Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXX

[daremetoidareyo]

I have a question regarding the raven form. While comparing the animal forms with each other I noticed that it is straight inferior to the eagle form. The eagle has either the same stats or better. Not a single advantage to take the raven. Which is said imho (that one form won't be picked for the contest..^^).
So imho from a logical RAI point of view, we should argue that raven Berserk should retain their ability to speak. I mean we know that Ravens in real life and even Familiars in 3.5 can learn to speak. And the SI retains his INT score in the forms (the score important to learn and speak languages). Since even in 3.5 ravens seem to be able to produce (and learn) humanoid language sounds, the Raven Berserk should therefore also retain the ability to speak.

It's not that I wanna build a Raven Berserk (not set on a build so far/ dunno if I will enter / still waiting for the big inspiration here). But as said, it would be sad if the Raven wouldn't get any builds just because it totally inferior and has nothing to offer.

Raven is smaller.

[loky1109]

I think I have an idea...

[Gruftzwerg]

Raven is smaller.

I don't consider that as bonus ^^. They have the same AC, but the raven has still less dmg (due to size^^) has less speed and is overall worse imho. Raven Berserk need some love.

[H_H_F_F]

I don't consider that as bonus ^^. They have the same AC, but the raven has still less dmg (due to size^^) has less speed and is overall worse imho. Raven Berserk need some love.

Overall worse is very different from strictly worse. Raven has a potential asset that eagle does not.

[Malphegor]

I assumed the hybrid form changed your size in this but on a reread it doesn’t seem to say that. So you can be a man sized whaleperson when not full sized whale.

[Wildstag]

I assumed the hybrid form changed your size in this but on a reread it doesn’t seem to say that. So you can be a man sized whaleperson when not full sized whale.

You could even go Darfellan to be a whale-man-sized whale-person.

[loky1109]

You could even go Darfellan to be a whale-man-sized whale-person.

Were-orca? Who did say were-orca? Show yourself!

[ciopo]

I got ideas so stupid I'm looping back to hyped

[H_H_F_F]

I got ideas so stupid I'm looping back to hyped

I think I'm about to submit my worst-scoring build ever.

[Wildstag]

I got ideas so stupid I'm looping back to hyped

I think I'm about to submit my worst-scoring build ever.

You'll be in good company!

[ciopo]

As always, if anyone wants to do a collaboration, I'm all hands!

[Tohron]

I've got a quasi-joke build in mind. I'm not sure whether or not it's actually valid, but if not, it'll hopefully at least be entertaining.

[H_H_F_F]

My stupid build got less stupid, which is a shame.

I also have another idea for a build that is stupid in a very different way.

Wither way, this'll be a terrible round for me. I'm thrilled.

[WeaselGuy]

I'm cooking up something for the first time in... years. I was doing something silly, then as I was formatting it, I was like "well, I'm already taking this... if I could fit that in instead, it'd open up this other thing too, but then I wouldn't have room for those things, and then that prestige class is basically worthless, and ah crap, now it's a completely different build."

So you know, the usual.

[The Viscount]

I have a question regarding the raven form. While comparing the animal forms with each other I noticed that it is straight inferior to the eagle form. The eagle has either the same stats or better. Not a single advantage to take the raven. Which is said imho (that one form won't be picked for the contest..^^).
So imho from a logical RAI point of view, we should argue that raven Berserk should retain their ability to speak. I mean we know that Ravens in real life and even Familiars in 3.5 can learn to speak. And the SI retains his INT score in the forms (the score important to learn and speak languages). Since even in 3.5 ravens seem to be able to produce (and learn) humanoid language sounds, the Raven Berserk should therefore also retain the ability to speak.

It's not that I wanna build a Raven Berserk (not set on a build so far/ dunno if I will enter / still waiting for the big inspiration here). But as said, it would be sad if the Raven wouldn't get any builds just because it totally inferior and has nothing to offer.

If you'd like to make a persuasive argument in your build, I'm not going to stop you.

You're too nice for our own good!

