MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

[Jasdoif]

As far as I can recall, the protean suggestion invokes its copying of Ex abilities to explain one thing: the escape. Everything else the protean explains using all its other characteristics (including, yes, the Alter Shape power, but crucially NOT to copy Ex powers from elsewhere). So I am mightily confused as to what you mean by "anything that MitD accomplishes by virtue of extraordinary abilities", because I cannot think of anything else.

Well, that's easy enough to explain: I'm not using "MitD" and "protean" as synonyms. Not every creature's natural abilities can account for everything MitD does, and I'm not going to assume I've interpreted every panel well enough to know that presentations of the protean's natural abilities are in no way distinguishable from some other creature's specialized abilities...especially since I haven't seen all the panels; the comic isn't over and the reveal hasn't yet happened.

My point is that the protean will continue to look good (great?) even if the MitD isn't one. I'd find the proposal much more moving if something showed the protean's more distinct natural abilities or its limitations, but I accept that's unlikely to happen before the reveal (Destabilize Form would be a giveaway, I don't expect we'd see the perfect regeneration through the darkness; and we're extremely unlikely to see failures based on the type or number of abilities involved).

So yeah, what other thing does the Protean explain by borrowing Ex powers other than the Esacape? The lack of snow tracks?

Honestly? With as cheap preventing tracks in snow (and more!) is, I can easily believe that it's a feature of his new umbrella.

(And, since we just added the quote to the first section to emphasize that MITD's species is part of the story and not just a guessing game: I'll add that Protean has by far the most thematic resonance with MITD's character arc, a quality that I, at least, have not been able to find in any other species.)

I dunno, I feel like "You aren't where you came from" could also apply to the ANB, the glabrezu, the hunting horror, the carbosilicate amorph, the slaad, the uvuudaum, the xenocrysth....And all that's assuming some pithy phrasing of a basic component of character-driven fiction (internal change in response to external circumstances), rather than some other facet of the MitD's journey through the comic, is what the Giant believes is the core element of the MitD's character arc; and that MitD is deliberately a manifestation of that specific element.

That's kind of the issue with trying to use themes for justification when you're in the audience: interesting characters are multidimensional and the events in their lives are non-trivial; it's not hard to see a theme whether it was intended or not, and to see it applied whether it was intentionally applied or not.

[Ruck]

I dunno, I feel like "You aren't where you came from" could also apply to the ANB, the glabrezu, the hunting horror, the carbosilicate amorph, the slaad, the uvuudaum, the xenocrysth....And all that's assuming some pithy phrasing of a basic component of character-driven fiction (internal change in response to external circumstances), rather than some other facet of the MitD's journey through the comic, is what the Giant believes is the core element of the MitD's character arc; and that MitD is deliberately a manifestation of that specific element.

I mean, the ideas you're talking about could apply to basically any monster-- and I don't mean that as disagreement. I like the Protean because it's the one that can manifest external change that reflects the internal change.

(and because it's the only FBS monster whose strength I'm confident in for the Tower scene, and because I think it completely laps the field on the Circus scene.)

[WanderingMist]

Having now read the protean theory, I find it well thought out and plausible, therefore I want it to be wrong out of sheer spite.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My point is that the protean will continue to look good (great?) even if the MitD isn't one. I'd find the proposal much more moving if something showed the protean's more distinct natural abilities or its limitations, but I accept that's unlikely to happen before the reveal (Destabilize Form would be a giveaway, I don't expect we'd see the perfect regeneration through the darkness; and we're extremely unlikely to see failures based on the type or number of abilities involved).

Like Ruck says, I feel like a protean would have displayed it's "natural" abilities plenty in both the circus and the tower. But even beyond that, your argument boils down to the statement that, despite Rich's assurance that his pick for MitD fits better than anything else, the protean will fit too well because it could potentially explain anything with Alter Form, even though it mostly cannot because Ex abilities, being the weakest of the three, just can't do what Su and SLA can, and despite the fact that we do not in fact rely on the alter form Ex copies for any actual clues?

I'm sorry, as argument go, that is rather weak. Maybe if we were in fact invoking the Ex copies for a bunch of the clues, but the reality is that we don't. What most people like bout the protean is not that he can copy Ex abilities, it is that it is strong, disgusting, weird, etc.

