A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Joerg View Post
    I don't see Rich writing the scene like that if MitD can in fact create zombies. We don't know whether it can and it is a guessing game; Rich wants to give hints, not false leads.
    In his own words, it is a mystery, rather than a guessing game and mysteries are allowed to have red herrings, as long as it's possible to work out what they are, Several clues, such as his size and strength have gradually been hinted to not have been what they seemed. And several clues, including the most recent comic's have been structured in such a way that it's hard to tell if it's a clue at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45
    There's a contradiction there; if you're convinced the other person is useless, the "okay, how exactly do you think you can help?" is 100% rhetorical, as Thermophille pointed out.
    There's no contradiction. It's called "giving someone a chance."

  2. - Top - End - #302
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    In his own words, it is a mystery, rather than a guessing game and mysteries are allowed to have red herrings, as long as it's possible to work out what they are, Several clues, such as his size and strength have gradually been hinted to not have been what they seemed. And several clues, including the most recent comic's have been structured in such a way that it's hard to tell if it's a clue at all.
    Setting aside that this is wildly mis-describing the nature of the matter, it is incredibly obvious that the scene in question is a clue as it is straight to the point instead of waffling in any way, not even for humor purposes, and from the character who is our most reliable source of information concerning MitD.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    There's no contradiction. It's called "giving someone a chance."
    I would have said "It's called "humoring someone"" but either way this entire train of thought only works if you willingly disregard the nature of the scene and the characterization of both MitD and Redcloak. I would like to request you do not continue it because we have been talking in circles for two pages, and I would rather talk about the potential importance of the "Dwarf" as a meta-clue.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Setting aside that this is wildly mis-describing the nature of the matter
    Let alone wildly mis-describing Rich's own words. I don't recall where he said "It's a mystery, rather than a guessing game." He's used the word "mystery" in describing what MitD is, because it is still unknown and hence mysterious to us, but he has not said anything to the effect of "It's not a guessing game."

    I do recall where he said it's important to the story and not just a guessing game. I also recall that he said, specifically, "It is possible to guess," and giving purposely false clues would seem to contradict that.

    Since Rich says it's possible to guess, and that he has known what MitD is since he first drew up the main overarching plot of OOTS, I think we have to assume he's being precise in adhering to what MitD's species can do whenever he's in a strip. Assuming he's purposely giving false or misleading clues would sink our ability to guess, so I don't think we can operate under that assumption.

  4. - Top - End - #304
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    My point was missed. It's not that Wish explains the Escape; it's that Wish means that MitD can greatly further RedCloak's goals by using the most powerful spell known to standard D&D. For example, Wish would have allowed MitD to create zombies. Or, MitD could wish that RedCloak knew the location of the last Gate. Even if the use of Wish is constrained to, e.g., "once a year" or "under certain circumstances", if the spell is listed as part of MitD's description in the Monster Manual, there's no way RedCloak either overlooks that, or forgets it.

    So I think we're looking at one of these possibilities:
    1. MitD's species cannot normally cast Wish, but he can. We know he's unusual.
    2. MitD's species can normally cast Wish under some circumstances, and RedCloak has mis-identified MitD. RedCloak believes he knows what MitD is, but he's wrong.
    3. The power used to achieve the Escape was not Wish.


    Based on what I wrote earlier about 3.5 skill points, I think we should consider (2). MitD is a member of a species which can easily be mistaken for something less powerful.

    EDIT: for completeness, there's (4): MitD is a member of a species that can cast Wish, but it's not mentioned explicitly in the Monster Manual entry; for example, the entry says "Can cast sorcerer spells" and RedCloak doesn't realize MitD can cast at 9th level if the desire is great enough.
    Last edited by Shining Wrath; Today at 04:55 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #305
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    There's another possibility:
    4. MitD's species can cast Wish, and Redcloak is aware of this, but Redcloak also thinks MitD is a useless individual who fails to display any of his species's powers, so he doesn't believe he can get a Wish out of him (the obvious problem with this possibility is that we never see Redcloak trying to get anything out of MitD).

