MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

[lio45]

I don't think this is as complicated as you are making it sound.

Redcloak doesn't take Mitd seriously, a recurring trend.
Because he doesn't take Mitd seriously, he mocks the notion MitD can animate dead when the Mitd claims as such.
Whether or not MitD can actually animate dead or not is irrelevant to the scene as a whole.

Completely disagree. There’s a clear difference between “buzz off, I don’t trust at all that you can be helpful regardless of how much you try” and “you can’t help me with this specific task unless you’ve gained several levels of cleric in the last few minutes”.

[Squire Doodad]

Completely disagree. There’s a clear difference between “buzz off, I don’t trust at all that you can be helpful regardless of how much you try” and “you can’t help me with this specific task unless you’ve gained several levels of cleric in the last few minutes”.

Indeed, if MitD had caster levels - whether or not he had Animate Dead on his list - Redcloak would have an entirely different insult. "Unless you picked up the Death Domain since last night", for one.
And, from an Doylist standpoint, Redcloak would probably be in a different scenario altogether if MitD actually had caster levels and/or could animate dead.

I took Oona saying that he is small and will grow as indicating she's seen a mature specimen. And I did have the timeline reversed on O Chul's knowledge, so that point no longer stands, and I'll cheerfully concede it. Not gonna get mad at anyone with any theory about MitD, it's supposed to be a mystery.

If MitD is a protean, I wonder if he knows he is capable of taking on multiple forms and gaining extraordinary abilities? He can't see himself, does he even know he changes size and shape?

1) Oona could have seen a mature specimen or could be assuming he's going to grow since he's immature, we're not sure.
It's also not impossible that she mistook him for something else entirely, but that's not really affecting any judgement calls we can make.

2) I think MitD would be aware he is able to take on multiple forms, but not that he can get abilities from them. In this scenario, I'd assume RC thinks he's too incompetent to make proper use of this, and may well have explained it in intricate detail off-screen before giving up entirely as MitD did not understand a moment of it.

[3Power]

It's only irrelevant if we assume that the scene isn't meant to prove that MitD can't animate dead and thus provide a clue as to what sort of creature he is. You have not provided any reason why we should make that assumption.

A. Burden on proof would be on you as the one making the claim the scene is intended as a hint. I have no obligation to prove it is not a hint.

Completely disagree. There’s a clear difference between “buzz off, I don’t trust at all that you can be helpful regardless of how much you try” and “you can’t help me with this specific task unless you’ve gained several levels of cleric in the last few minutes”.

Wow, everyone is so busy around here lately.
Yes, well that's because unlike you some of us have the capacity to contribute to our cause.
...
Now shoo, go bug someone else for a bit.
G'way kid! Ya bother me!

I removed all the the "you can’t help me with this specific task unless you’ve gained several levels of cleric in the last few minutes" part of the dialogue and I still see plenty of "buzz off, I don’t trust at all that you can be helpful regardless of how much you try" left in the scene.

Indeed, if MitD had caster levels - whether or not he had Animate Dead on his list - Redcloak would have an entirely different insult. "Unless you picked up the Death Domain since last night", for one.
And, from an Doylist standpoint, Redcloak would probably be in a different scenario altogether if MitD actually had caster levels and/or could animate dead.

Or, Redcloak just doesn't believe MitD can animate dead and 5 levels in cleric just happens to be the fastest method for any given creature to gain that ability.

[Crusher]

A. Burden on proof would be on you as the one making the claim the scene is intended as a hint. I have no obligation to prove it is not a hint.



I removed all the the "you can’t help me with this specific task unless you’ve gained several levels of cleric in the last few minutes" part of the dialogue and I still see plenty of "buzz off, I don’t trust at all that you can be helpful regardless of how much you try" left in the scene.

Or, Redcloak just doesn't believe MitD can animate dead and 5 levels in cleric just happens to be the fastest method for any given creature to gain that ability.

