MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I also want to revisit the whole wizard vs Xykon knowledge check thing. That was likely a low level wizard. Assuming Xykon has arcana maxed, which we know he does because Epic Spellcasting, that means MitD is likely a species identified by a Knowledge Arcana check. That narrows it down to Constructs -which don’t work for reasons already well discussed- dragons, and magical beasts. He’s likely just so high a DC that the wizard couldn’t pass it.

I am extremely hesitant to put any kind of trust in the whole "he needs to pass a check to know about x". It effectively means a peasant cannot possibly recognise an ancient dragon if they see one. And that's just not how knowledge works. As in, the rules say "[i]n general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster."

So I understand that to mean that passing the check gives you some of the less immediately obvious details in the stat sheet. Not that you, with your 4 knowledge(whichever) skill points, cannot possibly know what the massive red flying lizard breathing fire all over your sheep is a dragon because the DC is 30+ but had it been a bit smaller, you would have a 25% chance of knowing because the wyrmling is DC 16.

(Also, "something something you cannot possibly spot the moon because it is too far" stolen from someone's signature)

Xykon maybe knows what MitD (or maybe he doesn't, and only cares that he is strong, ugly, and capable of sallowing unruly clerics), but if he does, it need not be because he passed some check. That he doesn't suspect him for the escape (whereas RC was conspicuously whisked away by the narrative) suggest he doesn't really know what MitD's species is capable of anymore than MitD himself, really.

Grey Wolf

[Jervis]

I am extremely hesitant to put any kind of trust in the whole "he needs to pass a check to know about x". It effectively means a peasant cannot possibly recognise an ancient dragon if they see one. And that's just not how knowledge works. As in, the rules say "[i]n general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster."

Yes but there are a lot of dragons besides true dragons, and some of them can look pretty unintuitive. Besides that there’s magical beast in the same category of check. And while you don’t need to pass a check to know about something, it gives somewhere to look. It gives us the rare position of knowing for a fact that X character has max ranks in X knowledge knows what MitD is while a wizards of a much lower level doesn’t know anything

[littlebum2002]

To quote someone from the end of last thread.


I don’t think unupdated 2e monsters are the most likely. Remember all of the unupdated 2e monsters were locked up in the tower at the start of the story and we know MitD wasn’t there. That said it’s possible he was an exception but it’s worth mentioning.

That's a good point, but we know from Start of Darkness that the MitD IS an exception for a lot of things. It was odd for him to be in the jungle, it's odd for him to be able to speak, and it's odd for him to be so small. So him being an exception to a rule of "all 2e monsters are in Durokon's dungeon" would explain why the Big Game Hunters were surprised to see him in the jungle.

[Edreyn]

Hooray for the new thread!

Is it possible that MitD requires to eat something that is not generic food? And while earlier he wasn't getting enough of it, now he gets much more. Maybe he'll get even more of it in future strips.

So a question, what he gets now, which was missing earlier?

A specific emotion? Cold weather? Being close to someone or something?

Any ideas on a creature that eats something that isn't usual meat or plants?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes but there are a lot of dragons besides true dragons, and some of them can look pretty unintuitive.

Not relevant to my example, which used a straight-up standard red dragon. By the rules, 4 ranks will not allow you to recognize a dragon once it's HD is past 25. Therefore, I think restricting knowledge gain to getting the right roll at the right time is not, and cannot be, the only way to acquire knowledge of creatures. And because it cannot be, there is no way to know that Xykon ever used his ranks, or he just found MitD's species through other means.

That's a good point, but we know from Start of Darkness that the MitD IS an exception for a lot of things. It was odd for him to be in the jungle, it's odd for him to be able to speak, and it's odd for him to be so small. So him being an exception to a rule of "all 2e monsters are in Durokon's dungeon" would explain why the Big Game Hunters were surprised to see him in the jungle.

It would, but unlike the other exceptions you list, that's not one that we have been given. And the logic of "well, he's an exception to rule A, therefore we can assume he is also an exception to rule B" is honestly as weak as it comes.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

As a follow up to Ruck's Pros, Cons, and Themes mini essay, I would like to highlight this thought of his.

The MITD’s story is about finding the willpower to follow your own heart and mind and change who you are. What better represents the ability to make that change than a Protean, a creature that can literally physically change what it is?

This theme is nicely paralleled by the discussion Minrah and Belkar have about changing who you are, and not letting others tell you who you are. She of course presents it in her own inimitable style, but the theme strikes the same chord (to me, anyway).

[Ruck]

As a follow up to Ruck's Pros, Cons, and Themes mini essay, I would like to highlight this thought of his.
This theme is nicely paralleled by the discussion Minrah and Belkar have about changing who you are, and not letting others tell you who you are. She of course presents it in her own inimitable style, but the theme strikes the same chord (to me, anyway).

Thanks, and yeah, I like the parallel you've drawn here. (Or, that I guess Rich has drawn, but you've highlighted.)

The quote you posted is, I think, at the heart of where the answer lies. The clues are supposed to make it possible to guess what MitD is, but knowing that Rich has said "the reveal is a crucial part of the story," we have to remember that this is a story. And with that in mind, we have to consider why Rich would choose a particular species for MitD and what that would add to the story. Even though the Protean best fits the evidence of MitD's powers in my view, what really drives it home for me is that it's the only monster species in the FBS that I find has some thematic connection to MitD's arc.

[Niveus Candidus]

Going to summarize my "We should look at 2e monsters" suggestion.

Spoiler

Show

We know that the MitD was solidified around strip #100, September 2, 2004 and that it is possible to guess, which we take to mean it was not invented just for this comic. Outside fiction aside, most of the theories have centered around 3.X monsters published before this date, though I always thought that should be extended all the way to the Monster Manual III, which not only would have been in development at the time but includes Rich Burlew as a member of the design team. But, seeing no clarity from what appears to be a clear hint made almost directly to the reader in strip 1260, I have to reconsider my MMIII thoughts. So, instead of arguing for extending the search a little further forward, maybe we need to go further backwards in time?

Spelljammer is once more a reality, with elves in space and giant hamsters. Maybe instead of focusing on the definable abilities of 3.X creatures, we should investigate 2E mobs, especially ones from the more niche settings.

Here I run into a problem--I started playing D&D in 3rd edition and spent most of my time in 3.5. I really only know about Ravenloft, Spelljammer and all the others through table stories and the occasional article on the web about the glory days of playing Dark Sun. 3.X lead me to discover Order of the Stick in the first place. I suspect that period's boom, after WOTC's new version grew Dungeons & Dragons back into popularity, not only allowed the comic's existence but also helped it be successful. If this is correct, the reason we haven't found the perfect MitD fit is because most OotS readers never sailed the cosmos with Mindflayers in living spaceships or have old 2E books laying around.