Grey Wolf

[Jervis]

Having now read the protean theory, I find it well thought out and plausible, therefore I want it to be wrong out of sheer spite.

I’m still team Linnorm. The only argument against it that I’ve found is that redcloak thought he can’t cast cleric spells. But remember knowledge checks only give partial information. Yeah red cloak has used MMs before but that doesn’t mean he was able to find Linnorms specifically. IIRC Monster Manual 2 is one of those he’s never used. Also noteworthy is that RC met MitD he was possibly using 2e stats which where from issue 183 of dragon magazine. He may have not been updated yet.

[Crusher]

I mean, the ideas you're talking about could apply to basically any monster-- and I don't mean that as disagreement. I like the Protean because it's the one that can manifest external change that reflects the internal change.

(and because it's the only FBS monster whose strength I'm confident in for the Tower scene, and because I think it completely laps the field on the Circus scene.)

A slaad evolution would probably be the single best representation of that, but Protean would probably be second best since nothing else really changes, I think.

[Qwertystop]

Like Ruck says, I feel like a protean would have displayed it's "natural" abilities plenty in both the circus and the tower. But even beyond that, your argument boils down to the statement that, despite Rich's assurance that his pick for MitD fits better than anything else, the protean will fit too well because it could potentially explain anything with Alter Form, even though it mostly cannot because Ex abilities, being the weakest of the three, just can't do what Su and SLA can, and despite the fact that we do not in fact rely on the alter form Ex copies for any actual clues?

I'm sorry, as argument go, that is rather weak. Maybe if we were in fact invoking the Ex copies for a bunch of the clues, but the reality is that we don't. What most people like bout the protean is not that he can copy Ex abilities, it is that it is strong, disgusting, weird, etc.

Grey Wolf

I don't *think* that's the argument? My read on Jasdoif's argument is more something like... The Protean is versatile enough to be hard to falsify as a theory. A creature that works because it can do just about anything in a broad category is going to fit well to any set of observations that doesn't go pinning down things that the target definitely can't do. It's not quite the null hypothesis, but it's something like it, I think? It seems hard to come up with plausible things that might happen in the story that would prove that MitD isn't a Protean, and a Protean would in general fit a lot of other scenarios than the ones we've seen, and so the fact that a Protean fits feels more like coincidence than that it fits our particular situation especially well.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily a good metric to use for judging potential solutions to this kind of guessing game, and I'm not sure whether I agree that this is a problem the Protean has, but I don't think the point Jasdoif is making is quite the one you're dismissing. Though I'm pretty tired, and not sure I'm articulating clearly what the difference is, so maybe this is just my brain making random sparks.

[Jasdoif]

I don't *think* that's the argument? My read on Jasdoif's argument is more something like... The Protean is versatile enough to be hard to falsify as a theory. A creature that works because it can do just about anything in a broad category is going to fit well to any set of observations that doesn't go pinning down things that the target definitely can't do. It's not quite the null hypothesis, but it's something like it, I think? It seems hard to come up with plausible things that might happen in the story that would prove that MitD isn't a Protean, and a Protean would in general fit a lot of other scenarios than the ones we've seen, and so the fact that a Protean fits feels more like coincidence than that it fits our particular situation especially well.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily a good metric to use for judging potential solutions to this kind of guessing game, and I'm not sure whether I agree that this is a problem the Protean has, but I don't think the point Jasdoif is making is quite the one you're dismissing. Though I'm pretty tired, and not sure I'm articulating clearly what the difference is, so maybe this is just my brain making random sparks.

Pretty much.

Most of the time capability alone is a valid heuristic, as if a creature can't do what MitD does there's not much point in looking at it further...but with open-ended access to other creatures' abilities, a protean has a natural advantage against nearly all other creatures to when it comes to how close it can resemble MitD without actually being MitD (basically solving the test itself, instead of what's being tested for); it'll be highly ranked in whatever standard serves as an estimate of...MitD-ability? And if we haven't found what MitD is, then protean could very easily be at the top of that list...and not having found MitD in that situation, we'd be left with protean as the best fit of the options we knew.

