monk subclass = 1/3 cleric casting

[Dimers]

Since many people seem to agree that 1/3 cleric casting isn't too much or too little as a subclass feature for a monk, here's a quick-and-dirty writeup for a moncleric.

Monastic Tradition adds effects at levels 3, 6, 11 and 17. Level 3 for this tradition is mostly about beginner spellcasting but also adds two proficiencies or Expertises. Getting shillelagh for free helps make you more Wisdom-focused in the early levels. Level 6 integrates spellcasting with ki expenditure and attacks. Level 11 lets you spend spell slots for better unarmed attacks, now shifting away from shillelagh use.

And level 17 is ... complicated. It makes you otherworldly in a few ways. I worry that people will object to the Wisdom boost; it's a (mild) improvement to a lot of things: unarmored AC, Wisdom saves, weapon attacks (with shillelagh, which limits you to a lower damage die than Martial Arts does), spell attacks, spell save DC, stun DC and a few skills. Oh, and amount healed with spells. I don't think there are any feats that use Wisdom ... ? The feature doesn't make a monk SAD -- they definitely still need Dexterity and Constitution. Anyway, the Wisdom boost on top of the other benefits is out of line with the power of existing monk subclasses, but it seems fitting for someone who's near the apex of their adventuring career, and the so-called "capstone" of the base class is junk.



Monastic Tradition: Way of the Thaumaturge (I'm not really sold on the name)

SPELLCASTING
When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you augment your quest for personal perfection with the ability to cast spells.
Cantrips. You learn shillelagh and one cantrip of your choice from the cleric or druid spell list. You learn additional cleric or druid cantrips of your choice at levels 6, 11 and 17. These are monk spells for you.
Spell Slots. The Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table (PHB page 75) shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher. Choose one cleric domain or paladin oath. You learn the 1st-level spells from the domain spell list or oath spell list. You learn the 2nd-level spells from that list when you reach 7th level as a monk. You learn the 3rd-level spells when you reach 13th level, and you learn the 4th-level spells when you reach 19th level. In addition, you know two 1st-level cleric spells of your choice. You learn an additional cleric spell of your choice at each odd-numbered monk level and at 20th level. The spell you choose must be of a level for which you have spell slots. All spells learned through this feature are monk spells for you, and they are always prepared.
Spellcasting Ability. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your monk spells. You use your Wisdom modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a monk spell you cast or making an attack roll with one.

RITUAL CASTING
You can cast a monk spell you know as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag.

SPELLCASTING FOCUS
You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus for your monk spells.

THAUMATURGIC ALIGNMENT
You are treated as both a cleric and a monk for the use of magic items.

MONASTIC EXPERTISE
When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in Religion. If you were already proficient, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check that uses Religion. In addition, choose one tool appropriate to your monastery. You gain proficiency in that tool, or if you were already proficient, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check using that tool.

KI SPELLSPRING
Starting at 6th level, you learn to use your spell energy to empower your fighting style. After you cast a monk cantrip as an action, during the same turn, you may make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. After you cast a leveled monk spell as an action, during the same turn, you may use Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense or Step of the Wind as a bonus action without spending ki.
In addition, you may spend a leveled spell slot as an action, reaction, or bonus action to gain ki points equal to the level of the spell slot expended. Any ki in excess of your normal maximum disappears when you complete a short rest.

SACRED FIST
Starting at 11th level, as an action you may spend a spell slot to empower your unarmed strikes. For the next hour, your unarmed strikes gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to the level of the spell slot expended. This effect requires your concentration, and if you lose concentration on it, the effect ends early. Activating this effect counts as casting a leveled monk spell for purposes of Ki Spellspring, but it can't be counterspelled or dispelled.

