Random Banter #239 - Now 50% more tangible!

[Jasdoif]

Probably just lost in translation then. I equated it with "junk philosopher", but I can easily see how I'd think differently with a lesser known person.

That's more accurate yeah. My intended meaning is "there is nothing of value here".

Ah. I feel like there's a useful distinction to be made between "nothing" as in "this is a distraction, right?", and "****" as in "it may be that its best use is to serve as a warning to others".

Since my attempt to see if someone else wanted to talk about Bioshock failed, I guess I'll add that scraping the most value out of Objectivism involves viewing it as satire, of large hierarchies diffusing ethical culpability under layers of abstraction.

Yeah, I agree, it is great here in the Pacific Northwest.

It is pretty nice this side of the Cascades; I'm currently enjoying the break from the 100°F/38°C afternoon weather of the past few weeks.

[Peelee]

Since my attempt to see if someone else wanted to talk about Bioshock failed

I was going to but someone asked if I would kindly refrain.

[LaZodiac]

Ah. I feel like there's a useful distinction to be made between "nothing" as in "this is a distraction, right?", and "****" as in "it may be that its best use is to serve as a warning to others".

Since my attempt to see if someone else wanted to talk about Bioshock failed, I guess I'll add that scraping the most value out of Objectivism involves viewing it as satire, of large hierarchies diffusing ethical culpability under layers of abstraction.

It is pretty nice this side of the Cascades; I'm currently enjoying the break from the 100°F/38°C afternoon weather of the past few weeks.

Entirely fair but I'm having a rougher day at work than usual, so no brain power for more nuance at the time I posted that. Ultimately I do think Randian philosophy is a good example of what a bad, corruptive sort of philosophy is- but there's so many better examples of that that I don't think one miserable lady's musing about how everyone is a parasite but her is all that relevant, in the grand scheme of things.

Bioshock rules! Very good series of games with writing that is quite clever, but thinks it is ingeniously clever. I'm not sure which of them is the best, because all of them have really excellent moments (basically anything involving Sander Cohen, a lot of the aesthetic of Columbia, the Big Sister design) but also a lot of absolute garbage (while I admit it is a literal act of iconoclasm I think Atlas becoming a gigantic statue of himself is ridiculous, Bioshock 2 has the best writing when it's good but is such a drag to play, and Infinite's brutally stupid "the oppressed would be the oppressors if they won" segment is a black stain on a fascinating story).

[Fyraltari]

I was going to but someone asked if I would kindly refrain.

Did it shock your system?

EDIT: I have never played Bioshock, but I have played Prey and Dishonored and plans on playing Deus Ex in the near future so I feel like I can sysnthesize the experience of having played Bioshock.

[LaZodiac]

Did it shock your system?

EDIT: I have never played Bioshock, but I have played Prey and Dishonored and plans on playing Deus Ex in the near future so I feel like I can sysnthesize the experience of having played Bioshock.

Just imagine those but with more prohibition era dress and the monsters are a bit more random in the stuff they say and you've basically got the idea.

[Peelee]

Did it shock your system?

EDIT: I have never played Bioshock, but I have played Prey and Dishonored and plans on playing Deus Ex in the near future so I feel like I can sysnthesize the experience of having played Bioshock.

I hate first-person shooters and I hate the horror genre. Bioshock is a horror FPS, and is one of my favorite games ever.

Just sayin'.

Also the wrench was the best weapon in the game. I will die on this hill.

[Jasdoif]

Also the wrench was the best weapon in the game. I will die on this hill.

No, you shall live on.

Is the player not entitled to the sweat of their brow? “No,” says the man with the guns, “ammo must be bought.” “No,” says the splicer, “EVE must be bought.” “No,” says the hacking-adverse guy, “machines must be bought out.” I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the efficient. I chose....

Wrench-Fu Ninjary

[Peelee]

No, you shall live on.

Is the player not entitled to the sweat of their brow? “No,” says the man with the guns, “ammo must be bought.” “No,” says the splicer, “EVE must be bought.” “No,” says the hacking-adverse guy, “machines must be bought out.” I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the efficient. I chose....

Wrench-Fu Ninjary

The was beautiful. I may have cried.

Also, in a similar vein, Brunout Paradise's best all around car was the Hunter Cavalry. Special runs need special vehicles but they start you in the GOAT.

[Rater202]

I like the little sisters.

Everything aboout their character designs and behavior is just the right combination of cute and creepy to really emphasize how absolutly ****ed up it is that they exist in the first place.

[Fyraltari]

I like the little sisters.

Everything aboout their character designs and behavior is just the right combination of cute and creepy to really emphasize how absolutly ****ed up it is that they exist in the first place.

