Random Banter #239 - Now 50% more tangible!

[Fyraltari]

If the instinct to fear things that register as "like us but not us" wasn't necessary at some point it either would have been discarded as an evolutionary chafe or it would be a random quirk resent in some but not most of the population like a third nipple or the ability to fold your tongue depending on whether or not it was actively detrimental.

Tell that to your appendix.

More seriously, humans are social creatures the ability to understand the humans around you is essential to us functionnong well. And as long as that's true, we'll be uneasy when presented with human(-like beings) we can't "read" on an instinctual level.

Besides this isn't a single factor thing. We've got many, many thought processes constantly assessing, classifying, filing the things around us and updating all thise judgement calls.

There's a great book about the mental mecanisms that forms beliefs, whose title I'll find once my laundry is done, that goes into details about how the complicated and contradictory emotions one feels in the presence of a corpse arise from those mecanisms working at cross-purposes (for exemple, you've got the "social reliationships" part of your mind going "that's dad, you love him!", the part that's determining agency going "that's an unmoving object" and the part that's on the look-out for poisonous dangers going "that's a source of pollutants! Get rid of it before it taints your food!" and many others going on all at once) creating a paradox.

[Form]

In other news: Juan Vasquez* is slowly dying. I may have overwatered him. For a while it seemed like he was doing pretty well, but he's lost some major stalks and is now just withering away.

RIP Juan. You deserved a better master. :(

*My potted plant. Yes, I named my potted plant. He was preceded by Bob the Yucca. Who likely drowned.

[Rater202]

Tell that to your appendix.

1: It is now commonly believed that the appendix serves the purpose of storing a reservoir of beneficial gut flora so that our systems have a base culture to reboot from if our tracts have to be flushed or something.

2: Even if the appendix is purely vestigial, it should be noted that evidence strongly suggests that it is much smaller now than its predecessor organ would have been, indicating that once it became unnecessary the majority of it was cut as chafe over time. Whatever's left is just what wasn't worth the effort of getting rid of, if you'll excuse the oversimplification of evolutionary processes.

[halfeye]

1: It is now commonly believed that the appendix serves the purpose of storing a reservoir of beneficial gut flora so that our systems have a base culture to reboot from if our tracts have to be flushed or something.

2: Even if the appendix is purely vestigial, it should be noted that evidence strongly suggests that it is much smaller now than its predecessor organ would have been, indicating that once it became unnecessary the majority of it was cut as chafe over time. Whatever's left is just what wasn't worth the effort of getting rid of, if you'll excuse the oversimplification of evolutionary processes.

Or it could be that appendicitis is a way to give predators the false impression that humans taste foul.

[Rater202]

Or it could be that appendicitis is a way to give predators the false impression that humans taste foul.

I don't know if you're joking or not, but there;'s evidence to suggest that a number of predators find the taste or smell of humans unpleasant in general.

[Metastachydium]

That's not a lack facial recognition, that's a lack of sense of self. Most animals don't recognize themselves in a mirror, and it tends to be a really big deal when we discover an animal does. Last I heard dolphins are right on the cusp of it, which would make four species total, of all the ones we've tested. Until then, it's only three - humans, chimps, and another primate, I forget which.

Magpies can do it too. (Primates are overrated.)

In other news: Juan Vasquez* is slowly dying. I may have overwatered him. For a while it seemed like he was doing pretty well, but he's lost some major stalks and is now just withering away.

RIP Juan. You deserved a better master. :(

*My potted plant. Yes, I named my potted plant. He was preceded by Bob the Yucca. Who likely drowned.

Oh no. There must be something one can do about that! (Anyhow, my sympathies (and no, naming planties is not weird at all)!)

[Jasdoif]

Besides this isn't a single factor thing. We've got many, many thought processes constantly assessing, classifying, filing the things around us and updating all thise judgement calls.

Indeed. My personal theory is that the human mind doesn't treat "human" and "not human" as a dichotomy on the instinctive level; both categories are an amalgamation of impressions, geared towards failing positive....Which makes the uncanny valley effect the cognitive dissonance when trying to reconcile something categorized as both "human" and "not human".