So fitting what MitD has failed to do, as well as what MitD is capable of, becomes particularly important for the protean; in much the same way as a proposal involving "obviously the escape was wish" needs more than "obviously he could have used wish later but he just didn't" to be believable. Of course, as Grey_Wolf_c has mentioned Alter Shape is much milder in potential than access to wish is; so this is more of a "where do you, personally, put the line on 'close enough to warrant making a claim'" rather than an argument against MitD being a protean...because it's certainly possible that MitD is, in fact, a protean.

[Ruck]

A creature that works because it can do just about anything in a broad category

And if this is the argument, as Jasdoif seems to confirm, then it again is a repetition of the same thing we've brought up before: The Protean cannot do just about anything. We've covered this, and we're just circling around misrepresentations of what a Protean can do again.

Having now read the protean theory, I find it well thought out and plausible, therefore I want it to be wrong out of sheer spite.

Wouldn't be the first time I got this reaction. But I think Rich knows what he's doing as a storyteller and is going to pick something that makes sense for the story.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I’m still team Linnorm. The only argument against it that I’ve found is that redcloak thought he can’t cast cleric spells.

Linnorms are also too large and, because of that, too weak to be MitD. And the best of the lot, dread, who uses psionic powers, thus skirting the undead creation business, also has the wrong number of eyes.

Also noteworthy is that RC met MitD he was possibly using 2e stats which where from issue 183 of dragon magazine. He may have not been updated yet.

Updates are not optional, and happen backwards in time - which is to say, Xykon is a sorcerer even in the past. Because of that, there is no "yet". If the species is updated, Rich uses the 3/3.5 version.

GW

[Jervis]

Linnorms are also too large and, because of that, too weak to be MitD. And the best of the lot, dread, who uses psionic powers, thus skirting the undead creation business, also has the wrong number of eyes.


Updates are not optional, and happen backwards in time - which is to say, Xykon is a sorcerer even in the past. Because of that, there is no "yet". If the species is updated, Rich uses the 3/3.5 version.

GW

The first issue literally has the characters update to use 3.5 stats. So we know prior to that moment everything was using 3.0 stats. Likewise there are characters described as 1E rogues and commoners who remember 1E rules. This means that in universe there are lines drawn between not 3.5 and 3.5 and there is precedent for them changing to use 3.5 stats. As for the size Grey is just huge and we know MitD isn’t full grown. People assuming that RC has perfect knowledge on MitD just because they know what he is could be looking over something for reasons I’ve already described.

And there’s the fact that we factually know that Xykon has either maxed or just very high ranks in Know Arcana which is that stat used for dragons. Yes knowledge isn’t the only way a creature can know about something but it gives us a reason why someone so understudied as Xykon would know what MitD is. And knowledge or not nothing but reading the MM entry will tell you everything about a creature. We know that RC is a metagamer but the only two places where this entry would exist are in a issue of dragon mag and the eventual MM2. And again MM2 wouldn’t be in play yet because we know the update to 3.5 happened later.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The first issue literally has the characters update to use 3.5 stats. So we know prior to that moment everything was using 3.0 stats. Likewise there are characters described as 1E rogues and commoners who remember 1E rules. This means that in universe there are lines drawn between not 3.5 and 3.5 and there is precedent for them changing to use 3.5 stats.

They have memory of it, sure. But Xykon would not have been a sorcerer if MitD was somehow 2nd ed, and yet Xykon was a sorcerer before MitD even showed up.

As for the size Grey is just huge and we know MitD isn’t full grown.

OK, pick one. You cannot keep just switching between linnorn subtypes as if it didn't matter. Grey doesn't have access to any form of escape explanation Grey has STR 24, and can create undead. Corpse tearer is gargantuan and can create undead (it's propensity to do so gives it its name!). Dread is colossal and has too many eyes. And the latter two have decent STR, but due to their size are too weak if they are so young they are MitD-sized.

(ETA: various corrections from looking it up in the MM2 rather thn relying on my memory)

People assuming that RC has perfect knowledge on MitD just because they know what he is could be looking over something for reasons I’ve already described.

Weird you insist on this even though I didn't mention it. But since you brought it up anyway: no, it would be weird if RC, who is an absolute nerd, hadn't fully researched what MitD can do so he could make best use of him.

And there’s the fact that we factually know that Xykon has either maxed or just very high ranks in Know Arcana which is that stat used for dragons. Yes knowledge isn’t the only way a creature can know about something but it gives us a reason why someone so understudied as Xykon would know what MitD is.

