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2022-06-18, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
I'm interested in being a magic user. for the thing I guess I'll play lawful good.
What are the mage classes and what do you reccomend for min maxing as far as how to be as efficient and proficient as posible.
I don't think my DM will be a sadist and kill us but I like to be as efficient in real life to min maxing in the game would also likely be what I'd do, without compromising the rest of the party or their share of treasure.
also, can you cross class in 2nd edition? I might be acleric too, but mage would be my ideal choice as I've heard they level up exponentially vs a lateral leveling like a fighter.
and I don't know what build I'd be geared for either.
what race is most adept at magic? would I want to be an older guy as they get a wisdom boost I think?
Basically, I heard from a youtube personality that bards are some OP but the requirements are insane for 2nd edition.
maybe in future gaming sessions I won't be so min max obsessed, and go for a more casual approach, but for now I'm thinking a good build and figuring out what is ideal would be great.Last edited by WolvesbaneIII; 2022-06-18 at 01:22 PM.
Vae Victus!
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2022-06-18, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
If you want to be a mage, if you're starting at level 1, you're going to have some hard times. Mages are incredibly weak at 1st level. They have 1d4 HP, can't wear armor, and have a very limited selection of weapons, and can only cast 1 spell a day.
My advice is, if you can get the Sleep spell, do so. It's sort of a win button at early levels (although it drops in usefulness later on). You only get one weapon proficiency until 6th level, so I'd invest in something ranged. Darts, a sling, or throwing knives. Otherwise, when in battle, you'll probably performing more utilitarian tasks than dealing damage, like holding a torch, watching the flank to make sure enemies don't sneak up on the party, etc.
If you have the stats for it, you can also specialize in a school of magic. This will let you cast 2 spells a day, but at the cost of losing access to some other schools entirely.
Eh, sort of. If you are playing a non-human, you can multi-class. This means you will start with two or even three classes, but your XP is divided between them. So if you are a Fighter/Mage, for instance, and you earn 100 XP on an adventure, then your Fighter side gets 50 XP and your Mage side gets the other 50 XP. This means leveling up is much slower than normal. Only Half-Elves can be Mage/Clerics, but that is a pretty good combo, as you get more spells per day that way, and slightly better combat abilities (still can't wear armor, but at least you have a wider selection of weapons and marginally better HP).
If you are human, you might be eligible to dual-class. But it requires some ridiculously high stats to pull off. But the way it works is you start with one class, and then eventually abandon it and start over again in a new class. But you cannot use your old class abilities until your new class out-levels the old one. For instance, let's say you start as a Fighter and reach level 3. Then you dual-class to mage. So you are Fighter 3/Mage 1. You cannot use any of your Fighter abilities until you level up Mage to 3, at which point you can then use both class abilities again. But you will only level up ever after as a Mage. Your Fighter level stays at 3 forever.
Depends on the magic. If arcane, you'll want an INT boost. If divine, then a WIS boost. If your character is Middle Aged, they get a +1 to INT and WIS, but a -1 to STR and CON. If they are Old Aged, they get +1 to WIS but a -1 to CON and -2 to STR and DEX. If they are Venerable Aged, they get another +1 to INT and WIS, but another -1 to STR, CON and DEX, and these are all cumulative.
If you're limited to core races, Humans and Half-Elves don't get any stat adjustments. Dwarves get +1 CON/-1 CHA, Elves get +1 DEX/-1 CON, Gnomes get +1 INT/-1 WIS, and Halflings get +1 DEX/-1 STR. But only humans, elves and half-elves can be mages. Any race can be a cleric, but if you go that route, avoid gnomes because they get a -1 to WIS.
Bards can be pretty great. They level up faster than mages do, meaning their spells tend to be more powerful. But they require DEX 12, INT 13 and CHA 15 and are limited to Humans and Half-Elves only. They don't actually get any spellcasting until 2nd level, either. They also can only be NG, NE, LN, CN or TN in alignment.
Keep in mind, this is all assuming your game is core only. If you have access to any splatbooks, homebrewed material, or Player's Option stuff, then that opens things up considerably.
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2022-06-18, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
this is very helpful. thank you.
so a half elf can be a cleric and a mage?
the party will be small, and like 3 plus the DM.
