Adventurer's long rest vs. working man's night's sleep

[Greywander]

Some people seem to have looked at the rules for long rests and concluded that people in D&D only need 6 hours of sleep. But I don't think this is quite correct. While this isn't reflected in the rules, likely because the rules are designed around adventurers, I think that adventurers are just more adapted to working on less sleep over a period of weeks or months. Kind of like college students. But to be operating at optimal capacity, you'd want to get a full 8 hours of sleep. The long rest is basically a compromise between the need for sleep and the danger of the wilderness.

I've looked at making a few different expanded rest mechanics, such as adding longer types of rests. First, I'm renaming a "long rest" to a "camp", in part because I'll now have longer rests, and in part to emphasize the transitory nature of long rests. However, the next step up from that that I have is the "holiday", a full day of rest including 8 hours of sleep and 8 hours of light activity in a 24 hour period. This allows you to still engage in some downtime activities while resting.

The problem I'm struggling to answer is how to properly represent a standard night's rest. Not camping, but sleeping in a bed for a full 8 hours. The holiday kind of captures that, but the 8 hours of light activity kind of prevent it from applying to a standard workday, which usually includes 8 hours or more of heavy labor, and likely other activities, such as chores, that might not qualify as light activity.

I don't want to add a new rest type in between the camp and the holiday, as that's already a bit cluttered. I think a better option might be to simply have a "camp+" where you sleep for all 8 hours and get some other minor benefit on top of the normal long rest benefits. For example, you might regain one use of a resource that normally fully recharges on a holiday.

Edit: While this mostly applies to homebrew, where different rest mechanics can be integrated properly, this could be applied to vanilla without much difficulty. For example, 8 hours of sleep might give you back half your hit dice like normal, but also a few extra hit dice on top of that. So a full night's rest gives you more hit dice for the following day. It's a minor difference, but one that at least makes it meaningful, instead of just pure fluff.

[LibraryOgre]

TBH, the Gritty Realism variant in the DMG seems to cover this.

A night's sleep is a short rest. The only thing I would add here is the potential for natural healing, and the eventual return of Hit Dice over time; I'd go with "Each short rest restores 1 HD, which can be spent at a future short rest."

A week's rest, in relative safety, is a long rest. Restores all HD and special abilities.

For most NPCs, with that slight modification, a short rest will be enough. They don't have many abilities that require a long rest (and some might finesse; the drow magic "once per day" restriction doesn't explicitly require any type of rest; in the PH, only the half-orc's Relentless Endurance specifically requires a long rest).

(This can even tie into things like the Lost Battles of Dragonlance; the besieged Wizards were unable to get long rests, so were stuck with Arcane Recovery slots).

[Anymage]

D&D characters can also get by on a gallon of water each day, and a pound of food every other day with no need to account for nutrients. There's no mechanical reason for anyone to have more than that. And yet, we see in the real world that while people can function on little sleep and rationed food, "function" is not what most people strive for.

I'd be okay saying that the difference between six and eight hours of sleep is below the granularity that 5e can reasonably capture, but that the latter is preferred for anybody who can swing it. Since it primarily applies to PCs during downtime and NPCs who aren't making checks, it's okay to not bother with rules for it.

[LibraryOgre]

I'd be okay saying that the difference between six and eight hours of sleep is below the granularity that 5e can reasonably capture, but that the latter is preferred for anybody who can swing it.

I mean, I can function on 4-6, but I'll take 12 on the rare occasions I can get it.

[Greywander]

I'm aiming for something a bit more granular than a simple switch to Gritty Realism. It's not just about changing the definitions to stretch out the rest time, it's about adding more variety within the rest system.

Here's the rest structure I'm considering:

• Breather. 1 minute of light activity. Essentially this is for "once per encounter" abilities. This can replace less rigorous things, like recharging when you roll initiative.
• Break. 1 hour of light activity. The former short rest. Essentially this requires you to find a safe zone to chill in for a moment to get the ability back.
• Camp. 6 hours of sleep and 2 hours of light activity. Once per day features.
• Holiday. 8 hours of sleep and 8 hours of light activity over a 24 hour period. Basically requires you to take a short break from adventuring. Allows some time for downtime activities.
• Vacation. 1 week rest, i.e. seven consecutive holidays. Requires a longer break from adventuring, making these essentially "once per adventure".