TRANSCENDENT FOCUS
When you reach 17th level, you gain an understanding of the mystic universe nearly unheard of among mortal beings. Your Wisdom score increases by 2, and your maximum for Wisdom increases by 2.
Choose one of the following: You can see in dim light as if it were bright light, or you can generate a mystic glow. If you choose the latter, treat it in all ways as casting daylight as a monk spell on yourself, except that you spend no spell slot, you don't need daylight as a spell known, and the light persists indefinitely until you end it as an action or until dispelled.
Many creatures can sense your transcendent nature and will treat you with awe. Beasts have disadvantage on attack rolls to hit you. Choose one of the following: celestial, fey, or fiend. You have advantage on Charisma (Persuasion) checks against creatures of the chosen type, and advantage on Charisma (Intimidation) checks against creatures of the other two types. Finally, you learn find familiar as an additional monk spell, though you can only use it to gain the service of a creature of the type you chose for your Persuasion checks.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Like it. But I wouldn't make the 11th level feature use concentration. It's not going to be overpowered as +1 or +2 damage per strike isn't game breaking at this level. A 2nd level/+2 damage per strike is only +8 damage per round with Flurry, which is less than Paladin's +9 average damage with Improved Divine Smite (which is also non-concentration, and doesn't require burning a spell slot). Even a 3rd level/+3 DPS is going to be just +9 at most on any round without Flurry.

[Yakk]

1. I don't like converting spell slots to Ki. Could easily turn this into a "spells suck, just more stunning blows", or it could be a trap option.

I'd rather they stay separate resource pools honestly.

2. The Cantrip thing is a trap; if you are doing an attack cantrip, allow them to spend ki on flurry of blows.

Steal a page from the Bladesinger! Let you replace an attack with a standard action cantrip when you do the attack action. ;)

I might also include "you do not suffer disadvantage on ranged spell attacks if you have attacked all hostile creatures adjacent to you".

This lets you shoot radiant beams by punching. Which I think is a key feature.

3. Again, I don't like "consume spell slots to make you monk better". Synergy, not replacement.

"When you cast a monk spell, you gain a bonus to your unarmed attack and damage rolls equal to the spell slot level. This bonus lasts until you cast another leveled monk spell, or the end of your next turn."

That is an example of synergy, instead of replacement. You cast a 3rd level monk spell? Get +3 unarmed to-hit and damage for your flurry and your next turn's attacks. You are doing both, instead of sacrificing spellcasting to punch better.

4. Transcencent focus. The non-daylight option doesn't make nearly as much sense.

[Abuzorg]

If you aren't sold on the Way of the Thaumaturge name, just call it the Way of the Sacred Fist. A monk with 1/3 casting feels like that 3.5 prestige class.

S
KI SPELLSPRING
Starting at 6th level, you learn to use your spell energy to empower your fighting style. After you cast a monk cantrip as an action, during the same turn, you may make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. After you cast a leveled monk spell as an action, during the same turn, you may use Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense or Step of the Wind as a bonus action without spending ki.
In addition, you may spend a leveled spell slot as an action, reaction, or bonus action to gain ki points equal to the level of the spell slot expended. Any ki in excess of your normal maximum disappears when you complete a short rest.

I would move this feature to level 3 and introduce a feature like the Bladesinger's extra attack at level 6 just like Yakk said. I wouldn't worry about this being too strong at that level because I am of the (controversial on this board, I know) opinion that monks are one of the weakest class, if not the weakest.

[Dimers]

Does anybody find the Wisdom boost problematic? Or the plundering of domain/oath spell lists?

Like it. But I wouldn't make the 11th level feature use concentration. It's not going to be overpowered as +1 or +2 damage per strike isn't game breaking at this level. A 2nd level/+2 damage per strike is only +8 damage per round with Flurry, which is less than Paladin's +9 average damage with Improved Divine Smite (which is also non-concentration, and doesn't require burning a spell slot). Even a 3rd level/+3 DPS is going to be just +9 at most on any round without Flurry.

I was taking my cue from magic weapon and elemental weapon, both of which are Concentration. OTOH I never see those called out as strong spells for their level despite 5e offering few static bonuses, and maybe Concentration is the reason for that. You don't feel that the accuracy boost would be too much without Concentration? It'd help even things up with characters who get to use enchanted weapons, but not all games use magic items.

