MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

[Shining Wrath]

Redcloak: Tell me what happened.
Jirix: Well, I heard some noise, so I came upstair tonsee what was up, I saw that the human had broken out of his cage so I yelled for Xykon but then he drove a metal pole through my chest and I died. Does that help?
Redcloak: Not much.


Some kind of contigency spell like the one Miron had? Or a less powerful caster hanging back during the whole battle for this kind of emergency? I don't know exactly how easy it is to teleport someone without touching them, but Dorukan could summon Lirian, so I guess it's theoritically possible.


True, and then reject it on the ground that A) the monster is allegedly on his side, B) Never does anything of his own initiative and 'ever does anything he's told to correctly and C) is believed by Team Evil to have slept through the entire fight.

We know that MitD can teleport people without touching them, to a place that so far as we know he'd never seen or heard of. That's *very* powerful. It's so powerful that we struggle to find an explanation other than Wish. Whatever MitD is, his species has some tremendously powerful magical or spell-like ability / abilities.
If Redcloak knows MitD can do that (the Escape), Redcloak would have suspected that MitD did do that. And also, there's got to be uses for, e.g., dropping a few goblin spies with Stones of Sending into suspected locations of Gates. If Redcloak knows that MitD has, or even might have, a powerful ability, Redcloak has had decades to experiment with and / or develop that ability.

Isn't it more likely that the arrogant evil person doesn't know what he thinks he knows, and that his hubris will be his undoing? Setting aside what the strip has told us about MitD, just from the overall tone of the story (e.g., Tarquin), isn't it likely that stubborn pride will lead to consequences?

EDIT: Consider the title for today's strip: "Certain Doom", about Redcloak being stubbornly wrong in a situation involving MitD. There's a real "hubris / retribution" situation being set up here.

[Crusher]

We know that MitD can teleport people without touching them, to a place that so far as we know he'd never seen or heard of. That's *very* powerful. It's so powerful that we struggle to find an explanation other than Wish. Whatever MitD is, his species has some tremendously powerful magical or spell-like ability / abilities.
If Redcloak knows MitD can do that (the Escape), Redcloak would have suspected that MitD did do that. And also, there's got to be uses for, e.g., dropping a few goblin spies with Stones of Sending into suspected locations of Gates. If Redcloak knows that MitD has, or even might have, a powerful ability, Redcloak has had decades to experiment with and / or develop that ability.

Isn't it more likely that the arrogant evil person doesn't know what he thinks he knows, and that his hubris will be his undoing? Setting aside what the strip has told us about MitD, just from the overall tone of the story (e.g., Tarquin), isn't it likely that stubborn pride will lead to consequences?

I think you're overstating things a bit. We know folks in the Stickverse can Teleport without direct touch because Wizard Guy (Shojo's wizard) isn't touching anyone else when he Teleports the party back from Cliffport. So regular Teleport is a possible answer.

Sure, Wish/etc is the best answer from *our* viewpoint, but that's because we know all the moving parts required to make everything turn out the way it did. But Xykon doesn't know all that. To him, they're just gone. From his perspective it could have been anything from Wish to Dimension Door. And since Xykon and RC both saw V teleport in, and through the wards at that, assuming V had a Teleport Contingency ready is kind of the obvious answer.

There is information Xykon *could* have passed onto RC that might have raised suspicion. Xykon does initially suspect that something else was afoot ("WHO STOLE MY KILLS?"), presumably because he thinks (correctly) that V was still paralyzed. But we don't know whether Xykon gave RC that clue. By the time RC got back, Xykon had redirected his anger into MOVING THE PROJECT ALONG *NOW* and wasn't in a mood to chat.

Its possible they discussed things later, but while its been 12 years since that strip, in world hasn't it only been maybe 6 weeks? And Xykon was gone building his Astral Plane fortress for a most of that so its possible they haven't discussed it. And even if they have, they'd have to get pretty far into the details before an answer other than "the elf probably had a Contingency Spell" would even be plausible.

Finally, I think the "RC confidently mis-identified MitD" theory is at least possible. Hypothetically speaking, lets say RC thought MitD was a Ha-Naga. But then after *decades* working with him to develop those massive magic powers to absolutely no avail, RC might have grudgingly, and erroneously, decided "Darn, maybe I was wrong and he's just an unusually big Dark Naga or something". MitD really WAS a Ha-Naga all along, but for presumably story-related reasons wasn't able to access his powers until the Escape Scene. I could see that being a reason for RC to underestimate MitD. I can't think of any specific candidates this would make more plausible, but if something were to come up I wouldn't dismiss the theory.

Edit - Ok, "finally" is supposed to be the end, but I have one more point. RC would be a LOT more willing to give up working on a creature when the ability in question is "some kind of Teleport" than if the ability was "Wish-related" because that's just gigantically less firepower. Plus, the next time we see MitD after the Escape Scene he specifically tries to Tell-a-pork (and, after the guard corrects him, "Teleport") the guard away. So, I'm thinking Teleport, combined with a way to know where to send O'chul and V, might in some ways be as good an answer as Wish. Less baggage, anyway, especially if it has limited uses.

Edit2 - This Sapphire Dragon idea is looking better.

[Jasdoif]

Huge. So, it’s pretty borderline but not completely out. I’m frustrated WotC seems to have buried its 3 -> 3.5 conversion pamphlet somewhere I can longer find because I really would like to see what DR 15/+2 turns into. It’s CR19.

File pack-rattery to the rescue!

Dragon, Sapphire: Dragon; Young adult 5/magic; Mature adult 10/magic; Very old 15/magic; Wyrm 20/magic; LA wyrmling: +2, very young: +3, young: +4, juvenile: +4; Refer to Monster Manual entry on true dragons for introductory material. Gem dragons have psionics, planar travel, and fire resistance 15, and otherwise conform to the Monster Manual. Increase Challenge Rating at each age category by +1. Skills: These skills are available to sapphire dragons at 1 skill point per rank: Climb, Jump, and Move Silently. These are in addition to the skills noted in the Monster Manual as class skills for all dragons. (This replaces the free ranks in Climb.)

