Random Banter #239 - Now 50% more tangible!

[Rater202]

Dress well, bathe regularly and interact with others on a daily basis. Everything else is a matter of attitude and time.

You see, that runs counter to my plans.

Spoiler

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[Manga Shoggoth]

I'm torn between canes and the easier to carry bracelets for my massive oparty.

You can have both - Sword-sticks/canes are a thing.

(Admittedly not legal in many places...)

[Peelee]

Today I learned that a huge amount of people didn't get the underlying theme of the entire third season of The Boys (the ends do not justify the means) and hate the finale even though it showcases what happens when you try to do it anyway. Its not throwing away all the plot lines and characterizations of the season, it's the culmination of them!

Though, to be fair, that may be a bit subtle in a show that is not known for its subtlety.

[Rater202]

Today I learned that a huge amount of people didn't get the underlying theme of the entire third season of The Boys (the ends do not justify the means) and hate the finale even though it showcases what happens when you try to do it anyway. Its not throwing away all the plot lines and characterizations of the season, it's the culmination of them!

Though, to be fair, that may be a bit subtle in a show that is not known for its subtlety.

That's a thing I've noticed: People tend to overlook subtle Theme and overfocus on anything more blatant.

Like there are so many people who hate Part II(SShuppuden) of Naruto... Because they completely misunderstood and in some cases outright ignored Neji and Lee's personal character arcs and then applied that misunderstanding to the entire serious.

Like, one time Lee says something along the lines of "even a loser can surpass a genius if he works harder" and suddenly that's a whole thing... Despite Kakashi noting that only a genius could make the kind of improvement Lee did and master the techniques, Lee mastered in so little time.

Amd Neji's entire thing is that he's an antisocial asshat because he was effectively born into slavery and can't escape it despite his natural talent and the fact that he work his ass off. He convinced himself that everything is predetermined... A worldview that gets shattered when he loses a fight with someone he'd written off as a loser due to circumstances he didn't foresee.

Peope took this to mean "oh... The themes of the entire series are that the circumstances of your birth and your natural talents are irrelevant and all that matters is hard work..."

When really the themes of the series are "the cycle of revenge just leads to more violence" and "if you want to be successful you need talent, hard work, and a good support network... Also, academic rankings are bull**** that get geniuses labled as idiots because their talents lie outside of traditional academia."

[LaZodiac]

That's a thing I've noticed: People tend to overlook subtle Theme and overfocus on anything more blatant.

Like there are so many people who hate Part II(SShuppuden) of Naruto... Because they completely misunderstood and in some cases outright ignored Neji and Lee's personal character arcs and then applied that misunderstanding to the entire serious.

Like, one time Lee says something along the lines of "even a loser can surpass a genius if he works harder" and suddenly that's a whole thing... Despite Kakashi noting that only a genius could make the kind of improvement Lee did and master the techniques, Lee mastered in so little time.

Amd Neji's entire thing is that he's an antisocial asshat because he was effectively born into slavery and can't escape it despite his natural talent and the fact that he work his ass off. He convinced himself that everything is predetermined... A worldview that gets shattered when he loses a fight with someone he'd written off as a loser due to circumstances he didn't foresee.

Peope took this to mean "oh... The themes of the entire series are that the circumstances of your birth and your natural talents are irrelevant and all that matters is hard work..."

When really the themes of the series are "the cycle of revenge just leads to more violence" and "if you want to be successful you need talent, hard work, and a good support network... Also, academic rankings are bull**** that get geniuses labled as idiots because their talents lie outside of traditional academia."

Things can have multiple themes. It's unquestionable that early Naruto had that theme, and people being upset that later half Naruto seems to discard that is a valid reason to be disappointed. It's not people missing the point, it's people noticing a difference between the first and second half of a series.

"Academic rankings are bull**** because they label geniuses as idiots because their talents lie outside of traditional academia" is a PART of that. Lee IS a loser, as far as the world is concerned, but he's a savant at taijuitsu. That doesn't change the fact that he is a loser in their society, and has to prove that the circumstances of his birth (not being able to do ninjutsu effectively) do not dfine him. He has to do a LOT of hard work to get where he is.

[Rater202]

It's unquestionable that early Naruto had that theme

Literally, the first page of the first chapter of the manga said that Naruto was special and the circumstances around his birth were very important.