You know that RC doesn't just arbitrarily underestimate MitD, right? RC was initially really impressed at how powerful MitD was, and he's actually fairly respectful of MitD during SoD. But by the time the main story occurs, *decades* have elapsed and RC has dramatically downgraded his estimate of MitD's value and capabilities.

This also means RC, being a high level cleric with a nerdy interest in science and a familiarity with AD&D source books, had a LOT of time to figure out MitD's species and capabilities. The point being, it would be wildly out of character for RC to just forget that MitD had cleric levels, for example.

[InvisibleBison]

A. Burden on proof would be on you as the one making the claim the scene is intended as a hint. I have no obligation to prove it is not a hint.

The Giant said that he's been dropping hints as to MitD's identity ever since he decided what MitD is. Thus, any specific information the comic provides about MitD or his capabilities is a hint as to his identity, unless there's some compelling reason to think otherwise. Do you have such a reason to think this scene is not a hint, or are you just assuming that it isn't a hint because it being a hint is problematic for your preferred solution?

[3Power]

You know that RC doesn't just arbitrarily underestimate MitD, right? RC was initially really impressed at how powerful MitD was, and he's actually fairly respectful of MitD during SoD. But by the time the main story occurs, *decades* have elapsed and RC has dramatically downgraded his estimate of MitD's value and capabilities.

This is true.

This also means RC, being a high level cleric with a nerdy interest in science and a familiarity with AD&D source books, had a LOT of time to figure out MitD's species and capabilities. The point being, it would be wildly out of character for RC to just forget that MitD had cleric levels, for example.

This is fanon. You are taking one character trait of Redcloak and overextending it to the point where it dominates the character in your mind. If you take a step back and look at canon Redcloak's interactions with the Mitd, you'll see that it's dominated by disinterest.

The Giant said that he's been dropping hints as to MitD's identity ever since he decided what MitD is. Thus, any specific information the comic provides about MitD or his capabilities is a hint as to his identity unless there's some compelling reason to think otherwise. Do you have such a reason to think this scene is not a hint, or are you just assuming that it isn't a hint because it being a hint is problematic for your preferred solution?

There is enough uncertainty involved that I am not comfortable with people using Redcloak's sarcastic statement as an automatic disqualifier.

My GUT feeling concerning this scene is that it was not written with the intent of providing any hint but overanalysis has given it a secondary meaning it was never meant to have.
In fact I think if it had any long term goal in mind, it was to reinforce two ideas:
1. Redcloak is very busy and has no time for Mitd's nonsense anymore, a new dynamic that really starts with this scene (and the bonus strips that were added later).
2. MitD is a tough monster, not a spellcaster. He can't cast animate dead. He punches Miko through a wall. He stomps an earthquake. He casts... wish? Whaaaat? It's setup for the herring.

[Jervis]

On a bit of a tangent I’ve been thinking about the circus scene a lot lately. Anyone know enough about ADnD 1/2e to know which books have monsters with charisma scores? I know deities and demigods (which isn’t all gods, some monsters and heroes too) has it but it’s been forever since I picked up any 1/2e book. If I knew which ones had monsters with listed charisma scores I could search through those for some unupdated monsters with negative charisma. Yes I am operating under the idea that MitD was using 2e rules during the circus scene, maybe still does, and as such lacked a will save and had negative charisma, giving him bonuses with evil creatures. They would probably still think he was ugly, but in a awesome way. Using 2e rules might explain things like sending Miko through walls as well since those early dnd was more rules light.

[InvisibleBison]

There is enough uncertainty involved that I am not comfortable with people using Redcloak's sarcastic statement as an automatic disqualifier.

So we can't interpret this scene as being meant as a hint because its meaning is uncertain, and its meaning is uncertain because it's not meant as a hint. I don't think there's any point in continuing this discussion.

[Crusher]

This is fanon. You are taking one character trait of Redcloak and overextending it to the point where it dominates the character in your mind. If you take a step back and look at canon Redcloak's interactions with the Mitd, you'll see that it's dominated by disinterest.

