A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaziggy View Post
    This is why I like the loculi. I think it tracks that a 1st edition creature would plausibly be unable to see the gates
    MitD has not problem seeing the gate. He just doesn't know it is one. And Xykon gives up on explaining.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaziggy View Post
    This is why I like the loculi. I think it tracks that a 1st edition creature would plausibly be unable to see the gates, since they existed before the snarl. ... Snip
    I am still researching, and just wanted to say thanks for giving me something interesting to think about, kind internet stranger.

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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaziggy View Post
    This is why I like the loculi. I think it tracks that a 1st edition creature would plausibly be unable to see the gates, since they existed before the snarl. The crayon story shows that first world the snarl destroys as your basic D&D world- there's a halfling, a dragon, etc. A powerful creature could conceivably have survived that, gone extra-planar, and floated in the vast astral emptiness for countless eons. That kind of isolation might also explain the odd mind and character of MiTD.
    Haley's father was a 1st edition thief, so being a 1st edition anything does not mean they predate the Snarl.
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  4. - Top - End - #784
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    If MitD is a Protean, could be interesting to see how these Lawful gated creatures react to something of such pure chaos. (Or perhaps we won't see that because that would be too big of a clue.)

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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    If MitD is a Protean, could be interesting to see how these Lawful gated creatures react to something of such pure chaos. (Or perhaps we won't see that because that would be too big of a clue.)
    Can these modrons see through the umbrella's magical darkness?
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Can these modrons see through the umbrella's magical darkness?
    No, 3.5 modrons have darkvision but not Truesight. However, maybe other senses can perceive chaos, or they cast something like Detect Chaos routinely.

    They will certainly see Xykon, though, and he's pretty chaotic.
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    If MitD is a Protean, could be interesting to see how these Lawful gated creatures react to something of such pure chaos. (Or perhaps we won't see that because that would be too big of a clue.)
    Yeah, I’m thinking 30 strips of wacky shenanigans as the Modrons keep JUST missing seeing MitD, finally see him as they’re leaving and we just see them going “WTF!?!?” as they gate back to Mechanus.

    I’m unsure if they can see through the darkness. In 5E they totally can, but I’m 3.5 they have dark vision plus “immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities” like undead. So, if Xykon can see MitD, so can they. Depends on the specific mechanics of how the darkness works, I think.

    Huh. Shouldn’t Xykon have been able to see V when they were invisible? Maybe it’s not mechanically a mind-affecting spell.

    Edit - Hmm. This isn't "evidence" of any kind, but the appearance of a huge troop of Modrons *may* lend some narrative significance to the Protean or Slaad candidates.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2022-08-11 at 07:01 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #788
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Haley's father was a 1st edition thief, so being a 1st edition anything does not mean they predate the Snarl.
    Sure- I just mean a 'before the snarl' creature. Something from a source book in the 80's that had never been updated would fit that bill.

