Vecna Playtest Notes

[Dork_Forge]

I generally agree with the end result, though the pegasus can dash, for up to 180 feet of movement and both of Vecna's prime abilities are 120 feet.

That's only a problem if Vecna doesn't actually move, normal movement + Vile Teleport hits the Dashing distance, as does just casting Fly on himself if he feels like being aggressive instead of defensive.

Going high up on a steed is just opening the Paladin up to a large amount of fall damage and prone.

[ecarden]

That's only a problem if Vecna doesn't actually move, normal movement + Vile Teleport hits the Dashing distance, as does just casting Fly on himself if he feels like being aggressive instead of defensive.

Going high up on a steed is just opening the Paladin up to a large amount of fall damage and prone.

As I said, I tend to agree, but it's certainly superior to just getting right up into Vecna's face and trying to stay there. At least keeping your distance you may have a chance at keeping your Pegasus alive for two rounds rather than one. Though Lightning Bolt + Rotten Fate would probably do it too.

[ProsecutorGodot]

As I said, I tend to agree, but it's certainly superior to just getting right up into Vecna's face and trying to stay there. At least keeping your distance you may have a chance at keeping your Pegasus alive for two rounds rather than one. Though Lightning Bolt + Rotten Fate would probably do it too.

Keeping distance would mean you shouldn't be a Paladin in this example, there's absolutely no way for a Paladin to come close to matching Vecna's DPR at range. You have to smite or he's all but guaranteed to win through attrition.

[animorte]

On this note, what classes would best stand up to Vecna solo?

[ecarden]

Keeping distance would mean you shouldn't be a Paladin in this example, there's absolutely no way for a Paladin to come close to matching Vecna's DPR at range. You have to smite or he's all but guaranteed to win through attrition.

Sorry, to be clear, keeping distance in this case means making use of PAM's reach to stay out of dagger stabbing range, while still being able to whack him, not kiting, as that's doomed to failure. But than again, this entire attempt is doomed to failure.

On the who would do best solo, the cheating answer is the magical know-everything army of simulacrum wizards. More generally, the real problem is anyone who can do enough damage to burn through his healing probably can't lock him down and prevent him from bailing.

[Dork_Forge]

I think a Kensei Monk, a few different Fighters, and maybe a Soul Knife Rogue could give it a good shot.

[Dr.Samurai]

Would Death Ward shared with the Pegasus provide enough wiggle room to make it to Round 2?

[Dork_Forge]

Would Death Ward shared with the Pegasus provide enough wiggle room to make it to Round 2?

I'd say questionable, depends on the save and damage roll, still likely to just die in turn 1. Casting Death Ward eats into the Paladin's nova, however, which is the entire point of choosing one in this instance.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Would Death Ward shared with the Pegasus provide enough wiggle room to make it to Round 2?

Well, my Redemption Paladin in the example has a good chance of keeping the Pegasus alive for a handful of turns at least, with Circle of Power and Aura of the Guardian combined the Pegasus has a good chance of surviving unless Vecna completely focus fires it. It's still pretty luck reliant, I wouldn't count on it buying more than 2 or 3 rounds if the additional damage you're taking doesn't start killing you first.

If you did combine this with Death Ward I think you can 100% guarantee an additional turn when the Pegasus would have died but at that point the equation changes to whether you can even burst Vecna down anymore.

[Hael]

The flaws continue, it looks like you're assuming that any miss can be turned into a GWM hit with the CD? Are you taking into account that the CD means nothing for a 1? Are you using the expanded crit range multiplier in that math with the assumption of CD making it a hit? You took GWM, praise the CD, yet the only part of your math you actually expanded on doesn't include it? Let's go with what you actually presented:

Attack 1: 1d10+6+9d8 > 5.5+6+40.5= 52
Attack 2: 1d10+6+9d8 > 5.5+6+40.5= 52
Attack 3: 1d10+6+9d8 > 5.5+6+40.5= 52
PAM: 1d4+6+9d8 > 2.5+6+40.5= 49
Total: 205 Damage assuming all hits...
.

Your numbers do not seem to be accurate.

The DPR for a Paladin using 3 +1 Halberd attacks, with a crit range of 19-20, using three 4th level smites and a Bonus Action 1d4+6 haft attack results in a DPR range around 150 points of damage.