How does that interact with other rage/frenzy effects? Like if we go barbarian/berserk, can we rage and battle fury, or are they mutually exclusive?

We'll follow the precedent set by frenzy and say you can rage and battle fury at the same time.

No Nat attacks, no speeds, no NAC, no SQ and SA?

That is correct. Your size does not change in hybrid form, either, to clarify an above question.

[ciopo]

Battle fury counts as rage for feats and effects that discuss rage. Don't say I never gave you anything.

followup on this : does greater rage also increase battle fury?
do classes that says "add this class level to barbarian level to determine rages per days" also work with berserk battle fury?

[yeetusmcgeetus]

Not a submission, but might I recommend Thrallherd for a future secret ingredient? That PrC is so ridiculously cheesable it's insane.

[H_H_F_F]

Thrallherd gives a leadership effect, which is banned. It's all about that effect, too.

Also, it's kind of the opposite of what we usually go for here: It's a very good, very focused, very obviously powerful PRC with no downfalls and is trivial to enter with a synergic entry.

[loky1109]

If we talk about possible next SI I want suggest Red Avenger.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'm honestly surprised there wasn't a Void Disciple round yet.

[H_H_F_F]

I'm honestly surprised there wasn't a Void Disciple round yet.

Nightmare fuel.

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm honestly surprised there wasn't a Void Disciple round yet.

I already have a totally game breaking Void Disciple build. Imho that is more than enough imho. :p


I would prefer a crafting focused SI. Imho that would make an interesting round.

[Zaq]

If we talk about possible next SI I want suggest Red Avenger.

You monster.

[daremetoidareyo]

As always, if anyone wants to do a collaboration, I'm all hands!

Expound on this. Are you in need of fluff composition or hijinx advice.

[The Viscount]

followup on this : does greater rage also increase battle fury?
do classes that says "add this class level to barbarian level to determine rages per days" also work with berserk battle fury?

Greater rage does not increase battle fury.
Things that give you more uses of rage per day based on barbarian levels do not give you more uses of battle fury per day.

[ciopo]

Things that give you more uses of rage per day do not give you more uses of battle fury per day.

Not even the feat extra rage? Is that an exception to the previous question of "it counts as rage for things that modify rage".

Or only class feature that says to "add to barbarian levels"?

I would split the difference between those features that says "you have X extra uses of rage per day" (increases battle fury uses) and those that says "add this class level to your barbarian level to determine rages per day". Seems to be the meaningful distinction to me

[Seward]

Hm, my ideas were both based on Change Shape, not Alternate Form (as in you retain your actual ability scores, blah blah).

And yes, it was a raven. I wanted an incredibly strong strength raven by level 20, but now that isn't going to happen. Then there was <scrubbed, probably a bit too late>.

Think I'll attend to real life this round. I got nothing with alternate form that can't be done better with a straight wildshape ranger/barbarian1/extra rage/nature warrior/master of many forms.

[Gruftzwerg]

Hm, my ideas were both based on Change Shape, not Alternate Form (as in you retain your actual ability scores, blah blah).

And yes, it was a raven. I wanted an incredibly strong strength raven by level 20, but now that isn't going to happen, especially as its size won't change to tiny. Then there was the air-breathing flying whale...which isn't very exciting if it is size medium.

Think I'll attend to real life this round. I got nothing with alternate form that can't be done better with a straight wildshape ranger/barbarian1/extra rage/nature warrior/master of many forms.

I guess you missed something there:

Your size changes to that of the animal.

But yeah, you are still struck with the STR 1 score of the raven.

[loky1109]

It sounds like speculations.

[The Viscount]

Not even the feat extra rage? Is that an exception to the previous question of "it counts as rage for things that modify rage".

Or only class feature that says to "add to barbarian levels"?

I would split the difference between those features that says "you have X extra uses of rage per day" (increases battle fury uses) and those that says "add this class level to your barbarian level to determine rages per day". Seems to be the meaningful distinction to me

You know what, you're right.

You cannot gain more uses of battle fury for things that say "add to your barbarian level to determine rages per day" but you may gain more uses through other means.