    And even:
    5. MitD's species can cast Wish or has an essentially equivalent power, but Redcloak is not aware of this even though he knows what MitD is (there's no guarantee that MitD appears in any of Redcloak's MMs, or even that he's a D&D monster).

    edit: partially ninja'd by edit
    Last edited by hroțila; Today at 04:57 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    My point was missed. It's not that Wish explains the Escape; it's that Wish means that MitD can greatly further RedCloak's goals by using the most powerful spell known to standard D&D. For example, Wish would have allowed MitD to create zombies. Or, MitD could wish that RedCloak knew the location of the last Gate. Even if the use of Wish is constrained to, e.g., "once a year" or "under certain circumstances", if the spell is listed as part of MitD's description in the Monster Manual, there's no way RedCloak either overlooks that, or forgets it.
    My guess would be that Redcloak tried to get the MitD to use Wish but it never worked either because the MitD didn't understand what was asked or because he didn't want it strongly enough and Redcloak eventually gave up.
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  7. - Top - End - #307
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Just a thought about the tower scene and previous editions. I have vague memories of in Baldurs Gate (based on 2e I think?) that low THAC0 was better and I think strength checks required you to roll under your strength rather than against a DC.
    Could MitDs 'high AC' be because 3.5 enemies are using their attack rolls wrong against 2e armour and his 'immense strength when trying to hit weakly' be because he's accidentally abusing his 2e abilities with 3.5 rolls somehow?

  8. - Top - End - #308
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Just a thought about the tower scene and previous editions. I have vague memories of in Baldurs Gate (based on 2e I think?) that low THAC0 was better and I think strength checks required you to roll under your strength rather than against a DC.
    Could MitDs 'high AC' be because 3.5 enemies are using their attack rolls wrong against 2e armour and his 'immense strength when trying to hit weakly' be because he's accidentally abusing his 2e abilities with 3.5 rolls somehow?
    If MitD was a super-powerful 2e monster his AC would be negative, and any attack would hit him. Demogorgon, for example, had a -10 AC in 2e rules.
    Then damage was computed more or less the same (weapon dice + adds), so trying to hit lightly would work the same.
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  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    My point was missed. It's not that Wish explains the Escape; it's that Wish means that MitD can greatly further RedCloak's goals by using the most powerful spell known to standard D&D. For example, Wish would have allowed MitD to create zombies. Or, MitD could wish that RedCloak knew the location of the last Gate. Even if the use of Wish is constrained to, e.g., "once a year" or "under certain circumstances", if the spell is listed as part of MitD's description in the Monster Manual, there's no way RedCloak either overlooks that, or forgets it.

    So I think we're looking at one of these possibilities:
    1. MitD's species cannot normally cast Wish, but he can. We know he's unusual.
    2. MitD's species can normally cast Wish under some circumstances, and RedCloak has mis-identified MitD. RedCloak believes he knows what MitD is, but he's wrong.
    3. The power used to achieve the Escape was not Wish.


    Based on what I wrote earlier about 3.5 skill points, I think we should consider (2). MitD is a member of a species which can easily be mistaken for something less powerful.

    EDIT: for completeness, there's (4): MitD is a member of a species that can cast Wish, but it's not mentioned explicitly in the Monster Manual entry; for example, the entry says "Can cast sorcerer spells" and RedCloak doesn't realize MitD can cast at 9th level if the desire is great enough.
    You raise a really good point here. Yes, Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision is the best answer to the escape scene, but you’re right that a monster generally known to have them (I’m thinking specifically of the Glabrezu here) would be SUCH a powerful tool that RC would have spent a gigantic amount of time working with MitD trying to make it happen. And he might never have thrown in the towel. I think I’m going to remove Glabrezu from my guess.

    The one exception would be psionic Reality Revision. If RC wasn’t sure psionic existed, he wouldn’t be sure MitD had it, if MitD was a race that could have that. Are there races that get Reality Revision? I’m not sure I’ve ever seen one.

    Edit - Bend Reality would probably work, too.
    Last edited by Crusher; Today at 10:16 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #310
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    You raise a really good point here. Yes, Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision is the best answer to the escape scene, but you’re right that a monster generally known to have them (I’m thinking specifically of the Glabrezu here) would be SUCH a powerful tool that RC would have spent a gigantic amount of time working with MitD trying to make it happen. And he might never have thrown in the towel. I think I’m going to remove Glabrezu from my guess.

    The one exception would be psionic Reality Revision. If RC wasn’t sure psionic existed, he wouldn’t be sure MitD had it, if MitD was a race that could have that. Are there races that get Reality Revision? I’m not sure I’ve ever seen one.