I suppose being a mage and a cleric half elf will work.
and if I'm going to go for the wizard, I'll go oldest for the wisdom and int boost.
sleep is a good suggestion. would tings be any different if I go cleric/mage vs mage/cleric?
I read barbarians can't read, but if you cross class to barbarian you don't lose your ability to read. or something like that.Vae Victus!
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2022-06-19, 03:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
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2022-06-19, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
Be careful with the age thing, some spells can age you as a result of casting them in 2e.
Some enemies age you as an attack form.
Haste, for example, ages the person it is cast upon by 1 year. Wish and limited wish age the caster by 10 years and 1 year respectively. A few of the more powerful priest spells also age the caster.the first half of the meaning of life is that there isn't one.
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2022-06-20, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
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2022-06-20, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
It's not a lot of spells, but make sure you read the spell descriptions thoroughly. Some of them have other catches or expensive treasure costs.
though one way around the aging 10 years for every cast of wish is to wish to slow your aging. This wish has an exact set of rules in the DMG. every time you cast it you age 1/10th your previous rate. as you cast the wish the first time, you age ten years. the second you age 1 year. the third you age 1/10th of a year and so on.the first half of the meaning of life is that there isn't one.
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2022-06-21, 05:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
Definitely go for a specialist wizard. Getting more spells per day is very powerful. In 2E, the best schools to specialize in are Alteration (the old name for Transmutation) and Evocation, because of the sheer number of spells in these schools.
Bear in mind that 2E is empathically not about getting three or four level-appropriate combats per day. The wizard isn't very good in combat at level 1, but then neither is anybody else (except with a really lucky strength score). This means that negotiation, stealth, and running away are more common options than in 3E and above.Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2022-06-21, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
"Sleeping late might not be a virtue, but it sure aint no vice. The old saw about the early bird and the worm just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
- L. Long
I think, therefore I get really, really annoyed at people who won't.
"A plucky band of renegade short-order cooks fighting the Empire with the power of cheap, delicious food and a side order of whup-ass."
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2022-06-21, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
Minor correction - gnomes can be mages, but only if they are specialist illusionists. They can also be the really awesome illusionist/thief multicast combo.
Last edited by Corvus; 2022-06-21 at 08:54 AM.
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2022-06-21, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
As someone running a 2E campaign, Mages/wizards are very powerful. They are actually hard to run as NPCs due to the spells and the way saves work and trying to avoid TPKing the party using tactics. Playing tabletop wargames and being someone who studies historical tactics gives a very different view on battles than a straight wargamer normally has. My party hated me when I hit them with orcs riding wargs and we did a Cantabrian circle on them.
So anyway, a mage at 1 is very weak. I would recommend to obviously put your highest stat roll into INT and if you get a 15+ or will get that with a racial bonus, put it in dex to get a slightly better armor save and missile bonus with your sling or bow(if an elf). Then if you have a 15+ left over then put it in Con for a bonus hp but anything higher than 16 is a waste since only martials get better than a +2 hp bonus.
Spells which are useful are sleep as mentioned and Magic Missile for finishing off wounded baddies so your fighters can go after more dangerous opponents. Armor, Mirror Image, and things like this are really useful for keeping you alive.
I prefer elven(any sub-race) mages simply because I like playing haughty better than the lesser races and jobs characters. But other races do well too, a gnomish mage has potential and a standard classic human mage fits in too. If I was to play a Drow mage I would be more inclined to go with a multiclass with thief and go for an assassin-like build and do spells accordingly. I had one in the early 2000s that was a blast trying to hide his identity so he wasnt killed on site in cities and had a lot of fun RPing him while he lasted(died at 4th level of mage). But alas I havent gotten to play a 2E game in years :(PCs are not exceptional. They are normal Joe Shmoes stuck in exceptional circumstances.
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2022-06-21, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
That's 1e, not 2e.
Now, 2e did eventually introduce a Barbarian class, and there were a couple of primitive-style mage kits in Complete Wizard, but that's it.
If you're looking for Real Ultimate Power as a wizard in 2e, there's a few things to look at.
