OOTS #1260 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

I'm not surprised that Xykon knows, I just wish we knew HOW he knows the information that he knows, because he kind of just....

Spoiler: SoD spoilers

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.....somehow magically knows that the goblins were planning on betraying him without him ever giving an explanation how in SoD, instead focusing everything on breaking Redcloak into being his evil minion. and this feels like a similar case. how did he figure out that Redcloak was planning this? when did he figure it out? its okay if this needs some retroactive explanation or flashback or whatever I just want AN explanation at all.

Spoiler: Spoiler

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Right-Eye wasn't as subtle as he thought, is all. Xykon knew he hated him and was bidding his time to betray him so he kept an eye on him while pretending he didn't notice a thing. Xykon may have a short attention span, but he's very perceptive and cunning.

[bunsen_h]

My guess is Scorching Ray. You can hit objects with it and you're not required to fire more than one beam, so etching graffiti into rocks is fair game.

Its duration is Instantaneous, so it doesn't look ideal for drawing with.

The MitD regarding dwarves as a delicacy is almost certainly a red herring. Not only could Xykon be mistaken, the comic establishes he doesn't bother with unimportant details, making misremembering likely.

My feeling is that it indicates that the MitD's race is described (somewhere, in some sourcebook) as either hating dwarves (i.e. wanting to kill them and -- Xykon assumes -- eat them) or liking them (which Xykon assumes means "liking to eat").

[halfeye]

I wonder why they changed the speech bubbles for the roaches. The new ones look rather nice and its a cool style but I stll have to wonder. Just stylistic changes? Will it be related to something else on the narrative? Were they made like that for the benefit of the reader?

For me it was a real struggle to read the old roach remarks, these are much better.

[Satohika]

Xykon sounds kind of bored and tired here. Like he don't feel anything anymore and just going through motions.

[Peelee]

They seem to have found out about the World-Within independently of the Order. They first learned of the Gates through Nale, but I think they've got another source of information.

That can be obtained by looking into the rift. Not that they specifically did it, but an agent could. They also almost certainly would have seen it when they were scrying on the Order in the desert before Sabine broke their TV, so mundane (as in, non-deity) means to obtain this information clearly exist.

The fact that the gods erase the memories of all outsiders is, presumably, a little harder to come by.

[Kornaki]

Its duration is Instantaneous, so it doesn't look ideal for drawing with.

The beam is instantaneous. The damage it does is obviously permanent, though I guess an enterprising rules lawyer could try to argue otherwise.

[Psyren]

Its duration is Instantaneous, so it doesn't look ideal for drawing with.

What? That actually makes it perfect for drawing. Are you sure you know what that duration means?

[Jervis]

The beam is instantaneous. The damage it does is obviously permanent, though I guess an enterprising rules lawyer could try to argue otherwise.

What? That actually makes it perfect for drawing. Are you sure you know what that duration means?

To be fair I think he was referring to how Xykon was using it to draw while speaking instead of sending out a bunch of fire bolts. I originally thought he had a reserve feat but the only line effect one is electric damage. Not impossible but not terribly likely. Are their any spells with a duration that let you shoot off a beam each turn?

[Niveus Candidus]

Moved post to correct thread!

[Rynjin]

To be fair I think he was referring to how Xykon was using it to draw while speaking instead of sending out a bunch of fire bolts. I originally thought he had a reserve feat but the only line effect one is electric damage.

It doesn't need to be a line, it very easily could be a Ray.

Quick, everybody comb through every sourcebook you can find for references to lifecycle-related insatiable hunger!

The only one I know off the top is Barghest/Greater Barghest but that sounds like something obvious enough to have been ruled out years ago.

[Peelee]

Not all. They've been gathering information on Hel's plans, for instance. It seems likely to me that they're keeping tabs on the Order, and we have no reason to believe that Durkon kept the nature of the world secret from anyone in the party. They seem to be able to scry on Vaarsuvius effortlessly, even when they're inside a Cloister.

Notwithstanding that we don't know how much they knew about Hel's plan before it went off (and that Hel openly admitted she had been discussing it with others, while Thor only told Durkon, and that's not a detail Durkon would need to let the Order kolnkw about.

Long story short, the end of the world means they get their minds wiped. This only doesn't happen if 1.) they are aware of this, and B.) they have a plan for this. They have given no indication of either being the case, so I am content to assume neither are the case until and unless there is reason to believe so. And, given how late in the game we are currently, I doubt any such indications will come. But hey, I may be surprised.

[RMS Oceanic]

I wonder how much of our reaction to Xykon's callousness is a shift in his portrayal, and how much a shift in MitD's perspective and reaction to that portrayal? Or both even.

[Kaed]

I think we should assume that Xykon believes himself to be as smart as he needs to be to achieve his goals. Which are, living forever and world domination. He may not actually be very smart in a book sense, but he may be a high-functioning sociopath, capable of deceiving everyone around him until he no longer needs them. He did not live long enough to become an epic level sorcerer without something that resembles intelligence, e.g., instinctive cunning. Therefore, I think it is likely that Xykon has figured out quite a bit more than he's letting on.