No. RC's interactions with MitD *during the central part of the story* are dominated by disinterest. RC's overall interactions with MitD started *decades* before the main part of the story, we saw the beginning of the interactions in Start of Darkness, and The Giant showed RC being very interested in MitD and respectful of him during that period.

Decades passed during which RC and MitD spent time together. most of which we don't see. When we rejoin them RC is at a minimum disinterested in MitD and borderline contemptuous of him. RC didn't start out underestimating MitD. He *gradually learned to* based on spending decades of watching MitD in action, failing to live up to his potential.

Additionally, RC spending a small bit of those decades figuring out MitD's abilities isn't fanon, its absolute common sense. The opposite, RC spending decades with a gigantically powerful creature he considered to have real potential to further RC's driving life-long goal, and never bothering to figure out what MitD was or what it could do, utterly flies in the face of how RC has been characterized during the stories.

[lio45]

I removed all the the "you can’t help me with this specific task unless you’ve gained several levels of cleric in the last few minutes" part of the dialogue and I still see plenty of "buzz off, I don’t trust at all that you can be helpful regardless of how much you try" left in the scene.

But you don’t get to remove that part. It’s there whether you want it or not.

“No, Bob, you can’t help me move: you’re incompetent and lazy and I don’t trust you to not mess things up”

vs

“No, Bob, you can’t possibly be of any help for my moving, seeing that you’re a quadriplegic in a wheelchair, no matter how hard you tried”

It can be BOTH (the quadriplegic can also happen to be an incompetent; or he could be Stephen Hawking; in either case, still useless to help you move furniture), but the important part is that if the reason Bob gets told his help isn’t needed because he’s in a wheelchair, you can’t alter that to “well, it’s well known that Bob is too incompetent to be helpful anyway, so I’m going to choose to assume he’s able-bodied and just useless”. It flies in the face of the story.

Redcloak is a highly intelligent nerd who has access to all the information there is to know even beyond the fourth wall, and he knows what MitD is; that scene tells us that MitD can’t cast cleric spells just as clearly and safely as the Tower Scene tells us that MitD is physically super powerful and the Circus Scene tells us that MitD is exotic-looking.

[hroþila]

It's not really one or the other is it. Redcloak was 100% dismissive of the possibility that the MitD might be able to make himself useful in any way whatsoever before animating the dead was even mentioned. But that doesn't make the MitD actually being useful any more likely, does it. Sure, it is not literally impossible that Redcloak is wrong about the MitD's latent necromancer abilities, and that this is one of those powers the MitD himself doesn't know he has and can't control. And I fundamentally agree that the opinions of other characters about what the MitD is and what his abilities are are always going to be problematic because, even when it's obvious to me that Redcloak is meant to be very reliable on MitD stuff, the theoretical possibility that the character is wrong always exists. But for this scene in particular this is all super shakey and the logic involved is kinda circular, yeah.

(Funny thing, at the time I thought the ending of that strip was foreshadowing and that somehow those blinded hobgoblins who needed a shade and the MitD's failure to provide it would be relevant at some point)

[lio45]

Sure, but while at it, we might as well say “the theoretical possibility that Rich is cheating always exists”.

One of the few assumptions we’re all making in this thread is that Rich is honest, that it’s possible to guess, and that clues that are clearly obvious clues aren’t total red herrings even when they “theoretically could be”.

[3Power]

So we can't interpret this scene as being meant as a hint because its meaning is uncertain, and its meaning is uncertain because it's not meant as a hint. I don't think there's any point in continuing this discussion.

If you want to bow out of the discussion that's fine, but that is not an accurate summary of the discussion. The uncertainty stems from the fact that we have two unreliable characters making statements. MitD is probably lying about being able to help out with animate dead in order to make himself seem helpful, while redcloak is so convinced of Mitd's uselessness that he is unwilling to entertain the idea.