[catagent101]

Also here's the archive link to the update booklets for anybody who wants to look at them.

[Peelee]

I think you're overstating things a bit. We know folks in the Stickverse can Teleport without direct touch because Wizard Guy (Shojo's wizard) isn't touching anyone else when he Teleports the party back from Cliffport. So regular Teleport is a possible answer.

Bog-standard teleport seems like it doesn't absolutely need touch so long as all passengers are within touch range, which is not the case for what MitD does. Wish is, IMO, hands down the best explanation for the Escape.

[Shining Wrath]

I think you're overstating things a bit. We know folks in the Stickverse can Teleport without direct touch because Wizard Guy (Shojo's wizard) isn't touching anyone else when he Teleports the party back from Cliffport. So regular Teleport is a possible answer.

Sure, Wish/etc is the best answer from *our* viewpoint, but that's because we know all the moving parts required to make everything turn out the way it did. But Xykon doesn't know all that. To him, they're just gone. From his perspective it could have been anything from Wish to Dimension Door. And since Xykon and RC both saw V teleport in, and through the wards at that, assuming V had a Teleport Contingency ready is kind of the obvious answer.

There is information Xykon *could* have passed onto RC that might have raised suspicion. Xykon does initially suspect that something else was afoot ("WHO STOLE MY KILLS?"), presumably because he thinks (correctly) that V was still paralyzed. But we don't know whether Xykon gave RC that clue. By the time RC got back, Xykon had redirected his anger into MOVING THE PROJECT ALONG *NOW* and wasn't in a mood to chat.

Its possible they discussed things later, but while its been 12 years since that strip, in world hasn't it only been maybe 6 weeks? And Xykon was gone building his Astral Plane fortress for a most of that so its possible they haven't discussed it. And even if they have, they'd have to get pretty far into the details before an answer other than "the elf probably had a Contingency Spell" would even be plausible.

Finally, I think the "RC confidently mis-identified MitD" theory is at least possible. Hypothetically speaking, lets say RC thought MitD was a Ha-Naga. But then after *decades* working with him to develop those massive magic powers to absolutely no avail, RC might have grudgingly, and erroneously, decided "Darn, maybe I was wrong and he's just an unusually big Dark Naga or something". MitD really WAS a Ha-Naga all along, but for presumably story-related reasons wasn't able to access his powers until the Escape Scene. I could see that being a reason for RC to underestimate MitD. I can't think of any specific candidates this would make more plausible, but if something were to come up I wouldn't dismiss the theory.

Edit - Ok, "finally" is supposed to be the end, but I have one more point. RC would be a LOT more willing to give up working on a creature when the ability in question is "some kind of Teleport" than if the ability was "Wish-related" because that's just gigantically less firepower. Plus, the next time we see MitD after the Escape Scene he specifically tries to Tell-a-pork (and, after the guard corrects him, "Teleport") the guard away. So, I'm thinking Teleport, combined with a way to know where to send O'chul and V, might in some ways be as good an answer as Wish. Less baggage, anyway, especially if it has limited uses.

Edit2 - This Sapphire Dragon idea is looking better.

I don't want to worry about what Xykon knows, and not too much about what Redcloak knows about the Escape.
We do know that MitD is unusual for a creature of his species, because the Stereotypical Big Game Hunters said so (in jungle, speaking Common). And we have reason to believe he's an immature specimen - his dad was a lot bigger, he seems to be on the verge of some sort of "growth".

Teleport spell description includes:

You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible.

When MitD teleported Vaarsuvius and O Chul, O Chul had no idea where Shojo and the rest of Azure City was. He could not possibly have given MitD a description, however vague. And V never spoke to MitD, and certainly didn't take the time to say where Shojo et al were.
In order for Teleport to work, we have to add that MitD has mind-reading abilities and could extract the desired destination from V's mind, without knowing he was doing it, and without V knowing he was doing it (at least, V has never mentioned it).
Do you suppose that if MitD was of a species that is known to read minds of high level wizards, Redcloak might put some effort into developing that ability? It might literally be a matter of life and death, given Xykon's.

So we have:
MitD is of a species that can both read minds and teleport
MitD is of a species that can wish or alter reality or similar

I don't see too many other options, and that's supported by 1b, where most of the other options have serious problems. In either case, Redcloak would be extremely interested in developing the power, even in an immature / lazy MitD.

I don't see MitD being capable of performing the Escape by virtue of species membership, Redcloak knowing of that level of power, and not investing effort into developing it. Maybe MitD can only do it when he really, really wants to (which matches WoG), and that's a clue ("Wish" capable, but only under stress). I still think it's more likely Redcloak is wrong.

While I'm at it, 1b mentions "Trace Teleport", but that would have sent O Chul & V back to V's home village, which is where V was prior to teleporting to Xykon's location. V performed the Familicide there prior to attacking Xykon. This may be a minor error.

[Crusher]

I don't want to get ahead of myself here, but the Sapphire Dragon, specifically an Ancient Sapphire Dragon, turned out to be a better candidate than I originally expected because I'd misread its MM2 entry and I didn't understand the Psion class well enough.

So, for your consideration, I present: Ancient Sapphire Dragon.

Overview
Its a powerful gem dragon with formidable psionic abilities. Its strong, versatile, and can make itself extremely difficult to damage (and has a ton of HP). Yes, its obviously a dragon, but its kinda wild looking because its scales shine blue and are incredibly reflective, "...they scintillate in *any* light, creating a cascade of ghostly glints along the walls." and by Ancient its eyes would be featureless glowing orbs (albeit blue). Its probably tied with the Crystal Dragon for being the strangest looking of the pure dragons.