[Fyraltari]

1: It is now commonly believed that the appendix serves the purpose of storing a reservoir of beneficial gut flora so that our systems have a base culture to reboot from if our tracts have to be flushed or something.

2: Even if the appendix is purely vestigial, it should be noted that evidence strongly suggests that it is much smaller now than its predecessor organ would have been, indicating that once it became unnecessary the majority of it was cut as chafe over time. Whatever's left is just what wasn't worth the effort of getting rid of, if you'll excuse the oversimplification of evolutionary processes.

Cool.

You going to reply to the part of the post that wasn't a joke?

[Peelee]

Magpies can do it too. (Primates are overrated.)

IIRC while some magpies, dolphins, and elephants can, only primates can do it reliably.

Heck, even crows can't, and they're full-on tool makers. Not just tool users, but tool makers. And can readily identify different humans. And even they aren't up to snuff on the mirror front.

[Rater202]

Cool.

You going to reply to the part of the post that wasn't a joke?

Why? I've given my argument and received yours, and there is really no means of deciding which one of us is right, if either.

If the discussion were to continue at this point it would jst be explaining two differant theories over and over again until one of us gets frustrated and gives up.

And I've already acknowledged that the "primeval mimic predator" theory is not the only explanation or even necessarily the most likely, just one I think makes sense so there's really no stake here.

[Anonymouswizard]

An alternative theory for all of this: when your design process for an animal is 'throw random stuff at the environment and see what sticks' you're going to get some glitches. These range from the uncanny valley stuff to 'oversized tonsils and hay fever in the same unit'.

There isn't any scary Blindsight-style vampires in history. Or at least there probably weren't. Humans are just poorly built.

[Rater202]

An alternative theory for all of this: when your design process for an animal is 'throw random stuff at the environment and see what sticks' you're going to get some glitches. These range from the uncanny valley stuff to 'oversized tonsils and hay fever in the same unit'.

There isn't any scary Blindsight-style vampires in history. Or at least there probably weren't. Humans are just poorly built.

Again, the uncanny valley effect has been observed in apes and moneys, not just humans.

So if the mimic-predator theory is correct it wouldn't have been a human-mimic, it would have been a predator mimicking a primate common ancestor, a proto-monkey if you will.

Which is much more plausible than doppelgangers.

[Anonymouswizard]

Again, the uncanny valley effect has been observed in apes and moneys, not just humans.

So if the mimic-predator theory is correct it wouldn't have been a human-mimic, it would have been a predator mimicking a primate common ancestor, a proto-monkey if you will.

Which is much more plausible than doppelgangers.

Or, hear me out, it's a glitch that cropped up when primate species diverged. Suddenly there was monkey and ape, and both were just wrong enough that they messed up their Primate Identification Adaptations. Then eventually they were different enough not to cause these issues.

That, to me, sounds more plausible than 'ye eons ago there was a proto-monkey, and it was hinted by a species that could almost perfectly imitate proto-monkies'.

[Peelee]

Again, the uncanny valley effect has been observed in apes and moneys, not just humans.

So if the mimic-predator theory is correct it wouldn't have been a human-mimic, it would have been a predator mimicking a primate common ancestor, a proto-monkey if you will.

Which is much more plausible than doppelgangers.

And is less plausible if said monkeys are less related to us than apes which do not experience this and are more closely related to us. Which sounds like it may be the case, since you keep saying "monkey" instead of "ape" and you tend to be pretty precise with specifics.

[Mokèlé-mbèmbé]

I wonder if RPG sourcebooks would make decent improvised weapons in their own games. The Pathfinder one could probably crack a few 'eads.

[Rater202]

And is less plausible if said monkeys are less related to us than apes which do not experience this and are more closely related to us. Which sounds like it may be the case, since you keep saying "monkey" instead of "ape" and you tend to be pretty precise with specifics.

....I mentioned apes in the post you just quoted.

[Mokèlé-mbèmbé]

I feel like Charlton Heston in this conversation rn. Only, you know, a much nicer Charlton Heston.

[Anonymouswizard]

I wonder if RPG sourcebooks would make decent improvised weapons in their own games. The Pathfinder one could probably crack a few 'eads.