No. RC's interactions with MitD *during the central part of the story* are dominated by disinterest. RC's overall interactions with MitD started *decades* before the main part of the story, we saw the beginning of the interactions in Start of Darkness, and The Giant showed RC being very interested in MitD and respectful of him during that period.

Decades passed during which RC and MitD spent time together. most of which we don't see. When we rejoin them RC is at a minimum disinterested in MitD and borderline contemptuous of him. RC didn't start out underestimating MitD. He *gradually learned to* based on spending decades of watching MitD in action, failing to live up to his potential.

Additionally, RC spending a small bit of those decades figuring out MitD's abilities isn't fanon, its absolute common sense. The opposite, RC spending decades with a gigantically powerful creature he considered to have real potential to further RC's driving life-long goal, and never bothering to figure out what MitD was or what it could do, utterly flies in the face of how RC has been characterized during the stories.

First, the argument that "all this stuff definitely happened offscreen because it makes sense for it to have." Is pure fanon. Scripts or it didn't happen.

Second, have you considered that he did research the MitD during year 1, lost interest in him afterwards and then gradually forgot all the details he researched? He refers to him as " you...thing in the box!" in the climax of SoD. There's no in story reason for him to forget MitD's species if he has been thoroughly studying him for decades.

And yeah, I know, preserving the mystery.

Third, Redcloak thought MitD could be helpful during a time where he was back at rock-bottom, working on the plan all on his own because Xykon had gone off somewhere. There's a Japanese phrase that translates as "Willing to have even a cat lend a hand," used when you're so busy or otherwise desperate that you would accept help from anyone. The only time Redcloak thought MitD might have some use was when Xykon wasn't around.

*snip*

It's not really one or the other is it. Redcloak was 100% dismissive of the possibility that the MitD might be able to make himself useful in any way whatsoever before animating the dead was even mentioned. But that doesn't make the MitD actually being useful any more likely, does it. Sure, it is not literally impossible that Redcloak is wrong about the MitD's latent necromancer abilities, and that this is one of those powers the MitD himself doesn't know he has and can't control. And I fundamentally agree that the opinions of other characters about what the MitD is and what his abilities are are always going to be problematic because, even when it's obvious to me that Redcloak is meant to be very reliable on MitD stuff, the theoretical possibility that the character is wrong always exists. But for this scene in particular this is all super shakey and the logic involved is kinda circular, yeah.

(Funny thing, at the time I thought the ending of that strip was foreshadowing and that somehow those blinded hobgoblins who needed a shade and the MitD's failure to provide it would be relevant at some point)

Yep.

Sure, but while at it, we might as well say “the theoretical possibility that Rich is cheating always exists”.

The possibility that a reader's interpretation of a scene differs from the author's always exists. It's a good idea to leave a little wiggle room for possibilities.

[lio45]

… while redcloak is so convinced of Mitd's uselessness that he is unwilling to entertain the idea.

Again, and I’m really just restating what was said already, the reason Redcloak is unwilling to entertain the idea that MitD can Raise Dead is that Redcloak knows MitD doesn’t have the required cleric levels.

It’s not “you can’t help me because I’m sure you’re too incompetent to be helpful”, it’s “you cannot possibly help with this task because you don’t have the specific ability needed”.

Had Redcloak’s wording been your cherry-picked version (where it’s only “buzz off, you useless incompetent”), then yes, I’d fully agree with you that we can’t conclude MitD can’t be a powerful cleric just because RC believes MitD can’t help with raising dead.

But the wording makes it clear that the problem isn’t that MitD is always useless, it’s that MitD just doesn’t have the cleric levels needed to Raise Dead, period.