This allows for a much broader degree of how long it takes to refresh an ability, instead of being limited to at-will, short rest, long rest. For example, 1st level spell slots might refresh on a breather, while 9th level spells refresh on a vacation.

It sounds like a full night's sleep should just be a regular long rest/camp, but maybe with an extra benefit, like getting extra hit dice back. I can look at things like food and water, and perhaps do something similar if you take more than subsistence levels of food and water.

[kazaryu]

Some people seem to have looked at the rules for long rests and concluded that people in D&D only need 6 hours of sleep. But I don't think this is quite correct. While this isn't reflected in the rules, likely because the rules are designed around adventurers, I think that adventurers are just more adapted to working on less sleep over a period of weeks or months. Kind of like college students. But to be operating at optimal capacity, you'd want to get a full 8 hours of sleep. The long rest is basically a compromise between the need for sleep and the danger of the wilderness.

I've looked at making a few different expanded rest mechanics, such as adding longer types of rests. First, I'm renaming a "long rest" to a "camp", in part because I'll now have longer rests, and in part to emphasize the transitory nature of long rests. However, the next step up from that that I have is the "holiday", a full day of rest including 8 hours of sleep and 8 hours of light activity in a 24 hour period. This allows you to still engage in some downtime activities while resting.

The problem I'm struggling to answer is how to properly represent a standard night's rest. Not camping, but sleeping in a bed for a full 8 hours. The holiday kind of captures that, but the 8 hours of light activity kind of prevent it from applying to a standard workday, which usually includes 8 hours or more of heavy labor, and likely other activities, such as chores, that might not qualify as light activity.

I don't want to add a new rest type in between the camp and the holiday, as that's already a bit cluttered. I think a better option might be to simply have a "camp+" where you sleep for all 8 hours and get some other minor benefit on top of the normal long rest benefits. For example, you might regain one use of a resource that normally fully recharges on a holiday.

Edit: While this mostly applies to homebrew, where different rest mechanics can be integrated properly, this could be applied to vanilla without much difficulty. For example, 8 hours of sleep might give you back half your hit dice like normal, but also a few extra hit dice on top of that. So a full night's rest gives you more hit dice for the following day. It's a minor difference, but one that at least makes it meaningful, instead of just pure fluff.

i mean...the way i answer this is by nerfing everyone that isn't a PC (mechanically) while elevating PC's narratively. narratively PC's are special. period. they may not be recognized as such. they may not feel like it. But PC's are special. they an incredibly rare mix of genes, upbringing, culture, etc. all the things that go into how capable a person ends up being. Its the reason they're able to...not fully heal, but recover enough to reset their capability with relatively little rest, its why they can go from lvl 1 to lvl 20 in a matter of weeks if they're really pushed, it why they can tank massive hits that would flaten so many others. By contrast, most NPC's in my world lack some of these things. most mages need to study for years to get to the same magical level a PC can reach. older, Powerful mages that have studied for year in a tower, but never been in a real fight, may not actually have the HP to survive in the same situations that PC's can (thus answering the question 'why doesn't this super powerful archmage do it?'). or if they have the HP, they may not actually have Hit dice that allow them to heal on a SR, or the general physicality to heal as much on a LR. this goes for all of them. that master thief? he's so talented, and has been ahead of hte curve for so long, that he actually doesn't really have any resilience at all. once solid blow will take him down...now...landing that blow might be bothersome, but once you land it, he has no HP.

Mostly this is something i use for NPC's that the PC's aren't supposed to fight. or ones that i don't intend for them to fight. but...yeah, i mean even irl rest/recovery on on a spectrum. not everyone literally needs exactly 8hours of sleep. some people legitimately are fine with less. some people actually need more. PC's are just at the extreme ends of all those spectrums. toughness, recovery, learning, etc.

[sandmote]

I've been wondering about setting up a system where you roll all your hit dice to determine how much you heal at the end of a long rest, specifically so players can't guarantee getting back up to full health at the end of every single day.

