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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    So I recently binge-watched this show. I never saw the original She-Ra, and I don't plan to, but this show was quite good. I really enjoyed the characters. The only irredeemably evil, completely unsympathetic character in the show was Horde Prime; all the rest felt real and understandable, even Hordak (though his actions were still inexcusable). I genuinely felt sorry for multiple characters throughout the show, and they were complex enough that I felt invested in them.

    I'm not part of the LGBT+ community, but I could definitely appreciate how LGBT+ friendly the show was. It did a good job of making it feel normal without feeling either that it was trying to preach at the -phobes or just shoehorn it in. (Great examples: Bow's dads and the two princesses that were married.) That said, I did feel like

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    Adora and Catra being romantically involved at the end was completely unnecessary. Love doesn't have to be romantic, and until the last season, there weren't really any obvious indications that either of them was in love with the other, just that they loved one another. Besides, having Catra together with Adora leaves poor Scorpia out in the cold, and there were plenty of indications that Scorpia had feelings for Catra.


    Entrapta was probably my favorite character in the show; we need more positive portrayals of neurodivergent people that aren't caricatures.

    All in all, I think this is a great show, and I recommend it. What about you all?

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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    I'd argue that there's one other character who is definitely irredeemable

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    Shadow Weaver. There is no way to trust any redemption from her, and I think that's the intent. She's an abuser.


    But otherwise agree with your assessment. Though, I'm personally fine with the thing you said you had issue with.

    My main big thing.

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    They make it sound like Angela is just getting sealed away, which has implications she can be brought back, but this is never followed up on. I didn't get the impression her heroic sacrifice actually ibvolved her functionally dying due to the way they presented it.

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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiery Diamond View Post
    So I recently binge-watched this show. I never saw the original She-Ra, and I don't plan to, but this show was quite good. I really enjoyed the characters. The only irredeemably evil, completely unsympathetic character in the show was Horde Prime; all the rest felt real and understandable, even Hordak (though his actions were still inexcusable). I genuinely felt sorry for multiple characters throughout the show, and they were complex enough that I felt invested in them.

    I'm not part of the LGBT+ community, but I could definitely appreciate how LGBT+ friendly the show was. It did a good job of making it feel normal without feeling either that it was trying to preach at the -phobes or just shoehorn it in. (Great examples: Bow's dads and the two princesses that were married.) That said, I did feel like

    Spoiler: Specific character relationship
    Show
    Adora and Catra being romantically involved at the end was completely unnecessary. Love doesn't have to be romantic, and until the last season, there weren't really any obvious indications that either of them was in love with the other, just that they loved one another. Besides, having Catra together with Adora leaves poor Scorpia out in the cold, and there were plenty of indications that Scorpia had feelings for Catra.


    Entrapta was probably my favorite character in the show; we need more positive portrayals of neurodivergent people that aren't caricatures.

    All in all, I think this is a great show, and I recommend it. What about you all?
    While I do agree with the "they could just be friends" sentiment, the series was basically made from go for it to be end game. It was always supposed to be a case of two friends who wanted to be more, but couldn't due to life being A Lot. And as for Scorpia... they don't go too indepth in it, but it's clear by the end she and Perfuma are getting pretty close. That's definitely a thing, so don't worry, she'll get her due as well.

    I know some people disagree with the "positive portrayal" part of Entrapta but I 100% agree, she is fantastic and great and I love her.

    She-ra's kinda set the standard for shows of its type, in basically every way, and I'm glad to announce there are shows rising to meet or exceed it already. It's a good time to be an enjoyer of cartoons with a queer lens over it.

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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    So this might just be because I knew the ending before I started watching, but when I tried to watch She-Ra it was pretty transparent to me that Catra wanted Adora. To have, to hold, and so on for all eternity.

    Catra was pretty clear that she gave no ****s about good or evil, that she saw through the brainwashing and propaganda the whole time, but that she did not care because doing what the Horde wanted meant that she and Adora could be together and get theirs.

    I very much got the perception that her continuing to work with the Horde afterward was more or less entirely because she was an impulsive teenager acting spiteful because the person she's in love with turned her back on the plan.
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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    So this might just be because I knew the ending before I started watching, but when I tried to watch She-Ra it was pretty transparent to me that Catra wanted Adora. To have, to hold, and so on for all eternity.