Escape Scene - Piece of cake and it can handle it in multiple ways. First, it has Sense Psychoportation so it can detect any power or spell that allows instant transportation and it knows where the teleport came from and/or went to. It also has Psionic Teleport (usable once/day as an innate ability, separate from its Psionic abilities) that, at its caster level, allows it to Teleport up to 6 medium size creatures (or *2 Medium sized creatures PLUS a Huge creature*, this will be important in a minute) 1500 miles. Alternatively, it manifests powers as a 15th level Psion (specializing in Psychoportation, making it a "Nomad") giving it access to a variety of mind-reading and divination powers (such as Psionic Divination which "gives the caster useful advice about a specific course of action" like "Where's a safe place to Teleport my friend?") to find out where to send V and O'chul along with Psionic Greater Teleport which is like regular Teleport except no range limit and no chance of error (same number of targets). ALSO, it has access to Bend Reality which is sort of like Psionic Limited Wish and is probably enough to just hand-wave the whole thing.

Tower Scene - 33 STR which isn't great but is over the minimum, plus... you'll see in a second. 400 HP, AC42, DR 15/magic (which is honestly a little underwhelming. I was hoping for Epic since its CR21). Also, through its Psion casting it has access to Psionic Iron Body which gives it DR 15/Adamantine (a lot more formidable) AND gives it a +6 STR. It lasts for 15 minutes, so MitD could have cast this on itself when Miko tried to attack him and then didn't realize the +6 STR was still running when it came to the "lightest hit" game.

Circus Scene - So, its a really sparkly dragon with an accompanying light show plus Draconic Frightful Presence, maybe? Its weakest category.

Not an impossible category - Its a dragon that needs to eat and sleep.

Around before strip #100? - Published September 2002

Size/Strength requirement - Its Huge, so its definitely pushing the boundaries of what's possible but it isn't technically too big. Plus, if you allow for the Psionic Iron Body trick, it had a STR of 39 for the Tower Scene, meaning we could shrink it a size category and it'd still be strong enough. As noted, it has exactly enough caster power to teleport itself (assuming its Huge) plus 2 medium sized creatures... or, at least, it *could*, if it hasn't been Dimensionally Anchored.

Vulnerable to Mind Control - Its immune to sleep and paralysis effects (and electrical attacks, if that ever comes up) but it can be mind-controlled.

Pros:
- Always Lawful Neutral. Chaotic Neutral would have been better, but at least its not some sort of "Good".
- Voracious eater that "enjoys variety in its meals". Technically it can subsist on "elemental matter" whatever exactly that is but it likes regular food. Particularly enjoys eating spiders (not really a pro or con, just sort of interesting).
- Definitely has parents and could have parents in the Wyrm or Great Wyrm age categories which would be Gargantuan.
- Normally found in the Elemental Plane of Earth and when on the Prime Material Plane usually prefer deep dry caves and the Underdark. A jungle would be a weird place to find one.
- Only listed language that I could see was Draconic. Maybe they communicate telepathically? It does say they're anti-social and "not given to small talk".
- Doesn't specifically have "Swallow Whole", but it can have "Snatch" which allows it to automatically grapple a small enough target after a successful Bite attack and continue doing damage to it each round. It'd be reasonable for it to be able to eat a goblin.
- 20 INT and 21 WIS so it'd be very smart and pick up Go very quickly.
- Doesn't particularly like killing things. Prefers to terrify intruders with its breath weapon (which causes "panic" on a failed save in addition to damage) and then cast "Skates" on them to further freak them out *and* help them to leave faster at the same time. Which is kind of an amusing move combo if you think about it.
- Enjoys decorating its lair.
- Can innately and instantly travel between the Prime Material Plane and the Inner Planes as an (Su) ability, so it'd be be familiar with the Astral Plane.
- 352 skill points (plus 29 ranks in Climb) so it could be pretty amazing at a wide range of skills (such as Spellcraft, perhaps, to recognize half a ritual).

Cons:
- 20 DEX so its not particularly clumsy.
- Its really sparkly and has its own traveling light show, but its still clearly a dragon.
- Some fluff works (big eater, not a killer, kind of solitary) but some doesn't (incredibly covetous of gems and magic items, slightly paranoid about its hoard).
- No obvious explanation for its amnesia.
- Silhouette doesn't feel quite right, plus it should have blue eyes, not yellow.

I may be changing my guess. This feels like a strong case.

[dmc91356]

While I'm at it, 1b mentions "Trace Teleport", but that would have sent O Chul & V back to V's home village, which is where V was prior to teleporting to Xykon's location. V performed the Familicide there prior to attacking Xykon. This may be a minor error.

This is not true. V left from where the refugees were because they did not want to wait 10 minutes for a resurrection spell:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html

[Crusher]

Just fyi, I did some light editing to the Sapphire Dragon entry.

[Shining Wrath]

This is not true. V left from where the refugees were because they did not want to wait 10 minutes for a resurrection spell:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html

Oops, sorry. Point conceded.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes, Vaarsuvius was on the scene and could have conceivably have done something despite being paralyzed (Dimension Door with metamagic to cast silently, followed by a better spell to leave the area). You'd have to have V recover from paralysis enough to take an action at just the right moment, and without Xykon noticing the recovery while staring directly at his intended victim. It's pretty implausible.

Epic Word of Recall is perfectly plausible from RC's PoV. "V" had to be epic to come in, therefore could have any number of epic spells to get him out of dodge again. Yes, they had some indication that a lot of V's punch was from the hangers-on, but they didn't know how weak V was in reality. Heck, if they are at all aware of who is giving away dead souls to boost power, they could very plausibly conclude that the demons had pulled V out to prevent them from losing their investment.

We know that MitD can teleport people without touching them

&

Not-standard teleport seems like it doesn't absolutely need touch so long as all passengers are within touch range, which is not the case for what MitD does.