So, does anyone have access to an extensive treasure trove of beasts from the TSR days laying around that knows what monsters like to eat dwarves?

Spoiler

Show

On the one hand being from 1/2e explains why goblins weren’t bothered when they saw him. There -1 charisma was the same as 24 charisma when dealing with evil creatures. But remember all the unupdated monsters were trapped in the tower from the beginning of the story. We know for a fact MitD wasn’t trapped there.

Spoiler

Show

To quote someone from the end of last thread.


I don’t think unupdated 2e monsters are the most likely. Remember all of the unupdated 2e monsters were locked up in the tower at the start of the story and we know MitD wasn’t there. That said it’s possible he was an exception but it’s worth mentioning.

I also want to revisit the whole wizard vs Xykon knowledge check thing. That was likely a low level wizard. Assuming Xykon has arcana maxed, which we know he does because Epic Spellcasting, that means MitD is likely a species identified by a Knowledge Arcana check. That narrows it down to Constructs -which don’t work for reasons already well discussed- dragons, and magical beasts. He’s likely just so high a DC that the wizard couldn’t pass it.

RE: "On the one hand being from 1/2e explains why goblins weren’t bothered when they saw him. There -1 charisma was the same as 24 charisma when dealing with evil creatures."
An incredibly interesting point, especially because Rich has himself said he's strayed away from mechanical rules as the basis for the comic. The inverse of this is that when he chose the MiTD, he was deeply invested in the rules and backwards CHA rules may have been a hint we all missed for years.

RE: "all of the unupdated 2e monsters were locked up in the tower at the start of the story"
Can you point to the part of the story where this was spelled out? I remember the flumphs and such but do not remember the explanatory text. Even if it does say "This is where we locked up the 2e monsters that didn't make the 3.X cut," it actually lends credence to the Hunter scene. "

Spoiler

Show

Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."

It might have been too high CR to be locked away in the tower with a bunch of farting jellyfish or it was supposed to be, hence their surprise at finding one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Going to summarize my "We should look at 2e monsters" suggestion.

Absolutely no-one is stopping from looking at or proposing 2nd ed creatures.

RE: "all of the unupdated 2e monsters were locked up in the tower at the start of the story"
Can you point to the part of the story where this was spelled out?

Here. "Every monster in the pit was never updated". And the amulet works by targeting the will saving throw, which they do not have, thus if affects every single one of them, no exceptions.

I remember the flumphs and such but do not remember the explanatory text. Even if it does say "This is where we locked up the 2e monsters that didn't make the 3.X cut," it actually lends credence to the Hunter scene. "Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."

There is no reason to believe the SBGH would even know of the pit of 2nd ed monsters. But they do talk about others, so MitD isn't the only member of his species at large. So no, it does not "lend credence" to the hunter scene.

It might have been too high CR to be locked away in the tower with a bunch of farting jellyfish or it was supposed to be, hence their surprise at finding one.

I don't know if 2nd ed even had CR, but a dracolisk does not sound like a trivial encounter to me.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

I don't think Xykon would tolerate MitD following him around if he didn't know MitD was extremely powerful. MitD does annoy him from time to time, and Xykon's response to persistent annoyance usually involves Meteor Swarm.

So, Xykon knows something about MitD; I doubt very much he'd just take RedCloak's word for anything important.

How much he knows beyond "Creatures of this type can devour disloyal clerics" is hard to gauge. And presumably he knows MitD is an immature member of his species. About all this tells us is that MitD is a member of a species Xykon knows of, and that the base CR must be high enough that a "child" is still dangerous to RedCloak.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think Xykon would tolerate MitD following him around if he didn't know MitD was extremely powerful. MitD does annoy him from time to time, and Xykon's response to persistent annoyance usually involves Meteor Swarm.

So, Xykon knows something about MitD; I doubt very much he'd just take RedCloak's word for anything important.

How much he knows beyond "Creatures of this type can devour disloyal clerics" is hard to gauge. And presumably he knows MitD is an immature member of his species. About all this tells us is that MitD is a member of a species Xykon knows of, and that the base CR must be high enough that a "child" is still dangerous to RedCloak.

He also knows MitD is ludicrously strong, and I've argued in the past that is the crucial measure that makes him valuable to Xykon. Both Xykon and RC are primary casters; this is presumably well known by their enemies (by which I mean the unseen "other" teams they've had to dispatch in the past, such as "the time druids popped out of the potted plant"). Any team looking to prep for the fight will therefore be more easily surprised by an ace-in-the-hole that covers the one weakness in the visible team - lack of physical strength. So if someone teleports in and drops a null magic sphere (like mama dragon did to V), Xykon still has someone that can casually punch them through the nearest wall. Or the furthest, for that matter.

Beyond that fact, I doubt Xykon cares what he is*, because Xykon's philosophy is Power = Power, and in this case, power comes in the form of megaton punches.

Grey Wolf

*He'd also like him to be intimidating, but he lowered his expectations back at the start.

[Lord Torath]

In light of the most recent strip (Stew You), does anyone know any monsters that like the taste of dwarves? Bulettes like the taste of halflings (and so do athasian sloths - and the feeling is mutual), but I don't remember any that like dwarves.

As for the CitD saying "I don't... think so", as far as I can recall, he still doesn't know what he himself is, so he wouldn't know whether or not his species generally loves the taste of dwarves. Just that he personally has no interest in eating one.

[Sonofsol]

Howdy, longtime lurker chiming in: have we considered the bugbear cuisine to be the important clue here? Maybe it wasn’t just a throwaway when Greyview said in 1041: “[we] have bitter fruit of eternal despair.” It strikes me that with as little as we’ve heard about bugbear cuisine (no Hydraburger: North Branch, no gouda running gag) that this may be a hint. Is there a foodstuff that could be described as despairing? I suppose this could also feed (ha!) into the emotional-emotions-eating bit being bandied about.

I’d also like to add that I read Xykon’s comment as only narrowing down MITD’s favored habitat. The Big Game Hunters say he’s not a jungle creature, Xykon skims MITD’s Monster Manual entry to read, “underground,” and thinks, “Oh, bet he snacks on dwarves.” X knows enough to try feeding him children. Oona, presumably more knowledgeable, also seems to think humanoids are a foodstuff for MITD. What do y’all think?

[Algeh]

Howdy, longtime lurker chiming in: have we considered the bugbear cuisine to be the important clue here? Maybe it wasn’t just a throwaway when Greyview said in 1041: “[we] have bitter fruit of eternal despair.” It strikes me that with as little as we’ve heard about bugbear cuisine (no Hydraburger: North Branch, no gouda running gag) that this may be a hint. Is there a foodstuff that could be described as despairing? I suppose this could also feed (ha!) into the emotional-emotions-eating bit being bandied about.