    Catra was pretty clear that she gave no ****s about good or evil, that she saw through the brainwashing and propaganda the whole time, but that she did not care because doing what the Horde wanted meant that she and Adora could be together and get theirs.

    I very much got the perception that her continuing to work with the Horde afterward was more or less entirely because she was an impulsive teenager acting spiteful because the person she's in love with turned her back on the plan.
    Catra is given two options; talk about her feelings, or pull a switch that she knows will absolutely risk killing everyone and herself.

    And needs to think about it.

    Girl just had baggage. As you said, impulsive teenage spite and self hate.

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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiery Diamond View Post
    So I recently binge-watched this show. I never saw the original She-Ra, and I don't plan to, but this show was quite good. I really enjoyed the characters. The only irredeemably evil, completely unsympathetic character in the show was Horde Prime; all the rest felt real and understandable, even Hordak (though his actions were still inexcusable). I genuinely felt sorry for multiple characters throughout the show, and they were complex enough that I felt invested in them.

    I'm not part of the LGBT+ community, but I could definitely appreciate how LGBT+ friendly the show was. It did a good job of making it feel normal without feeling either that it was trying to preach at the -phobes or just shoehorn it in. (Great examples: Bow's dads and the two princesses that were married.) That said, I did feel like

    Spoiler: Specific character relationship
    Show
    Adora and Catra being romantically involved at the end was completely unnecessary. Love doesn't have to be romantic, and until the last season, there weren't really any obvious indications that either of them was in love with the other, just that they loved one another. Besides, having Catra together with Adora leaves poor Scorpia out in the cold, and there were plenty of indications that Scorpia had feelings for Catra.




    Entrapta was probably my favorite character in the show; we need more positive portrayals of neurodivergent people that aren't caricatures.

    All in all, I think this is a great show, and I recommend it. What about you all?
    I absolutely loved this show, and have pretty much binged a bunch of fanfiction of it as well, and have even started writing some of my own. And in general what I loved about the show is that even though romance and relationships was a massive part of the show it never felt like the show was bogged down by those relationships. The main plot of the war and the mystery of She-Ra was always central, and it never felt like the main plot stopped to serve the relationships, but rather that the relationships were shaped by the plot, if that makes sense.

    Also I really appreciated that they had a 'coming out of the closet' episode where Bow was confessing that he was a solider to his gay dads.

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    I'd disagree with that. It is pretty clear right from Season 1 that Catra wants Adora, and literally her whole motivation for fighting, is because she feels rejected by Adora joining the rebellion. And she goes into her whole spiral of trying to prove she doesn't need Adora, causing her to do more and more vile things in order to seek validation from bad people (The Horde) and chase after some ill-defined vision of 'winning'.

    While Adora is hyperfocused on her own handups and martyr complex, she also is pretty much not hostile to Catra until the portal episode. Despite the many times Catra tries to maim or kill her. Her being in love with Catra was very much a 'yeah, this makes sense' moment.

    You are right that Scorpia was pretty clearly interested in Catra, but it clearly wasn't reciprocated. Catra didn't love Scorpia, and would often ignore whatever nice thing she was doing in order to focus on Adora.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    I'd argue that there's one other character who is definitely irredeemable

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    Shadow Weaver. There is no way to trust any redemption from her, and I think that's the intent. She's an abuser.


    But otherwise agree with your assessment. Though, I'm personally fine with the thing you said you had issue with.

    My main big thing.

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    They make it sound like Angela is just getting sealed away, which has implications she can be brought back, but this is never followed up on. I didn't get the impression her heroic sacrifice actually ibvolved her functionally dying due to the way they presented it.
    Spoiler: Irredeemable characters
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    Agreed. Even her redemptive moment felt a little false. She was arguably the biggest obstacle to the heroes success for literally the entire show, right up to the final episode.