1. I don't like converting spell slots to Ki. Could easily turn this into a "spells suck, just more stunning blows", or it could be a trap option.

I'd rather they stay separate resource pools honestly.

2. The Cantrip thing is a trap; if you are doing an attack cantrip, allow them to spend ki on flurry of blows.

Steal a page from the Bladesinger! Let you replace an attack with a standard action cantrip when you do the attack action. ;)

I might also include "you do not suffer disadvantage on ranged spell attacks if you have attacked all hostile creatures adjacent to you".

This lets you shoot radiant beams by punching. Which I think is a key feature.

3. Again, I don't like "consume spell slots to make you monk better". Synergy, not replacement.

"When you cast a monk spell, you gain a bonus to your unarmed attack and damage rolls equal to the spell slot level. This bonus lasts until you cast another leveled monk spell, or the end of your next turn."

That is an example of synergy, instead of replacement. You cast a 3rd level monk spell? Get +3 unarmed to-hit and damage for your flurry and your next turn's attacks. You are doing both, instead of sacrificing spellcasting to punch better.

4. Transcencent focus. The non-daylight option doesn't make nearly as much sense.

1) Can you say more about why you dislike it? Mechanics, narrative, just doesn't add much to the game ... ?

2) I probably would've already stolen from neo-Bladesinger if I had the text in front of me, yeah. I only own SCAG and the PHB. Would it synch up okay with the neo-Bladesinger if we replace the second sentence with "When you take the Attack action, you may replace one attack with a monk cantrip", or is additional qualifying text needed? ((EDIT: a monk cantrip with a casting time of 1 action)) I like the no-ranged-disadvantage thing as well; it was in the back of my mind but I didn't want to go too far in my initial proposal.

3) I can't argue that that's synergy instead of replacement, but it seems like a really weak synergy given how little time it lasts and how few spell slots 1/3 casting gives. It'd affect a maximum of six attacks per cast: flurry this turn, attack and flurry next turn. Hmmm ... "If you cast a leveled monk spell and it has a duration of 'Instantaneous' or '1 round', until the end of your next turn you gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls with your unarmed strikes. The bonus is equal to the level of the spell slot used. If the monk spell has a different duration, you gain the bonus until that spell expires or you cast another leveled monk spell, whichever comes first."

To go back to my initial version, though, that has two advantages: it doesn't skew the monk's spell selection heavily toward combat effects (allowing them to focus on utility and theme if desired), and it can be pre-cast. Thoughts?

4) "Transcendent" doesn't mean "good", of course. I wanted a dark option alongside the glowy one. I was considering adding darkvision to it but (A) I figured a darkness-oriented 17th level character would already have darkvision and (B) this was another area where I was worried about offering too much initially.

I would move this feature to level 3 and introduce a feature like the Bladesinger's extra attack at level 6 just like Yakk said. I wouldn't worry about this being too strong at that level because I am of the (controversial on this board, I know) opinion that monks are one of the weakest class, if not the weakest.

Agreed about the weakness. They have neat features, they're just so friggin' MAD ... and the lack of support for unarmored non-spellcasting non-weapon-using characters in core is abominable. Still, I don't want to overload 3rd level, the different aspects of spellcasting feel like one package together, and I don't want to delay the proficiencies until well after someone leaves their monastery, so I'm not sure what compromise could be made. It's something to ponder.

[MrStabby]

Monastic Tradition: Way of the Thaumaturge (I'm not really sold on the name)

No really a fan of the name either. It does read like a remake of the old sacred fist prestige class so could steal that.