Nope the math I wrote is correct (upon rechecking) (Mojo, I think you need to use a smite on the BA). Use Ludics spreadsheet b/c the interaction with crit range/GWF and GWM crit feature has some pretty significant alterations to what you might naively think (it adds nearly 30 dpr) and it is admittedly not completely obvious. With a 12 to hit against AC 18 with GWF, a crit range of 19 and the above. I get 198 dpr without using power attack or any CD. Each primary attack does about 59 dpr

To simulate the effect of channel divinity, we can approximate the solution as follows. Subtract one primary attack (so 3 to 2) which gives a 147 dpr with the BA. Ok? Now we make one additional POWER attack with a 22 to hit (+10) with -5/+10. This gives a dpr for that one strike of ~78. 147 + 78 = 225. Power attack is generally not worth it in this fight, except for this one particular attack (or if someone gives you advantage) but the crit portion of the feat actually makes a rather large difference. In reality, its going to be a bit better than this, b/c the CD is a choice. You won't waste it on a natural 1 b/c you choose to use it after you see the roll, but I didnt feel like using anydice to simulate this difference.. Conclusion remains unchanged.

I mean this is going to look not overly different if we use a Vengeance paladin + VOE + haste (less damage on round 1, more damage on round 2) ..

More generally any Paladin with PAM/GWM and 20 str is going to be right on the borderline of killing Vecna in 2 rounds. Without using any subclass feature, a paladin does about 140 dpr a nova round under the above assumptions. His subclass thus needs to manafacture enough damage to beat the heal.

Oath of redemption and oath of the crown are likely not far from doing this.

[Hael]

Rotten Fate does 96 damage on average. Also Why does it has a 30% chance of failure. (And why can't it just be used in the first round instead of the second)

A DC of 22 vs a Pegasus with +3 (and +4 from the aura in my example) gives a 70% chance of hitting. This won't kill the Pegasus outright. Vecna needs to spend a round casting flight to actually get in melee range, so the Pegasus survives one round of Vecna guaranteed unless Vecna is prebuffed..

To peoples complaints.

Yes Vecna can scry. I know this perfectly well. He would almost assuredly have the geometry such that an undead army is in front of him and screening, so a Pegasus charge likely eats a lot of opportunity attacks (and potential grapples). He also has planeshift, and his absolute best move is to planeshift on the first opportunity, wait out what his army does (and summon new ones) and come back when things are ill prepared for a fight.

But thats kinda missing the point of this little thought exercise. I don't want to get into all the combat as war possibilities (and counter possibilities) that each side can do. It assumes the player hasn't done anything similar (like paying a wizard to also scry and coming prepared to counter that sort of thing with magic items etc).

[JNAProductions]

A DC of 22 vs a Pegasus with +3 (and +4 from the aura in my example) gives a 70% chance of hitting. This won't kill the Pegasus outright. Vecna needs to spend a round casting flight to actually get in melee range, so the Pegasus survives one round of Vecna guaranteed unless Vecna is prebuffed..

To peoples complaints.

Yes Vecna can scry. I know this perfectly well. He would almost assuredly have the geometry such that an undead army is in front of him and screening, so a Pegasus charge likely eats a lot of opportunity attacks (and potential grapples). He also has planeshift, and his absolute best move is to planeshift on the first opportunity, wait out what his army does (and summon new ones) and come back when things are ill prepared for a fight.

But thats kinda missing the point of this little thought exercise. I don't want to get into all the combat as war possibilities (and counter possibilities) that each side can do. It assumes the player hasn't done anything similar (like paying a wizard to also scry and coming prepared to counter that sort of thing with magic items etc).

You say "Unless Vecna is prebuffed" when you assume the Paladin gets prebuffed, including with a one minute duration buff.

It'd make a lot more sense if Vecna was prebuffed and the Paladin wasn't-not with anything that short duration, at least.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Hael, using Ludic’s sheet, assuming a 5th level smite on the B/A attack, and 4th level smites on the other three attacks, plus GWM and GWF still doesn’t result in replicating your numbers.

Are you presuming Advantage?

Using your proposed strategy, the Paladin has to kill Vecna in two rounds, else risk having not having enough resources to finish the job.

Round 1 the Paladin has expended all their 4th level slots, and half of their 5th level slots.