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    I personally took it to mean she was lost in the void between dimensions (the same one that gave us Corrupted Catra) and that it wasn't a survivable experience to be in there. Even if the act itself didn't kill her, the length of time would.
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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiery Diamond View Post
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    Adora and Catra being romantically involved at the end was completely unnecessary. Love doesn't have to be romantic, and until the last season, there weren't really any obvious indications that either of them was in love with the other, just that they loved one another. Besides, having Catra together with Adora leaves poor Scorpia out in the cold, and there were plenty of indications that Scorpia had feelings for Catra.
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    Scorpia deserves better than Catra anyway, who was a jerk all along. (That's kinda my issue with her having a "redemption" arc. There's no time where she wasn't a jerk, and she progresses to being an evil jerk, and that takes more than one type of growth that I didn't really see.)

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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Kids and I just finished it! It was my second trip through, and it remains fantastic.
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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    personally I like the show and that the whole discussion about
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    Catra is ignoring that its kind an idealistic show for kids and a fantasy. I wouldn't hold it to standards of complete realistic morality and that its okay for Catra to be saved and to end up as Adora's girlfriend, because its okay to have a perfect happy ending if that is what the writer wants to aim for. they executed it well enough to earn that happy ending for me personally, and if you argue of what should change well....well I personally wouldn't change the outcome, just the road to get there because I like the outcome personally, so if there was anything I'd change is make Catra's arc towards being saved/redeemed whatever a little more plausible and well thought out for the people who care, but I think the way its currently done is fine even if its abrupt and sudden, some things just happen easier than you think they do, especially in circumstances like in season 5 where Catra gets a significant change in perspective about all this.

    like before she could probably justify to herself "I'm going to rule and everyone will just learn to accept and be happy with me in charge as an awesome badass warrior queen" or something like that, but when the green guy came along she probably realized "oh no, everyone is probably going to be turned into THIS jerk and I'll be all alone until I am one to."
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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Spoiler: Detail about Horde Prime I like
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    That isn't even Horde Prime. Horde Prime is dead. That's a copy of a copy of a copy...

    You get the picture. It's a fragment of an entity that once existed, and it's a very malevolent fragment at that.

    Vaguely related 'Wrong Hordak' was a hit with my girlfriend and I.

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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    Scorpia deserves better than Catra anyway, who was a jerk all along. (That's kinda my issue with her having a "redemption" arc. There's no time where she wasn't a jerk, and she progresses to being an evil jerk, and that takes more than one type of growth that I didn't really see.)
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    Eh, I have no real issue with a redemption arc. The whole point of redemption is that people don't really deserve getting it. I kinda think it's never too late to try and be better and attempt to fix what wrongs you've committed.

    That said, I also kinda hate Catra and Adora ending up together. I've personally seen far too many relationships involving one side being as aggressively and personally toxic as Catra was in the middle seasons. Like this isn't just rivals, or, people on different sides of a war. Catra's downright emotionally abusive. So, it sort of rubs me the wrong way when that gets a fairytale ending stamp of approval of "this is a healthy relationship" because I've seen when people try to make a relationship out of that, and it has not been good.

    You can take the path of redemption. But that doesn't mean you're now worthy of the girl you've spent years tormenting.

    But that's my own desired messages getting in the way there. I do want to see more of people realizing they can be better and create some distance from those whose lives they messed up. Taken as a whole though, it's a good show. I've seen much, much worse relationships romanticized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
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    Eh, I have no real issue with a redemption arc. The whole point of redemption is that people don't really deserve getting it. I kinda think it's never too late to try and be better and attempt to fix what wrongs you've committed.

    That said, I also kinda hate Catra and Adora ending up together. I've personally seen far too many relationships involving one side being as aggressively and personally toxic as Catra was in the middle seasons. Like this isn't just rivals, or, people on different sides of a war. Catra's downright emotionally abusive. So, it sort of rubs me the wrong way when that gets a fairytale ending stamp of approval of "this is a healthy relationship" because I've seen when people try to make a relationship out of that, and it has not been good.

    You can take the path of redemption. But that doesn't mean you're now worthy of the girl you've spent years tormenting.