SPELLCASTING
When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you augment your quest for personal perfection with the ability to cast spells.
Cantrips. You learn shillelagh and one cantrip of your choice from the cleric or druid spell list. You learn additional cleric or druid cantrips of your choice at levels 6, 11 and 17. These are monk spells for you.
Spell Slots. The Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table (PHB page 75) shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher. Choose one cleric domain or paladin oath. You learn the 1st-level spells from the domain spell list or oath spell list. You learn the 2nd-level spells from that list when you reach 7th level as a monk. You learn the 3rd-level spells when you reach 13th level, and you learn the 4th-level spells when you reach 19th level. In addition, you know two 1st-level cleric spells of your choice. You learn an additional cleric spell of your choice at each odd-numbered monk level and at 20th level. The spell you choose must be of a level for which you have spell slots. All spells learned through this feature are monk spells for you, and they are always prepared.
Spellcasting Ability. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your monk spells. You use your Wisdom modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a monk spell you cast or making an attack roll with one.

I am split on this but generally coming down in favour. For casting, the two obvious ways were to use spell slots (like eldritch knight or like arcane trickster) or to use Ki (like 4 elements or shadow monk). Use of Ki is a lot harder to balance as it is more resources that can be pushed to spells - by seperating these out into two resources you also ensure that there is an incentive to use the class ablities. I might be tempted to copy the EK/AT restrictions - spells come from the domain list with occasional spells from the main cleric list. As it is, getting all of these automatically feels like a big pool of spells. This is quite a power boost over a narrower selection.

RITUAL CASTING
You can cast a monk spell you know as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag.

I would like it as a player, but I do think this is something you could strip out. Removing some of these things would help stop the class from stepping on the toes of the party cleric and could be replaced with an ability less likely to overlap with those of other players.

SPELLCASTING FOCUS
You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus for your monk spells.

Honestly, I feel your body should be a focus - not that it really makes such a mechanical difference as you are less likely to have your hands full and can still make unarmed strikes with a headbutt or a kick.

THAUMATURGIC ALIGNMENT
You are treated as both a cleric and a monk for the use of magic items.

I agree with the theme, but might also skip this. It feels like a DM could easily fix this anyway and it feels like you are tying the DM's hands a bit.

MONASTIC EXPERTISE
When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in Religion. If you were already proficient, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check that uses Religion. In addition, choose one tool appropriate to your monastery. You gain proficiency in that tool, or if you were already proficient, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check using that tool.

Like the ritual casting, I think this is nice, bbut it also feels like you are somewhat taking what the cleric should have. I would be tempted to swap it with getting another sill of your choice if you already have proficiency in religion.

KI SPELLSPRING
Starting at 6th level, you learn to use your spell energy to empower your fighting style. After you cast a monk cantrip as an action, during the same turn, you may make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. After you cast a leveled monk spell as an action, during the same turn, you may use Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense or Step of the Wind as a bonus action without spending ki.
In addition, you may spend a leveled spell slot as an action, reaction, or bonus action to gain ki points equal to the level of the spell slot expended. Any ki in excess of your normal maximum disappears when you complete a short rest.

I don't really like this... at all. Recovery of KI from spell slots just means you can have a pool of resource to do more monk stuff and there is a chance you actually don't see the class features so much. And just think what happens if you do something like dip some levels of warlock - three levels of warlock would get you double the attion to your Ki pool than the same number of levels of monk.

In your original post in the 5e forum I suggested using the latest bladesinger extra attack feature that can combine cantrips as part of the attack. I still think this might be a good way to go - it really promotes the divine side and I think would be a big (and well justified) boost in power. As it is, what you have overlaps with the ACFs in Tasha's guide (which is both a good or a bad thing depending on how you see it).

SACRED FIST
Starting at 11th level, as an action you may spend a spell slot to empower your unarmed strikes. For the next hour, your unarmed strikes gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to the level of the spell slot expended. This effect requires your concentration, and if you lose concentration on it, the effect ends early. Activating this effect counts as casting a leveled monk spell for purposes of Ki Spellspring, but it can't be counterspelled or dispelled.

This is... fine. Its good, but it kind of feels a bit bland if I am honest. It feels like the kensei; you have a really flavourful class but to an outside observer it would kind of just look like they had rolled higher stats or whatever. Not doing anything unique. Still, nce to have something that overcomes the lack of magic for unarmed strikes.