I've got a few with heft. I think the Pathfinder 2e one might be the best bludgeon, it's heavier than Anima: Beyond Fantasy and while thinner than Chuubo's Marvelous Wish Granting Engine it feels heavier. Although that might be because my copy of Chuubo's is on fairly light paper.

[Mokèlé-mbèmbé]

I've got a few with heft. I think the Pathfinder 2e one might be the best bludgeon, it's heavier than Anima: Beyond Fantasy and while thinner than Chuubo's Marvelous Wish Granting Engine it feels heavier. Although that might be because my copy of Chuubo's is on fairly light paper.

The D&D ones lack weight, but if you aimed the corners just right it could do some damage.

[Rater202]

Changing subjects.

Part of me really wants to do a series of stories based around deconstructing various cliches found in certain kinds of literature that are based on poor understanding of things or bunk science.

Like, a story about a pack of Werewolves who deliberately model themselves on that debunked study about wolf-behavior that coined the "alpha-beta-omega terminology." TL/DR, it's basically the wolf equivalent of prison rules.

The story make it clear that there are no instincts or supernatural compulsions making them form up this way, it's just that the founders of the pack are really ignorant about how wolves work, buy into the alpha male philosophy, or are just on the anti-social side to begin with.

And it ends with most of the pack getting slaughtered by the designated "Omega" because he's just fed up with getting the crap kicked out of him every time "High-Lord Alpha" failed to convince some girl he met at a bar to come back to his sex-tarp.

Probably using methods that the rest of the pack consider beneath them and arbitrarily refuse to use. Like guns.

Bonus points, at the end it's established that "packs" don't actually exist except in the minds of delusional wannabe badasses, other werewolves either live as and among normal humans or else in secretive, close-knit communities modeled on healthy extended family dynamics and nobody using animal-based terms like "pack" or "alpha" because "we are men and women, not basic beasts."

Just as a direct response to just how many werewolf stories out there there are that just don't get how wolves work or try to cram (inaccurate) wolf psychology into a human mind.

[Peelee]

Changing subjects.

Part of me really wants to do a series of stories based around deconstructing various cliches found in certain kinds of literature that are based on poor understanding of things or bunk science.

Like, a story about a pack of Werewolves who deliberately model themselves on that debunked study about wolf-behavior that coined the "alpha-beta-omega terminology." TL/DR, it's basically the wolf equivalent of prison rules.

......

Bonus points, at the end it's established that "packs" don't actually exist except in the minds of delusional wannabe badasses, other werewolves either live as and among normal humans or else in secretive, close-knit communities modeled on healthy extended family dynamics and nobody using animal-based terms like "pack" or "alpha" because "we are men and women, not basic beasts."

Just as a direct response to just how many werewolf stories out there there are that just don't get how wolves work or try to cram (inaccurate) wolf psychology into a human mind.

That sounds kind of neat! A straightforward deconstruction of common misconceptions but with social commentary on the effects that has on peo-

And it ends with most of the pack getting slaughtered by the designated "Omega" because he's just fed up with getting the crap kicked out of him every time "High-Lord Alpha" failed to convince some girl he met at a bar to come back to his sex-tarp.

And now it just sounds like revenge fantasy.

[halfeye]

So if the mimic-predator theory is correct it wouldn't have been a human-mimic, it would have been a predator mimicking a primate common ancestor, a proto-monkey if you will.

The main predators of humans have long been humans, the uncanny valley is just something failing the "is this stranger-human lying to me?" test really hard.

[enderlord99]

The main predators of humans have long been humans

I thought the main predators of humans were polar-bears and one particular subspecies of tiger. Is cannibalism seriously that common for Homo Sapiens?

[Peelee]

I thought the main predators of humans were polar-bears and one particular subspecies of tiger. Is cannibalism seriously that common for Homo Sapiens?

If you want to limit predator to one who preys on other animals, them the main predator of humans - and, frankly, most mammals - is the mighty mosquito.

[enderlord99]

If you want to limit predator to one who preys on other animals, them the main predator of humans - and, frankly, most mammals - is the mighty mosquito.