Vecna is going to heal at least 70 HPs per turn. See Invisibility is not a spell in a single class Conquest Paladin’s repertoire.

Vecna can conceivably ‘Rope a Dope’ the Paladin.
Round 1 Paladin blows most of their high end Smite Resources.
Round 2 Vecna turns Invisible, proceeds to use Vile Teleport, which as an ability gives no indication that it is a spell. Consequently, Invisibility is not canceled.

I think your scenario, Hael, is fairly close to Best Case territory.

If the solo Paladin has luck on their side, and rolls high damage with a Critical Hit or two…perhaps.

[JNAProductions]

What's the exact Paladin build? I can double-check the math.

[Rafaelfras]

I like how the argument devolved into ditching the party altogether and now we are trying to kill Vecna with just 1 character.

[animorte]

I like how the argument devolved into ditching the party altogether and now we are trying to kill Vecna with just 1 character.

Yup, for those that felt it looks too easy. Everybody loves testing their limits. Not that it's relevant, but this is exactly how I figured out an interesting Rock<Paper<Scissors = Tiamat<Barbarian<Tarrasque.

[ecarden]

A DC of 22 vs a Pegasus with +3 (and +4 from the aura in my example) gives a 70% chance of hitting. This won't kill the Pegasus outright.

If the Pegasus saves, it won't die outright, though half damage almost kills it. But you're forgetting Vecna's other move options, including the reaction teleport. Vecna can basically guarantee dead Pegasus by adding lightning bolt on top, or a few stabs, then teleport 30 feet away, walk 30 more feet away and you're screwed.

ETA: Note, I misread his multiattack, it's one of the first three options, not all 3 options. So, just ignore that bit. I think he's probably better off DD 500 feet away and prepping as you approach, under that structure, though dominate monster on the pegasus and send it up and away sort of screws the paladin too.

[Hael]

On this note, what classes would best stand up to Vecna solo?

At high optimization levels. Likely a number of classes. Races like the Shadar Kai are going to do really well against him. Archers are going to do really well against him (gloomstalkers/fighters/hexbows/kensais/various sorlock/hexvoker type things).

Wizards/Bards/arcana clerics and Sorcerors will annihilate him with wish/shapechange/true polymorph/simulacrum type things given enough prep work.

Moon druids probably do well. Paladins...

The primary threat of the statblock is against low dpr or low nova classes with limited movement and melee (so clerics are going to struggle somewhat)..

[Hael]

Are you presuming Advantage?

.

Hey Mojo. Just to be clear.. we have 1d10 + 9d8 + 6 for 3 attacks. 12 to hit against AC 18. GWM and GWF style are both clicked. Then we have one additional BA attack. 1d4 + 9d8 + 6. No advantage. No power attack. My sheet says 198 dpr. Can you confirm? Im using v2.51.

Smite slots will be a problem. one 5th lvl slot is used for holy weapon. So that leaves 1 5th and 3 4th (i used 4 4ths instead of a fifth and 3 4s). On round 2 the paladin will lose 3 3rds and a 2nd) (thats a loss of about 5d8 damage from r1 to r2, but it wasn't enough to prevent Vecnas death).

The Paladins biggest problem ultimately is getting kited.. Most of the war phase will be on how to best prepare for that eventuality (having additional mounts on the ground seems like a good idea).

[JNAProductions]

+12 to-hit against AC 18 means that you hit on a 6+. That's a 65% hit rate, 10% crit rate, and a 25% miss rate.

Each hit does 52 damage, at 1d10+9d8+6. A crit does 98.
BA Attack does 49, 92 on a crit.

3(.65*52+.1*98)+(.65*49+.1*92) is the formula.

Which only gets 171.85 damage. How are you getting 20 more?

[Anymage]

But thats kinda missing the point of this little thought exercise. I don't want to get into all the combat as war possibilities (and counter possibilities) that each side can do. It assumes the player hasn't done anything similar (like paying a wizard to also scry and coming prepared to counter that sort of thing with magic items etc).

Even ignoring CAW vs. CAS, Vecna as a boss monster is something you're most likely to find towards the end of the adventuring day. As such, you're unlikely to have a full complement of resources. And that's before asking questions like the optimization level of both sides. The actual playtest results focused on action denial, and if an enemy can't take actions against you then it's just a matter of wearing it down.