No, the ability to teleport without touching is NOT MitD's, it is clearly a feature of OotS. This guy is standing a good, what, 25 feet from Haley? And no, don't give me "but there is a chain of almost-touching from the teleport specialist to Haley". That's not a thing in the teleport spells, even if they were holding hands: range is touch - all of them should be standing within touching distance of the wizard, not strung along. So the more parsimonious rule is that teleport in OotS has a range far larger than touch (e.g. 5ft/level).

If Redcloak knows MitD can do that (the Escape), Redcloak would have suspected that MitD did do that. And also, there's got to be uses for, e.g., dropping a few goblin spies with Stones of Sending into suspected locations of Gates. If Redcloak knows that MitD has, or even might have, a powerful ability, Redcloak has had decades to experiment with and / or develop that ability.

RC has had years to learn that no matter what MitD species' could do, MitD can't. Suspecting him of having developed such skills just when he needed it due to emotional maturity is what is completely unbelievable for RC, who literally cannot emotionally mature.

When MitD teleported Vaarsuvius and O Chul, O Chul had no idea where Shojo and the rest of Azure City was. He could not possibly have given MitD a description, however vague. And V never spoke to MitD, and certainly didn't take the time to say where Shojo et al were.
In order for Teleport to work, we have to add that MitD has mind-reading abilities and could extract the desired destination from V's mind, without knowing he was doing it, and without V knowing he was doing it (at least, V has never mentioned it).

Or he aimed for a nice place, and got a lucky roll in the mishap table and ended in a "similar area".

Do you suppose that if MitD was of a species that is known to read minds of high level wizards, Redcloak might put some effort into developing that ability?

AFAIK, those abilities tend not to work on undead in any case; but even if it did, agin, RC has had years to give up on MitD altogether.

I don't see MitD being capable of performing the Escape by virtue of species membership, Redcloak knowing of that level of power, and not investing effort into developing it.

Well, I do see it. I see it perfectly. Because RC is a teenager with very little patience, and he's had decades to give up on MitD being capable of using his species' powers. There is no reason for him to suspect MitD had a hand in the escape because he wasn't there to witness it, V's potential powerset had plenty of options to get him out, Xykon immediately forgot about V due to the phylactery business, and thus any independent investigation by RC would not just be frowned upon but actively opposed, and ultimately, these kind of scry-and-fry attacks are a regular occurrence for Team Evil. From their perspective, this was only out of the ordinary in that it was somewhat succesful, and if RC thinks of it at all, I'm sure he thinks it as just a decently coordinated rescue that came with a few contingencies in case of Lich.

To us, it was a crucial moment in the story. To RC, it was just another Thursday at the office, remarkable only in that the phylactery almost got destroyed and he lost an eye due to it. But V's & the paladin's escape? That's not something RC would care about. Especially since he only cared about the latter so long as it delayed their departure, and if nothing else, the phylactery being lost gave him even more time.

Grey Wolf

[andowero]

It just occurred to me, that in the strip 1260 Xykon says: "dwarves were like a delicacy". I have been reading through d&d wikis and they use past tense for all entries. I have never read original d&d rules though. Do they also use past tense? Or does it mean that Giant read about his monster on similar medium?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Crusher/everyone else: my immediate read-through of the Sapphire Dragon gives me a "strong, but not FBS'" vibe, mostly on the circus grounds: dragons being plushies in OotS really penalizes them in my eyes when it comes to the "never seen anything like it" comment, and what pictures google spits out for Sapphire Dragons look pretty much like metallic dragons that no amount of shiny scales tips the balance for me. But it is close enough I'm ok with being overruled here. I don't, however, want a full formal vote on this, so if I could just get a few informal opinions with arguments? Just so I get a feeling to where we stand?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

It would be kind of odd if the mysterious "it" was something as recognizable as a dragon.

I think Rich would probably not hesitate to handwave that, though.

[Fyraltari]

If Redcloak knows MitD can do that (the Escape), Redcloak would have suspected that MitD did do that. And also, there's got to be uses for, e.g., dropping a few goblin spies with Stones of Sending into suspected locations of Gates. If Redcloak knows that MitD has, or even might have, a powerful ability, Redcloak has had decades to experiment with and / or develop that ability.

The last time Redcloak trusted the Monster in the Dark to do anything it was to lead a bunch of zombies into a castle. Instead he organized Taco Tuesday. I think Redcloak has long ago decided that the MitD might be powerful on paper, but is so utterly incompetent that there's no point in asking him to do anything and that he will never do anything more complicated that gulp down food on his own.

Isn't it more likely that the arrogant evil person doesn't know what he thinks he knows, and that his hubris will be his undoing? Setting aside what the strip has told us about MitD, just from the overall tone of the story (e.g., Tarquin), isn't it likely that stubborn pride will lead to consequences?

Redcloak is many thing but he's never struck me as proud. He's dedicated his life to the service of another (The Dark One), let Xykon and Tsukiko constantly walk over him for decades because it serves his purposes and is willing to die for his cause. His flaws are vengefulness and the inability to deal with his own guilt, but at the end of the day he's rather humble.

EDIT: Consider the title for today's strip: "Certain Doom", about Redcloak being stubbornly wrong in a situation involving MitD.

But, he's not wrong. Oona suggests the mark/monsters discrpancy might be due to the Monster in the Dark making an honest mistake and he says it's more likely to be due to someone acting against them. It is. It is a deliberate effort by someone to thwart their plans.

There's a real "hubris / retribution" situation being set up here.

How is this hybristic? Hybris is about thinking you can never be defeated in your chosen field, that you are the very best there is. It's not about being underestimating a co-worker.

[Shining Wrath]

Epic Word of Recall is perfectly plausible from RC's PoV. "V" had to be epic to come in, therefore could have any number of epic spells to get him out of dodge again. Yes, they had some indication that a lot of V's punch was from the hangers-on, but they didn't know how weak V was in reality. Heck, if they are at all aware of who is giving away dead souls to boost power, they could very plausibly conclude that the demons had pulled V out to prevent them from losing their investment.