That very much should have been a clue that Neji and Lee's personal this were not intended to be themes for the entire series.

[LaZodiac]

Literally, the first page of the first chapter of the manga said that Naruto was special and the circumstances around his birth were very important.

That very much should have been a clue that Neji and Lee's personal this were not intended to be themes for the entire series.

No it doesn't. Like, it genuinely doesn't! I have it here, I'm reading it.

It takes till about page 30 for Mizuki to bring up that Naruto has the Ninetails within him, and even then it's not presented as a good thing; Naruto rising above that, surpassing the circumstances of his birth, is a vital part of his character arc in the first half of the series.

[Rater202]

No it doesn't. Like, it genuinely doesn't! I have it here, I'm reading it.

...Okay, I have been misinformed... Unless the narration was changed in translations. This requires more research.

Still, considering that some peoples ay that Naruto using the Nine-Tails to beat Neji breaks the theme as i's being established...

It takes till about page 30 for Mizuki to bring up that Naruto has the Ninetails within him, and even then it's not presented as a good thing; Naruto rising above that, surpassing the circumstances of his birth, is a vital part of his character arc in the first half of the series.

I think that this part here still means that it's a lot more nuanced than a lot of people think.

People cite NAruto having "the best parents" as a thing that breaks the theme... That again, clearly isn't meant to be the series defining theme and is a lot more nuanced, while ignoring that he quite clearly inherited nothing but looks* from either parent—he does not have his father's raw, ungodly, inexplicable level of talent or his mother's power, unique abilities, or ability to survive having a monster ripped out of your soul or not instantly die from having most of her organs pulped.

He also did not inherit any material wealth from his parents for one reason or another and did not grow up with them and as such really gains nothing from them.

[Anonymouswizard]

People focus on the obvious because they don't notice the subtle or don't care about breaking media down. Sometimes they don't even care about the obvious. This can often extend to missing themes in order to focus on plot minutiae.

Like, Blindsight isn't a book about aliens, it's a book about how we can't tell how other people think. It uses nonsentient intelligent life to drive home that we can't be certain that other humans are sentient, and even if they are they might not be thinking how we would. There's also underlying issues of social isolation and losing faith in the world, as well as putting trust in those who's best interest might be to destroy you (but which sometimes works out).

Then again people can disagree on what the themes are.

[LaZodiac]

...Okay, I have been misinformed... Unless the narration was changed in translations. This requires more research.

Still, considering that some peoples ay that Naruto using the Nine-Tails to beat Neji breaks the theme as i's being established...I think that this part here still means that it's a lot more nuanced than a lot of people think.

People cite NAruto having "the best parents" as a thing that breaks the theme... That again, clearly isn't meant to be the series defining theme and is a lot more nuanced, while ignoring that he quite clearly inherited nothing but looks* from either parent—he does not have his father's raw, ungodly, inexplicable level of talent or his mother's power, unique abilities, or ability to survive having a monster ripped out of your soul or not instantly die from having most of her organs pulped.

He also did not inherit any material wealth from his parents for one reason or another and did not grow up with them and as such really gains nothing from them.

Possibly, but I only know what I know, and nothing about the first page would lean into that.

Given he has to work to use any of that ****, I feel like it's fine, but I get it. It feels off.

From what we've heard and seen, the Uzumaki also have big chakra reserves. It's why Karin is a walking medkit, as an example. He also DID master his dad's Rasengan technique pretty easily, but then that's also something he did HAVE to work for. I'll admit I've never seen too much fuss risen about his parents being super powerful, just the ninja savior stuff due to being the spiritual reincarnation of such and such, with the idea being "oh Naruto's always been destined for this".

[Rater202]

Possibly, but I only know what I know, and nothing about the first page would lean into that.

Given he has to work to use any of that ****, I feel like it's fine, but I get it. It feels off.

From what we've heard and seen, the Uzumaki also have big chakra reserves. It's why Karin is a walking medkit, as an example. He also DID master his dad's Rasengan technique pretty easily, but then that's also something he did HAVE to work for. I'll admit I've never seen too much fuss risen about his parents being super powerful, just the ninja savior stuff due to being the spiritual reincarnation of such and such, with the idea being "oh Naruto's always been destined for this".