I could see the point of a theoretical build designed to OTK Vecna before he can get off more than one reaction, since optimal nova DPS is intriguing in its own right. Hoping for a very specific set of circumstances to nerf him, though (you get to come in with effects while he's unprepared and just sitting in a white room, and all that happens is that you trade blows until someone hits 0HP) seems like placing your thumb on the scale pretty hard, however.

[Hael]

+12 to-hit against AC 18 means that you hit on a 6+. That's a 65% hit rate, 10% crit rate, and a 25% miss rate.

Each hit does 52 damage, at 1d10+9d8+6. A crit does 98.
BA Attack does 49, 92 on a crit.

3(.65*52+.1*98)+(.65*49+.1*92) is the formula.

Which only gets 171.85 damage. How are you getting 20 more?

You need to take into account GWF (and the GWM crit but thats only like 1 dpr here). Its 172.5 dpr without it, 198dpr with it

[Angelalex242]

Well...

This becomes infinitely easier with a Paladin and his Diviner Wizard pal.

"I foresee you getting 2 crit smites."

That'll do it, presuming Holy Avenger (because if you're going up against Vecna, you're not leaving home without it), and blowing every 5th level spell slot you have, including using a Banishing Smite to double up on smite damage.

[JNAProductions]

You need to take into account GWF (and the GWM crit but thats only like 1 dpr here). Its 172.5 dpr without it, 198dpr with it

Didn't Sage Advice clarify that that's only on the weapon damage, not extra dice from Smites and Sneak Attack and the like?

[Angelalex242]

As I recall, the dice are doubled (That's why Paladins and rogues love crits), but the bonus damage from strength and GWM is not, which makes fighters and barbarians sad.

[JNAProductions]

As I recall, the dice are doubled (That's why Paladins and rogues love crits), but the bonus damage from strength and GWM is not, which makes fighters and barbarians sad.

GWF is RR1s and RR2s for damage.
Crits are double all dice.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Hey Mojo. Just to be clear.. we have 1d10 + 9d8 + 6 for 3 attacks. 12 to hit against AC 18. GWM and GWF style are both clicked. Then we have one additional BA attack. 1d4 + 9d8 + 6. No advantage. No power attack. My sheet says 198 dpr. Can you confirm? Im using v2.51..

202.3 is the result on my end. Same version. Interesting.
One concern with bringing spare mounts, is it increases the number of potential targets for the healing buffet that is Vile Teleport.

The other issue with mounts is there is a good chance that a Conquest Paladin’s mount is going to be Frightened of Vecna, after a use of Flight of the Damned.

The Paladin, should just bring a friend with them, and resist the temptation of being a solo act.🃏

[Hael]

Even ignoring CAW vs. CAS, Vecna as a boss monster is something you're most likely to find towards the end of the adventuring day.

Sure I dont disagree (although the playtest material didnt really include extras for the party to deal with). I mean the scenario of a solitary pc going up against a legendary lich is rather ridiculous in a team based game, and if it was to happen there would be endless scouting reports and every preperation would be completed. The PC would likely have some sort of DM granted artifact etc etc.

The point was to stress the statblock mechanically, and to show that its already stressed against a single relatively pedestrian (by optimization standards) monoclass with relatively straight forward Nova. If it struggles against this, then its probably not ideal for a real party of 3 or 4 pcs with actually strong magic items, like what you would see in a real campaign.

I know of several groups on discord who have been reporting similar results (Vecna dead on round 2), and it just seems pretty clear to me that the design team undershot the hitpoint threshold for some reason. Most of the other CR 26 monsters have nearly double the hitpoint values, I donÂ’t really understand what made them so heavily value Vecnas heal.

[Angelalex242]

A mount is obviously within the Paladin's auras, so the mount is getting his save bonus, anti charm (if Devotion), anti magic (if Ancients) anti fear, and so on.

[Thunderous Mojo]

A mount is obviously within the Paladin's auras, so the mount is getting his save bonus, anti charm (if Devotion), anti magic (if Ancients) anti fear, and so on.

Many posts have referenced using a Pegasus as a mount, which only has a +3 Constitution Saving Throw. Boosting that Saving Throw bonus to a +8, against the DC 22 of Vecna’s Flight of the Damned, certainly helps, but does not bring the likelihood of success on the Saving Throw up to a certainty.