Perhaps use that for your "camp" rest, and then extend the normal "long rest" with its fully returned hit points to require 8 hours of sleep in a proper bed?

[KorvinStarmast]

Some people seem to have looked at the rules for long rests and concluded that people in D&D only need 6 hours of sleep. But I don't think this is quite correct.

I know people who can do fine on less than that. My normal awake/sleep rhythm is 6-7 sleep, the rest awake. 8 hours sleep is gravy.

But to be operating at optimal capacity, you'd want to get a full 8 hours of sleep. The long rest is basically a compromise between the need for sleep and the danger of the wilderness.

Overthinking in progress. The Play's the thing.

[animorte]

I know people who can do fine on less than that. My normal awake/sleep rhythm is 6-7 sleep, the rest awake. 8 hours sleep is gravy.
Overthinking in progress. The Play's the thing.

Yeah, I'm lucky to get 6 on a normal day; the exhaustion catches up after a couple days. But on those sweet sweet mornings I don't have to work and the kids don't crush my door down at 6am are just magical.

[greenstone]

I'm thinking it should be the other way around. When the working person gets home, all they really have to do is eat, clean themself, and sleep. Adventurer's have to eat, clean themselves, sleep, and care for gear (and of course unpack all their gear the night before and pack it again each morning). With the care and maintenance of armour, weapons, boots, animals, and so on, added to how long it takes to set up a preindustrial campsite, it's amazing they can even fit a long rest into 8 hours.

Just caring for horses can take a couple of hours across an evening and the next morning (staking them out, feeding them, watering them, currying them, unsaddling, saddling, checking feet, cleaning up waste, etc).

[Greywander]

I'm thinking it should be the other way around. When the working person gets home, all they really have to do is eat, clean themself, and sleep. Adventurer's have to eat, clean themselves, sleep, and care for gear (and of course unpack all their gear the night before and pack it again each morning). With the care and maintenance of armour, weapons, boots, animals, and so on, added to how long it takes to set up a preindustrial campsite, it's amazing they can even fit a long rest into 8 hours.

Just caring for horses can take a couple of hours across an evening and the next morning (staking them out, feeding them, watering them, currying them, unsaddling, saddling, checking feet, cleaning up waste, etc).

Remember that a typical day only has you traveling for 8 hours. So presumably, it's 8 hours of travel, 8 hours of hunting/foraging, caring for animals, and whatever else, and 8 hours of resting. That said, you can do a forced march, and it's not really clear how much time you need to do any of that stuff that isn't traveling or resting.

[Amechra]

If you want something really simple (and primarily geared for a game where towns are safe places):

Short Rests: As normal.

Long Rests while Camping: You recover half of your total hit-dice and remove one level of Exhaustion. You don't get HP back automatically — however, each hit-die you spend while long resting is maximized (so a Barbarian would always get back 12+Con HP).

Long Rests while in Town: You recover all of your hit-dice, clear all of your Exhaustion, and go back to full HP. Congratulations!

(Personally, I'd throw in some ad-hoc stuff based off of what my players are playing — maybe Wizard books are really heavy, so you can only swap your spells in town, while Druids are just the opposite. But that's just me.)

[Zhorn]

I've been wondering about setting up a system where you roll all your hit dice to determine how much you heal at the end of a long rest, specifically so players can't guarantee getting back up to full health at the end of every single day.

Slow Natural Healing, DMG p267

IMO this is far superior to Gritty Realism since there's no messing about with the timescale.

I take it a step further by houserulling also that Short Rests require the expenditure of at least one hit dice, just to keep a reasonable leash on abilities that recharge on a Short Rests abilities that allow "free" healing. Lets players still have all their features without me worrying about having to ban anything that might otherwise break the attrition style that low Natural Healing is about.

[Jak]

I'm aiming for something a bit more granular than a simple switch to Gritty Realism. It's not just about changing the definitions to stretch out the rest time, it's about adding more variety within the rest system.