    But that's my own desired messages getting in the way there. I do want to see more of people realizing they can be better and create some distance from those whose lives they messed up. Taken as a whole though, it's a good show. I've seen much, much worse relationships romanticized.
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    Not just in the middle seasons. Right at the start Catra was jealous that Adora was Shadow Weaver's favourite and her response to that was to try and drag Adora down to make herself look good. Which, y'know, is probably the expected behaviour for Team Evil but there's no indication that she was only doing it because that was the expected social norm. She was doing it because she was a jerk and that's how she rolled.

    Her arc is basically Jerk > Evil Jerk > Accepted (to the point that Glimmer is a bit jealous of her) and she does that last step over what, 2/3 of a season?

    The arc needed to reflect how she actually was from the start more, even if it meant ending the show with her having a long way to go.

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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
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    Eh, I have no real issue with a redemption arc. The whole point of redemption is that people don't really deserve getting it. I kinda think it's never too late to try and be better and attempt to fix what wrongs you've committed.

    That said, I also kinda hate Catra and Adora ending up together. I've personally seen far too many relationships involving one side being as aggressively and personally toxic as Catra was in the middle seasons. Like this isn't just rivals, or, people on different sides of a war. Catra's downright emotionally abusive. So, it sort of rubs me the wrong way when that gets a fairytale ending stamp of approval of "this is a healthy relationship" because I've seen when people try to make a relationship out of that, and it has not been good.

    You can take the path of redemption. But that doesn't mean you're now worthy of the girl you've spent years tormenting.

    But that's my own desired messages getting in the way there. I do want to see more of people realizing they can be better and create some distance from those whose lives they messed up. Taken as a whole though, it's a good show. I've seen much, much worse relationships romanticized.
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    As if Adora would be content to leave Catra alone. Like Adora is pretty clearly in love with Catra as well and pretty much always had been.

    Also I hear that a lot, that Catra was emotionally abusive or somehow went too far in their attacks on Adora. Which I've always found weird because Catra is actively trying to murder all of Adora's friends and maim if not kill Adora. She's vile to Scorpia and Entrapta, but I can't see any behavior she aims at Adora that isn't appropriate for people on literal opposite sides of a war.



    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    Not just in the middle seasons. Right at the start Catra was jealous that Adora was Shadow Weaver's favourite and her response to that was to try and drag Adora down to make herself look good. Which, y'know, is probably the expected behaviour for Team Evil but there's no indication that she was only doing it because that was the expected social norm. She was doing it because she was a jerk and that's how she rolled.

    Her arc is basically Jerk > Evil Jerk > Accepted (to the point that Glimmer is a bit jealous of her) and she does that last step over what, 2/3 of a season?

    The arc needed to reflect how she actually was from the start more, even if it meant ending the show with her having a long way to go.
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    First off, when was Glimmer ever jealous of Catra? Secondly, I wouldn't call her accepted in Season 5, considering pretty much everyone outside the main characters actively dislikes her. Except for Glimmer, Bow, and Adora. Adora who is in love with her, Bow who is a total cinnamon roll and easily the most forgiving character in the show, and Glimmer who had screwed up so royally that she'd be hard pressed to claim that she was much better than Catra at that point.

    Regardless that wasn't what I wanted to talk about. I wanted to talk about how Catra and Adora's behavior makes complete sense due to how they were raised.

    Adora was raised to be perfect. She was the golden child with absolute insane expectations placed upon her shoulders. She wasn't allowed to want things, she wasn't allowed to relax. She was supposed to be Shadow Weaver's perfect little tool, to not think, handle everything perfectly, and above all else to obey. And constantly told that she needs to forget about other people and her own desires to focus on her duty instead. Adora consequentially is paranoid about showing weakness, neglects her own needs, is willing to sacrifice herself at the drop of a hat, and very very bad at concealing things or spotting other people's lies.

    Catra was almost the opposite. She was neglected in the most brutal way possible. Any achievement she ever got would be completely ignored, often blatantly, for Adora. She was only ever told that she was worthless, nothing but a distraction for her betters, and blamed for any time Adora wasn't perfect. She's actively told that she'd be killed if Adora didn't stand up for her. What she wants more than anything is to be important and valued. And Adora gave her that, and Catra loved her for it. But she also resented Adora because she saw her as getting all the attention that Catra wanted. Which in turn, builds because whenever Adora messes up, Catra is likely blamed, and tortured for it. While Adora then tries to defend Shadow Weaver and suggest that if Catra were more obedient this wouldn't happen. Which wouldn't work, but Adora can't see that, and Catra can't explain it.

