example, we are talking about a domain roughly the size of England with anywhere from a few hundred thousand to a few million inhabitants. If the ruler of a political entity on this scale develops a habit of wasting his time getting involved in that kind of micro-management, all is lost.

    This guy should concentrate on doing his actual job, which is making political and military decisions that affect the province as a whole. This absolutely includes fostering and maintaining a good relationship with religious cults whose members can in turn provide above services to the population.
    Last edited by Berenger; 2022-06-25 at 08:57 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    To add onto what i already said i know you don't want an NPC class but you actually describe it as it being quite peaceful...

    Are you sure you don't want expert?

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Hm. How about something a bit more heterodox? Start out with Warblade instead of Fighter (a good excuse to have decent INT that comes with Diplomacy, Intimidate and Knowledge (history+local) as class skills), boost CHA at 4 (justifying it with his being an officer at that point and thus needing it) and then switch over to Master ProfessionalDLCS. Master Professional gets 8+INT skill points per level, Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), Sense Motive (all good skills for someone who wants to deal with diplomacy, politics (in terms of intrigue and policy making) and other ruling-related activities), Appraise (fluff it as a head for economics), Handle Animal and Ride (good for representation). Other class skills can be used for a humanising final touch: Heal, Knowledge (nature) and Survival are skills fit for a weary leader who likes to spend some time out in the wild hunting and stuff to get rid of excess steam. As for Knacks, he can take, I don't know, Fast-Talk at level 5 (fluff it as the ability to smoothly produce the white lies needed to calm down troops or crowds on the verge of panic), and (here comes the important bit) Faithful Aide at level 8, alongside pumping his CHA further for a whole freakin' extra cohort in addition to the one granted by Leadership which he took two levels earlier. (And if you're really worried about mages with mind control, make one of those cohorts, I don't know, an aasimar (not the lesser version; you don't want 'em to be humanoid) Paladin 2/Monk 3 with Mage Slayer and call it a day.)

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Maat Mons's Avatar

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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Nitpick: The area affected by a single casting of Plant Growth is about 0.7854 square miles, which is about 502.7 acres. In fairness, that still only lets a single caster keep about 1,800 hectares of land covered, if he's limited to one casting per day. That's a little less than 10,000 5th-level Druids (or Archivists) to handle an England's-worth of farmland.

    But the trick is, you don't have 10,000 Druids (or Archivists) going around casting Plant Growth. You have 1st-level Commoners (or whatever) going around using 10,000 Hands of the Oak Father. Those are 5,000-gp items that can cast Plant Growth once per day.

    But where do you get 10,000 Hands of the Oak Father? You have a bunch of 3rd-level Adepts (or whatever) with the Craft Wonderous Item feat make them. Each one takes 5 man-days to complete, so factor in however-many Adepts (or whatever) with Craft Wonderous Item you can lay your hands on, and you know how long this will take to get up and running.

    You may notice that Adepts don't natively gain access to the spells that serve as prerequisites for crafting a Hand of the Oak Father. But that's okay, because those spells can be supplied from an item. And the item perfectly suited to supply those spells is … an Hand of the Oak Father. So you just need one 5th-level Druid (or Archivist) to craft a few, then you can hand them off to your 3rd-level Adepts (or whatever) for duplication.

    So why did I recommend making the cohort an Archivist? Why not just get some random 5th-level Druid to help you kick this off? Well, this sounds like a pretty low-level setting, so 5th-level characters would be hard to come by. And a lot of Druids are kind of reclusive, and not very fond of agriculture. Finding an NPC both willing and able to help you get this started could be tough. Plus, the Archivist cohort has lots of other benefits.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    10,000 Hands of the Oak Father
    You might as well start going through my Post Scarcity D&D handbook at that point!

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Je09i8KWw/edit

    That said, it was a good idea and I added your idea to my handbook.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2022-06-25 at 04:29 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Nitpick: The area affected by a single casting of Plant Growth is about 0.7854 square miles, which is about 502.7 acres.
    Thanks. I was halfway into a rant about the horrors of imperial system when I realized that I just accidentally calculated the area for "Overgrowth" instead of "Enrichment".

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Not sure what book it's in but for cleric you can give up ability to spontaneously cast cure/cause wounds and instead cast domain spells from one domain you have.

    That's a few castings per day of that spell.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berenger View Post
    This absolutely includes fostering and maintaining a good relationship with religious cults whose members can in turn provide above services to the population.
    You mean there are already spell-casters who can do all of this?

    Then it doesn't matter what his classes are, because sooner or later a cleric will replace him.

    Why would anyone follow anyone else when there is a guy in the room who can bring you or your loved ones back from the dead?

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Nitpick: The area affected by a single casting of Plant Growth is about 0.7854 square miles, which is about 502.7 acres.
    If he only casts during one season (100 days), that's still farmland for 12,500 people.

    But apparently the setting already has a bunch of casters to do this.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahzi Coyote View Post
    You mean there are already spell-casters who can do all of this?

    Then it doesn't matter what his classes are, because sooner or later a cleric will replace him.