I guess it depends on how you define "predator"

[Rater202]

That sounds kind of neat! A straightforward deconstruction of common misconceptions but with social commentary on the effects that has on peo-

And now it just sounds like revenge fantasy.

I'm going to mention off-hand that that was deliberatly exaggerated for the sake of illustration rather than how it would go down if I actually wrote this.

Mostly that was a me trying to figure out 1: what kind of anti-social weirdos would deliberately set up their club like this and 2: Okay, how does the designated punching bag of this group react to this once he's pushed past his breaking point.

And I don't particularly care for tragedies so the designated punching bad submitting to Stockholm syndrome is a no-go for me, so that leaves "try to escape" and "try to receive justice or vengeance for thew wrongs done to me."

If I actually wrote this I'd have to outline it some and probably go through a number of revisions.

In my head, the story is from "Alpha's" perspective and he's just... The kind of person who is a dispicalble human being but has such a warped perspective on how the world works that they don't realize that they're a despicable human being.

Full-on villain protagonist, clear cut from the first paragraph.

The "omega" is someone who he deliberatly infected with Lycanthropy and forced to join the pack specifically to have a designated punching bad like in a "real" wolf pack.

Omega seeking revenge comes out of nowhere simply becuase Alpha doesn't have the empathy to consider that Omega might not like being the designated whipping boy of a club h was forced to join or even think to consider that Omega might be a threat or would consider methods of doing so that Alpha would not.

Probably some lines about how "The Omega tried to leave the pack, but we quickly broke him of those habits" which the "alpha" takes to have meant that he learned his place but was in actually the Omega realizing that if he wanted to escape he'd need to bide his time until the best opportunity to employ violence to dispose of his captors.

Going to the police isn't exactly an option after all. "I was kidnapped and infected by werewolves" and "I am a werewolf" are the kinds of things that at best get you laughed at and at worst get you in a psychiatric facility... Unless you prove it, in which case there's a non-zero chance you'll get shot by the armed person you just tuned into a wolf in front of.

To emphasize the deconstruction, the "Omega" of the "Pack" was probably a family man and he's doing this in part becuase he thinks that killing the "Alpha "and the other embers of the "pack" is the only way he can go home to his family without them coming after him... Though, admittedly, he's probably badly damaged, mentally speaking, by the ordeal and might not be thinking straight.

Alpha's pack being way the hell off from how most werewolves function as a society would probably come in an epilog

I thought the main predators of humans were polar-bears and one particular subspecies of tiger. Is cannibalism seriously that common for Homo Sapiens?

Surprisingly, yes.

It's frankly disturbing how quickly a human being will resort to killing and eating another human if food is scarce enough.

Often well before they're at risk of death by starvation.

---

Unrelated: Sugar free Reeses cups are good but have a bit of a bitter aftertaste.

[halfeye]

I thought the main predators of humans were polar-bears and one particular subspecies of tiger. Is cannibalism seriously that common for Homo Sapiens?

I was thinking cause of death, more than eater of the flesh. For killers of men, there's nothing that comes close to man himself, though covid's certainly moving up the rankings.

[Qwertystop]

The uncanny valley thing also works for noticing disfiguring diseases, distinguishing fresh corpses from people who are sleeping or looking at something in the distance, and other such things that can happen to people that might make it a good idea (from the selfish perspective) to avoid them or treat them with caution. Too pale, or an odd color or pattern on the skin, or not breathing.

[Rater202]

The uncanny valley thing also works for noticing disfiguring diseases, distinguishing fresh corpses from people who are sleeping or looking at something in the distance, and other such things that can happen to people that might make it a good idea (from the selfish perspective) to avoid them or treat them with caution. Too pale, or an odd color or pattern on the skin, or not breathing.

Okay, see, this is a compelling argument that had not previously occurred to me and that I have no counter for.

This is making me revise my opinion on the most likely explanation.

[enderlord99]

I was thinking cause of death, more than eater of the flesh. For killers of men, there's nothing that comes close to man himself, though covid's certainly moving up the rankings.

Plasmodium falciparum has killed roughly 60% of all humans who have ever lived. That's a lot more than Homo Sapiens has.