    And this is all deliberate. Shadow Weaver deliberately cultivated this toxic relationship between Catra and Adora because it gave her the means to control them both. Need to control Adora? Threaten or hurt Catra, and say it's Adora's fault for not being perfect. Need to control Catra? Give false promises of affection, and of having what Adora has.

    Add in a culture that rejects any weakness, frowns upon affection, punishes failure, and that stamps out any form of leisure or pleasure, and you get two individuals who are so broken that they literally don't know how to love let alone communicate in a healthy manner. If you want to see more words on this, there's a couple video essays on Youtube called Why Adora matters, Why Catra matters, and How She Ra gives us hope. I highly recommend watching them if you care at all about their respective arcs.

    And I think the show does do a good job of showing their arcs. Of Catra's downward spiral until she's so broken she just sits there and asks why Glimmer hasn't killed her yet. Of Adora's constant giving of herself to the point where she's so tired she can't move, and still people want more from her. And of how Catra slowly begins piecing herself together and trying to find out who she is now. Of how Adora for literally the first time in the entire show actually expresses a goal that is 100% something she wants and isn't related to some duty or job that she has.

    And I don't think that the show tells us that their journeys are done at the end of the show. Catra certainly still has a long way to go. Adora still needs to discover who she is when she doesn't have a war to focus on. In fact, I'd say it is the opposite. That they are finally in a point where they can actually begin healing, where Catra can redeem herself, and Adora can find herself. They no longer have desperate circumstances or toxic influences holding them back. They've finally got a new hopeful beginning, but it is very much a beginning of a new chapter of their lives.
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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Catra needs a lot of therapy. I mean, Adora does too, but Catra? Catra needs has a lot of unpacking to do.
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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Catra seems like one of those characters that seems to happen when:
    • There was a war in the writer's room over how they should end up (Spike from Buffy)
    • They were probably intended to be a good guy, but in the messy middle of the show, it was just too useful to have them screw up/be awful (Ross from Friends, JD from Scrubs, honestly lots of sitcom characters in shows that went on for massively many seasons fall into this trap).
    • They probably were intended to not to be a good guy, but the 'affably evil' schtick won over fans, and they either decided to go with it, or make them start kicking puppies to make sure people remembered they were bad (Cole from Charmed kept showing he would always revert to evil behavior, but the audience kept rooting for him; ST:DS9 had to have a special episode where they reminded the audience that Gul Dukat was a unrepentant tyrant with a garbage self-justification).

    And similar scenarios. Thus the parts where they do things that don't feel redeemable-from and the parts where they clearly are intended to be redeemed are both there in series we got. I've heard (cannot back up) that the writers had to fight with Netflix to let the Catra/Adora ship sail. I wonder if the intended ending if they weren't allowed to go forward with it would be for Catra to still be in love with Adora, but realize that she was too wicked for them to end up happily together, and die in some kind of grand sacrifice (Darth Vader style redemption, if you will). They had to lay enough groundwork for that outcome to be plausible, even if some of it (Catra's general wickedness, not just being a loyal soldier to what we the audience know is team evil) makes the outcome they were finally allowed to go forward with feel a little uneasy.

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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Obviously it should be taken with some grains of salt, but Stevenson has made it clear from the get go the plan was always, always, for Catra to go the route she went. To show that sometimes you don't have to fully "earn" the love you want (a contestable point since I do feel Catra DID earn it, as much as one can earn the love of another person). That it's okay to want things, and sometimes you might even get them. They went into the show with the idea that "this is a love story about Adora and Catra, and the messy, imperfect path that leads to them being together".

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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    I still have unprocessed feelings involving this show. It is very good. But even the abuser is a form of sympathetic where one understands why she does it, and it makes sense in a fashion, but no I do not sympathize / empathize with her.