We do not know that Xykon actually knows what MitD is. MitD himself isn't sure, and even in the latest comic, "Xykon thinks MitD is some other creature" remains a plausible scenario.

And knowledge or not nothing but reading the MM entry will tell you everything about a creature. We know that RC is a metagamer but the only two places where this entry would exist are in a issue of dragon mag and the eventual MM2. And again MM2 wouldn’t be in play yet because we know the update to 3.5 happened later.

"Later" than the undead creation scene? No.

Grey Wolf

[Shining Wrath]

Some arguments against the protean, which I still consider a pretty good choice, but since we're doing this:

• The alignment is always chaotic neutral. Xykon and RedCloak seem to take MitD being evil as a given, and he joins in an evil laugh almost the first time we see him.
• The environment is any. The Stereotypical Big Game Hunters may have been surprised to see "one of those", but should not have remarked upon seeing him in a forest.
• No mention is made in the stat block of telepathy, although the Protean can Detect Thoughts. In fact, no mention of language is made at all. Surprise that MitD speaks Common doesn't really fit.
• The Will Save is +32 and spell resistance is 39. It is not a "gimme", even for Xykon the epic level sorcerer, to overcome MitD's will and charm him.
• The AC is 50. Attacking MitD in the darkness Miko (probably around +20 to 25 attack bonus from BAB and strength) likely wouldn't have hit at all, rather than "tickling" him. Rule of funny may apply here.
• We have never seen MitD use any of the at-will psionics.
• MitD sleeps. A sleeping creature cannot take actions (per sleep spell, "helpless"). While he sleeps, MitD's form should "boil", and since it is possible for him to take on a form up to 200 feet in length, he absolutely would have burst his cage asunder at some point. No amount of innate politeness or desire to be like his friends should prevail while he sleeps, and it's a pretty big hand-wave to ignore this. He sleeps; he can't take actions while he sleeps; his form should change constantly, including changes in size.
• O Chul believes he knows what MitD is. What are the odds that a man of O Chul's limited education would recognize a protean? Awesome though he may be in his toughness, we have no reason to believe he knows more about aberrations than a wizard who has "never seen anything like it".
• Oona likewise is of limited educational attainment, although she may have come across MitD's kind while hunting. However, she's not epic level so far as we know, so if she had come across a protean while hunting, she probably wouldn't have lived to tell about it.
• Xykon, while coaching MitD for his big reveal in the first dungeon, paid a lot of attention to his words, but made no mention of his form. MitD appearing as a combination flea / rat / goblin would not have scared anyone.
• Proteans are solitary creatures, but MitD knew his father, who was quite a bit larger and ate a lot.

[Fyraltari]

O Chul believes he knows what MitD is. What are the odds that a man of O Chul's limited education would recognize a protean?

Rather low. But considerably higher after consulting with Azure's city most learned scribe.

Oona likewise is of limited educational attainment, although she may have come across MitD's kind while hunting. However, she's not epic level so far as we know, so if she had come across a protean while hunting, she probably wouldn't have lived to tell about it.

I don't recall Oona claiming to know what MitD is, just that he is obviously powerful and that adding such a beast to her rooster would reflect well on her.

[Shining Wrath]

Rather low. But considerably higher after consulting with Azure's city most learned scribe.



I don't recall Oona claiming to know what MitD is, just that he is obviously powerful and that adding such a beast to her rooster would reflect well on her.

I took Oona saying that he is small and will grow as indicating she's seen a mature specimen. And I did have the timeline reversed on O Chul's knowledge, so that point no longer stands, and I'll cheerfully concede it. Not gonna get mad at anyone with any theory about MitD, it's supposed to be a mystery.

If MitD is a protean, I wonder if he knows he is capable of taking on multiple forms and gaining extraordinary abilities? He can't see himself, does he even know he changes size and shape?

Another note: have we ever seen him use darkvision? Or, contrariwise, not be able to see in the dark?

EDIT: if someone wants to argue with me, I shall use the wisdom of Greyview. "Nod. Get treat." Have your treats prepared.

[hroþila]

The thing with Oona's statement is that sure, it could be that she's familiar with his species, she knows he's not a mature specimen and therefore she knows he'll grow. Or it could be that she thinks he's a juvenile because of his personality, so she expects him to keep growing merely on that basis. So while it's likely that the MitD is indeed a juvenile, there's no guarantee that Oona knows what the MitD actually is.