And I dream of the sea,
Broken machinery...
And I dream of the sea,
There's no Rapture for me.

Little Sister, you're all that I know.

[Rater202]

This week in comics: After Krakoa's ability to resurrect dead mutants was revealed to the world, they suddenly got a lot of flack for various reasons.

In Today's X-Force, a group of protestors are outside one of their gates threatening violence and have captured Angel as a hostage. Most of them are holding protesting the mutants for playing God or claiming "no death, no point" or something like that...

...But two of them just want them to bring back Elvis and Tolkien, respectively.

Spoiler

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Bonus Irony points: Elvis is still alive in the Marvel Universe, the guy who died on the toilet was a Skrull infiltrator. The real Elvis was given back to Earth after Secret Invasion and is occasionally seen in background shots.

[Keltest]

The more you tell me about Marvel comics Rater, the more it sounds like some conspiracy theorist's bad fanfiction of reality.

[Rater202]

The more you tell me about Marvel comics Rater, the more it sounds like some conspiracy theorist's bad fanfiction of reality.

I do believe that a joke about conspiracy theories was why they had Elvis be among a number of alien abductees being returned to earth, yes.

This isn't even the tip of the iceberg of this ****, friend.

[Anonymouswizard]

The more you tell me about Marvel comics Rater, the more it sounds like some conspiracy theorist's bad fanfiction of reality.

There's a reason I refuse to touch anything more mainstream than Image. Even then I've only picked up two series so far.


I tried to play Shadowrun: Hong Kong today. I'm not sure why, I had issues reading it before my operation.

[Rater202]

Look, you kind of have to tnr off your brain when it omes to superhero comics. There's planety of stuff to analize but you need to be going in with suspension of disbeleif.

A lot of crap is grandfathered in from the 50s and 60s, too, so a lot of this is just trying to make sense of stuff that was written back before certain things were common knowledge.

...Though some stuff from back then actually makes more sense now than it did back then. Mutants being the "next step" in human evolution simply becuase they were born with super powers barely made sense by a 60s understanding of evolutionary science.

Spoiler

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However, over the years more things about how mutants work have been explained.

1: Mutant powers come from a specific gene-complex that has a number of variations. This gene complex is present in all humans but only activates in some of them, and was planted in the human Genome by the Celestials at the same time they engineered the Eternals and Deviants.

2: This complex has a number of effects other than merely mutant super powers: Mutants are physically tougher, stronger, and heartier than baseline humans to a small but noticeable degree, they are immune to certain viral and bacterial infections, they process drugs and alcohol faster and more efficiently to a noticeable degree, and their bodies decay at a differant rate than human tissue.

3: All modern mutants share a common ancestor in Tuk, a pre-Terrigen Inhuman, that is to say, an engineered hybrid of eternal, neanderthal, and kree.

4: The Deviants exist to absorb and metabolize the "necrofluid" or Celestial that got sick and died on Earth and then interbreed with other complex life in order to pass on a purified form of the resulting mutant potential and the ability to develop superpowers: The genetic factors that allows peope like th eHulk or Spider-Man to get powers instead of cancer from radiation comes from Deviant ancestry.

5: All modern humans have deviant ancestry. Superhumans have noticeably more... And Mutants have a noticeably high concentration of deviant genes, to the point that they could arguably be considered a particularly table form of Deviant. It is implied to be this high concentration of Deviant DNA that results in the X-Gene being able to activate and the shear varity of powers and mutations present in mutants.

Thus: Modern mutants, Homo s sapiens, are literally a hybrid of almost all known human species: Homo s sapiens, Homo descendus, and Inhomo supremis—and through Inhomo supremis, Homo s neaderthalus and Homo imortalus.

So an argument can be made that modern mutants are the next step in human evolution simply becuase they are the culmination of all human life up tot his point.

The only human species on earth who aren't mutant ancestors are Modern Inhumans(who have engineered the crap out themselves since Tuk's lineage branched off) and Homo mermanus who are themselves an of shoot of mutants and are known to interbreed with baseline humans and other mutants so...

[Peelee]

Look, you kind of have to turn off your brain when it comes to superhero comics.

However, over the years more things about how mutants work have been explained. [lengthy, incredibly detailed explanation]

These two things seem diametrically opposed to each other.

[Rater202]

These two things seem diametrically opposed to each other.

I did say kind of.

There are exceptions, things that do make a degree of sense.

[Keltest]

I did say kind of.

There are exceptions, things that do make a degree of sense.

To put it bluntly, I think you are being overly generous here.

[Peelee]

I did say kind of.

You did, but dude, there is nothing "kind of" turning your brain off about that multi-paragraph, bullet pointed list of incredibly specific details that have, at best, the barest passing relevance on the stories. That is the antithesis of "turn your brain off".