    So much generational trauma. And even the “good parent figures” are also doing some of the same ****ty things due to transference. Very good show.
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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
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    Agreed. Even her redemptive moment felt a little false. She was arguably the biggest obstacle to the heroes success for literally the entire show, right up to the final episode.
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    Fun fact: Stevenson has talked about how that scene was designed to feel at least somewhat false. Shadow Weaver was a horrible person, she got in everyone's way, and her abuse of the children under her care defined her. Even her sacrifice was a manipulation: that's why she says "you're welcome" and gives them a smug smile instead of, I dunno, actually apologizing sincerely for any of her numerous abuses. She gets to make them "owe" her one last time, and then peace out instead of working to heal the damage she did. It's not a redemptive sacrifice -- it's a mic drop.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Obviously it should be taken with some grains of salt, but Stevenson has made it clear from the get go the plan was always, always, for Catra to go the route she went. To show that sometimes you don't have to fully "earn" the love you want (a contestable point since I do feel Catra DID earn it, as much as one can earn the love of another person). That it's okay to want things, and sometimes you might even get them. They went into the show with the idea that "this is a love story about Adora and Catra, and the messy, imperfect path that leads to them being together".
    Agreed. The dynamic worked for me by the end, even if I'd also have loved more scenes of Catra atoning/apologizing to the rest of the heroes for her prior behavior. But aside from that, the concept worked for me. I think if Catra had died when she "wanted" to (after sending Glimmer away right before Save The Cat), her character arc would've been cemented by that redemptive sacrifice. I'm pretty sure she gets several lines about "I've been so terrible, I'm sorry, just let me do this one thing for you guys" in that episode. If she had died there, after a genuine self-sacrifice to try fixing what she had done, I think the viewers who found her unsympathetic would be an even smaller minority. But interestingly, because she fails to die after her heroic sacrifice, there's a little bit less goodwill from that section of the audience, seemingly because she gets off scot-free.

    I don't feel that way - I think the narrative made her work hard for that redemption. In fact, I deeply appreciate how much effort the story spent after that point to justify Catra's affection for Adora and vice versa; they didn't just go "well Catra tried to Do A Sacrifice so now everything's okay!", they actually kept building on the dynamic. I would've loved more of that, sure, but it's already a far sight more developed than most arcs of its kind.

    I couldn't disagree more with the "Spike" characterization/theory someone voiced above. Catra's arc is extremely clear from the get-go: just look at how she behaves around Adora in the very first episode. This is absolutely not just "some cool bad guy we redeemed because the fans liked them." Catra's story is there from the start. And it's the most emotionally compelling thing about the entire show for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I still have unprocessed feelings involving this show. It is very good. But even the abuser is a form of sympathetic where one understands why she does it, and it makes sense in a fashion, but no I do not sympathize / empathize with her.

    So much generational trauma. And even the “good parent figures” are also doing some of the same ****ty things due to transference. Very good show.
    She-Ra is an absolute gem for how it picks apart parent-child dynamics. One of my favorite aspects of the show; there's always something more for me to uncover on a rewatch.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2022-06-27 at 10:58 AM.

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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    A particular detail I like about the Catra redemption arc is that every single main character other than the main three do get one shot in on her before accepting her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Agreed. The dynamic worked for me by the end, even if I'd also have loved more scenes of Catra atoning/apologizing to the rest of the heroes for her prior behavior. But aside from that, the concept worked for me. I think if Catra had died when she "wanted" to (after sending Glimmer away right before Save The Cat), her character arc would've been cemented by that redemptive sacrifice. I'm pretty sure she gets several lines about "I've been so terrible, I'm sorry, just let me do this one thing for you guys" in that episode. If she had died there, after a genuine self-sacrifice to try fixing what she had done, I think the viewers who found her unsympathetic would be an even smaller minority. But interestingly, because she fails to die after her heroic sacrifice, there's a little bit less goodwill from that section of the audience, seemingly because she gets off scot-free.

    I don't feel that way - I think the narrative made her work hard for that redemption. In fact, I deeply appreciate how much effort the story spent after that point to justify Catra's affection for Adora and vice versa; they didn't just go "well Catra tried to Do A Sacrifice so now everything's okay!", they actually kept building on the dynamic. I would've loved more of that, sure, but it's already a far sight more developed than most arcs of its kind.