[Crimsonmantle]

Oona seems to have at least a general idea what MitD is, but why do we think she is of "limited educational attainment"?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The alignment is always chaotic neutral. Xykon and RedCloak seem to take MitD being evil as a given, and he joins in an evil laugh almost the first time we see him.

RC recruited/shanghaied him to guard his brother's village. At that point, Chaotic Neutral was probably fine. And CN doesn't mean "never does anything Evil".

The environment is any. The Stereotypical Big Game Hunters may have been surprised to see "one of those", but should not have remarked upon seeing him in a forest.

It's a creature from the outer planes. Finding it anywhere in the Material plane, not close to a portal, breach or the like, is surprising.

No mention is made in the stat block of telepathy, although the Protean can Detect Thoughts. In fact, no mention of language is made at all. Surprise that MitD speaks Common doesn't really fit.

Fluff makes it clear that proteans have a language of their own that evolves so quickly that it sounds effectively like nonsense to everything else. To a SBGH, who learns from observation rather than books, that probably is equivalent to not having a language at all. And yes, they can in fact speak every language, but fluff also makes a point of saying that proteans are extremely xenophobic and refuse to talk to any non-protean, so MitD speaking at all, and in common no less, fits the protean like a glove.

The Will Save is +32 and spell resistance is 39. It is not a "gimme", even for Xykon the epic level sorcerer, to overcome MitD's will and charm him.

So? Xykon is a sorcerer. His approach to overcoming SR and Save is "spam the spell". And he's probably boosted his own spell DC and DR penetration, what with those being the fundamental obstacles to his own powers.

ETA: also, see V's complaint regarding probabilities, harlots and copper pieces.

The AC is 50. Attacking MitD in the darkness Miko (probably around +20 to 25 attack bonus from BAB and strength) likely wouldn't have hit at all, rather than "tickling" him. Rule of funny may apply here.

What happens when you don't reach the AC does not mean "miss completely". It means whatever the DM/author wants first and foremost, but "you made contact, with no effect" is a very common way of interpreting it. That is what happens if you hit an opponent in full plate armour and don't hit any joints -you might as well have tickled them with a feather.

We have never seen MitD use any of the at-will psionics.

"Powers he doesn't know he has", which applies to pretty much every creature. Although I'll point out that detect thoughts has been offered as an explanation for both the ritual knowledge and the escape destination, and it's not like he'd have much reason to use the others (how many locked doors has he needed to Knock open?), or in some cases, we couldn't possibly tell if he had.

MitD sleeps. A sleeping creature cannot take actions (per sleep spell, "helpless"). While he sleeps, MitD's form should "boil", and since it is possible for him to take on a form up to 200 feet in length, he absolutely would have burst his cage asunder at some point. No amount of innate politeness or desire to be like his friends should prevail while he sleeps, and it's a pretty big hand-wave to ignore this. He sleeps; he can't take actions while he sleeps; his form should change constantly, including changes in size.

No. His base size is Large, which fits in the box, even more so if he is not fully grown. There is no reason to think that he can mutate outside that size passively - i.e. if he wanted to use Alter Form to give himself the poisonous tail of a colossal creature, sure that tail might be 200 feet long (the max), although as far as I can tell it'd still have a reach of 10 ft, so make of that what you will. But otherwise, passively while asleep, I'd assume it'd be just be random forms rather than the specific Ex appendages.

But yes, the fact his eyes don't change while asleep is the most obvious issue with the protean, and is listed as such in the OP.

Xykon, while coaching MitD for his big reveal in the first dungeon, paid a lot of attention to his words, but made no mention of his form. MitD appearing as a combination flea / rat / goblin would not have scared anyone.

Again: that is not what a protean does. The "base" body is still a protean's. It might add the wings of a flea, the tail of a rat and the left foot of a goblin to its body, but otherwise, it is still an mass of boiling flesh... which happens to have flea wings (presumably granting him flight), rat tail (possibly sticking from a random place) and a green foot between his eyes. That is plenty scary on its own right, and given MitD's proclivities, it is clearly better not to have him "improve" on that, or you are liable of ending with a less scary shape than if you left his body to its own devices.