    Why would anyone follow anyone else when there is a guy in the room who can bring you or your loved ones back from the dead?
    Since this is a D&D setting and we are talking about a huge area with many inhabitants: yes, I assume there are other spellcasters.

    Why wouldn't everybody want a cleric as their ruler?

    First, for the same reason you don't see masses of neurosurgeons or NAVY Seals become mayors, governors or presidents: because their abilities (while awesome, rare, life-saving / life-threatening and totally out of reach for an average person) don't have a strong synergy with the characteristics needed to be a competent administrator and leader. Also, because pursuit of a political career would deprive those specialists of the time and opportunity to actually use the unique abilities that make them valuable both in their respective fields and to their society in the first place.

    Second, the average society in a D&D setting is polytheistic. Making the cleric of one particular god the ruler is a good way to alienate the followers of any number of rival or morally opposed gods. Those other gods likely have powerful clerics of their own. If this has led to (un)holy civil wars in the past, a country likely has widely popular laws in place against clerics as rulers.

    Third, just because someone can do awesome and miraculous things, that doesn't mean he will actually do them for you. If Resurrections are hard to do, expensive and rare in the setting, the new ruler has to be very stingy with them. If they are somehow made cheap and available en masse, some chaotic good hippy cleric will already dole them out for free. Also, there are pleasant afterlifes most of the time. If my dear departed were decent people, I'm likely not doing them much of a favor pulling them back.
    Last edited by Berenger; 2022-06-26 at 10:03 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahzi Coyote View Post
    Why would anyone follow anyone else when there is a guy in the room who can bring you or your loved ones back from the dead?
    He can bring them back from the dead for 5,000 gp worth of diamonds. Even if the cleric were willing to pay for it himself, he doesn't have 5,000 gp of diamonds per person in the province. In fact, Angmar doesn't even have 5,000 gp worth of diamonds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahzi Coyote View Post
    But apparently the setting already has a bunch of casters to do this.
    Speaking as the DM, I have never said this, and it isn't true. Previously, I wrote, "The last couple of hundred years have been times of peace and prosperity, and the empire has expanded a great deal, although the expansion has been slowed or stopped for the last few decades. Among other things, this means that there aren't many high-level characters around; with little or no monsters around, it's hard to get experience points."

    At 8th level, Angmar is probably the highest level character in the province. His 6th level cohort is one of the three or so at that level.

    I've decided that the cohort will not have plant growth, for all the reasons that people are suggesting having it. If he had it, he'd be wandering all over the province casting it, and people would already know a lot about him (and therefore Angmar). Most of the PCs come from a little village on the very edge of the province, which has had no visitor from the government for decades. But its days of quiet isolation are about to end. [One PC has run away from her arranged marriage, and comes from further in.]

    In the opening episode, there will be falling star, which will strike a mountain in the wilderness, about 15-20 miles from the village. The PCs will be asked to investigate, and after they deal with the issue, they will meet some of Angmar's men who have been sent to look into it. They will have no idea who this "Angmar" person is. Only the fleeing PC will even know who he is, and what authority he has, and she will probably assume that they are coming after her.

    Therefore the cohort will not be wandering around the province making people happy about Angmar's rule.

    But keep the ideas coming, if you like. I'm mining them for further ideas.

    In fact, I've decided not to design the cohort until I need him, and then I will give him the abilities I need. Until then, Angmar has Schrödinger's cohort.
    Last edited by Jay R; 2022-06-26 at 11:35 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Until then, Angmar has Schrödinger's cohort.
    So, undead catfolk?

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Pure fighters will easily be replaced unless backed by divine and arcane.

    And dude all good gods get along with others only ones that will be against you will be evil aligned 😂

    Honestly I'd go this if you want to stay fighter.

    Fighter 4/barbarian 1/cleric 1/fighter 2
    Acf barbarian pounce

    H improved initiative
    1 power attack
    1f cleave
    2f combat reflexes
    3 improved bull rush
    4f leap attack
    6 extra turning
    6cd healing devotion
    6cd sun devotion
    8f shock trooper

    Use your turns to help fight vs undead and also at 8th level each turn = 20 hp after battle.
    So healing devotion is 1
    Extra turning is 4
    Cleric base is 3+ cha so at least 8 at 10 cha.

    Level 10 it's 30hp per turn.

    Bard is good also, many skill points that you want, spells that can help role,buff, heal, summon monsters, and inspiration.

    Good old hold person on a fighter = dead ruler 😉

    Rogue 1/druid 7 would be even better and a better fighter to boot.
    H able learner
    1 improved initiative
    3 natural bond
    6 natural spell
    Last edited by Rleonardh; 2022-06-26 at 02:32 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Kobold

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    Question Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Speaking as the DM, I have never said this, and it isn't true. Previously, I wrote, "The last couple of hundred years have been times of peace and prosperity, and the empire has expanded a great deal, although the expansion has been slowed or stopped for the last few decades. Among other things, this means that there aren't many high-level characters around; with little or no monsters around, it's hard to get experience points."