Here's the rest structure I'm considering:

• Breather. 1 minute of light activity. Essentially this is for "once per encounter" abilities. This can replace less rigorous things, like recharging when you roll initiative.
• Break. 1 hour of light activity. The former short rest. Essentially this requires you to find a safe zone to chill in for a moment to get the ability back.
• Camp. 6 hours of sleep and 2 hours of light activity. Once per day features.
• Holiday. 8 hours of sleep and 8 hours of light activity over a 24 hour period. Basically requires you to take a short break from adventuring. Allows some time for downtime activities.
• Vacation. 1 week rest, i.e. seven consecutive holidays. Requires a longer break from adventuring, making these essentially "once per adventure".

This allows for a much broader degree of how long it takes to refresh an ability, instead of being limited to at-will, short rest, long rest. For example, 1st level spell slots might refresh on a breather, while 9th level spells refresh on a vacation.

It sounds like a full night's sleep should just be a regular long rest/camp, but maybe with an extra benefit, like getting extra hit dice back. I can look at things like food and water, and perhaps do something similar if you take more than subsistence levels of food and water.

This sounds like a really cool system. You could let some abilities come back on breathers as a buff to martials, like ki. Whereas things like warlock spells could stay on breaks.
I'd love to try something with this system.

If you want something really simple (and primarily geared for a game where towns are safe places):

Short Rests: As normal.

Long Rests while Camping: You recover half of your total hit-dice and remove one level of Exhaustion. You don't get HP back automatically — however, each hit-die you spend while long resting is maximized (so a Barbarian would always get back 12+Con HP).

Long Rests while in Town: You recover all of your hit-dice, clear all of your Exhaustion, and go back to full HP. Congratulations!

(Personally, I'd throw in some ad-hoc stuff based off of what my players are playing — maybe Wizard books are really heavy, so you can only swap your spells in town, while Druids are just the opposite. But that's just me.)

This sounds like a simple rework, but I like the distinction between resting while camping, and resting in town. There is definitely a difference irl.

What's more, some classes may get the ability to treat a rest while camping as a rest in town, at least for those specific class resources and hit die; perhaps ranger and druid? Maybe barbarian?

[Amechra]

This sounds like a simple rework, but I like the distinction between resting while camping, and resting in town. There is definitely a difference irl.

What's more, some classes may get the ability to treat a rest while camping as a rest in town, at least for those specific class resources and hit die; perhaps ranger and druid? Maybe barbarian?

If you want to go even further, you could make it so resting always takes an hour or so... but your recovery is dependent on the quality of the rest.

Off the top of my head, you could make it so that resting requires at least one thing off the following list:

• Food (a single ration will do)
• Drink (a waterskin will do)
• Decent shelter (from the elements, that is)
• Sleep (no matter how restless)
• Good spirits (a warm fire, conversation, stories — makes a bunch of noise)

You get two things on that list? That's a short rest. Four things? That's a long rest (with Slow Natural Healing). All five of them? Boom. Super full rest.

You don't have enough of the things on that list? Make me a DC (insert appropriate number) Constitution check to make up the difference. Druids count as having decent shelter when they're roughing it, but don't if they're staying at a cozy inn. Etc etc.

[Angelalex242]

If Druids can get proper rest in nature, I think I'd insist Rangers get the same privilege.

Monks can meditate anywhere. They'd have only one requirement: Silence. Nothing else really matters for chi.

Clerics (And Paladins, depending on your campaign) may recover more quickly in churches, as the Hallowed buildings charge those who are hallowed themselves.

[sandmote]

Slow Natural Healing, DMG p267

I was thinking slightly faster than this. Closer to getting all of your hit dice back, spending them all immediately, then getting half back again like you do under the standard rules. I worry the Slow Natural Healing recommendation would make my players really focused on having magical healing.

Focusing on the initial idea for the thread, I think my main suggestion is that instead of having one type of rest which is identical to a "long rest," and a second rest which is marginally better/worse, instead have two types of rest, one of which is marginally longer than a "long rest," and the other which is marginally weaker than a "long rest." I expect it'll give you a bit more design space to work with. Particularly with the awkward "8 hours of marching" rules.

[Zhorn]

I was thinking slightly faster than this. Closer to getting all of your hit dice back, spending them all immediately, then getting half back again like you do under the standard rules. I worry the Slow Natural Healing recommendation would make my players really focused on having magical healing.