1: Naruto's massive reserves of chakra are from the Fox. Explicitly, the eight trigrams seal is designed to leat some of the Fox' s power leak out and mix with Naruto's, stimulating hos own chakra growth over time.

2: Karin was a walking med kit because Orochimaru experimented on her. The anime gave her a backstory episode that stated it was natural power of her clan, but that was entirely contradicted by the Manga. Karin uses her healing bite on herself after she gets impaled and Orochimaru says "she was a good experiment."

3: The reincarnations tuff is especially stupid because they explain that it's not literal reincarnation. Naruto is not Asura reborn, Naruto inherited Asura's chakra because he's the most similar person to Asura among all of asura's descendant's int he current generation. It's implied that the chakras latched onto the boys during the time skip but it also could have happened during the Kage summit.

[LaZodiac]

1: Naruto's massive reserves of chakra are from the Fox. Explicitly, the eight trigrams seal is designed to leat some of the Fox' s power leak out and mix with Naruto's, stimulating hos own chakra growth over time.

2: Karin was a walking med kit because Orochimaru experimented on her. The anime gave her a backstory episode that stated it was natural power of her clan, but that was entirely contradicted by the Manga. Karin uses her healing bite on herself after she gets impaled and Orochimaru says "she was a good experiment."

3: The reincarnations tuff is especially stupid because they explain that it's not literal reincarnation. Naruto is not Asura reborn, Naruto inherited Asura's chakra because he's the most similar person to Asura among all of asura's descendant's int he current generation. It's implied that the chakras latched onto the boys during the time skip but it also could have happened during the Kage summit.

Yes, but my understanding was that he also had a lot himself. It's been awhile.

Yes, because she's an experiment. But it only works because of her massive reserve, was again my understanding. If that's wrong that's wrong, but I don't think "she is an experirment, taking adnatage of this natural ability" is a contradiction.

Fair. Ultimately I think the issue is that the back half of Naruto is just bad, so it makes some stuff stick out more.

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As per what Anonymous Wizard said; yeah, I really don't understand how someone could just... not care, about the themes of a show. It's always felt weird to me when people just don't think much about it.

[Rater202]

Fair. Ultimately I think the issue is that the back half of Naruto is just bad, so it makes some stuff stick out more.

I don't think it's bad, I think it's just a lot.

Like, there are a lot of details and moving parts that are hard to keep track of, especially if you're going one chapter at a time. I remember that people said that Kaguya sort of came out of nowhere when she was mentioned over a hundred chapters before her appearance and if you wanna stretch was foreshadowed as far back as the Chunin exams.

[LaZodiac]

I don't think it's bad, I think it's just a lot.

Like, there are a lot of details and moving parts that are hard to keep track of, especially if you're going one chapter at a time. I remember that people said that Kaguya sort of came out of nowhere when she was mentioned over a hundred chapters before her appearance and if you wanna stretch was foreshadowed as far back as the Chunin exams.

I mean, Kaguya was mentioned sure. Her being a major player right now in this conflict and also being an alien rabbit from another planet though, that's definitely out of nowhere.

And no it's bad. Sakura has her moment of "now the boys get to look at my back for once" and then the other two completely leave her in the dust anyway. The entire needless zombie section of the war that just rehashes old bits- even if some of that was done well. The ridiculous power scale, the modular eyeballs and all the bloodline limit eyeball special moves that made it an absolute mess. I followed it perfectly well, it just falls apart.

[Form]

People focus on the obvious because they don't notice the subtle or don't care about breaking media down. Sometimes they don't even care about the obvious. This can often extend to missing themes in order to focus on plot minutiae.

Like, Blindsight isn't a book about aliens, it's a book about how we can't tell how other people think. It uses nonsentient intelligent life to drive home that we can't be certain that other humans are sentient, and even if they are they might not be thinking how we would. There's also underlying issues of social isolation and losing faith in the world, as well as putting trust in those who's best interest might be to destroy you (but which sometimes works out).

Then again people can disagree on what the themes are.