  9. - Top - End - #789
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaziggy View Post
    Sure- I just mean a 'before the snarl' creature. Something from a source book in the 80's that had never been updated would fit that bill.
    I fail to see how 1st ed is "before the snarl" but 3rd is not. Both predate the Snarl under any definition I can think of.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  10. - Top - End - #790
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    If you go with the Snarl being a metaphorical reference to D&D being created by authors who often argued with each other--which I've never really found compelling anyway--that would place it prior to Basic, back when Gary Gygax was printing in the first text for Meteor Swarm that it did create standard fireballs, not, as someone else there had wanted, flaming rocks which ignored magic resistance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Saying the MitD lied in one of the few clues (having a father) seems unlikely as it would mean that anything it says cannot be trusted. Which would mean it’s just a guessing game and not one that can be worked out.
    I suspect the role of the roaches is to act as 4th wall commentators and perhaps encouraging him to evil.
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Huh. Shouldn’t Xykon have been able to see V when they were invisible? Maybe it’s not mechanically a mind-affecting spell.
    According to SRD, Invisibility is a "glamer" (I prefer the traditional "glamour"), to wit: "A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear." The spell is cast on V, not on Xykon. On the other hand, an enchantment or charm spell ("You can't see me") would be mind-affecting, therefore wouldn't work on a lich.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Yeah, I’m thinking 30 strips of wacky shenanigans as the Modrons keep JUST missing seeing MitD, finally see him as they’re leaving and we just see them going “WTF!?!?” as they gate back to Mechanus.
    Don't gate them back to me, I have a problem with creatures of pure Law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaziggy View Post
    Sure- I just mean a 'before the snarl' creature. Something from a source book in the 80's that had never been updated would fit that bill.
    Considering that most of the edition jokes to be made were gotten out of the strip's system back in the first book, it doesn't seem particularly likely if the whole thing about the MitD comes down to "it's something really scary that hasn't been updated in years." Leaving aside that 1st Edition does not actually predate the Snarl in any way for a variety of reasons, nor would it add anything to the MitD's story in the first place.
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  14. - Top - End - #794
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dame_Mechanus View Post
    Don't gate them back to me, I have a problem with creatures of pure Law.
    Oh, hah! Wouldn't dream of it!
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  15. - Top - End - #795
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Yeah, I’m thinking 30 strips of wacky shenanigans as the Modrons keep JUST missing seeing MitD, finally see him as they’re leaving and we just see them going “WTF!?!?” as they gate back to Mechanus.
    Heh, I don't know what form it would take. I was imagining something like they could physically sense how Chaotic MitD is just by standing near him; maybe that would give them pause to work with Redcloak. (Sure, Xykon is extremely Chaotic, but not by dint of his species having some sort of elemental attachment to Chaos. He's just an impulsive jerk who doesn't care for much beyond destruction.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dame_Mechanus View Post
    Don't gate them back to me, I have a problem with creatures of pure Law.
    And you're Dame Mechanus? More like Dame Irony imo.
    Last edited by Ruck; 2022-08-13 at 10:52 PM.

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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    And you're Dame Mechanus? More like Dame Irony imo.
    There can be other meanings! I happen to like robots, thank you very much.
    "But it always seemed weird to me to get mad about things going wrong, as if everything turning out OK was promised to anyone, ever. There wouldn't need to be paladins if the world was, like, fair." -Lien

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  17. - Top - End - #797
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dame_Mechanus View Post
    nor would it add anything to the MitD's story in the first place.
    If he was pre-snarl he'd be the only thing in the universe with four quiddities in him. It would elevate his switching sides from a tactical advantage for the Order to a potentially story altering ability to interact with the snarl and/or the gates in a new way. His essence could be essential for closing the gates, or perhaps he could more effectively fight the snarl and slow it down in a meaningful way, just as a few ideas.

  18. - Top - End - #798
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Heh, I don't know what form it would take. I was imagining something like they could physically sense how Chaotic MitD is just by standing near him; maybe that would give them pause to work with Redcloak. (Sure, Xykon is extremely Chaotic, but not by dint of his species having some sort of elemental attachment to Chaos. He's just an impulsive jerk who doesn't care for much beyond destruction.)
    Proteans are no more attached to chaos then any other creature of their hit dice and alignment - they aren't outsiders or the like, they were tainted with chaos at the time of the races creation but nothing seems to indicate then there is a presistent affect from that linking them to chaos.

    If a a race was stabbed at the time of its creation it might suffer consequences from this, but it wouldn't automatically give that race some elemental affinity for knives.

  19. - Top - End - #799
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaziggy View Post
    If he was pre-snarl he'd be the only thing in the universe with four quiddities in him. It would elevate his switching sides from a tactical advantage for the Order to a potentially story altering ability to interact with the snarl and/or the gates in a new way. His essence could be essential for closing the gates, or perhaps he could more effectively fight the snarl and slow it down in a meaningful way, just as a few ideas.
    Let's assume for the moment he is prr-snarl and a 4-color creature. That would put him on par with the rest of the original world. Which, it is important to note, was destroyed by the Snarl.