1) Dual-class human. Fighter gives you some early HP and weapon options (including weapon specialization), but don't sleep on thief... pick up a couple levels of that, then switch to wizard. Since you need at least a 15 Dex to switch out of thief, and a 17 Int to switch into wizard, that opens up the Transmuter specialization, which gives you a lot of spells at a relatively low cost. Also really good is a Druid/Wizard, and the minimum Wisdom and Charisma for a multi-class druid open up a couple of specializations, as well.
2a) Multiclass demi-human. IMO, less good option, since you wind up a level or two behind everyone else. Thief has good synergy, and a gnome illusionist/thief has the possibility of a 19 intelligence and that sweet, sweet "learn all spells of a given level". Cleric/wizard gives a lot of spells, but loses out on some clerical armor options. Fighter/wizard is the worst, IMO, because you have all the durability of a wizard.
2) See what options are available. If you can use Spells and Magic, you can make a pretty good wizard, though the system is INSANELY good as a cleric. Some of the Complete Handbooks are also good for wizards... I was always partial to the Witch kit, with their starting magic items, but there's some other good options, including ones with relatively low costs.
3) While lots of folks crow about specialists, I find they become a lot less necessary if you're dual-classed, and have a couple other things you can do. Specialization closes off schools, and there's almost always a spell you miss because you're a specialist.
4) You probably get more spells than you think. I know my DM always skimped on the "you get a new spell when you get a new spell level", but that leads into the next point
5) Spellbooks are your favorite thing. You take them from every wizard you kill, and you hoard them. If you have Spells and magic available, the Bookbinder proficiency is great for rearranging books as you like.The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
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2022-06-21, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
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2022-06-21, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
One further caution for min/maxers playing Magic Users in 2e: by RAW, the way you learn new spells is that, in play, you come across spellbooks during game (maybe you seek out a library or guild, or maybe you come across a spellbook as part of the treasure in a dungeon or defeat an NPC with a spellbook) and then you roll percentile dice for whether or not you can learn that spell at all, with the chance depending on your INT. Even with an INT of 17, there's still a one in four chance that you won't be able to learn a given spell even after you find it! This means that building toward a really specific planned spell layout is risky since first you need to locate those spells in-game, and then it's likely that you'll fail the roll for at least one of the spells you'd originally planned to learn and have to pivot. (This is one of those rules that some DMs ignore, so it may be worth asking about.)
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2022-06-22, 12:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
True, but you can retry when you level up, and being a specialist gives you a sizeable bonus to your own school (and the Alteration and Evocation schools are huge; for instance, all teleportation effects are Alteration because "they alter your position").
Depends on which books are in play, really. With PHB-only or early-books-only, some schools (like Necromancy) are so sparsely populated that you're unlikely to notice. IIRC Abjuration has very little going for it except Dispel Magic, which you can outsource to the party cleric; and Divination is "free" in that you keep the L1 thru L3 spells even if you "ban" the school.
Basically, 3E started paying more attention to consistency of what the schools mean, and making sure each school has a decent number of spells in it.Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2022-06-22, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
If you're looking for rules for 2nd edition, purpleworm org is an excellent resource!
As others have mentioned, a gnome illusionist is amazing, as is the bard, and as of the bard handbook you can multiclass a professor bard with an illusionist for a fairly beefy boat of spells over time! In the early game, you can buff your allies with profess and enjoy a little extra health and hit chance, and you'll only be a couple levels behind single class party members for a while. The extra spells you get (on top of bard utility) will quickly make up for the detriment.
If you're looking for "kits" for just a wizard, many of the most interesting ones come from the Complete Sha'ir Handbook, where you can play things like a Mechanist (who makes robots that act as their spellbooks AND your minions at the cost of being very resource-hungry and slow to restock spells) or a Mystic of Nog (who trades spell-slots permanently to also permanently enhance stats or give combat abilities), but the two kings of meta for back in the day are the Nimbral Wizard from forgotten realms "Wizards and Rogues of the Realm" for the ability to get oodles of bonus spells/true sight/magic friendly armor, and the Planescapes "Planeswalker Wizard" who gets built-in spell penetration.
Best of luck with your game! It can be a bit brutal, but the rule diversity is really nice with the addition of certain campaign books!