[catagent101]

I think we should also keep in mind Redcloak's preferences here as well, we know from his various actions in comic that he puts the Lawful in Lawful Evil and likes his stuff orderly with no loose ends (like in the case of his scheme to reobtain Xykon's phylactery). Somebody not in control of their own powers like MitD would be useless to him because that's at odds with how he operates. If anything, MitD being powerful is probably a liability in Redcloak's eyes because that broadens the range of things MitD could screw up (like potentially breaking Xykon's phylactery) and it also means that Redcloak will not necessarily be the one in control of any plan that involves MitD (I don't think any of the monsters we are considering can just be disintegrated away if they become a problem). MitD does not have to be objectively useless, just useless in Redcloak's opinion, and there is no need for Redcloak to be poorly informed about MitD's ability to have that opinion.

[lio45]

Again, I think everyone in here is in full agreement: Redcloak finds MitD incompetent and useless.

But that’s an entirely separate question from whether or not MitD could Raise Dead. We have Word-of-Redcloak that he’d need a to earn five levels in cleric before he could think of helping with that specific task.

[Shining Wrath]

I find it extremely unlikely that after decades of traveling together that RedCloak, given his portrayed "nerd" personality, doesn't know exactly what species MitD belongs to. Also, in furtherance of his obsession and his deity's command, he would want to keep MitD's capabilities in mind.

Hypothesis: MitD is an immature member of his species, does not demonstrate all the power a mature member would posses, and that accounts for Redcloak's patronizing and / or dismissive treatment.

Further hypothesis: Clerics and Sorcerers do not get many skill points per 3.5 rules. Now consider that 3.5 allows for 10 different specialties for the knowledge skill. Redcloak might get more from a higher intelligence, but it's unlikely Xykon does.

So - what if a turning point of the plot will be that the Order, due to Rogue skill points and / or Roy's high Intelligence score, know more about MitD's species than Team Evil? Who, being evil, have never really cared to learn much about MitD other than "potentially powerful"?

[Ruck]

But you don’t get to remove that part. It’s there whether you want it or not.

That's the rub, isn't it?

3Power's arguments have consistently involved removing evidence, ignoring evidence, or arguing that evidence means the opposite of the most obvious interpretation. He started with a conclusion and is trying to make the facts fit it.

[3Power]

Again, and I’m really just restating what was said already, the reason Redcloak is unwilling to entertain the idea that MitD can Raise Dead is that Redcloak knows MitD doesn’t have the required cleric levels.

It’s not “you can’t help me because I’m sure you’re too incompetent to be helpful”, it’s “you cannot possibly help with this task because you don’t have the specific ability needed”.

Had Redcloak’s wording been your cherry-picked version (where it’s only “buzz off, you useless incompetent”), then yes, I’d fully agree with you that we can’t conclude MitD can’t be a powerful cleric just because RC believes MitD can’t help with raising dead.

But the wording makes it clear that the problem isn’t that MitD is always useless, it’s that MitD just doesn’t have the cleric levels needed to Raise Dead, period.

No, the wording makes it clear that Redcloak considers MitD incapable of contributing to their cause(Panel 1) before MitD even brings up the idea of him helping to animate the dead. (Panel 3) Redcloak then mocks the idea (Panel 4 & 5) and then tells him to get lost. (Panel 6)

I think we should also keep in mind Redcloak's preferences here as well, we know from his various actions in comic that he puts the Lawful in Lawful Evil and likes his stuff orderly with no loose ends (like in the case of his scheme to reobtain Xykon's phylactery). Somebody not in control of their own powers like MitD would be useless to him because that's at odds with how he operates. If anything, MitD being powerful is probably a liability in Redcloak's eyes because that broadens the range of things MitD could screw up (like potentially breaking Xykon's phylactery) and it also means that Redcloak will not necessarily be the one in control of any plan that involves MitD (I don't think any of the monsters we are considering can just be disintegrated away if they become a problem). MitD does not have to be objectively useless, just useless in Redcloak's opinion, and there is no need for Redcloak to be poorly informed about MitD's ability to have that opinion.

True, but consider this: Why is red-cloak asking Mitd how he could contribute if he already knows everything he can do by heart?