Fair enough.
It hasn't really been that big of an issue for my last couple of campaigns with Slow Natural Healing. First was levels 1->14. Current levels 1->9 (ongoing). The clerics in each campaign tended to be more Battle-Mercy's than healbots, most of their spells going towards damage and combat. Parties have just accepted that being at full health only ever happens after a couple of days in town, and for the rest of the time being between 40-70% hp is their normal.
The game really gets a lot more mileage out of low CR creatures when you don't need to focus on fighting the party at full resources every time.
Very different to the "crank the CR, every fight is a Nova-fest" that comes with the 5min adventuring day.

[sandmote]

Parties have just accepted that being at full health only ever happens after a couple of days in town, and for the rest of the time being between 40-70% hp is their normal.

Huh, I was worried accepting this would be the issue. I might try the regular slow healing for myself sometime then. Thanks for telling me how its gone for you.

[Segev]

If you're looking at gritty realism vs. normal rules for resting, and finding that they each work better in different situations, I tend to agree. Gritty realism makes "hex crawl" travel more engaging. Dungeon delving really calls for standard rules. I think these are best combined by having something requiring that you find a comfortable place of safety and security to rest to get a long rest. I'll keep calling them "long" and "short" rests, but renaming them might be useful for a more developed version of this subsystem.

You can only long rest in some sort of permanent place of safety - a town, an inn, a tribal village, or the like. You might be able to take a week worth of effort to properly secure and establish a "base camp" that serves this purpose. For more depth, this might require hirelings' (or your own) efforts to maintain, and henchmen to guard it so you can sleep without having to keep one eye open.

After any long rest, for the next 24 hours, you can short rest as per the normal rules, using an hour of low activity. After that, you need a full 8 hours' rest just to get a short rest, unless you have a valid place to long rest. So camping out is just a short rest. As is any makeshift sheltering you do in a Leomund's tiny hut or the like. And, after 24 hours without a proper long rest in a proper resting place, you can't even get short rests in 1 hour.

The "one week to build a base camp" is the nod to Gritty Realism's rules for long resting.

One thing this does is make finding hidden villages, tribes of bullywugs, or other settlements in the wilderness rewards in and of themselves, whether you befriend them or find a way to establish dominance so they'll let you rest there.

You might even allow that caravans of permanent nomadic types that move slowly but with all the trappings of their civilization and home can set up "permanent-enough" encampments every night, making for very slow travel compared to PC rates, but also allowing that the PCs can stop and rest with them if needs be. (Good for a wilderness hike through the demiplane of dread, when encountering the Vistani.)

[Zhorn]

Huh, I was worried accepting this would be the issue. I might try the regular slow healing for myself sometime then. Thanks for telling me how its gone for you.

It could be a case of learned experience. If so many of the games the players have been in have only ever use the "high CR, rest to full" model, then is could be very jarring to move to a attrition style of gameplay. I started each of my groups from 1st level, so they weren't just being dropped into it.

I'll still have big deadly fights now and then, but those are telegraphed most of the time so the party is aware of those being in an area (foot prints, signs of previous hunts, etc), giving them the warning to play conservatively if they want to save their health and big guns to take it on at full resources, or to be cautious is their attempt to avoid it getting them caught in an ambush scenario. If they march in recklessly after that then do what makes sense for the narrative.

Lower CR fight are going to at first seem like they are not posing a challenge; but that's the deception of the attrition model. A few goblins lands some hits in an ambush then running away once their leader and a couple other are taken out after the surprise round was an easy victory, but those half a dozen arrows of damage are what was lost.
It's like the advice on 'softening up the party before they face the BBEG', only the softening up phase is the norm. My players have had a lot more close calls fighting orcs and bugbears than they have dragons and hydras because of that regular softening.

It also gives then a reason to not mess with town guards like a pack of murderhobos, since that softening keeps those low CR guards within a legitimate threat range.
Similarly, even if they use the safety of town to heal up to full, they still don't want to mess things up in town because it means they would have the leave once again in a softened up state, ruining the benefit of what the town would have provided.