&

No, the ability to teleport without touching is NOT MitD's, it is clearly a feature of OotS. This guy is standing a good, what, 25 feet from Haley? And no, don't give me "but there is a chain of almost-touching from the teleport specialist to Haley". That's not a thing in the teleport spells, even if they were holding hands: range is touch - all of them should be standing within touching distance of the wizard, not strung along. So the more parsimonious rule is that teleport in OotS has a range far larger than touch (e.g. 5ft/level).


RC has had years to learn that no matter what MitD species' could do, MitD can't. Suspecting him of having developed such skills just when he needed it due to emotional maturity is what is completely unbelievable for RC, who literally cannot emotionally mature.


Or he aimed for a nice place, and got a lucky roll in the mishap table and ended in a "similar area".


AFAIK, those abilities tend not to work on undead in any case; but even if it did, agin, RC has had years to give up on MitD altogether.


Well, I do see it. I see it perfectly. Because RC is a teenager with very little patience, and he's had decades to give up on MitD being capable of using his species' powers. There is no reason for him to suspect MitD had a hand in the escape because he wasn't there to witness it, V's potential powerset had plenty of options to get him out, Xykon immediately forgot about V due to the phylactery business, and thus any independent investigation by RC would not just be frowned upon but actively opposed, and ultimately, these kind of scry-and-fry attacks are a regular occurrence for Team Evil. From their perspective, this was only out of the ordinary in that it was somewhat succesful, and if RC thinks of it at all, I'm sure he thinks it as just a decently coordinated rescue that came with a few contingencies in case of Lich.

To us, it was a crucial moment in the story. To RC, it was just another Thursday at the office, remarkable only in that the phylactery almost got destroyed and he lost an eye due to it. But V's & the paladin's escape? That's not something RC would care about. Especially since he only cared about the latter so long as it delayed their departure, and if nothing else, the phylactery being lost gave him even more time.

Grey Wolf

Thanks for the detailed response.

1. Yes, V being enormously powerful explains the Escape from Xykon's / Redcloak's point of view. But not from ours, because we know V didn't do it, MitD did. I'm not trying to explain why Redcloak didn't suspect MitD when he wasn't there; I'm trying to explore why if MitD's species is known to be able to perform the Escape scene (any option of how you choose), that doesn't interest Redcloak.
2. It's not the Teleport without touching, it's the Teleport without going along that's interesting (per 1b), and that should interest Redcloak. Especially if it's coupled with "to a place you've never seen".
3. I stipulate that MitD is an unusual member of his species. That still doesn't mean Redcloak wouldn't try to develop and use a powerful ability. And back before Redcloak became contemptuous of MitD, we don't see him trying to develop or use those abilities. Why assign a being capable of Wish or Teleport but to a place you've never seen to guarding a village?
4. Redcloak being emotionally stunted would explain why he can't understand MitD undergoing personal growth, but it also explains why he wouldn't consider the possibility that MitD was a different species than his original identification. He's damaged goods, which cuts all sorts of ways.
5. Even if MitD can't read Xykon's mind, he could have read Tsukio's. Or O Chul's. Or whoever. It's an incredibly useful ability, and not something to casually ignore when you're literally on a mission from God important enough to murder your brother for.
6. Rolling well on the Teleport Mishap is a 9% chance for "similar area", and then a very, very small chance of "out of all the similar to 'nice' places on the planet, directly on top of your friends". I don't think that flies.
7. Again, I'm not trying to explore why Redcloak doesn't suspect MitD. I'm arguing that the person who kept on questioning O Chul after it was clear he didn't know anything about the other Gates, because he's Lawful and obsessed with success on his mission, wouldn't have given up on using the enormous quasi-magical power of MitD if he knew of it.

The question I'm posing is can we trust Redcloak's opinion of what MitD can and cannot do. And I think the answer is clearly "no". Further, I think it's entirely possible that he's misidentified MitD, and MitD can surprise Redcloak in a whole variety of ways.

Further argument: we suspect MitD is about to grow / change from his conversation with Xykon, which shouldn't surprise us because his Dad was a lot larger than MitD. If Redcloak knows MitD's species, then it follows he knows that such growth is possible. Why, if he knew a mature MitD might be capable of whatever mechanism enabled Escape, would he not be trying to bring that growth about? Why isn't Redcloak trying to feed MitD, or have him gain XP, or whatever?

That is, if Redcloak is frustrated with MitD because he can't do powerful stuff his species should be able to do; and Redcloak also knows that MitD is an immature member of his species that might plausibly gain those powers if he matured, do we not see Redcloak trying to get MitD to "level up"?

It still seems more plausible to me that Redcloak doesn't know what MitD can do, which means the MM entry he read was wrong, because he read the wrong stat block.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think Rich would probably not hesitate to handwave that, though.

I'm unsure how to read this? No-one forced Rich to add a guy in wizard robes among the public to deliver that line. He could have just, you know, not put it in. How would he handwave that? Making it a particularly non-dragonny looking Sapphire Dragon? FTR, if that is what you are proposing, we have an actual precedent: the reason the Zodar is not in the FBS is that it too fails this precise test without Rich handwaving it by significantly altering its standard looks. I'd be ok with applying the same standard to the Sapphire Dragon.

GW

[Crusher]

Crusher/everyone else: my immediate read-through of the Sapphire Dragon gives me a "strong, but not FBS'" vibe, mostly on the circus grounds: dragons being plushies in OotS really penalizes them in my eyes when it comes to the "never seen anything like it" comment, and what pictures google spits out for Sapphire Dragons look pretty much like metallic dragons that no amount of shiny scales tips the balance for me. But it is close enough I'm ok with being overruled here. I don't, however, want a full formal vote on this, so if I could just get a few informal opinions with arguments? Just so I get a feeling to where we stand?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

Yeah, that's reasonable. Its a little like the Zodar in that it its questionable whether it passes the FBS tests yet its easy to see it actually being the right answer in the end.