[Thermophille]

True, but consider this: Why is red-cloak asking Mitd how he could contribute if he already knows everything he can do by heart?

{Scrubbed} this is a rhetorical question, where the asker does not expect an answer either because one wouldn't make sense or because both parties know the answer since it's obvious.

Redcloak is asking how MitD could help because both of them know that he can't. When MitD BS's a reason why, RC immediately follows up (with another rhetorical question, I might add) the previous implication by saying that MitD indeed cannot create undead.

{Scrubbed}

[3Power]

But this is a rhetorical question, where the asker does not expect an answer either because one wouldn't make sense or because both parties know the answer since it's obvious. Redcloak is asking how MitD could help because both of them know that he can't. When MitD BS's a reason why, RC immediately follows up (with another rhetorical question, I might add) the previous implication by saying that MitD indeed cannot create undead.

The two panels where Redcloak asks what Mitd can do, and tells him what he is on his way to do, are the only two panels in which Redcloak does not have annoyed eyebrows. He appears momentarily interested in how MitD can help, only to become once again annoyed when the answer is not something he believes can be true. Also, animating the dead is redcloak's shtick, and he probably resents the implication that it is as easy as Mitd makes it sound.

So no, "Oh? Like how?" does not read like a rhetorical question. It reads like a genuine question that received a (to him) ridiculous answer.

[InvisibleBison]

The two panels where Redcloak asks what Mitd can do, and tells him what he is on his way to do, are the only two panels in which Redcloak does not have annoyed eyebrows. He appears momentarily interested in how MitD can help, only to become once again annoyed when the answer is not something he believes can be true. Also, animating the dead is redcloak's shtick, and he probably resents the implication that it is as easy as Mitd makes it sound.

So no, "Oh? Like how?" does not read like a rhetorical question. It reads like a genuine question that received a (to him) ridiculous answer.

If Redcloak is sincerely asking MitD if he could help, doesn't that contradict your earlier assertion that this comic is an example of Redcloak undervaluing and underestimating MitD?

[3Power]

If Redcloak is sincerely asking MitD if he could help, doesn't that contradict your earlier assertion that this comic is an example of Redcloak undervaluing and underestimating MitD?

No.

Panel 1: Undervaluing and Underestimating. There is no way you can help.
Panel 2: Genuine Question. Oh you think you can help? How?
Panel 3: Redcloak states what he is going to do (animate dead) Mitd says he can do that too.
Panel 4-6: Redcloak finds the idea ridiculous, back to undervaluing and underestimating. No consideration of whether it might be true. Tells him to get lost.

[Joerg]

I don't see Rich writing the scene like that if MitD can in fact create zombies. We don't know whether it can and it is a guessing game; Rich wants to give hints, not false leads.

[Shining Wrath]

It also seems a little strange to me that if MitD is from a species that can cast Wish, that that fact would have escaped RedCloak's notice.

[Fyraltari]

It also seems a little strange to me that if MitD is from a species that can cast Wish, that that fact would have escaped RedCloak's notice.

Nothing says it does. In fact the escape scene, which people often point to as the reason the MitD can use wish, seems purposely structured so that Redcloak is out of the room when the MitD saves the day.

[lio45]

It also seems a little strange to me that if MitD is from a species that can cast Wish, that that fact would have escaped RedCloak's notice.

Addressed in Section 1j of the first post:

Section 1j: Suspicion of MitD's involvement in the escape

Why wasn't MitD suspected for the escape beyond the demon roaches? RC, the resident know-it-all and most likely to connect the dots was not present for the escape - he used Word of Recall and only returned once the action was over. We also do not know how much Xykon knows about MitD. We only have MitD's word that Xykon knows what he is, and even then, given Xykon's attitude towards book knowledge, he probably only knows MitD's species name and the fact that he is strong, and thus powerful (power is all Xykon cares about). If so, Xykon would not know MitD can teleport, and likely thinks him too incompetent (and too asleep) to be responsible. All in all, the scene seems carefully orchestrated so that MitD could save O-Chul and V without giving himself away.