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2022-06-23, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2022-06-23, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2022-06-23, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
I think that was because, mechanically, they didn't want spell resistance to interfere with getting healed
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2022-06-23, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2022-06-23, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
I guess I have another question.
When you multi class, do you split the stats between the classes?
I ask this because I read this online some where so I'm wondering if I should just pick 1 class and stick with it.
I wouldn't mind leveling 2 or more classes if it meant I got the best aspects of each class, but splitting the stats or whatever seems like it might not be worth the hassle.
so if you don't mind me asking, do you recommend dual classing or just focusing on 1 class? I understand having 2 classes would also have benefits, but if having more than 1 class means sacrificing efficiency I might just pick a cleric or a wizard.
now, if I could use both classes at their best then I'd be down for dual classing. but I'm not sure how to proceed then.Vae Victus!
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2022-06-23, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
Multiclassing, you get the best saves and the best attack of both classes, but mage armor and cleric weapon restrictions still must be followed as normal. Multiclass mages can't cast spells in armor, no matter what (unless you're an elf and your DM lets you find elven chainmail, which is not normally an item you can purchase). Multiclass clerics can only use weapons allowed by their religion. HP is the average of the two classes hit die rolls. Every time you level up one of the two classes (which will often be at slightly different times because the classes gain levels at different amount of XP), you roll your new hit die for that class and get half that many HP.
If you choose human and dual class, you can use the best features of both classes only after your second class has exceeded your your first class levels. So if you go up to level 2 in fighter, and then switch to mage, you gain no more HP and use mage melee attacks and saving throws until you reach mage level 3. Even after you reach that level, armor restrictions for mages and weapon restriction for cleric is still in place. The reason for dual classing would be that it's easier to survive the first couple levels as a fighter. Once you have 15 or 20 HP, you switch to level 1 mage and you get to keep all the HP while you start leveling- that helps a lot when you can't wear any armor and only have 1 or 2 spells you can cast in a day. But this also means that you need to wait a level or two before you get to play a mage, which in 2e can be quite a long time depending on how the DM does things. You also need to have very good ability scores to do it, so it likely won't be an option for you, regardless.
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2022-06-24, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
Another note on multi-classing: you divide the xp you earn by the number of classes you have. Your fighter/mage will have half the xp of the straight fighter and straight mage. But since each level takes roughly twice the xp of the previous level (until you hit 9th level), you generally end up about 1 level behind everyone else, which isn't too bad.
Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season
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2022-06-24, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2022-06-24, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
Personal opinion: Dual-classing is great if it happens some time in your character's past. Starting the game at level 4+ already dual-classed is great; starting the game at level 1 and slogging through the mechanics of dual-classing is no fun.
Multiclassed characters don't face that problem. They do have the issue of still being level 1 until their single-classed friends are hitting level 3, but they get enough goodies to compensate, and beyond level 1 the delayed progression doesn't feel like a big deal to me.
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2022-06-24, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
The multiclass combo you choose could also slow you down. A ranger/mage/cleric is about as expensive and slow as you get. But a gnome cleric/thief pretty much keeps up with a single class mage level wise.
Last edited by Corvus; 2022-06-24 at 06:42 PM.
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2022-06-24, 08:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
So from what I'm reading, if the DM allows it I could start a bit higher than 1st level?
I guess a small campaign starting higher wouldn't hurt, to get my self adjusted to the rules. good idea.
I've read about arch liches who are good aligned. could I be a lich and be good or is this only in later editions?Vae Victus!
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2022-06-24, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
2e had the view that they were more like guidelines than rules. Basically ask your DM and see what he says was the rule 0 of 2e.
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2022-06-25, 09:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: my friend has 2nd edition want help on power leveling
You're not the DM, but advice to them:
If you want to start higher than 1st level, give an XP total, not a level point.
A 10th level thief has 160,000 XP; a 10th level cleric has 450,000. If you give the cleric 160,000 XP, he's 8th level. If you give the thief 450,000, he's 12th. This also makes things like multi-classing and dual-classing easier to adjudicate. "You wanted to be a fighter until 7th level? That's 64,000 XP, so out of the 160k XP cap, you CAN make 8th level wizard."
For bonus evil: Make them buy magic items out of their XP budget.The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2022-06-25, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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