TRANSCENDENT FOCUS
When you reach 17th level, you gain an understanding of the mystic universe nearly unheard of among mortal beings. Your Wisdom score increases by 2, and your maximum for Wisdom increases by 2.
Choose one of the following: You can see in dim light as if it were bright light, or you can generate a mystic glow. If you choose the latter, treat it in all ways as casting daylight as a monk spell on yourself, except that you spend no spell slot, you don't need daylight as a spell known, and the light persists indefinitely until you end it as an action or until dispelled.
Many creatures can sense your transcendent nature and will treat you with awe. Beasts have disadvantage on attack rolls to hit you. Choose one of the following: celestial, fey, or fiend. You have advantage on Charisma (Persuasion) checks against creatures of the chosen type, and advantage on Charisma (Intimidation) checks against creatures of the other two types. Finally, you learn find familiar as an additional monk spell, though you can only use it to gain the service of a creature of the type you chose for your Persuasion checks.

I have stared at this for a minute and I am coming round to it I think... The stat boost is the big cool thing, and honestly I am happy with the idea that a cleric/monk have the best wisdom score in the game. That doesn't feel wrong. Also, at a high level on a class that only has low level spells the risk of massive DC is reduced. Glowing light - sure, why not. Not sure why beasts have disadvantage to hit you of why you get a familliar - is it just because it can be celestial fey of fiend? I would be tempted to drop some of this - its a little cluttered and its a bit hard to keep track of everyhing (well, not that hard, but its small benefit for a medium amount of book keeping. I might be tempted to just make it a +2 wisdom, +2 Charisma buff. It isn't likely that you are going to be the party face as a monk anyway and unless you are doing something like starting at level 18 and dipping hexblade I don't see a big boost to value from this.

One odd thing is that it reads like you can just dispell the class ability and never get it back (the daylight bit). I comes on when you level up and lasts till dispelled.

[Yakk]

1) Can you say more about why you dislike it? Mechanics, narrative, just doesn't add much to the game ... ?

2) I probably would've already stolen from neo-Bladesinger if I had the text in front of me, yeah. I only own SCAG and the PHB. Would it synch up okay with the neo-Bladesinger if we replace the second sentence with "When you take the Attack action, you may replace one attack with a monk cantrip", or is additional qualifying text needed? ((EDIT: a monk cantrip with a casting time of 1 action)) I like the no-ranged-disadvantage thing as well; it was in the back of my mind but I didn't want to go too far in my initial proposal.

Holy fists: Starting at level 6, when you take the attack action, you can replace 1 attack with casting a cantrip as a standard action. In addition, when you make a ranged spell attack you can instead make a melee spell attack.

3) I can't argue that that's synergy instead of replacement, but it seems like a really weak synergy given how little time it lasts and how few spell slots 1/3 casting gives. It'd affect a maximum of six attacks per cast: flurry this turn, attack and flurry next turn. Hmmm ... "If you cast a leveled monk spell and it has a duration of 'Instantaneous' or '1 round', until the end of your next turn you gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls with your unarmed strikes. The bonus is equal to the level of the spell slot used. If the monk spell has a different duration, you gain the bonus until that spell expires or you cast another leveled monk spell, whichever comes first."

How about "when you cast a monk spell of level 1 or higher as an action, until the end of your next turn you gain a bonus to your attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes equal to your wisdom bonus". Or proficiency bonus.

This replaces the "slot level" bonus amount. And makes casting a monk spell in combat less crippling, as you get your flurry this round, and significant bonuses next round from it.

To go back to my initial version, though, that has two advantages: it doesn't skew the monk's spell selection heavily toward combat effects (allowing them to focus on utility and theme if desired), and it can be pre-cast. Thoughts?

4) "Transcendent" doesn't mean "good", of course. I wanted a dark option alongside the glowy one. I was considering adding darkvision to it but (A) I figured a darkness-oriented 17th level character would already have darkvision and (B) this was another area where I was worried about offering too much initially.

Yes, but in one case you are glowing like the sun, and in the other ... you see a bit better?

If you want a generic monk like that, I'd rethink the feature.