    At 8th level, Angmar is probably the highest level character in the province. His 6th level cohort is one of the three or so at that level.
    Have you looked at my handbooks in detail? Are the amount of casters increasing? Will there be NPC casters like Magewrights, Gleaners (3rd party), Religious (ie, Domain) Adepts, Augurs (3rd party), Soulshapers (Homebrew), and the like, or just easy to train classes like Warlocks, which might be able to manage the backbone of some of these economic initiatives. A lot of the spells mentioned are QUITE low level; even there only being a lot of level 4 casters (for 2nd level spells and powers, and the item creation feats that support them) should be enough to cause a lot of prosperity.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Je09i8KWw/edit

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Have you looked at my handbooks in detail? Are the amount of casters increasing? Will there be NPC casters like Magewrights, Gleaners (3rd party), Religious (ie, Domain) Adepts, Augurs (3rd party), Soulshapers (Homebrew), and the like, or just easy to train classes like Warlocks, which might be able to manage the backbone of some of these economic initiatives. A lot of the spells mentioned are QUITE low level; even there only being a lot of level 4 casters (for 2nd level spells and powers, and the item creation feats that support them) should be enough to cause a lot of prosperity.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Je09i8KWw/edit
    I have read the post-scarcity handbook carefully, and taken notes for use by my PCs in other games. It's very well researched and written.

    This game is intended to hold onto a medieval or legendary flavor, which is opposed to post-scarcity. We are approaching a time similar to the fall of Rome or the death of Charlemagne, not the Renaissance or the Industrial Revolution. It's like Sauron is about to organize the orcs, or the White Witch is started her eternal winter.

    The underground cultures and other planes are about to re-emerge. There will soon be an influx of monsters and Chaotic cultures from other planes, and the civilization will be under siege. It will be struggling to defend itself, not growing economically.

    This is the dawn of an Age of Heroes, as they struggle against the rising tide of invasions from forces of Evil and Chaos. There have been Ages of Heroes before. NPCs will rise in power and levels at about the same rate that the PCs do. Soon, the highest level characters will be the ones spending all their time facing the monsters, not sitting at home researching.

    Lord Angmar is designed to be able to understand threats to his realm, but not to be able to defend it against them without the PCs.

    Yes, there was no way to know all this. I tried to give all the information relevant to creating Angmar, and no more.
    Last edited by Jay R; 2022-06-26 at 03:58 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    It's like Sauron is about to organize the orcs, or the White Witch is started her eternal winter.
    Keep in mind, Sauron was a force of industrialization and progress against pastoral stagnancy. Look up the fanfiction novel, 'The Last Ringbearer' by Kirill Eskov for an interesting perspective on this topic.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Than just go rogue for nothing but the skill set.
    As you said a bad npc lord as no arcane or divine or so g for him.

    That leaves in phb
    Barbarian more hp and acf pounce, no one wants a conquer
    Fighter go barbarian 1 at least, but hopefully you got people whom he can trust. But than again I cast hold person or charm person.
    Monk saves only basically, be one with oneself
    Rogue skillset you want, but you alienate good people as no one can trust a politician.
    Last edited by Rleonardh; 2022-06-26 at 06:10 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Keep in mind, Sauron was a force of industrialization and progress against pastoral stagnancy.
    Giggle. Well, yes, in the sense of fumes and pollution and destruction of lands and trees and cruel magics of fear and enslavement. I suspect that Tolkien would have agreed with this quote from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader:
    Quote Originally Posted by C. S. Lewis
    "But that would be putting the clock back," gasped the Governor. "Have you no idea of progress, of development?"’

    "I have seen them both in an egg," said Caspian. "We call it Going bad in Narnia."

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Giggle. Well, yes, in the sense of fumes and pollution and destruction of lands and trees and cruel magics of fear and enslavement. I suspect that Tolkien would have agreed with this quote from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader:
    Tolkein was very anti industrialization. That's why I suggested that book -- it's a different perspective on the events of LotR, and it is reasonable to see the canon events of the story as having a bit of unreliable narrator syndrome. It's an interesting take, look it up! ;)

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Giggle. Well, yes, in the sense of fumes and pollution and destruction of lands and trees and cruel magics of fear and enslavement. I suspect that Tolkien would have agreed with this quote from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader:
    Tolkien and Lewis were good friends. I wouldn't be too surprised at similar themes popping up in their works.

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: What PC class should a well-designed ruler have?

    So here are a few options that might work for you:

    First off I think Paladin of Freedom might be a better option here than fighter. He starts with bluff and sense motives, he is a charismatic fighter and he would have the thematic drive to usurp the old ruler. Also you could add in Harmonious Knight ACLs and From Smite to Song feat to have more of a leader type of feel.

    Harmonious Knight Paladin of Freedom 6/Feat Rogue 2 actually looks like quite a good fit for your leader all around and if he gains a level or two you could look at legendary leader or warmaster for finish things off.

    On the sidenote of the issues with Noble class, you are the DM so you could simply say he qualifies for Noble once he becomes the lord and at which point he starts to undergo training as a noble. That seems pretty reasonable to me and doesn't fall to far outside the requirements for the class.
    Last edited by liquidformat; 2022-06-27 at 12:47 PM. Reason: missed a page before responding

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