I’d also like to add that I read Xykon’s comment as only narrowing down MITD’s favored habitat. The Big Game Hunters say he’s not a jungle creature, Xykon skims MITD’s Monster Manual entry to read, “underground,” and thinks, “Oh, bet he snacks on dwarves.” X knows enough to try feeding him children. Oona, presumably more knowledgeable, also seems to think humanoids are a foodstuff for MITD. What do y’all think?

I'm not convinced by this idea, but to run with it anyway and see where that takes me, what if the MITD's species had a typical habitat of arctic/tundra rather than underground, so he's less hungry because he's finally not having to expend as much energy on temperature regulation or is getting some typical local nutrient that was harder to come by? I suppose that would be another way to read that, and would also mesh with the idea that maybe Xykon thought he'd eat dwarves because they're also northern in this setting.

My personal reading is that the hunger thing is either telegraphing the end of a (child/larval) life stage or telegraphing something about character development rather than being anything to do with bugbear cuisine, but if I wanted to make that argument that's probably how I'd go about it.

[Crusher]

Oops, darn it. Wasn't paying attention. Well, here we are.

Tracking MitD guesses

We've been thinking about the MitD's identity for quite some time now. The unmasking is probably not nigh, but its definitely getting closer. Since these threads sometimes run for a long time (a recent one ran for almost 2 years), its entirely possible the great unveiling will occur before this thread finishes so its time to get formal about it.

This spot will track the guesses of anyone who cares to make a guess, along with when they made the guess (and I'll probably track people's guess history as well, unless people object). If you want to make a guess, you can either post it in the thread or message me. I'm pretty thorough about reading the thread, but I miss things so feel free to remind me.

For now, I'll organize them chronologically by guess but I may switch to alphabetical. Date is whatever day the forum tells me it was when the note was posted. Also, I'm already getting tired of typing out "Athasian Nightmare Beast", so it will be abbreviated ANB. You can guess up to three candidates.

List of guesses

Spoiler: There are quite a few

Show

DaggerPen - Protean 5/21/16, Protean > Hunting Horror 5/28/16, Protean > ANB > Hunting Horror 4/29/2018
Ranagrande - Extremely heavily templated Giant Space Hamster 5/22/16
Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Zodar > Aboleth 5/22/16, Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Slaad > Zodar 6/22/22
Kish - Infernal > Slaad 5/22/16, Infernal > Slaad > Protean 7/17/16, Slaad > Protean 8/31/18
Ron Miel - Púca 5/22/16
Sniffnoy - Uvuudaum 5/22/16
TraceHyde - Protean > Barghest > Something copywrited 5/23/16
Magesmiley - Prismatic Dragon (very young or young) 5/23/16
Michaeler - heavily templated Protean 5/23/16, young Protean = something Snarl-related (perhaps a Protean) 4/20/2018
RWeird - Protean > Neh-Thalggu > Uvuudaum 5/23/16
nihil8r - Glabrezu 5/24/16
Yanisa - ANB 5/27/16
Crusher - ANB > Prismasaurus > Glabrezu 5/27/16, ANB > Glabrezu > Neh-Thalggu 6/22/2016, ANB > Glabrezu > Slaad 1/11/17, Slaad > Glabrezu 1/23/17, Slaad > Glabrezu > Xenocrysth 7/16/20, Slaad > Glabrezu > ANB 10/26/21, Slaad > ANB > Very Old Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22, Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22 (yes, same day)
HarryMcB - Protean 5/28/16
Lord Bingo - Zodar 5/29/16
Lombard - Couatl 5/31/16, Li Lung (templated) 7/11/18, Li Lung with Wilder levels 4/10/19
Quartz - ANB 5/31/16, ANB = Uvuudaum 4/25/20
halfeye - Boojum 6/1/16, Black Hole > Boojum 7/24/18, Nightcrawler 3/19/19, Boojum > Nightcrawler > Black Hole 5/1/20
Ruck - Protean > ANB > Snorlax 6/2/16, Protean > Uvuudaum > ANB 12/3/19
GM_3826 - Protean > ANB > Uvuudaum 6/2/16
dancrilis - Grey Render 6/3/16
Vendanna - Half-dragon 6/3/16, Half-dragon/demon 11/15/17
IrishMusician - Protean 6/22/16
thereaper - Protean 6/22/16
ReaderAt2046 - Protean > Zodar > Carbosilicate Amorph 6/22/16, Protean > ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 7/17/16, ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 11/17/17, Xenocrysth > Carbosilicate Amorph 8/1/20
theinsulabot - ANB 6/22/16
Onyavar - Protean 6/22/16
Dark Matter - Protean 6/22/16
Humanist Geek - Protean > ANB > something templated 6/22/16
littlebum2002 - Protean 6/23/16, Slaad > Protean 8/25/2017
voiceofreason - the author 7/1/16
SirKazum - Slaad 7/12/16
Bestigle - Protean 7/12/16
ShiningWrath - ANB 7/17/16, Dread Linnorm (runty, minus a head) 4/28/18
Qwertystop - Protean > Zodar 7/17/16
Hardcore - Imentesh (its a kind of Protean) 7/17/16, Snorlax > Protean 5/1/20
Darth V - Protean 7/20/16
Peelee - Protean 7/20/16
Throknor - Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 7/28/16, Aboleth Mage -> Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 8/5/20
Knight.Anon - Young Titan 8/3/16
Rosstin - Protean 11/22/16
Outliar - ANB 11/23/16
Darth Paul - Slaad 1/20/17, Slaad > ANB 11/19/17, ANB > Uvuudaum 1/12/19, ANB > Protean, 1/13/19, Protean 3/31/19
Kythia - Slaad 8/9/17
Sniccups - Slaad = ANB 10/15/17
Thermophille - Slaad (White > Black) 11/6/17
Monation - Protean 11/15/17
Zenzis - Glabrezu 11/15/17
Shashakiro - ANB 11/15/17, Slaad 8/28/18
Clockshock - ANB 11/20/17
Djinnocide - Enveloper 7/6/18
Jaxzan Proditor- Protean > Zodar 7/11/18
godsflunky - Protean (because of the nice character-development resonances) 7/11/18
woweedd - Protean = Zodar 7/12/18
redgoblin - Hephaestus - 7/18/18
Father Miles - ANB > Protean > Snorlax 7/19/18
3Power - Ha-Naga 7/28/18, Ha-Naga > anything not on FBS list > Zodar 3/20/19
Calavera - Zeus 8/15/18
Synesthesy - “pure” Black Slaad 9/16/18
Qzin - Snarl, Jr 9/29/18
SpoonR - Baby Deity 9/29/18
Riarra - Slaad > Protean 9/30/18
EmperorSarda - Kandra/Mistwraith 10/22/18
thelivingmonkey - Glabrezu 10/25/18, Protean > Glabrezu > Snorlax 3/13/19
Mightymosy - Something not yet guessed > Protean > Carbosilicate Amorph 1/8/19, Something not yet guessed > Protean 3/31/19
NobleCuriosity - Protean > ANB 1/12/19
The Aboleth - ANB 3/5/19, Protean > ANB 12/5/19
Son of a Lich! - Protean 3/7/19
Mariele - Protean = ANB 3/14/19
Squire Doodad - Protean > Slaad 3/21/19, Protean > Xenocrysth 10/15/21
Jineon - 9-times blinded Beholder 3/29/19
Sir_Norbert - Uvuudaum 3/29/19
cinderrain - Protean 3/29/19
KrankenWagon - ANB > Black Slaad 3/29/19
Angrith - ANB > Haunting Horror 3/30/19
Mad Humanist - Protean 3/30/19
locksmith of io - Protean > ANB 3/31/19
gooddragon1 - Galeb Duhr 6/18/19
BasilisksSoldier - ANB - 8/30/19
pwning doodes - Uvuudaum 9/25/19
Fish - thesaurus 10/1/19
Schroeswald - Red Cloak's niece 10/1/19
Rollin - Protean 12/5/19
DLcygnet - Protean 12/10/19
Scizor - Protean 12/16/19, Xenocrysth > Protean 8/3/20
Iskar Jarak - Protean 4/1/20
trtl - Protean > Gazebo 4/4/20
Emanick - Frankenstein 4/5/20, "Something not guessed" > White Slaad > Protean 10/15/21
DavidBV - Prismatic Dragon - Kinda guessed on 5/10/20 and kinda guessed on 1/20/10 (prior to the contest starting, making it kind of a gray area)
Thales - Protean - 6/15/20
Kastor - ANB (the old one) - 6/18/20
catagent101 - Protean > Snorlax - 6/23/20, Protean > Xenocrysth > Snorlax 7/16/20
LadyEowen - ANB - 6/24/20
Doug Lampert - Wile E. Coyote > Cabosilicate Amorph > Redcloak's Niece 6/24/20
JonahFalcon - Very Young Obsidian Dragon 7/5/20
Neponde - Protean 7/16/20
Charybdis - Protean 7/18/20
Ariko - Xenocrysth 7/19/20
Jaziggy - Xenocrysth > Protean 7/21/20, Loculi 6/28/22
Baine - Protean 8/4/20
Blue Dragon - Snarl Jr 3/22/21
Timy- Protean 12/1/21
Jervis - a small psychic giant 6/16/22, Linnorm 6/18/22
chy03001 - Pit Fiend 6/21/22
IthilanorStPete - Protean 6/22/22
Eric the White - Barghast (version from Dragon #26) 6/22/22
Carl - Neh-Thalggu 6/23/22
silversaraph - baby or young ANB 6/27/22
Laurentio III - Loculi > Protean > amnesiac Proteus (from Marvel comics) 8/4/22, Loculi = Protean = Glabrezu 8/10/22
ff7hero - Slaad 8/4/22
diremage - Glabrezu 8/20/22
puzzler7 - Protean > Slaad 9/28/22
Elanfanforlife - Protean > Loculi = Snorlax 10/3/2022