    The number of colors he's made of is irrelevant if he can't go toe-to-toe. The dirt farming commoners are made of the same number of quiddities as Xykon and yet they would likely not be of any use in a fight against Xykon.

    And then we can stop that assumption becuase there is no reason whatsoever to think he might be a relic of the original world, and there is reason to think he is not (eg the big game hunters recognizing him despite that knowledge of multiple worlds is incredibly secret).
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Proteans are no more attached to chaos then any other creature of their hit dice and alignment - they aren't outsiders or the like, they were tainted with chaos at the time of the races creation but nothing seems to indicate then there is a presistent affect from that linking them to chaos.
    You means, other that mutating all the time and being able to destabilize creature into primordial broth by touch? Or ignoring that fact that they origin from the Maelstrom and that is their literal religion?
    I'd arrogantly assume that they are quite a little more than merely tainted by chaos.
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurentio III View Post
    You means, other that mutating all the time and being able to destabilize creature into primordial broth by touch? Or ignoring that fact that they origin from the Maelstrom and that is their literal religion?
    I'd arrogantly assume that they are quite a little more than merely tainted by chaos.
    I believe that you might be confusing these proteans with these proteans - they have little to nothing in common other then the name, but of particular note is that the pathfinder ones are chaotic outsiders, and the DnD ones are not.

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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    And then we can stop that assumption becuase there is no reason whatsoever to think he might be a relic of the original world, and there is reason to think he is not (eg the big game hunters recognizing him despite that knowledge of multiple worlds is incredibly secret).
    Worse, they also imply he is not unique. How many remnants from a world from billions upon billions of iterations ago are there running around that the SBGH can talk about "one of those", and how have the gods, who literally can count the uncountable worlds and remember their every follower, not noticed that a four-quiddity species is still running around every subsequent world?

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2022-08-15 at 12:50 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I believe that you might be confusing these proteans with these proteans - they have little to nothing in common other then the name, but of particular note is that the pathfinder ones are chaotic outsiders, and the DnD ones are not.
    Same powers, and the D&D one are even phisically more chaotic.
    Yes, one is an outsider and the other isn't, but my point is:
    • all powers are based on chaos and mutation (self-mutation, extreme adaptation, destabilizing touch);
    • they cultivate their chaos nature and actually shun creature that have no chaotic aspects.

    Even if "chaos" is not in their stat block, proteans - all proteans - are pure physical chaos. A creature serving LAW would not appreciate their presence.
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurentio III View Post
    Same powers
    No they don't - if nothing else pathfinder proteans are a class of creature like 'demon' or 'devil' they have a host of different types.

    DnD Hagunemnon are biological creatures, a single species.

    • all powers are based on chaos and mutation (self-mutation, extreme adaptation, destabilizing touch);
    None of the Hagunemnon's powers are particularly chaotic - not there psionics abilities, nor the destabilize form ability (it consistently turns people into clear fluid which drains away - an actual chaotic power would be more like the greater warpwave of an Izfiitar), mutation is a decided process for a Hagunemnon i.e they decide which powers they get etc.

    • they cultivate their chaos nature and actually shun creature that have no chaotic aspects.
    Hagunemnon don't do this - they shun creatures which are not shapechangers (and look down on must other shapechangers) but they will be a lot more hostile (in general) to a chaotic creature without the ability to change shape (i.e a Will-O’-Wisp) then to a lawful creature which can (i.e a Barghest).

    Even if "chaos" is not in their stat block, proteans - all proteans - are pure physical chaos.
    Pathfinder ones are - DnD ones are not they were tainted by chaos when they were created as a race and that is it for the connection they have to it, if you want to show show lore or background for Hagunemnon's which I have overlooked I am happy to review.