His plans almost certainly include killing Redcloak at the end of the ritual, and MitD as well. Redcloak has almost certainly figured that out, and has a plan to counter being murdered. MitD almost certainly has not figured that out.

There was a scene in the prequel book, Start of Darkness. I'll spare you the greater details but basically Xykon was having doubts about the plan and was ready to murder Redcloak, and Redcloak threatened to destroy his phylactery.

Xykon was not remotely surprised by this action, and seemed to have been aware Redcloak had some kind of backup plan to control him (though maybe had not known the exact details until that second) and had already planned around it.

He also revealed this contingency plan behavior at the end of the SoD, when Redcloak was forced to make a difficult choice and ended up siding with Xykon at the expense of someone important to him, and found out the entire plot he thought he was stopping was irrelevant because Xykon had been prepared for it for months in advance.

So yeah, he absolutely has some kind of plan for MitD and Redcloak that he isn't telling them, it's happened before.


Interesting note on the goal living forever, though, I don't think that Xykon ever originally had that in his plans until he met Redcloak. When the two met, Xykon was an elderly sorcerer wandering the countryside performing random mass murders without a whole lot of direction or goals. The vibe I got from him was that he was aware his death was coming and was trying to squeeze as much enjoyment out of his last years as possible. He only became a lich basically out of spite, after being wholly defeated by another epic level caster in a fight and imprisoned beneath the earth to die there. He really didn't like that and wanted revenge.

Now, that isn't to say that he doesn't value living forever now, but rather that I don't think he ever planned on doing so and has just run with the opportunity and has pretended it was his plan all along and part of his 'winning strategy' per the conversation with V during their duel.

[chy03001]

Yep, our boy MitD is a pit fiend :-D

[Fyraltari]

Interesting note on the goal living forever, though, I don't think that Xykon ever originally had that in his plans until he met Redcloak. When the two met, Xykon was an elderly sorcerer wandering the countryside performing random mass murders without a whole lot of direction or goals. The vibe I got from him was that he was aware his death was coming and was trying to squeeze as much enjoyment out of his last years as possible. He only became a lich basically out of spite, after being wholly defeated by another epic level caster in a fight and imprisoned beneath the earth to die there. He really didn't like that and wanted revenge.

Now, that isn't to say that he doesn't value living forever now, but rather that I don't think he ever planned on doing so and has just run with the opportunity and has pretended it was his plan all along and part of his 'winning strategy' per the conversation with V during their duel.

Yes, for as much **** as Xykon lays on Redcloak for making up justifications for his evil actions, I think his own little spiel about "anything to avoid the Big Fire Below" is cut from the same cloth. Becoming a lich wasn't his idea, he's not happy being one but he's convinced himself it was what he wanted all along to cope with it.

[H_H_F_F]

Yep, our boy MitD is a pit fiend :-D

How did you come to that conclusion?

[Ruck]

I'm not surprised that Xykon knows, I just wish we knew HOW he knows the information that he knows

Knows what, exactly? I get the impression a lot of extrapolation has been made in this thread about Xykon knowing Redcloak is planning to betray him because of the graffiti.

My feeling is that it indicates that the MitD's race is described (somewhere, in some sourcebook) as either hating dwarves (i.e. wanting to kill them and -- Xykon assumes -- eat them) or liking them (which Xykon assumes means "liking to eat").

MitD certainly has more interest in dwarves than might be considered typical, anyway.

Yep, our boy MitD is a pit fiend :-D

Nah, he's a protean.

[Kaed]

Yes, for as much **** as Xykon lays on Redcloak for making up justifications for his evil actions, I think his own little spiel about "anything to avoid the Big Fire Below" is cut from the same cloth. Becoming a lich wasn't his idea, he's not happy being one but he's convinced himself it was what he wanted all along to cope with it.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Xykon on some level hates what he is now. It's been 27 years (thanks Fyraltari for the clarification :D) since he became a lich, and he still fairly consistently makes mention of his living body and it being torn apart in self-depreciating jokes. He is someone who has habitually used necromancy on his victims to make free minions his entire life, and clearly views undeath as an existence subservient to the living. It's also why he's even more murderous than he used to be, because on some level he has lost all sense of value to his existence and takes it out on his subordinates, along with any enemies, and any also probably any people who happen to unfortunately pass by his line of sight when he's in a bit of a bad mood.

However, he's also too much of a horrible stubborn monster to admit that he wants to die, and he's put his focus on the fact that he has this world domination goal. I doubt that he even really cares about ruling the world anymore, you need to value the esteem and/or worship of other people to want to rule the world, and all Xykon finds even pleasurable anymore is the screams of helpless mortals as he kills them, interspersed with childish acts of vandalism.

So, he doesn't want to (un)live, but he doesn't like losing even more, as we've seen from when he finally lost and got imprisoned and took the step to becoming a lich. If he gives up now and/or dies before finishing the 'rule the world' goal, then he'll have failed, and his ego can't tolerate that.

[Carl]

They seem to have found out about the World-Within independently of the Order. They first learned of the Gates through Nale, but I think they've got another source of information.