    Edit - Bend Reality would probably work, too.
    I've never been much on the wish train of thought, but I wonder if the scene portrayed here where O'Chul fails to escape, the MitD is baffled at why his wish to have him escape didn't work. I wonder if he's aware that, for him at least, just wishing for things can make them happen, and we're just chalking it up to juvenile mindset instead of literal reality.
    Last edited by Eric the White; Today at 10:32 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the White View Post
    I've never been much on the wish train of thought, but I wonder if the scene portrayed here where O'Chul fails to escape, the MitD is baffled at why his wish to have him escape didn't work. I wonder if he's aware that, for him at least, just wishing for things can make them happen, and we're just chalking it up to juvenile mindset instead of literal reality.
    If he was aware that just wishing for things can make them happen, then not only would be it odd for him to try to replicate it later on (to no avail), but it would also be the author straight-up lying when he said the MitD discovered powers be didn't even know he had when he saved O-Chul.
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  12. - Top - End - #312
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    There's another possibility:
    4. MitD's species can cast Wish, and Redcloak is aware of this, but Redcloak also thinks MitD is a useless individual who fails to display any of his species's powers, so he doesn't believe he can get a Wish out of him (the obvious problem with this possibility is that we never see Redcloak trying to get anything out of MitD).

    And even:
    5. MitD's species can cast Wish or has an essentially equivalent power, but Redcloak is not aware of this even though he knows what MitD is (there's no guarantee that MitD appears in any of Redcloak's MMs, or even that he's a D&D monster).

    edit: partially ninja'd by edit
    On the surface I like this chain of thought. But as a counter-argument Redcloak might have the idea that Wish is a tricky spell in the best of circumstances. He believes all of the other gods created a world that subjugates goblins. He could suspect that whatever forces grant the wishes might be even more uptight about how he words it.

    Obviously that is pure speculation. This is a comic, not a book where we can see thoughts. Even if Redcloak thought about this we weren't going to get a scene where he talks to himself about it. He might have talked to Jirix or his brother but such a scene wouldn't really advance the plot much. If it matters we might get something in an Epilogue where he reminisces about his choices or life when being judged but I wouldn't count on it.

    I would like to state though that I find the idea of 'red herrings' laughably ridiculous. I expect that in retrospect every interaction will make exactly the same sense as if the MITD was not in the dark* but everyone except Redcloak just didn't know what it was.**

    * Of course not anything referencing him not being seen/in the dark but I hope my point is otherwise clear.

    ** The obvious caveat being that if he is bizarre/grotesque/random looking it would be commented on. But
    - The goblins/hobgoblins have probably seen him and reacted like Right-Eye's family or 'whatever'
    - Ditto with the bugbears that might want to see
    - OOTS are a band of PC adventurers and would get over it quickly.
    - Miko just viewed him as a servant of evil and wouldn't care
    - O-Chul sees the person inside and wouldn't care
    - Serini wouldn't care
    - I can't remember off the top of my head who else would have seen him but I think I'm belaboring the point

    It might be lampshaded if necessary for the story/situation (e.g. the references to his 4 Edition version in SSaDT) but not outright contradictory. More explicitly if Redcloak said to him 'but you can't fly' he's not going to be revealed to be something that could fly. So I'll take it as given he can't raise dead in any way that's useful to Redcloak.

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If he was aware that just wishing for things can make them happen, then not only would be it odd for him to try to replicate it later on (to no avail), but it would also be the author straight-up lying when he said the MitD discovered powers be didn't even know he had when he saved O-Chul.
    I don't have much to back this up but it gave me the feeling that a 1 Wish Per Year (or some time period) makes sense for this and his attempts to replicate it were too soon. Occasionally throughout his life something he wanted would just happen but he didn't know why and generally didn't 'want' things enough for it the trigger a Wish. Admittedly a little stretchy but it feels plausible.
    Last edited by Throknor; Today at 11:19 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #313
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    Default Re: MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

    Re: the 5 Levels of Cleric scene, I just realized the close-to-thread-consensus position that MitD is a creature type that cannot Animate Dead without first gaining five levels of cleric is even stronger when you consider that Redcloak would most definitely not answer like that if he wasn't 100% sure.

    In other words, the argument that Redcloak may not know everything there is to know about MitD requires 1) that Redcloak would fail to use that already-demonstrated access to monster manuals and everything else such as real-world chemistry, which is already not plausible, but ALSO 2) that Redcloak would behave like he knows something for sure, when he doesn't.

    If Redcloak genuinely didn't know whether MitD can Animate Dead or not, it's guaranteed he wouldn't have said what he said.
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