I can go either way. It has arguably the best answer(s) ever for the Escape Scene, it handles the Tower Scene pretty well (very well if you allow for Iron Body), and it maybe, barely gets over the line on the Circus Scene. If this ends of being correct, it's because The Giant *really* leaned into the "incredible light-show sparkle dragon" aspect and/or had the MitD be a severely maimed or deformed version.

I'm personally kinda fond of it because for some reason I've always thought MitD would be blinding and sparkling when it gets out of the dark (sort of the opposite of the Black Slaad answer of "MitD steps out of the shadows and is still just a big shadow") and put Prismasaurus as my #2 choice in my first ever set of guesses (I'd also been drinking) and this is a reason to continue that feeling.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes, V being enormously powerful explains the Escape from Xykon's / Redcloak's point of view. But not from ours, because we know V didn't do it, MitD did. I'm not trying to explain why Redcloak didn't suspect MitD when he wasn't there; I'm trying to explore why if MitD's species is known to be able to perform the Escape scene (any option of how you choose), that doesn't interest Redcloak.

Because he had bigger fish to fry than to investigate how an Epic teleport-capable wizard escaped a near-death moment. That is not a particularly impossible scenario in D&D, and there are dozens of answers, none of which push the Plan forward. An enemy came, fought Xykon, and escaped. It happens. There is nothing remarkable about it that would force RC to drop everything and investigate, much less suspect MitD had a hand in it, even if his species does have teleport or wish.

It's not the Teleport without touching, it's the Teleport without going along that's interesting (per 1b), and that should interest Redcloak. Especially if it's coupled with "to a place you've never seen".

He wouldn't go along if he had been hit by the conveniently cast and missed teleport lock V uses early in the fight. If anything, that allays the suspicion more than if MitD had Wish. All it would take is for RC not to notice MitD had been hit to completely rule MitD's teleport powers from having had a hand.

I stipulate that MitD is an unusual member of his species. That still doesn't mean Redcloak wouldn't try to develop and use a powerful ability. And back before Redcloak became contemptuous of MitD, we don't see him trying to develop or use those abilities. Why assign a being capable of Wish or Teleport but to a place you've never seen to guarding a village?

Because that being also can punch horses through walls? I really don't see what you think you are getting at here. MitD doesn't need to be capable of casting teleport for him to be immensely useful to a casting-focused cleric who already has ways of teleporting, but lacks muscle to back him up. MitD's teleport is not particularly impressive to a cleric capable of traversing the planes.

ETA: as to whether he gave up on MitD immediately or not, we have no way of knowing. We are not shown that in SoD. Maybe he spent a month trying to develop MitD, maybe a few years, maybe he gave up the next day in the face of Xykon having shanghaied/slaughtered his entire remaining family. We don't know.

Redcloak being emotionally stunted would explain why he can't understand MitD undergoing personal growth, but it also explains why he wouldn't consider the possibility that MitD was a different species than his original identification. He's damaged goods, which cuts all sorts of ways.

The problem with the latter is that it is extremelly implausible to confuse creatures. There are very few examples of creatures tht can reliably be confused for other creatures. And even fewer that fit the bill of powers. And even fewer that pass some of MitD's abilities but not others.

So yeah, all this theoretical speculation is exactly that: theoretical. maybe if you had some kind of pair of creatures attached? But you don't.

Even if MitD can't read Xykon's mind, he could have read Tsukio's. Or O Chul's. Or whoever. It's an incredibly useful ability, and not something to casually ignore when you're literally on a mission from God important enough to murder your brother for.

This holds no water. We know RC tried to figure out if psionics worked, we know he failed for years, we know he eventually found some goblin with mental reading powers. All that fits "MitD's species can read minds, MitD' cannot, RC tried and gave up".

Rolling well on the Teleport Mishap is a 9% chance for "similar area", and then a very, very small chance of "out of all the similar to 'nice' places on the planet, directly on top of your friends". I don't think that flies.

What are the chances of an imp summoning a 100-feet tall demon, again? And what was V's conclusion about probabilities and copper pieces?

Again, I'm not trying to explore why Redcloak doesn't suspect MitD. I'm arguing that the person who kept on questioning O Chul after it was clear he didn't know anything about the other Gates, because he's Lawful and obsessed with success on his mission, wouldn't have given up on using the enormous quasi-magical power of MitD if he knew of it.

But that's NOT why he kept questioning him. He kept questioning him because it gave him an excuse to stay in Gobbotopia despite Xykon's wishes.

The question I'm posing is can we trust Redcloak's opinion of what MitD can and cannot do. And I think the answer is clearly "no".

And I think your argument fails to establish that. And it certainly does not do so "clearly".

Further argument: we suspect MitD is about to grow / change from his conversation with Xykon, which shouldn't surprise us because his Dad was a lot larger than MitD. If Redcloak knows MitD's species, then it follows he knows that such growth is possible. Why, if he knew a mature MitD might be capable of whatever mechanism enabled Escape, would he not be trying to bring that growth about? Why isn't Redcloak trying to feed MitD, or have him gain XP, or whatever?

Because he has given up on MitD being anything other than dumb muscle. Please be aware nothing you have said in any way counters that simple, established fact. All you have is speculation on top of speculation hanging by a thread of RC somehow still being commited to turning MitD into a perfect killing machine, even though every interaction between them hows that RC is literally over trying to get MitD to do anything at all to help, and at this point it is only Xykon's drama sense that keeps MitD in the team.

That is, if Redcloak is frustrated with MitD because he can't do powerful stuff his species should be able to do; and Redcloak also knows that MitD is an immature member of his species that might plausibly gain those powers if he matured, do we not see Redcloak trying to get MitD to "level up"?