Now that you mention it, I can see the social isolation is strongly reflected in the crew of the Theseus:

Spoiler: Theseus crew

Show

Sarasti can't emphatize with others because they're food to him. Szpindel and Robert can no-sell Siri's ability to read them (which Robert actually does, though Szpindel chooses not to). Later on Siri also completely fails to read Bates, even though that's supposed to be his thing and instead projects his own thoughts onto her. And then there's Siri's mother who chooses to almost completely disconnect herself from other people by ascending into the Heaven VR simulation. So much for understanding others indeed.

From the sequel, Echopraxia, I got the sense it has a strong theme of powerlessness:

Spoiler: Echopraxia

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Bruks is basically the plaything of the Bicameral Order and Valerie later on with absolutely no say in what happens to him. He's just a pawn in their plots. Even his ultimate act of defiance of committing suicide is rendered useless because the Portia infection can still use his body.

I feel there are strong themes of transformation in both books as well which are reflected both in the transhumanist aspects as well as what happens to the main character of each book.

[Rater202]

And no it's bad. Sakura has her moment of "now the boys get to look at my back for once" and then the other two completely leave her in the dust anyway.

I think it's important to note that tey wound't have been able to defeat Kaguya without her.

Kaguya had demonstrated at that point that she was able to escape the technique they were using to seal her. They would never have defeated her if Sakura hadn't sucker punched her the second time they tried.

the modular eyeballs

That's not really a thing though? Like yeah, we get people ripping out eyes a couple of times but the only time someone implants an eye without Surgery it was Madara... Who had an absurdly powerful healing factor.

[LaZodiac]

I think it's important to note that tey wound't have been able to defeat Kaguya without her.

Kaguya had demonstrated at that point that she was able to escape the technique they were using to seal her. They would never have defeated her if Sakura hadn't sucker punched her the second time they tried.

That's not really a thing though? Like yeah, we get people ripping out eyes a couple of times but the only time someone implants an eye without Surgery it was Madara... Who had an absurdly powerful healing factor.

It had been awhile, and that's something, but like... Sakura gets so shafted through the entire series.

Pretty sure Obito goes about some eyeball snatching and face shoving as well, but again it's been awhile.

[Rater202]

It had been awhile, and that's something, but like... Sakura gets so shafted through the entire series.

Pretty sure Obito goes about some eyeball snatching and face shoving as well, but again it's been awhile.

Obito did it off screen so we don't really the details... But seeing as how over half of his body was replaced by parts from a Zetsu I think he also has a similar healing factor so even if he did it without surgery it doens't make the eyes modular.

...Like, seriously. Half of Obito's body is plant-based putty in the vague shape of a human. IF anyone gets to have plug-and-play biology it's him.

[Peelee]

That's a thing I've noticed: People tend to overlook subtle Theme and overfocus on anything more blatant.

The theme is about as subtle as a sledgehammer. It's just that the other themes are as subtle as a freight train.

People focus on the obvious because they don't notice the subtle or don't care about breaking media down. Sometimes they don't even care about the obvious.

A shocking amount of people apparently didn't notice the blindingly obvious in TB until it was quite literally impossible to no longer notice, but that's about as far as I can go on here about it.

[Anonymouswizard]

The theme is about as subtle as a sledgehammer. It's just that the other themes are as subtle as a freight train.

Subtlety is relative. You'd notice the teleporting hamster if I hadn't painted your diving elephant hot pink.

A shocking amount of people apparently didn't notice the blindingly obvious in TB until it was quite literally impossible to no longer notice, but that's about as far as I can go on here about it.

And in five years they'll return to not noticing it because not everybody dissects their media as much as you do.

[Peelee]

Subtlety is relative. You'd notice the teleporting hamster if I hadn't painted your diving elephant hot pink.

Fair point.

And in five years they'll return to not noticing it because not everybody dissects their media as much as you do.

.... Have you seen The Boys? And, if not, would you like me to show some example clips or give some example summaries off site?

[enderlord99]

.... Have you seen The Boys?

No, but I've seen ads for it on Twitch. It seems to be a dime-a-dozen "What if superheroes were all jerks" edgy/toxic cringe-"comedy" that thinks it's original, because it's never heard of Watchman or Warren Ellis' Supergod or the modern DC films or...

And, if not, would you like me to show some example clips or give some example summaries off site?

I doubt anyone would, considering how repulsive it is even when limited to the bits that were specifically chosen to attract an audience.

[Peelee]

No, but I've seen ads for it on Twitch. It seems to be a dime-a-dozen "What if superheroes were all jerks" edgy/toxic "comedy" that thinks it's original.