Proteans are solitary creatures, but MitD knew his father, who was quite a bit larger and ate a lot.

"Solitary" means "if the party is going to fight it, he won't have friends". It does not mean "no two creatures of this species can ever be seen in the same place at the same time". "Solitary" is like "Always Evil" - meant to assist the DM in the campaign design, not a biological imperative.

---

Oona seems to have at least a general idea what MitD is, but why do we think she is of "limited educational attainment"?

You think there is a university hidden away the next ice-flow over? She and her tribe are hidden away, and exist at subsistence level (because the gods dealt them a terrible hand). Her chances to obtain an education beyond what she and her small tribe can figure out themselves are extremely limited. Admittedly, she will know a lot simply from practical observation of the menagerie in the caves, but she can't have access to much knowledge she didn't gather herself one hunt at a time.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

I do not think there is any reason to believe Oona's words indicate any particular knowledge. Beyond that she probably has enough basic spacial awareness that after she said "so small, though!" Rich is not going to reveal that in fact the creature in the darkness was supposed to be already Gargantuan as of the strip where she said that.

[Jervis]

They have memory of it, sure. But Xykon would not have been a sorcerer if MitD was somehow 2nd ed, and yet Xykon was a sorcerer before MitD even showed up.

There was a massive room full of unupdated 2e monster, it’s clear that updates to statblocks happened as those sourcebooks come into existence. And to go slightly meta with this Xykon and Redcloak were both single class, so this could be early 3.0 before any good PrCs existed. And before MM2 which updated Linnorms.

OK, pick one. You cannot keep just switching between linnorn subtypes as if it didn't matter. Grey doesn't have access to any form of escape explanation. Corpse tearer can create undead (it's propensity to do so gives it its name!). Dread has too many eyes. And the latter two are too big, and therefore too weak if they are so young they are MitD-sized.

What is miracle? Grey has cleric casting. And, again, as I’ve explained many times before knowing what a creature is does not mean you know everything about it. I’ll explain why that’s isn’t a contradiction to the create undead scene in a minute.

Weird you insist on this even though I didn't mention it. But since you brought it up anyway: no, it would be weird if RC, who is an absolute nerd, hadn't fully researched what MitD can do so he could make best use of him.


We do not know that Xykon actually knows what MitD is. MitD himself isn't sure, and even in the latest comic, "Xykon thinks MitD is some other creature" remains a plausible scenario.


"Later" than the undead creation scene? No.

Grey Wolf

Again have we seen MM2 or Dragon 183 in Redcloaks collection? We’ve seen him use sourcebooks before but I don’t believe those were among of them. As such it’s possible he doesn’t have those and needs to rely on knowledge checks, which give incomplete information and do not guarantee the knowledge “casts as a cleric”.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There was a massive room full of unupdated 2e monster, it’s clear that updates to statblocks happened as those sourcebooks come into existence. And to go slightly meta with this Xykon and Redcloak were both single class, so this could be early 3.0 before any good PrCs existed. And before MM2 which updated Linnorms.

Irrelevant. MM2 came out before SoD.

What is miracle? Grey has cleric casting.

Then it can create undead.

Again have we seen MM2 or Dragon 183 in Redcloaks collection? We’ve seen him use sourcebooks before but I don’t believe those were among of them. As such it’s possible he doesn’t have those and needs to rely on knowledge checks, which give incomplete information and do not guarantee the knowledge “casts as a cleric”.

He's literally holding MM2. Which if you had bothered to do even a minimum of your own research instead of piling it on me to do, you would have known.

And you know, I am rather tired of doing the footwork of your case for you. I'm pulling out of this conversation. As far as I can tell, the issues with the linnorms listed in the OP are still perfectly valid.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

RC recruited/shanghaied him to guard his brother's village. At that point, Chaotic Neutral was probably fine. And CN doesn't mean "never does anything Evil".

In addition to this, he refused to eat babies and hasn't really done much, if any, actual Evil regardless. I don't think "joining in an Evil laugh" is a scathing indictment of alignment.

Ignoring how "always" doesn't mean "always" in alignment blocks anyway.

[Jervis]

Irrelevant. MM2 came out before SoD.


Then it can create undead.



He's literally holding MM2. Which if you had bothered to do even a minimum of your own research instead of piling it on me to do, you would have known.