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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Hmm. Given that the confirmed Quinton (for the win-ton) has been looking approximately at MitD for most of this conversation, it either can't see through MitD's darkness or its not sufficiently alarmed to comment.

    Perhaps we won't have 30 strips of Benny Hill misdirection after all. A casual "So, why do you have a Protean under an umbrella?" would be pretty narratively unsatisfying, and I remain utterly certain the Modron's appearance will tie to MitD somehow, so I guess the Giant is up to something clever, as usual.
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    I don't know if this has been brought up before, but one potential tidbit of support for the Sapphire Dragon theory (which is the one I am currently going with) is that O-Chul says that he has a theory and we can reasonably assume that all his levels are either paladin or fighter, both of which give low skill points and not terribly many Knowledge skills as class skills, so to me, the MitD being a Sapphire Dragon makes sense as to why O-Chul, a veteran of the Sapphire Guard, might recognize his species.

    After all, we don't know where that sapphire that Soon used to seal the rift even came from. What if it wasn't a normal sapphire? What if it was part of a Sapphire Dragon?

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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    I don't know if this has been brought up before, but one potential tidbit of support for the Sapphire Dragon theory (which is the one I am currently going with) is that O-Chul says that he has a theory and we can reasonably assume that all his levels are either paladin or fighter, both of which give low skill points and not terribly many Knowledge skills as class skills, so to me, the MitD being a Sapphire Dragon makes sense as to why O-Chul, a veteran of the Sapphire Guard, might recognize his species.

    After all, we don't know where that sapphire that Soon used to seal the rift even came from. What if it wasn't a normal sapphire? What if it was part of a Sapphire Dragon?
    O-Chul developed his theory about MitD's identity after consulting with Hinjo's most learned scribe, so I don't think we can deduce anything from his presumed lack of ranks in any given Knowledge skill.
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    After all, we don't know where that sapphire that Soon used to seal the rift even came from. What if it wasn't a normal sapphire? What if it was part of a Sapphire Dragon?
    Sapphire dragons aren't made of sapphire any more than silver dragons are made of silver.
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    O-Chul developed his theory about MitD's identity after consulting with Hinjo's most learned scribe, so I don't think we can deduce anything from his presumed lack of ranks in any given Knowledge skill.
    Good catch! That said, I think if it was as simple as "I explained everything I knew to our most learned scribe and they told me it was probably [this creature neither you nor I have ever heard of]" I don't think he would have told Lien "if I told you, you wouldn't believe me" since [an obscure creature we've never heard of but our most learned scribe has] seems pretty believable to me. I think the "you wouldn't believe me" part comes from both O-Chul and Lien being familiar with the type of creature O-Chul thinks the MitD is, but it being extremely unlikely, if not seemingly impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sapphire dragons aren't made of sapphire any more than silver dragons are made of silver.
    Maybe! We don't really know, and more importantly, even if the Sapphire that Soon used wasn't a Sapphire Dragon scale/heart, it still could have been specially made by one of them in order to properly contain the gate. So far, every gate we've seen has either been made of a magical material, or was being anchored to magical creatures (in Lirian's case), so it makes sense to assume that Soon's sapphire was magical or magically-treated in some way.

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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Good catch! That said, I think if it was as simple as "I explained everything I knew to our most learned scribe and they told me it was probably [this creature neither you nor I have ever heard of]" I don't think he would have told Lien "if I told you, you wouldn't believe me" since [an obscure creature we've never heard of but our most learned scribe has] seems pretty believable to me. I think the "you wouldn't believe me" part comes from both O-Chul and Lien being familiar with the type of creature O-Chul thinks the MitD is, but it being extremely unlikely, if not seemingly impossible.
    I think the reason O-Chul didn't expect Lien to believe his theory about MitD is because MitD's personality and actions are very different from what is typical for his species.
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