Because creatures grow not through XP but through ageing. And you can't rush that. And in the meantime, he can still punch horses through walls.

It still seems more plausible to me that Redcloak doesn't know what MitD can do, which means the MM entry he read was wrong, because he read the wrong stat block.

And I don't think that is plausible at all. I think your case simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

GW

[Peelee]

No, the ability to teleport without touching is NOT MitD's, it is clearly a feature of OotS.

I agree. That was a typo in my part, it was supposed to sya "bog-standard teleport".

Well, less a typo and more an autocorrupt, but still.

[Joerg]

If it's just a sparkly blue dragon, I don't think the circus scene fits. But if the light is dazzling, psychedelic, I can see it causing the reactions. The wizard could be explained by never having seen a dragon shine like that and the circus director is known to exaggerate.

[Jasdoif]

First, it has Sense Psychoportation so it can detect any power or spell that allows instant transportation and it knows where the teleport came from and/or went to.

I think you're confusing sense psychoportation for trace teleport. (It may be worth noting that 3.5's trace teleport is rather different from than 3.0's, such that it's no longer appropriate for this scenario)

[Kish]

I think the "this is weird" would go beyond that one wizard saying "I've never seen anything like it." I would expect the circus to announce him as "the Dragon," not as "the Mysterious It," for one thing.

But what I mean about handwaving, is that I could easily see Rich saying something like, "Yes, they all treated him as mysterious. Everyone with enough Knowledge: Arcana to know about dragons also knows they're supposed to have scales that are or aren't shiny as per their color coding, not appear to be made of gems."

[Ortho]

Crusher/everyone else: my immediate read-through of the Sapphire Dragon gives me a "strong, but not FBS'" vibe, mostly on the circus grounds: dragons being plushies in OotS really penalizes them in my eyes when it comes to the "never seen anything like it" comment, and what pictures google spits out for Sapphire Dragons look pretty much like metallic dragons that no amount of shiny scales tips the balance for me. But it is close enough I'm ok with being overruled here. I don't, however, want a full formal vote on this, so if I could just get a few informal opinions with arguments? Just so I get a feeling to where we stand?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

I'd say a sapphire dragon is close enough for inclusion. It's a disco ball in the shape of a dragon, "never seen anything like it" would be an appropriate reaction, in my opinion.

[Crusher]

I think you're confusing sense psychoportation for trace teleport. (It may be worth noting that 3.5's trace teleport is rather different from than 3.0's, such that it's no longer appropriate for this scenario)

I at least don't *think* so, I believe it has (or can have) both abilities. Sense Psychoportation is a racial ability it gets at a fairly young age, and then via its Psionics it at least can get Trace Teleport. That having been said, I tried to stay consistent with 3e versions of things but the Sapphire Dragon wasn't, afaik, updated for 3.5e which could cause some issues and its possible I missed something or made a mistake in the description.

[Sir_Norbert]

It just occurred to me, that in the strip 1260 Xykon says: "dwarves were like a delicacy". I have been reading through d&d wikis and they use past tense for all entries. I have never read original d&d rules though. Do they also use past tense? Or does it mean that Giant read about his monster on similar medium?

The full sentence is "Didn't I read someplace that dwarves were, like, a delicacy to your kind?" It's subjunctive present, not simple past.

[InvisibleBison]

I don't, however, want a full formal vote on this, so if I could just get a few informal opinions with arguments? Just so I get a feeling to where we stand?

I don't think the Sapphire Dragon is all that strong a candidate. For one thing, it completely fails the circus scene - a weirdly colored dragon would be billed as such, and there's no real explanation as for why it would produce such varied reactions. It's also too big; even if we posit that MitD is Large instead of Huge, the stats for dragons' physical dimensions in the Draconomicon are such that I'm skeptical he'd be able to squeeze inside the box or remain underneath the umbrella.

[Jasdoif]

I at least don't *think* so, I believe it has (or can have) both abilities. Sense Psychoportation is a racial ability it gets at a fairly young age, and then via its Psionics it at least can get Trace Teleport. That having been said, I tried to stay consistent with 3e versions of things but the Sapphire Dragon wasn't, afaik, updated for 3.5e which could cause some issues and its possible I missed something or made a mistake in the description.

Well, the racial (and more usefully, always active) sense psychoportation ability as described in MM2 (rather than the power in Psionics Handbook) would detect the casting of epic teleport and the location it was used from....If that location was within 100 feet + 10 feet per caster level of the teleporting effect. So, about caster level 318 per kilometer away, 518 per mile away....I suspect the intervening ocean is quite a big larger than either of those, resulting in a ludicrous requirement when considering that e.g. most(?) estimates of Xykon don't even break caster level 40.

It's true that (3.0) trace teleport is likely intended to be similar; but it talks about "the origination or destination of any teleportation made by others within the area", rather than specifying the use of the teleporting ability, so it's at least arguable. (The 3.5 revision is more focused, it's a "use it after a teleport happens to see the destination, so you can chase down things that teleport away" rather than a strategic buff that needs to be running when you're attacked to get the full effect).


In any event, if you're making a case for the sapphire dragon you should consider:

• The racial ability to use teleport, since it's gained automatically and isn't chosen, fits "powers that he didn't even know he had" more readily than a spell/power choice to do the same thing; and the 1/day limit means an attempt to recreate the event won't work if it's made on the same day
• The main gem dragon entry says "to most observers their psychic talents are indistinguishable from sorcery", so they don't have the same degree of issue with Redcloak not knowing if psionics were in use as other psionic-using creatures do.

[Crusher]

Well, the racial (and more usefully, always active) sense psychoportation ability as described in MM2 (rather than the power in Psionics Handbook) would detect the casting of epic teleport and the location it was used from....If that location was within 100 feet + 10 feet per caster level of the teleporting effect. So, about caster level 318 per kilometer away, 518 per mile away....I suspect the intervening ocean is quite a big larger than either of those, resulting in a ludicrous requirement when considering that e.g. most(?) estimates of Xykon don't even break caster level 40.