And you know, I am rather tired of doing the footwork of your case for you. I'm pulling out of this conversation. As far as I can tell, the issues with the linnorms listed in the OP are still perfectly valid.

Grey Wolf

I was misremembering that one as a different book. On the topic of release dates, it doesn’t matter if a book existed when a story was written just if it existed when it was set. As I said before we know books come into existence in universe and we know that things happening before a certain point use different rules. We know everyone in SoD is using 3.0 rules for example or else things loose internal consistency.

That said I do agree knowing that RC has MM2 makes MitD being a linnorm less likely. I still say it’s a better fit than Protean and a EX greater teleport/planeshift but I need to start looking for other candidates

[LadyEowyn]

Based on a reread of the latest comic, I’m feeling like MITD’s lack of hunger is related to O-Chul’s presence. MITD specifically says it’s a change in the last few days.

It’s not something related to the Arctic, since they’ve been there for at least a couple weeks. It feels too convenient for him to judt have coincidentally reached maturity a couple days before the big battle. There’s nothing new about his diet. And his alignment shift has happened gradually, there’s nothing to make a few days ago be an inflection point.

What happened a few days ago was the paladins showing up.

…does anyone know if paladin mounts need less food than other creatures? In cases where the paladin mount is a real-world being, if that’s possible?

[Jervis]

Based on a reread of the latest comic, I’m feeling like MITD’s lack of hunger is related to O-Chul’s presence. MITD specifically says it’s a change in the last few days.

It’s not something related to the Arctic, since they’ve been there for at least a couple weeks. It feels too convenient for him to judt have coincidentally reached maturity a couple days before the big battle. There’s nothing new about his diet. And his alignment shift has happened gradually, there’s nothing to make a few days ago be an inflection point.

What happened a few days ago was the paladins showing up.

…does anyone know if paladin mounts need less food than other creatures? In cases where the paladin mount is a real-world being, if that’s possible?

Only think I can think of is share spells. Was o chu hit with a spell that makes it so he doesn’t need to eat? Is there a Paladin spell that can do that which he could have cast on himself? I know rules for alternate Paladin mounts exist based on CR but I don’t know if those apply here.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Based on a reread of the latest comic, I’m feeling like MITD’s lack of hunger is related to O-Chul’s presence. MITD specifically says it’s a change in the last few days.

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but please be aware I'll be playing devil's advocate in this post:

It’s not something related to the Arctic, since they’ve been there for at least a couple weeks.

It could be that's how long it's taken him to "catch up". Sort of how after a lengthly period of actual RL hunger you can't just gorge yourself and be back to normal, you have to build up gradually.

It feels too convenient for him to judt have coincidentally reached maturity a couple days before the big battle.

XP is awarded in chunks, though. And for character development.

There’s nothing new about his diet.

That is not true. We know he is being fed by Oona's tribe, rather than RC's goblins. Given the massive influx of extra meat resulting from XYkon's cave expeditions, it might just be that they do have all-you-can-eat even by MitD's standards, and that might make all the difference.

And his alignment shift has happened gradually, there’s nothing to make a few days ago be an inflection point.

True but, again, the universe delivers XP in chunks, and sometimes it takes you checking, at that.

Grey Wolf

[3Power]

Just a reminder that Redcloak being incredulous that MitD can create undead does not mean MitD can not create undead.

MitD has expressed that he should be able to do certain things (I.E. "hope" really hard so that O-chul escapes) to similar incredulity before.

[halfeye]

Just a reminder that Redcloak finding it incredulous that MitD can create undead does not mean MitD can not create undead.

MitD has expressed that he should be able to do certain things (I.E. "hope" really hard so that O-chul escapes) to similar incredulity before.

In English, which I presume is not 3Power's first language, Redcloak could find it incredible, or Redcloak could be incredulous, though the latter is more rarely used. The root word is "credit", meaning "believe".

[InvisibleBison]

Just a reminder that Redcloak finding it incredulous that MitD can create undead does not mean MitD can not create undead.

Then what does it mean?

[Jervis]

I keep pointing it out but we shouldn’t assume RC has full knowledge of what MitD can do. Him having MM2 shoots linnorm is the foot a little bit, but knowing what something is in know way implies that he has full knowledge of his capabilities.