I will also compile a list of the top vote-getters, which I will update infrequently. If you have 1 guess, it gets 1 point. 2 ordered guesses split 0.6/0.4 and 3 ordered guesses split 0.5/0.3/0.2. 2 non-ordered guesses "It is either X or Y, with no favorite" will be awarded 0.5/0.5 and 3 non-ordered guesses will go 0.33/0.33/0.33. If you guess more than 3, I'll discard 4th and after if possible. If not possible ("its one of these 5...") then I'll exclude the entire guess.

In the ancient past, when dinosaurs roamed the forums, I used a slightly different scoring system. However, it had a slight improportionality in points awarded based on numbers of monsters guessed. Over time it slowly started bugging me, so I eventually fixed it.

Last updated 10/21/21

Once again, roughly 15 months have passed since the last scoring update, and there have been minor alterations as most of the new entries were people changing their prior guesses. As usual, the net result has been the Protean modestly extending its commanding lead and everything else mostly staying still.

BUT, there is a new entrant to the list! The Xenocrysth was proposed (and quickly added to the FBS list) shortly after the last tally and has now arrived. If the Protean is the dominant leader and the ANB and Slaad are the closest (if still distant) primary challengers, then the Xenocrysth has emerged as a strong contender within the pack after them. The Uvuudaum remains at the lead of the secondary pack but the Xenocrysth is right at its heels just ahead of the Glabrezu.

The "Dragon" and "Deity" quasi-candidates remain in the same places and with the same scores as before. If you took all of the votes for various sorts of Dragons and Deities, and scored them both as single candidates, Dragon (which includes all types of Linnorm guesses) would come in a very solid 4th (between Slaad and Uvuudaum) and Deity would be tied with Glabrezu at 6th (or, well, 7th if we include "Dragon").

The ranking currently goes:

#1 - Protean (or some variant of Protean) - 35.5
#2 - ANB - 12.5
#3 - Slaad - 8.5
#X - "Dragon" - 6.0
#4 - Uvuudaum - 4.5
#5 - Xenocrysth - 3.7
#6 - Glabrezu - 3.0
#Y - "Deity" - 3.0
#7 - Zodar - 2.8

[Jervis]

I don't think Xykon would tolerate MitD following him around if he didn't know MitD was extremely powerful. MitD does annoy him from time to time, and Xykon's response to persistent annoyance usually involves Meteor Swarm.

So, Xykon knows something about MitD; I doubt very much he'd just take RedCloak's word for anything important.

How much he knows beyond "Creatures of this type can devour disloyal clerics" is hard to gauge. And presumably he knows MitD is an immature member of his species. About all this tells us is that MitD is a member of a species Xykon knows of, and that the base CR must be high enough that a "child" is still dangerous to RedCloak.

What was the mind control spell Xykon used on MitD again? There might be a 2e monster that has immunity to mind control via items but not spells or immunity to mind control below a certain CL. That sounds exactly like the sort of jank 2e monsters would have.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

List of guesses

Oh, that reminds me, please switch me over to Protean > Slaad > Zodar. I might as well own the damn silly guess.

GW

[IthilanorStPete]

Crusher - put me down for Protean, if you could.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thanks, and yeah, I like the parallel you've drawn here. (Or, that I guess Rich has drawn, but you've highlighted.)