It's true that (3.0) trace teleport is likely intended to be similar; but it talks about "the origination or destination of any teleportation made by others within the area", rather than specifying the use of the teleporting ability, so it's at least arguable. (The 3.5 revision is more focused, it's a "use it after a teleport happens to see the destination, so you can chase down things that teleport away" rather than a strategic buff that needs to be running when you're attacked to get the full effect).


In any event, if you're making a case for the sapphire dragon you should consider:

• The racial ability to use teleport, since it's gained automatically and isn't chosen, fits "powers that he didn't even know he had" more readily than a spell/power choice to do the same thing; and the 1/day limit means an attempt to recreate the event won't work if it's made on the same day
• The main gem dragon entry says "to most observers their psychic talents are indistinguishable from sorcery", so they don't have the same degree of issue with Redcloak not knowing if psionics were in use as other psionic-using creatures do.

Oh, that's interesting. I took the ability to mean they can detect it from both ends, as it were. The arrival involved the power as well, and was certainly within range (interestingly the detection range is based on the caster level of the Teleport spell, which *might* have been super high level? Added together, they're at least in the 70s, right? I'm curious how that would have worked). That having been said, I misread the ability and thought it said "it is instantly aware of the direction and distance *of* the detected power" but it actually says "...distance *to* the detected power". So it tells you exactly where the teleport happened but not where it went to or came from, making it less useful.

And I agree that the racial Teleport is a much better fit than the various Psionic abilities for exactly the reason you list. Realizing it was once/day in my earlier long post was what made me think of the Sapphire Dragon as a potential FBS candidate.

As for Sorcery vs Psionic abilities... eh. We could argue to what degree its a plus or minus (because that's what we do), but its neither here nor there since it sinking or swimming as an FBS candidate will come down to whether people think its an "especially shiny blue dragon" or "DISCO LASER LIGHTSHOW DRAGON!".

[Shining Wrath]

Because he had bigger fish to fry than to investigate how an Epic teleport-capable wizard escaped a near-death moment. That is not a particularly impossible scenario in D&D, and there are dozens of answers, none of which push the Plan forward. An enemy came, fought Xykon, and escaped. It happens. There is nothing remarkable about it that would force RC to drop everything and investigate, much less suspect MitD had a hand in it, even if his species does have teleport or wish.


He wouldn't go along if he had been hit by the conveniently cast and missed teleport lock V uses early in the fight. If anything, that allays the suspicion more than if MitD had Wish. All it would take is for RC not to notice MitD had been hit to completely rule MitD's teleport powers from having had a hand.


Because that being also can punch horses through walls? I really don't see what you think you are getting at here. MitD doesn't need to be capable of casting teleport for him to be immensely useful to a casting-focused cleric who already has ways of teleporting, but lacks muscle to back him up. MitD's teleport is not particularly impressive to a cleric capable of traversing the planes.

ETA: as to whether he gave up on MitD immediately or not, we have no way of knowing. We are not shown that in SoD. Maybe he spent a month trying to develop MitD, maybe a few years, maybe he gave up the next day in the face of Xykon having shanghaied/slaughtered his entire remaining family. We don't know.


The problem with the latter is that it is extremelly implausible to confuse creatures. There are very few examples of creatures tht can reliably be confused for other creatures. And even fewer that fit the bill of powers. And even fewer that pass some of MitD's abilities but not others.

So yeah, all this theoretical speculation is exactly that: theoretical. maybe if you had some kind of pair of creatures attached? But you don't.


This holds no water. We know RC tried to figure out if psionics worked, we know he failed for years, we know he eventually found some goblin with mental reading powers. All that fits "MitD's species can read minds, MitD' cannot, RC tried and gave up".


What are the chances of an imp summoning a 100-feet tall demon, again? And what was V's conclusion about probabilities and copper pieces?


But that's NOT why he kept questioning him. He kept questioning him because it gave him an excuse to stay in Gobbotopia despite Xykon's wishes.


And I think your argument fails to establish that. And it certainly does not do so "clearly".


Because he has given up on MitD being anything other than dumb muscle. Please be aware nothing you have said in any way counters that simple, established fact. All you have is speculation on top of speculation hanging by a thread of RC somehow still being commited to turning MitD into a perfect killing machine, even though every interaction between them hows that RC is literally over trying to get MitD to do anything at all to help, and at this point it is only Xykon's drama sense that keeps MitD in the team.


Because creatures grow not through XP but through ageing. And you can't rush that. And in the meantime, he can still punch horses through walls.


And I don't think that is plausible at all. I think your case simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

GW

Let me begin with the obvious: if Redcloak thinks of MitD as "dumb muscle", then Redcloak is wrong about MitD; both "dumb" and "muscle" (in the sense of having no magic-like abilities) are false. Therefore you cannot argue that Redcloak's opinion as to what MitD can and cannot do is accurate. While attempting to refute me you have conceded one of my primary points; Redcloak's statements about MitD may be inaccurate, and should not be taken as definitive when trying to figure out his species.

So far as I recall the only creature type which gains new "levels" by simply aging is dragons, which form only one candidate class for MitD (and in my opinion, not a strong one). Other creatures "level up" in different ways; for example, fiends are promoted by higher level fiends on the basis of doing fiendish stuff. You haven't refuted the possibility that MitD could be "leveled up" by direct action of Redcloak, and we believe it's possible he's about to do so based on recent strips. Even if Redcloak believes MitD is "dumb muscle", he'd still want more muscle. But if Redcloak knows that members of MitD's species have magic-like powers, and that MitD doesn't have those powers, trying to "level up" makes sense.

If Redcloak is surprised by MitD "level up", then Redcloak doesn't know what MitD is. If his response is "about time", that's another story. We will see.