No version of it is a comedy, and the rest is a good description of the comic but not the show.

[enderlord99]

No version of it is a comedy, and the rest is a good description of the comic but not the show.

Oh. I thought it was a cringe-comedy like Freddy Got Fingered but superhero-themed.

Because that's the quality shown in the ads.

[Anonymouswizard]

.... Have you seen The Boys? And, if not, would you like me to show some example clips or give some example summaries off site?

No, and no. Maybe I'll watch it once I've read the comic. But I'm not talking about The Boys, I'm talking about how people engage with media.

[Lord Raziere]

No it doesn't. Like, it genuinely doesn't! I have it here, I'm reading it.

It takes till about page 30 for Mizuki to bring up that Naruto has the Ninetails within him, and even then it's not presented as a good thing; Naruto rising above that, surpassing the circumstances of his birth, is a vital part of his character arc in the first half of the series.

...Okay, I have been misinformed... Unless the narration was changed in translations. This requires more research.

Still, considering that some peoples ay that Naruto using the Nine-Tails to beat Neji breaks the theme as i's being established...I think that this part here still means that it's a lot more nuanced than a lot of people think.

People cite NAruto having "the best parents" as a thing that breaks the theme... That again, clearly isn't meant to be the series defining theme and is a lot more nuanced, while ignoring that he quite clearly inherited nothing but looks* from either parent—he does not have his father's raw, ungodly, inexplicable level of talent or his mother's power, unique abilities, or ability to survive having a monster ripped out of your soul or not instantly die from having most of her organs pulped.

He also did not inherit any material wealth from his parents for one reason or another and did not grow up with them and as such really gains nothing from them.

its probably worth pointing out that Naruto is a fundamentally rooted in japanese culture kind of show and thus has a different concept of "overcoming circumstances of birth" than we do. you guys are both thinking from a western perspective about this. from a western perspective overcoming the circumstances of birth would probably be looking at the situation Naruto is in and wanting to work hard to achieve things, would reject using the fox and prove that they are something WITHOUT the fox, that they are someone with an identity separate from them. its why so many people at least in the west, latch on to Rock Lee.

this isn't what happens, because the culture we're talking about here wouldn't see things that way. status in japanese culture, is everything. its fundamental down to the language having tons of honorifics and forms of address. they wouldn't be there if they weren't important. the circumstances of their birth does not refer to overcoming being hated in general, but being born low class or low status. jinchuuriki is just the show specific version of that, and the metaphor is better understood as something akin to the "rags to riches, pull yourself up by your bootstraps to make money by working hard" idea that americans have but with social status instead of money. Naruto's dream can be best understood in this context: "I was born as an untouchable who handles corpses for funerals, but my dream is to be a great samurai and become shogun! believe it!" its not some western idea of social acceptance, but expressing an idea of social mobility for himself achievable by proving that he is strong and useful to his village. normally jinchuuriki don't have much control over their power so....they're not that useful to magical shinobi military based on discipline waiting for shinobi war 4. basically just someone they throw another place, let their anger issues unleash the destruction, that sort of thing. thus the circumstances he is overcoming isn't really whether he is a person separate from the fox or not, but whether his status as a jinchuuriki means he is low status forever because he can't make use of what he was given at birth.

this is backed up by Neji's own situation: in many fan fics I've read, one of the most common things I've seen them do is come up with a solution to remove the caged bird seal. this never happens in canonical Naruto. Neji dies with the caged bird seal still on him. in much the same way his father did: sacrificing himself for someone else of his own volition. and in Boruto the cage bird seal just...isn't even mentioned. the resolution wasn't about the removing the caged bird, much like the resolution for Naruto wasn't about removing the fox from his way of doing things. they're treated as simply immutable circumstances that will always be with them til the day they die, and the resolution being showing that they can be awesome/useful/meaningful despite those circumstances being on them forever. Rock lee's lack of talent for ninjutsu and genjutsu is also treated as an immutable circumstance and he is praised not because he found a way to break that immutable circumstance....but because he found a way to be powerful/useful within it. the doubt was never about whether he could do taijutsu or do something other than taijutsu. that doubt was whether taijutsu-only could ever be useful or meaningful, which he proved in that fight with Gaara even though he lost. a taijutsu user that can go toe to toe with jinchuuriki is high status indeed. similarly the doubt about Naruto wasn't whether he was separate from the fox- that was resolved in episode 1 by Iruka- but whether he could control the fox's power, whether or not the thing inflicted upon him literally made him unable to be a proper shinobi, because his chakra control would never let him do normal techniques properly. if Naruto couldn't overcome this, he would never get his happy ending, because the other genin's reaction to him isn't "oh that guy we hate because he could kill us all because he is the fox" no its "oh its useless Naruto, that foolish prankster we had classes with, whats this clown doing being a shinobi? he defeated Neji, what? that doesn't make any sense." like none of the Konoha 12 even talk about the nine-tailed fox.