I am not a 3.x expert, unlike a lot of folks who post in OoTS threads. I am a Pre 3.x player, and a 5e player, so I can't draw on any 'feel' for what seems right. I appreciate the effort you took to put together that post, the original and any subsequent variations on that theme.

Thanks, Ruck, for the gift of your time and eloquence.

[Kastor]

After taking in the new information, I've come to a conclusion-
MiTD must be:

Jason Asano (From He Who Fights With Monsters)

Pros:
-Is capable of teleporting himself and others!
-Is super strong thanks to magic, definitely strong enough to punch someone through a wall or crack weak earth.
-Affinity for darkness!
-Can easily avoid attacks that seemingly hit!
-His chin is so large it could easily make anyone nauseous!
-Unrecognizable because he's from a different universe!
-Loves to eat, even though he technically doesn't have to!
-Susceptible to mind effects, though resistant.

Cons:
-was published over sixteen years after MiTD's identity was solidified
-not actually a monster
-doubtful many people will get this gag


I'm certain this ironclad argument will win everyone over to my perspective

[Niveus Candidus]

Absolutely no-one is stopping from looking at or proposing 2nd ed creatures.

Correct--I am asking for help from players with more extensive 2e monster knowledge than I and encouraging those whom do have this information to look into it--Especially on the dwarf eating / delicacy point.

Here. "Every monster in the pit was never updated". And the amulet works by targeting the will saving throw, which they do not have, thus if affects every single one of them, no exceptions.

Every monster in the pit was never updated does not mean every monster never updated is in the pit. Is a range specified? Is there a limit to how many it affects? Is part of the MiTD's uniqueness that it is immune to such abilities? Could it not reach the pit? Was it on the way, hence why it was in the wrong environment? Considering how many exceptions we know about, I think saying "No exceptions is a bit premature."

There is no reason to believe the SBGH would even know of the pit of 2nd ed monsters. But they do talk about others, so MitD isn't the only member of his species at large. So no, it does not "lend credence" to the hunter scene.

The OotS knew quite a few 2e monsters by sight. Why would the Hunters not?

I don't know if 2nd ed even had CR, but a dracolisk does not sound like a trivial encounter to me.

GW

A good point! Since we had a specific reference, I was able to look it up. Dracolisks have an XP value of 3000 and hit dice of 7+3. After some Googling to figure out what that even means, I never figured out what that means! What I can say it is far, far from the highest XP award in the 2e MM. It's in line with the weakest Yugoloth and below a Xorn. It's equal to a Wraith but above a Wyvern. Again, I don't even know if XP is a good measure for monster difficulty in AD&D, so take this for what it is--Nonsense. As I said earlier, anyone whom knows 2e more, please advise further if I am on even a close track.

While I was checking online sources for 2e, I cross referenced "Dwarves," "Dwarf" and "Dwar" in monster write ups. Bulettes came up, of course, as did Deepsawn, Ogres (With specific notation on enjoying the flesh of elf, dwarf and halflings), Peytons, Ropers and a few others.

Also while browsing monsters for an edition I don't know, I stumbled upon some interesting text when cross referencing the word "delicacy":

Sapphire Dragon

Spoiler

Show

Pros: Dwarvian Delicacy misplacement

Spoiler

Show

Sapphire dragons consider giant spiders a great delicacy and often hunt them. Deep dragons,
drow, dwarves, mind flayers, and aboleth are great enemies of sapphire dragons.]

The words "Delicacy" and "Dwarf" in the same text, misread by Xykon.

Unexpected it can speak

Spoiler

Show

Sapphire dragons speak their own tongue and the tongue common to all gem dragons, and 16% of hatchling sapphire dragons have an ability to communicate with any intelligent creature. The chance to possess this ability increases 5% per age category of the dragon.]

Shout

Spoiler

Show

Breath weapon/special abilities: This dragon's breath weapon is cone of high-pitched, almost inaudible sound, 75 feet long, 5 feet wide at the dragon's mouth, and 25 feet wide at the base. Creatures caught by the blast can save vs. breath weapon for half damage from the sound's disruption, and must make a second saving throw vs. breath weapon or be affected by fear, fleeing the dragon in panic for two rounds per age level of the dragon, plus 1d6 rounds. This is a metabolic effect, and creatures unaffected by
magical fear still suffer from the effects if they fail their save. Deafness does not protect one from the
breath weapon's damage, though it prevents fear effects. A sapphire dragon casts spells and uses magical
abilities at 7th level, plus combat modifier.

Environment

Spoiler

Show

Climate/Terrain: Any subterranean

Incorrect Size


Knowledge

Spoiler

Show

Intelligence: Genius (17-18)

O'Chul's Escape (Really well) and an appearance of the oft-debated Psionics

Spoiler

Show

Combat: Sapphire dragons generally observe intruders before deciding what to do with them, unless known enemies such as drow or dwarves are present. If others are not actively hostile the dragon attempts conversation and spell use to determine their intentions and convince them to leave. If the dragon or its treasure is threatened, it attacks immediately with breath weapon, spells, and physical attacks. It uses psionics or other special abilities to escape if its life is in jeopardy

Psionics Summary:
Level Dis/Sci/Dev Attack/Defense Score PSPs
= HD 2/2/4 PB,EW/M-,IF = Int 200
Common powers (most sapphire dragons use psychoportive powers):
Clairsentience - Sciences: clairaudience, clairvoyance. Devotions: know direction, radial navigation.
Psychokinesis - Sciences: disintegrate, molecular rearrangement, telekinesis. Devotions: animate
shadow, control light, molecular manipulation, soften.
Psychoportation - Sciences: any. Devotions: any.

Strangely beautiful

Spoiler

Show

These beautiful dragons range from light to dark blue, and sparkle in the light, even at birth.

Knowledge of MitD

Spoiler

Show

Sapphire dragons are often mistaken for blue dragons, unless someone recalls the latter's preferred arid environment.

Family

Spoiler

Show

Sapphire dragons treat their young well, but force them to leave and find their own territory as soon as they are young adults.

Little Tidbits

• No Undead Raising Abilities noted
• Neutral, Not Evil or Good
• Advances and gains abilities as they age
• Dragon anatomy matches the "Drawing Clues" discernible shape notations, four limbs but able to stand upright, has a neck, two eyes and a mouth
• Not immune to charm or suggestion

Cons:
The largest one, despite matching quite a number of scenes and the remainder (Such as its huge strength, great defenses) easily being possible by the fact its 2e entry didn't have a state block, a misidentified dragon is still obviously a dragon.

Yellow Dragon

Spoiler

Show

Pros:
Dwarvian Delicacy misplacement

Spoiler

Show

Ecology: Although able to eat anything, yellows favor fresh meat. (Demi)humans are considered a delicacy, as are the unhatched eggs of brass dragons. (Yellows rarely get to enjoy this latter feast.)