    I couldn't disagree more with the "Spike" characterization/theory someone voiced above. Catra's arc is extremely clear from the get-go: just look at how she behaves around Adora in the very first episode. This is absolutely not just "some cool bad guy we redeemed because the fans liked them." Catra's story is there from the start. And it's the most emotionally compelling thing about the entire show for me.
    I feel like you might not have caught what I was saying. The Spike reference was one of three references (plus a statement about it not being an exhaustive list) of situations where the writers have included characterizations which might not support the end resolution. I'm not sure why you think I stated that Catra was a case of "bad guy we redeemed because the fans liked them" (that was just an example of reasons, and not even the one tied to Spike). Your first paragraph here with the alternate ending is precisely what I was talking about -- If the showrunners were unable to go through with the them-ending-up-together plot, they had the groundwork laid for an epic sacrifice style ending.
    *and again, this is predicated on what I heard about the showrunners having to sell Netflix on Catra/Adora while the show was already ongoing, which I acknowledge I can't now find

    I agree that the plot not letting Catra easy-out on the redemption works well. It is a better resolution, and I'm glad they could do it. I just see some of her worst tendencies in the middle of the narrative (and treatment of the other villain crew) as vaguely kick-the-dog moments, and wonder if they may have been part of an emergency alternate ending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I feel like you might not have caught what I was saying. The Spike reference was one of three references (plus a statement about it not being an exhaustive list) of situations where the writers have included characterizations which might not support the end resolution. I'm not sure why you think I stated that Catra was a case of "bad guy we redeemed because the fans liked them" (that was just an example of reasons, and not even the one tied to Spike). Your first paragraph here with the alternate ending is precisely what I was talking about -- If the showrunners were unable to go through with the them-ending-up-together plot, they had the groundwork laid for an epic sacrifice style ending.
    *and again, this is predicated on what I heard about the showrunners having to sell Netflix on Catra/Adora while the show was already ongoing, which I acknowledge I can't now find

    I agree that the plot not letting Catra easy-out on the redemption works well. It is a better resolution, and I'm glad they could do it. I just see some of her worst tendencies in the middle of the narrative (and treatment of the other villain crew) as vaguely kick-the-dog moments, and wonder if they may have been part of an emergency alternate ending.
    You're right, that's on me for skimming & assuming: I read your initial list of three examples and got the impression you were saying Catra's arc was one of those types, but you were actually saying certain elements just reminded you of them.

    I see now what you mean about the alternate ending, though I don't personally get the vibe that they were laying groundwork for a full villain contingency in case Netflix strongarmed them. All of Catra's behavior, including her mid-seasons behavior, especially her mid-seasons behavior, plays out believably for me. Her kick-the-dog (kick-the-scorpion?) moments were necessary to show just how far she was spiraling, and I don't think the punch of the Season 4 finale would be as strong if she hadn't sunk so low beforehand.

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    I think it compares to Zuko's arc quite nicely. At the end of Book Two, Zuko has already had several big moments that are setting up his redemption, and it's SUPER telegraphed for us as the audience. He's so very obviously going to join Team Avatar. But then he doesn't, and Book Two ends with him back in the Fire Nation's good graces.

    At the time (when I was, what, 13), I remember hating this twist. I remember thinking it was contrived and out of character and only devised to string along Zuko as a villain for another season. But when I look at his story in full, I realize he had to go back to the Fire Nation before he could truly redeem himself. It wasn't enough for him to be promised everything he'd lost...he had to actually get it back, and realize that he didn't want it anymore! That's Zuko's arc, and it always was from the get-go. He had to sink far, far further than you expect him to at the start. It feels like too much. It might even feel a little contrived, like the writers are just arbitrarily picking whatever development juices the ratings. But ultimately, I think his arc is much better for him sinking that extra little bit to truly wallow in his failures, before rising back up.


    I feel the same way about Catra: her landing at rock bottom wouldn't hit the same way (and her redemption wouldn't feel as strong) if she'd just spent three seasons chasing Adora around and causing glorified mischief. She had to truly do something bad, and then truly attempt to make it up to them. Maybe some of those bad acts were hamfisted in execution, but I believe fully that they were first and foremost written in service to her ultimate redemption. I get where your theory is coming from, but I don't think they were giving that possibility the time of day when it came to actually writing the story: think it's more likely they would have just kept going on the original course until Netflix stopped them, and then retconned from that point onward if forced to.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2022-06-27 at 05:01 PM.