Spoiler: SoD

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SoD shows the dinner where Redcloak first outlined the gates and the ritual to him as having Demon Roach's, and at the end they where keen to get them out of the way. My bet is thats how they found out. The Roaches that are with them
now are from the same place, probably the IFCC's spies on team Evil.

[JonahFalcon]

Demon Roach: My speech balloons are blush and bashful.
Xykon: Your speech balloons are pink and pink.
Demon Roach: Pink is my signature color.

[Envyus]

Nightmare Beast is my leading theory for MitD. Do they like to eat Dwarves?

[mehs]

Something just clicked for me. Xykon's secret astral fortress. He plans to let the world burn and laugh his ass off from his SAF.
Then once the new world is made he'll have easier minions to dominate.

That kinda assumes that Xykon lasts in between worlds, at least for it to actually work. Between the gods already knowing about it, and it isn't like non-outsiders manage to last in between worlds, and even then the gods need to wipe their memories to prevent them from going insane.

At the end of the day, while the gods' hands may be tied while a world has been created, they sure as Hel aren't going to just let the person who kicked their last sand castle stand by in the waiting for them to kick over their next one.

[Blatt]

I'm going character development means MITD (aka MUU) doesn't want to eat the good guys and is making up stories about being full. This is consistent with the misdirecting extra crosses.

[mehs]

How did you come to that conclusion?

I believe it was a reference to Lord of the Rings, the demon thing from the mines of moria, either Pit Fiends or Balor Demons are modeled after it.

[Fyraltari]

It's been over a decade I believe since he became a lich (exact time is unclear, but at least one generation of goblins were born and grew up since)

SoD places the transformation as taking place 27 years before Dungeon Crawling Fools.

[facw]

Something just clicked for me. Xykon's secret astral fortress. He plans to let the world burn and laugh his ass off from his SAF.
Then once the new world is made he'll have easier minions to dominate.

People seem to think that travelling to another plane will save people from the world's destruction, and Xykon might (though presumably he doesn't know about the god's' plan to destroy the world) but somehow I doubt that would actually work. If the gods go to the trouble of mind wiping the outsiders, it seems unlikely they'd let some random sorcerer or cleric stick around (especially when they are physically made of the threads of reality needed to imprison the Snarl). Perhaps just as bad, someone who can travel between planes could potentially create a way for the Snarl to reach into other planes.

I'd guess if their method of destruction doesn't automatically destroy travelers on other planes, they'd eventually do some cleanup. Perhaps not immediately given that they have centuries before they need to remake the word, so it is easier to just let most travelers die on their own, but it seems like it would be the thing to do.

[riMkrad]

Xykon is smarter than he let's on. Recall in one of the prequel books spoiler alert....





he tells red cloak to not confuse not caring with not knowing in regards to red cloak's brother.

[TRH]

People seem to think that travelling to another plane will save people from the world's destruction, and Xykon might (though presumably he doesn't know about the god's' plan to destroy the world) but somehow I doubt that would actually work. If the gods go to the trouble of mind wiping the outsiders, it seems unlikely they'd let some random sorcerer or cleric stick around (especially when they are physically made of the threads of reality needed to imprison the Snarl). Perhaps just as bad, someone who can travel between planes could potentially create a way for the Snarl to reach into other planes.

I'd guess if their method of destruction doesn't automatically destroy travelers on other planes, they'd eventually do some cleanup. Perhaps not immediately given that they have centuries before they need to remake the word, so it is easier to just let most travelers die on their own, but it seems like it would be the thing to do.

How exactly would an instantaneous Plane Shift spell create a permanent pathway from the Material Plane to somewhere else for the Snarl to slip through? Even if the Snarl was right on their heels and somehow didn't unmake them before they could escape, the spell only affects willing creatures joining hands in a circle, so it wouldn't drag any piece of Snarl along for the ride.

Honestly it seems to me the real issue in this thread is people assuming that the multiple characters who've brought up the option of surviving the world's destruction by escaping to another plane are all wrong, not the people who haven't seen anything in the text contradict the characters' assessments of their options. And I'll point out the list of characters with said belief include a cleric who was in direct communication with a god who's not only involved in the destruction process but had studied the mechanics of said destruction more carefully than most of her peers. So the folks postulating that the gods will hunt down and erase stragglers afterwards must think Hel was lying/withholding information from Greg, or else that she'd intervene to protect Greg from the other gods who would otherwise want to silence him. And if that's your argument, that's fine, but it's not exactly parsimonious.

[KorvinStarmast]

Which is odd because some of the things he's saying feel like they are intended to be funny but they just fall flat and make me feel uncomfortable.

Killing people isn't necessarily funny. You gotta to nail the timing.
Maybe he's got a problem with timing.

[JonahFalcon]

Killing people isn't necessarily funny. You gotta to nail the timing.
Maybe he's got a problem with timing.

The thing is, he's not Thog. He's not supposed to be funny. Rich has said that he doesn't want Xykon to have villain decay. He's not supposed to make you laugh at his evil. Check the forward of Start of Darkness: "He's kind of a [expletive deleted]".

He was casually murderous before he was a lich, but as a lich -- he offed a waitress because he couldn't taste coffee anymore.

It wasn't meant as a joke.