[Rater202]

You did, but dude, there is nothing "kind of" turning your brain off about that multi-paragraph, bullet pointed list of incredibly specific details that have, at best, the barest passing relevance on the stories. That is the antithesis of "turn your brain off".

I think there is a fundemental disconnect in what I meant by "exceptions exist" and what actually came across.

[Keltest]

I think there is a fundemental disconnect in what I meant by "exceptions exist" and what actually came across.

I'm sorry to diss something you clearly enjoy, but frankly, Marvel lore is absolutely bonkers and it makes no logical sense in the slightest, not even its own internal logic.

[Rater202]

I'm sorry to diss something you clearly enjoy, but frankly, Marvel lore is absolutely bonkers and it makes no logical sense in the slightest, not even its own internal logic.

It does if you obsessively binge years of history at a time on a regular basis and cross-reference bits and pieces of it to make sure of what is and is not a retcon.

[DataNinja]

...and to the rest of it, it really is just meaningless gobbledygook, if I'm being honest. Goes straight in one ear and out the other. I don't feel like there's anyone here who can (and/or wants to) understand or interact with that stuff on the level you might want.

[Jasdoif]

Bioshock rules! Very good series of games with writing that is quite clever, but thinks it is ingeniously clever. I'm not sure which of them is the best, because all of them have really excellent moments (basically anything involving Sander Cohen, a lot of the aesthetic of Columbia, the Big Sister design) but also a lot of absolute garbage (while I admit it is a literal act of iconoclasm I think Atlas becoming a gigantic statue of himself is ridiculous, Bioshock 2 has the best writing when it's good but is such a drag to play, and Infinite's brutally stupid "the oppressed would be the oppressors if they won" segment is a black stain on a fascinating story).

The first Bioshock is clearly the best; it's the one that shows the developing character of Tenenbaum. All of Bioshock is the story of dispassionate self-interest pushed past the breaking point of everyone involved, and she broke towards morality instead of away from it. The Atlas boss fight is often (and deservedly) criticized and easily one of the two worst parts of the game, the other being how the implementation of the Proving Grounds mandates an endless supply of Little Sisters, reducing them to "supply" status; but I can accept that writing satisfying endings can be really hard. (Maybe if Atlas actually shrugged, it'd at least have been mildly amusing....)

Bioshock 2 is a (fairly) close second. Like you say, the writing is very good when it's good; but while I think the combat mechanics are improved, the whole "wave defense" thing being forced is very offputting. Also I miss the ability to go back to previous levels. All in all it feels more linear and less cohesive than Bioshock did....

...which brings me neatly to how much I dislike Bioshock Infinite.

Spoiler: Long-ish Bioshock Infinite Complaints

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I think it started for me in the police station impound. The whole "darn, there's no way we can carry this stuff out...Look, there's an opening to another reality, let's go through it...Hurray, the stuff's not here-here so we must have already done it, let's go get our reward" thing was just like...there's so many things wrong with this. Even if that wasn't an incredible convenience followed by an unjustified leap of assumption pretending to be logic, was this Booker intending to rob the other Booker who presumably had already gotten the reward from actually doing the work?

Then I started noticing the real problem. The game goes to great lengths to insist that its areas are not as linear as they are, most frequently by presenting two directions that converge out of sight from the start, hoping you're not going to notice there's no exploring to be done because they've stretched their small lines into circles.

Which I suppose was intended to be symbolic of the atrocious theme they chose to tie together the story scenes with: "It is perfectly acceptable to judge you for what you could have done but didn't. Just because you didn't do it is irrelevant; it leads to the same thing." Especially jarring after the first two games have had the ending change based on your decisions throughout, you're kinda stuck here....And by "stuck here", I mean "the girl who you've spent the entire game trying to rescue, decides she needs to drown you because you could have been the guy who kidnapped her in the first place; and you're okay with this and the game portrays this as a good thing". If you've ever wondered what the opposite of the Giant's stance about portraying suicide could look like, here's an example.

[Dame_Mechanus]

It does if you obsessively binge years of history at a time on a regular basis and cross-reference bits and pieces of it to make sure of what is and is not a retcon.

As someone who actually did that for many years of her life? No. It just is kind of bonkers nonsense that only makes sense in slices, and really, that's the generous interpretation of a house of cards that's been allowed to build up over sixty-odd years with scads of people writing totally different stories that don't line up with any other stories and then handing it off to someone else to say "make sense of all of this." The one thing that for a long time made the MCU my preferred version of the characters was that it didn't suffer from nearly the continuity lockout as the comics, and that is eroding before our very eyes.