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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Part of me want to compare Catra to Satsuke, even down to “a blonde friend who want to redeem him despite knowing that he/she crossed multiple lines”.
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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    Quote Originally Posted by t209 View Post
    Part of me want to compare Catra to Satsuke, even down to “a blonde friend who want to redeem him despite knowing that he/she crossed multiple lines”.
    The issue there is that Sasuke never did anything self-sacrificing to show he still has some good in him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    The issue there is that Sasuke never did anything self-sacrificing to show he still has some good in him.
    I man, the whole "actively refused to fix the crippling injury that cost him the lion's share of the power he'd obtaine dup to that point" thing, though admittedly that came after the redemption.

    The analogy also falls flat because... Catra's just a hurt, spiteful, stupid teen that grew up in a toxic environment. She made bad choices that she needed to make at least token effort to atone for, but they were still her choices.

    Sasuke meanwhile has had the memory of finding his entire extended family slaughtered and being repeatedly shown the murder of his parents permanently burned into his memory, was more or less left to live by himself for six years, was subjected to a process that subtly brainwashed him into a caricature of himself and encouraged all of his negative and toxic traits, was subjected to torture again, was then given a much more thorough version of the slowly subtle brainwash thing that seems to have speed up the process after being told he'd just fricking die if he didn't, spent two years being groomed by a psychopath, fused with that same psychopath, then when said psychopath's soul was excised from him shortly afterward he was subjected to a trauma that triggered his family's genetic predisposition to emotional instability and caused him to start going slowly insane culminating in a complete break from reality when he confronted the man who basically forced his brother to slaughter their entire family.

    He eventually stabilized after meeting Itachi again and getting the truth of everything that happened from the only people who knew, but by then the damage was done.

    Catra needs the demonstration f remorse for her redemption to be believable but Sasuke is so mentally ****ed and plagued by extenuating circumstances that he can't reasonably be held fully responsible for most of his actions. Like, there is not enough therapy in the world to fix Sasuke, the best he can hope for is "functional enough to not be a danger to his loved ones."
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    Default Re: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

    I mean......

    if we're questioning Sasuke's redemption we have to question Gaara's. Because he was 100% psychotic murderer the whole way with very little to indicate his redeemability either- Gaara was technically more evil in some ways because he didn't want to kill a specific person for revenge, he just wanted to kill people in general to prove he existed- and actually killed a few genin during the exams, unlike Sasuke who even after training with Orochimaru for three years was specifically not killing people who weren't Itachi. and yet Naruto redeemed Gaara earlier. So like, if Sasuke shouldn't be redeemed or was poorly executed, then we have to question Gaara's redemption. oh and Pain, Pain is technically worse than Sasuke because Pain actually killed Naruto's whole village, so we have to question if Pain's redemption was good as well. and technically all the deaths that Sasuke did achieve was against people who either self-destructed or let themselves die because of a disease. so its kind of questionable if Sasuke truly killed anyone?

    that and Sasuke has an arc/novel after the finale called Sasuke Shinden: Rise of Sunset. its a story all about him and he does things like: spare the villain because they suffered injustice because of his clan in the past, help free slaves from fighting in a coliseum and such.

    also we have to take into account: Naruto world isn't our world. its a world of ninja villages who have been at war with each other for generations, he is not some modern kid facing all the same issues normal kids do, he is kid born into a military-based town whose entire history is fighting three continent-spanning wars with periods of peace in between which is considered an improvement over 900 years of constant feudal warfare with less tech. there is probably tons of stories in his world about ninjas from centuries past and the village era taking revenge for their fallen comrade or clan mate and it not only being accepted but maybe even glorified and used as propaganda against other villages who are Konoha's enemies so that he doesn't feel bad about killing the enemy, probably with further propaganda about traitors which y'know, militaries generally never like and Itachi committed a quite big betrayal to his entire clan. can you really blame Sasuke for thinking revenge is the solution, when there is an entire culture of warfare built on a thousand years of conflict pushing kids to become weapons for the state?
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