Here Xykon would be correct, Demihumans should be near the top of the MitD's menu.
[B]Unexpected it can speak

Spoiler

Show

Yellow dragons speak their own tongue, which is quite different than that spoken by other evil dragons. Yellows have no interest in speaking with other races, and so they learn no other languages.

Shout

Spoiler

Show

A yellow dragon's breath weapon is a high-velocity blast of scorching air mixed with sand. This affects an area 50 feet long, 40 feet wide, and 20 feet high. Creatures caught within this blast must roll successful saving throws vs. breath weapon for half damage. Regardless of the outcome of this roll, they
must make another saving throw vs. breath weapon. Failure means that the abrasive sand in the breath blast has damaged their eyes, blinding them for 1d4+1 rounds.

Environment

Spoiler

Show

Climate/Terrain: Desert

Incorrect Size

Spoiler

Show

Size: G (36' base)

O'Chul's Escape, Rain, Reading Scrolls, Wishes don't come true

Spoiler

Show

A yellow dragon casts spells and uses magical abilities at 8th level, plus its combat modifier.

Spells up to 8th level cover a lot of individual moments.

Little Tidbits

• No Undead Raising Abilities noted
• Evil
• Advances and gains abilities as they age
• Dragon anatomy matches the "Drawing Clues" discernible shape notations, four limbs but able to stand upright, has a neck, two eyes and a mouth
• Not immune to charm or suggestion

Cons:
Did we mention it's a dragon? Even a dragon

Spoiler

Show

Although the existence of yellow dragons has long been predicted by sages (based on theories of primary colors), the first specimen was spotted only five or so years ago.

is still a dragon.

Well that was fun! I'll see if I can find a Monsters of the Faerun or whatever Spelljammer had.

[Ruck]

I am not a 3.x expert, unlike a lot of folks who post in OoTS threads. I am a Pre 3.x player, and a 5e player, so I can't draw on any 'feel' for what seems right. I appreciate the effort you took to put together that post, the original and any subsequent variations on that theme.

Thanks, Ruck, for the gift of your time and eloquence.

You're welcome. I should add that I'm not any kind of D&D expert - everything in my analysis of the mechanics was built on the years of work people had done before.

What I am good at are solving puzzles and the craft and structure of storytelling. The latter is a big reason I'm a big fan of this work, because Rich's understanding of those things is very strong as well. Knowing that he is a good storyteller and not a bad storyteller, I am confident he considered the story aspect when deciding what he wanted MitD to be.

In short, when both my conclusion from studying the evidence of the mechanics and my conclusion as to what would make the best story align, I go with that answer.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Every monster in the pit was never updated does not mean every monster never updated is in the pit.

"To bring all outdated monsters under the wearer's control" (emphasis mine)

Is a range specified?

MitD is living about a handful of floors down. Range is larger than that.

Is there a limit to how many it affects?

No. All

Is part of the MiTD's uniqueness that it is immune to such abilities?

No, unless you have a candidate that says otherwise, Although I can't imagine there are a lot of 2nd ed creatures with immunity to artefacts from future editions.

Could it not reach the pit?

Again: MitD is living about a handful of floors down

Was it on the way, hence why it was in the wrong environment?

No. We never see him once trying to reach it. And given MitD wouldn't be held by any cage he has been in by anything other than his manners, had he been mind-controlled to come to the pit, he would have.

Considering how many exceptions we know about, I think saying "No exceptions is a bit premature."

We know of no exceptions, and it's been more than a decade since that particular storyline concluded. There is nothing premature about basing our assumptions on what lore we already have. If, like Hilgya's return, Rich happens to revisit this particular piece of the canon, unlikely as that might be, then on the basis of the new details I'll happily revise my facts, but until then, I see no reason to do so, and thus any 2nd ed creature proposed will have as a con "it should have been in the pit".

The OotS knew quite a few 2e monsters by sight. Why would the Hunters not?

That is not what I said. I said there is no reason for them to know about the pit, and therefore there is nothing surprising to them about seeing a creature that should be in a pit they don't know about outside of said pit.

GW

[Jervis]

Howdy, longtime lurker chiming in: have we considered the bugbear cuisine to be the important clue here? Maybe it wasn’t just a throwaway when Greyview said in 1041: “[we] have bitter fruit of eternal despair.” It strikes me that with as little as we’ve heard about bugbear cuisine (no Hydraburger: North Branch, no gouda running gag) that this may be a hint. Is there a foodstuff that could be described as despairing? I suppose this could also feed (ha!) into the emotional-emotions-eating bit being bandied about.

I’d also like to add that I read Xykon’s comment as only narrowing down MITD’s favored habitat. The Big Game Hunters say he’s not a jungle creature, Xykon skims MITD’s Monster Manual entry to read, “underground,” and thinks, “Oh, bet he snacks on dwarves.” X knows enough to try feeding him children. Oona, presumably more knowledgeable, also seems to think humanoids are a foodstuff for MITD. What do y’all think?

There is a fruit in 3.5 that turns you into a tree if you fail a fort/will save that has some fluff about that, it also lets casters restore spell slots if they are at it and pass. But the DC is something stupid and I doubt that’s it.

[Niveus Candidus]

"To bring all outdated monsters under the wearer's control" (emphasis mine)

No, emphasis Nale; about the most unreliable narrator possible.

MitD is living about a handful of floors down. Range is larger than that.

If it is even working. The range might exclude the interior of the dungeon. The MiTD may be considered an "Employee" by the dungeon's rules. Or, most likely, the talisman may require a wielder to operate. It didn't seem to be doing anything floating in spot when I reread the pre-strip 100 arc. Dorukan was too busy with his Druid liaisons to sit around, daily channeling one of his many magical devices to pick up every 2e monster ever to set foot on stick world.

No. All

Again, basing your assumptions on the exposition of Nale during one of his half-cooked schemes? Nale also said the runes were what was keeping the obsolete baddies in check, not the talisman. Which Nale-note should I take more seriously?

No, unless you have a candidate that says otherwise, Although I can't imagine there are a lot of 2nd ed creatures with immunity to artefacts from future editions.

It does not need to be immune. See below. Also, the OotS wiki lists it as a Magic Item, not an artefact. Not a 100% source but the comic says it is a "Relic," not an artefact.

Again: MitD is living about a handful of floors down

Again, this assumes the talisman works when not being wielded.

No. We never see him once trying to reach it. And given MitD wouldn't be held by any cage he has been in by anything other than his manners, had he been mind-controlled to come to the pit, he would have.