while Gaara is treated as this terrifying being to everyone who encounters him early on and guess what? he has full control over his sand, and he gets fast-tracked to being kazekage despite being someone who only a couple years ago gladly proclaimed things like "I kill to prove my existence". y'know, not the best sign for a potential new leader. Gaara must've had one heckuva of a speech to get people on his side after that...or he was better at hiding it in his own village. but then again....he is the kazekage's son and Naruto world ain't a democracy. again, status is everything, and Gaara was born high status.

and the whole "born to nobility, has to work for it anyways" thing is kind of a feudal fantasy trope in the same vein. the idea is that at some point anyone could become a knight/samurai/great ninja/whatever if go through the proper channels by being an apprentice to one and working real hard to get into the noble class of warriors and such even if its like, really hard. the idea is a lost heir that is raised as a peasant even though they're noble born and thus while by that society's standards "deserving" of their inheritance, has to go through trials as if they were common born to earn it back to show their moral character and that they aren't just some spoiled brat while connecting them to the common people of the setting- that they COULD'VE been truly common born and still get far. its a fantasy thing thats trying to reconcile modern and older ideas about who deserves to rule and what makes a good leader that sounds good if you know little about it but gets less convincing the more you know about the topic. Naruto is full of mixes of modern and older ideas so, its not surprising this one comes up.

this idea of the real struggle is being "useful" is reflected in whenever an anime character fails during a fight and calls themselves "useless" or "weak" despite the foe clearly outclassing them. to western culture such a situation is blameless on the defenders/losers end- the person can't be blamed for someone appearing out of nowhere and just being stronger/better than them in situation they had no idea to prepare for. but to the culture they're from, it doesn't seem to be, not entirely- the character expressing is that they didn't train hard enough to beat every possible foe, and thus neglected in their duty/training/whatever and thus wasn't as diligent as they should be. to my memory no one reassures them that they couldn't have done anything about it but rather encourages them to pick themselves back up and train harder so it doesn't happen again, as if the message is actually "you screwed up by not being prepared, but by picking yourself back up and continuing to work hard and keep trying you can be prepared in the future."

of course, I might be wrong, I'm just another westerner trying one's best to figure out Naruto, when western analysis of Naruto seems to be very prone to misinterpretation. I might be reading too much of the culture into it when its just one person's distorted fantasy version of it.

[Peelee]

No, and no. Maybe I'll watch it once I've read the comic.

I recommend not reading the comic, actually. I got it because the show was so good, but they are radically different beasts.

But I'm not talking about The Boys, I'm talking about how people engage with media.

Thats an odd response, then, because I was very specifically talking about The Boys.

[Anonymouswizard]

I recommend not reading the comic, actually. I got it because the show was so good, but they are radically different beasts.

Good, otherwise there'd be no reason to consume both.

Thats an odd response, then, because I was very specifically talking about The Boys.

And I was pointing out that it's a trend we see in a lot of media.

[Peelee]

Good, otherwise there'd be no reason to consume both.

Eh, your funeral.

And I was pointing out that it's a trend we see in a lot of media.

Yes, but that trend was regarding the specific media I was talking about, despite you claiming that it was. It's like if I talked about Vader saying "no, I am your father" and you responding with "badly written twists are a dime a dozen, nobody will remember that in a few years." Sure, your assertion may generally be true but it doesn't have anything to do with the comment you replied to and it reads like a direct rebuttal to the specific media I was talking about.

[Anonymouswizard]

Because it's an interesting topic outside 'this one show that not everybody has watched'.