I don't see Rich writing the scene like that if MitD can in fact create zombies. We don't know whether it can and it is a guessing game; Rich wants to give hints, not false leads.

Exactly. Honestly, if MitD turns out to be a creature that has 5+ levels of Cleric and that can Animate Dead, I'll consider Rich to be a cheater/liar. He's on record saying it's possible to guess, and that sort of deliberate red herring would violate the implicit rules of the guessing game.

No.

Panel 1: Undervaluing and Underestimating. There is no way you can help.
Panel 2: Genuine Question. Oh you think you can help? How?

There's a contradiction there; if you're convinced the other person is useless, the "okay, how exactly do you think you can help?" is 100% rhetorical, as Thermophille pointed out.

[Algeh]

"Powers he doesn't know he has", which applies to pretty much every creature. Although I'll point out that detect thoughts has been offered as an explanation for both the ritual knowledge and the escape destination, and it's not like he'd have much reason to use the others (how many locked doors has he needed to Knock open?), or in some cases, we couldn't possibly tell if he had.

This inspired me to go re-read the description of the 3.5 Knock spell, which I hadn't done in quite a while.

The knock spell opens stuck, barred, locked, held, or arcane locked doors. It opens secret doors, as well as locked or trick-opening boxes or chests. It also loosens welds, shackles, or chains (provided they serve to hold closures shut). If used to open a arcane locked door, the spell does not remove the arcane lock but simply suspends its functioning for 10 minutes. In all other cases, the door does not relock itself or become stuck again on its own. Knock does not raise barred gates or similar impediments (such as a portcullis), nor does it affect ropes, vines, and the like. The effect is limited by the area. Each spell can undo as many as two means of preventing egress.

Knock actually seems like a downside to the Protean, since Knock would have worked to get him out of the box the SBGH put him in, as well as the cage at the circus (and possibly the box he was in in Azure City/Gobbotopia, although it's not clear that it was intended to actually keep him locked in - the bars over the opening point toward yes, but Xykon's "stay in the box" comment in #543 point toward the MitD being asked to stay in there rather than imprisoned in there, and no one seems surprised/concerned that he left the box when he's wandering around under his umbrella in #700 or in the strips following). Of course, since he doesn't know his own abilities and those were early on, it's quite possible that he just wasn't powerful enough or in need enough to use knock in those cases.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Knock actually seems like a downside to the Protean, since Knock would have worked to get him out of the box the SBGH put him in, as well as the cage at the circus

MitD could escape the circus box/SBGH box if he wanted to. Now, we do generally assume that means the box is too flimsy to contain someone capable of punching horses through walls, but it could actually be a reference to Knock trivializing escaping the box. What keeps him in the box is not any kind of lack of powers, but his politeness and desire to fit in.

GW

[Crusher]

This inspired me to go re-read the description of the 3.5 Knock spell, which I hadn't done in quite a while.



Knock actually seems like a downside to the Protean, since Knock would have worked to get him out of the box the SBGH put him in, as well as the cage at the circus (and possibly the box he was in in Azure City/Gobbotopia, although it's not clear that it was intended to actually keep him locked in - the bars over the opening point toward yes, but Xykon's "stay in the box" comment in #543 point toward the MitD being asked to stay in there rather than imprisoned in there, and no one seems surprised/concerned that he left the box when he's wandering around under his umbrella in #700 or in the strips following). Of course, since he doesn't know his own abilities and those were early on, it's quite possible that he just wasn't powerful enough or in need enough to use knock in those cases.

MitD, if it’s any of the FBS candidates but especially the Protean, could have walked through the box like it wasn’t there and more or less effortlessly slaughtered everyone in the circus before wandering away. MitD’s manners and personality are the reason he didn’t, not lack of power/abilities.