When things go well, it makes sense within the internal logic of a given story. When things go poorly, well, you wind up with runs that everyone tries to forget about. And that's fine, but trying to insist that it all makes sense and works together as a totally cohesive whole is just, well... wrong.

[Keltest]

As someone who actually did that for many years of her life? No. It just is kind of bonkers nonsense that only makes sense in slices, and really, that's the generous interpretation of a house of cards that's been allowed to build up over sixty-odd years with scads of people writing totally different stories that don't line up with any other stories and then handing it off to someone else to say "make sense of all of this." The one thing that for a long time made the MCU my preferred version of the characters was that it didn't suffer from nearly the continuity lockout as the comics, and that is eroding before our very eyes.

When things go well, it makes sense within the internal logic of a given story. When things go poorly, well, you wind up with runs that everyone tries to forget about. And that's fine, but trying to insist that it all makes sense and works together as a totally cohesive whole is just, well... wrong.

Indeed. Its possible to like something in spite of that, I wont judge. But lets not pretend that that it isnt nonsensical.

[Metastachydium]

Thus: Modern mutants, Homo s sapiens, are literally a hybrid of almost all known human species: Homo s sapiens, Homo descendus, and Inhomo supremis—and through Inhomo supremis, Homo s neaderthalus and Homo imortalus.

I think you know my opinion on Marvel stuff, so I won't bother you with it, especially since I don't mean to have you feeling like you're being piled up on. I can't help but note, however, that these alleged species names are probably the most cringeworthy things I've seen today. I mean, supremis? Descendus? Imortalus? Seriously?^♦ And that's before even getting into all the levels at which inhomo is wrong.

I mean, I don't expect these people to actually know Latin, but for the sake of all that is sacred, couldn't they have at least bought a dictionary or something? (And perhaps a textbook on the evolutionary history of humans. It's Homo (s.) neanderthalensis, for crying out loud!)


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^♦These should be supremus, descensus and immortalis, respectively.

[Rater202]

I think you know my opinion on Marvel stuff, so I won't bother you with it, especially since I don't mean to have you feeling like you're being piled up on. I can't help but note, however, that these alleged species names are probably the most cringeworthy things I've seen today. I mean, supremis? Descendus? Imortalus? Seriously?^♦ And that's before even getting into all the levels at which inhomo is wrong.

I mean, I don't expect these people to actually know Latin, but for the sake of all that is sacred, couldn't they have at least bought a dictionary or something? (And perhaps a textbook on the evolutionary history of humans. It's Homo (s.) neanderthalensis, for crying out loud!)


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^♦These should be supremus, descensus and immortalis, respectively.

I am reasonably certain that the Inhumans chose their species name themselves—it should be noted that "Homo sapiens inhumanus" has also been used but is not considered official.

It's a weird cultural thing for them that they despite the fact that they are literally uplifted cavemen that they not be considered "human." They are also rather arrogant.

Supremis and descendus are what ae used in official media when referring to Inhumans and deviants, specifically.

But mispelling Neanderthalensis and Immortalis are on me.

[Fyraltari]

Though some stuff from back then actually makes more sense now than it did back then. Mutants being the "next step" in human evolution simply becuase they were born with super powers barely made sense by a 60s understanding of evolutionary science.
[...]
So an argument can be made that modern mutants are the next step in human evolution simply becuase they are the culmination of all human life up tot his point.

No, because there isn't a "next step" in evolution. Another species may branch off and the "original" species die out or a species may divide itself into different population that diverge enough to become different species, but as long as there are H. sapiens running around, you can't say that another group of the Homo genus is their "next step".
This was known already by the 60s.

Homo mermanus

I am reasonably certain that the Inhumans chose their species name themselves—it should be noted that "Homo sapiens inhumanus" has also been used but is not considered official.

Homo isn't a species, though, it's a genus.

[Rater202]

No, because there isn't a "next step" in evolution. Another species may branch off and the "original" species die out or a species may divide itself into different population that diverge enough to become different species, but as long as there are H. sapiens running around, you can't say that another group of the Homo genus is their "next step".
This was known already by the 60s.

1: "next step" is being used very loosly here.

2: All humans contain the "mutant gene." Mutants don't exist in a vacuum, humans give birth to mutant children. The current canon is that the majority of the "human" population will be mutants within 20 years, barring another genocide, due to the fact that the rate at which humans give birth to mutant children steadily rising with each passing year.

Well what else are you going to call the merpeople? Can't just call them Atlanteans, only about half of them live in Atlantis.

Homo isn't a species, though, it's a genus.

And the genus name is part of the species name.

And apparently, the Inhumans insisted on being the only species of a human variant genus and people shrugged and said "okay, fine, whatever."