It was found in the wrong environment and could have been en route to the talisman when the hunters found it. The MitD's manners being one of its defining traits, all that was necessary for the MiTD to cease its march forward was the call of the talisman stopping because Dorukan was done using it.

We know of no exceptions, and it's been more than a decade since that particular storyline concluded. There is nothing premature about basing our assumptions on what lore we already have. If, like Hilgya's return, Rich happens to revisit this particular piece of the canon, unlikely as that might be, then on the basis of the new details I'll happily revise my facts, but until then, I see no reason to do so, and thus any 2nd ed creature proposed will have as a con "it should have been in the pit".

It could have been in the pit. Or maybe it's too strong. Or perhaps it never made it. Or a dozen other reasons.

That is not what I said. I said there is no reason for them to know about the pit, and therefore there is nothing surprising to them about seeing a creature that should be in a pit they don't know about outside of said pit.

GW

The hunters do not need to know about the Pit. They only need to know that no one has seen a 2e monster for a long time.

[3Power]

I'm going to say a few things in regards to the newest comic.

First, in regards to the "dwarf delicacy" thing, you can basically take it three ways.
1. Xykon is correct, and somewhere it's mentioned that the Mitd's species likes to eat dwarves.
2. Xykon is misremembering, as he tends to do, and it's not a hint at all.
And finally, what my mind immediately jumped to:
3. They are both right, and there is conflicting information. I.e. One source (Xykon's) makes mention of it, and another (Mitd's) completely omits it.
(I should also mention that there's a sub-issue here, namely "did what Xykon maybe read actually say DWARVES specifically or just humanoids in general?" For example, if an entry says "Blorgforgs usually eat forest animals but will eat humanoids if they can get them" then Dwarves could be included as a delicacy under humanoids.)

Now what comes to mind immediately for option 3 is edition differences, which makes it beneficial that we're already discussing that. I can easily imagine one edition stating something about a creature's dietary habits, only for other editions to not mention it at all. This does not have to be an older edition in this case, necessarily, as if some 5e splatbook suddenly decided that kenkus could only talk in quotations, that would be a similar situation ripe for parody.

In any case, the following monstrous manual (2e) entries make mention of liking dwarf meat.

Specifically likes dwarf meat:
Skrag (Aquatic troll) (Devours anything they catch but prefer humanoids and have a fondness for Dwarves)

Specifically dislikes dwarf meat:
Bulette (also mentioned as always hungry)

Dwarves specifically mentioned amongst other humanoids:
Chimera (Enjoys preying upon Dwarves, humans, elves, and halflings)
Ogre (Fondness for Dwarf, Elf and Halfling flesh)
Roper (eats any meat but prefers Humans and Demihumans, Dwarves and Gnomes are common prey)

Specifically likes to hunt or eat demihumans or specifically mentioned as eating them among normal things:
Red Dragons (Maidens only, humans ok too)
Yellow Dragons ("Demihumans are delicacies", along with brass dragon eggs)
Giant Frogs
Gith (humans and demihumans are a "choice food supplement")(Not sure if these guys are related to the githyanki or not)
Hag (Prefer humans but will eat orcs or demihumans)
Harpy
Koalinth (Aquatic Hobgoblin)
Werebat (Hungry during metamorphosis... from baby bat to full batman)

Specifically likes to hunt or eat humanoids or specifically mentioned as eating them among normal things:
Blood Hawk
Jermlaine Gremlin ( Foot tall humanoid, Humanoid meat is a delicacy)
Ixitxachitl (Carnivorous Manta Ray)
Jacklwere (Were-Jackal)
leucrotta (Carnivorous horse-like creature with a panther-like face. "Legendary Ugliness")
Lycanthrope, Seawolf (Man-wolf-seal, eats lots of normal stuff plus "anyone they can sink their teeth into.")
Mist, Crimson Death (Drinks bodily fluids, "prefers humanoids"
peryton (Deer head bird)
Remorhaz (Bug worm)
Trolls
Killer Whale

Won't eat humanoids:
Hippogriff

Other:
Skriaxit (eats fear)
Orcs (Prefer non-humanoid meat)
Yellow Musk Creeper (Plant, turns humanoids into zombies)
Dragonne (Only attacks humanoids if no other food)
Aboleth (likes to eat intelligent creatures)
Argos (Ravenous creature driven by its hunger, eats anything that moves)

The above list may be incomplete. You can help by expanding it.

Oh, and as a side note, most naga don't have diets listed but the dark naga are specifically said to eat just about anything other than their own species, plant or animal, living or dead, but they especially like fresh blood.

Now, the other thing I wanted to bring up about this comic, is the idea that the MitD has finally gotten enough food to trigger a transformation, likely a size-change, an idea that others had hit upon as well.

Well, while going through the monstrous manual I found an interesting entry on something called a deepspawn. A deepspawn is a gibbering mouther/protean type of aberration creature. It will eat anything organic, and then can grow and give birth to any material plane creature. It then says it gets all the abilities of it's "creator" which I assumed was the deepspawn, but after looking up the 3e version I'm not so sure. The 3e version just says it creates spawn that copy the creature that was eaten and mentions nothing about giving those new spawn abilities like the parent.

Anyway, for a moment there I thought we had a creature that eats other creatures, spawns out psuedonatural versions of those creatures with both creatures' abilities, and then continued the cycle, but I think the description just wasn't clear, or maybe the creature works the opposite way for both editions.

[Niveus Candidus]

I'm going to say a few things in regards to the newest comic.

First, in regards to the "dwarf delicacy" thing, you can basically take it three ways.
1. Xykon is correct, and somewhere it's mentioned that the Mitd's species likes to eat dwarves.
2. Xykon is misremembering, as he tends to do, and it's not a hint at all.
And finally, what my mind immediately jumped to:
3. They are both right, and there is conflicting information. I.e. One source (Xykon's) makes mention of it, and another (Mitd's) completely omits it.
(I should also mention that there's a sub-issue here, namely "did what Xykon maybe read actually say DWARVES specifically or just humanoids in general?" For example, if an entry says "Blorgforgs usually eat forest animals but will eat humanoids if they can get them" then Dwarves could be included as a delicacy under humanoids.)

Now what comes to mind immediately for option 3 is edition differences,

Spoiler

Show

which makes it beneficial that we're already discussing that. I can easily imagine one edition stating something about a creature's dietary habits, only for other editions to not mention it at all. This does not have to be an older edition in this case, necessarily, as if some 5e splatbook suddenly decided that kenkus could only talk in quotations, that would be a similar situation ripe for parody.

In any case, the following monstrous manual (2e) entries make mention of liking dwarf meat.

Specifically likes dwarf meat:
Skrag (Aquatic troll) (Devours anything they catch but prefer humanoids and have a fondness for Dwarves)

Specifically dislikes dwarf meat:
Bulette (also mentioned as always hungry)

Dwarves specifically mentioned amongst other humanoids:
Chimera (Enjoys preying upon Dwarves, humans, elves, and halflings)
Ogre (Fondness for Dwarf, Elf and Halfling flesh)
Roper (eats any meat but prefers Humans and Demihumans, Dwarves and Gnomes are common prey)

Specifically likes to hunt or eat demihumans or specifically mentioned as eating them among normal things:
Red Dragons (Maidens only, humans ok too)
Yellow Dragons ("Demihumans are delicacies", along with brass dragon eggs)
Giant Frogs
Gith (humans and demihumans are a "choice food supplement")(Not sure if these guys are related to the githyanki or not)
Hag (Prefer humans but will eat orcs or demihumans)
Harpy
Koalinth (Aquatic Hobgoblin)
Werebat (Hungry during metamorphosis... from baby bat to full batman)

Specifically likes to hunt or eat humanoids or specifically mentioned as eating them among normal things:
Blood Hawk
Jermlaine Gremlin ( Foot tall humanoid, Humanoid meat is a delicacy)
Ixitxachitl (Carnivorous Manta Ray)
Jacklwere (Were-Jackal)
leucrotta (Carnivorous horse-like creature with a panther-like face. "Legendary Ugliness")
Lycanthrope, Seawolf (Man-wolf-seal, eats lots of normal stuff plus "anyone they can sink their teeth into.")
Mist, Crimson Death (Drinks bodily fluids, "prefers humanoids"
peryton (Deer head bird)
Remorhaz (Bug worm)
Trolls
Killer Whale

Won't eat humanoids:
Hippogriff

Other:
Skriaxit (eats fear)
Orcs (Prefer non-humanoid meat)
Yellow Musk Creeper (Plant, turns humanoids into zombies)
Dragonne (Only attacks humanoids if no other food)
Aboleth (likes to eat intelligent creatures)
Argos (Ravenous creature driven by its hunger, eats anything that moves)

The above list may be incomplete. You can help by expanding it.

Oh, and as a side note, most naga don't have diets listed but the dark naga are specifically said to eat just about anything other than their own species, plant or animal, living or dead, but they especially like fresh blood.

Now, the other thing I wanted to bring up about this comic, is the idea that the MitD has finally gotten enough food to trigger a transformation, likely a size-change, an idea that others had hit upon as well.

Well, while going through the monstrous manual I found an interesting entry on something called a deepspawn. A deepspawn is a gibbering mouther/protean type of aberration creature. It will eat anything organic, and then can grow and give birth to any material plane creature. It then says it gets all the abilities of it's "creator" which I assumed was the deepspawn, but after looking up the 3e version I'm not so sure. The 3e version just says it creates spawn that copy the creature that was eaten and mentions nothing about giving those new spawn abilities like the parent.

Anyway, for a moment there I thought we had a creature that eats other creatures, spawns out psuedonatural versions of those creatures with both creatures' abilities, and then continued the cycle, but I think the description just wasn't clear, or maybe the creature works the opposite way for both editions.

Thank you for the deep delve! I saw the Deepspawn but they don't fit the physical descriptions.

Now I am trying to look for Faerun, Spelljammer, Dark Sun and other settings for Monster listings. So far, the only monsters I see that can perform the MiTD feats are the two I saw, which both have issues by being readily recognizable as Dragons. If you have any idea where I could research these I would appreciate it.

Honestly, I do not know why we haven't looked at older editions more extensively, previously. GW's idea that every monster ever was trapped in the first Dungeon notwithstanding, the MiTD has eluded every researched 3.X monster for years and the closest we've come is a Hagunemnon (Protean), which is a bit of a punt of a guess--It's every monster, requires insane levels of convenience every step of the way, doesn't fit the physical characteristics at all and the few dribs and drabs we've had along the way aren't lining up.

Older editions would also explain how the MiTD was chosen before strip #100. Instead of there being only the 3 years of 3.0 (Release 2000) and the 1 year between 3.5 (Release 2003) and Strip #100, there would be literal decades of the monster's published existence. And as I said originally, OotS's start was with the 3.X crowd. It's no wonder some of the most knowledgeable players of that era look at the hints and guess not one monster but a monster designed to be every monster.

[Ortho]

Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.)

MitD's first three appearances are in strips 23, 37, and 82. Dorukan's amulet is introduced in strip 46 and destroyed in strip 59. If MitD really is a creature from a previous edition, we have an out-of-universe reason as for why he wasn't in the pit - it wasn't decided what he was until well after the amulet was destroyed!

---

If we need an in-universe reason, there's another way to interpret the properties of the amulet: the amulet has two powers, not just one. The first ability, if Nale in panel 5 is to be believed, is that the amulet has the ability to passively lure creatures from past editions. The second ability, if Nale in panel 6 is to be believed, is that the amulet grants its wearer the ability to directly control creatures from past editions. (Also note that the range of the amulet's command isn't infinite - Nale has to yell his orders out loud).

[Jervis]

MitD's first three appearances are in strips 23, 37, and 82. Dorukan's amulet is introduced in strip 46 and destroyed in strip 59. If MitD really is a creature from a previous edition, we have an out-of-universe reason as for why he wasn't in the pit - it wasn't decided what he was until well after the amulet was destroyed!

---

If we need an in-universe reason, there's another way to interpret the properties of the amulet: the amulet has two powers, not just one. The first ability, if Nale in panel 5 is to be believed, is that the amulet has the ability to passively lure creatures from past editions. The second ability, if Nale in panel 6 is to be believed, is that the amulet grants its wearer the ability to directly control creatures from past editions. (Also note that the range of the amulet's command isn't infinite - Nale has to yell his orders out loud).

That is true. It might be a passive lure but not a guaranteed effect. It might just bring in creatures within X range. For all we know it might even have a HD limit but that takes some twisting logic to make things up.

[Ruck]

Honestly, I do not know why we haven't looked at older editions more extensively, previously. GW's idea that every monster ever was trapped in the first Dungeon notwithstanding, the MiTD has eluded every researched 3.X monster for years and the closest we've come is a Hagunemnon (Protean), which is a bit of a punt of a guess--It's every monster, requires insane levels of convenience every step of the way, doesn't fit the physical characteristics at all and the few dribs and drabs we've had along the way aren't lining up.

The bolded has been brought up repeatedly and is simply not true.

Anything else I have to say about the Protean, I've already said and can be read at your leisure at the top of this thread, including the criticisms you've made.

Feel free to look through older monsters, certainly. Indeed, I encourage it because I want to try to get to the real answer here. I'm always interested if someone thinks they've found a better fit. That kind of research isn't my field, though.