New to savage worlds, looking for advice (Mainly Savage Pathfinder)

[Kol Korran]

Hello all. I am using the general roleplay forum, since the discussion may also include references to other game systems, or approaches.

First, a foreward (You may skip to "What am I looking for" if you aren't interested):
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So, A few years ago I took my leave from actual play, due to life circumstances (My kids were born, demanding job etc.). In the past 2-3 years I've been checking and trying to get back to actual gaming, but my life situation, though it has improved somewhat in terms of free time, is still quite busy.

Things I tried:
# I tried PbP a few times. Not my cup of tea.
# I tried DMing again (I mostly DM) in PF- I don't have sufficient time to prepare.
# I recently tried 5e (as a player only)- I don't like it much... Feels... Lacking something...
# I've read about Dungeon World, and other Powered by The Apoclaypse Engine systems- and I find them very interesting, but without actually playing them- hard to grasp. I sought actual play using these systems, but not many such groups available where I am at.

My RP backgroung? Mostly D&D (from "Red Box, AD&D, 3.5, PF), some Shadowrun, attempts at Fate Core, and a few other minor experiences.

What am I looking for:
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So, recently I took part in my country's translation for Savage Pathfinder (An adaptation of Savage Worlds to Golarion, and the PF play style.)

I read the core book, and I really like the system. Main reasons:
# The system is at both quite easy to grasp and play, for people xoming from a more "rule heavy/ mechanical" RPG experience such as myself and the main RPG crowd I am in contact with.
# It is both "light enough" to faclilitate fast and engaging play, that focuses a lot on creativity and amart thinking, but it also feels to have enough "mechanical rules weight" to not leave too much for GM's judiciation, and enough complexity to keep those options and choices interestinf.
# It is built in a way that makes it easy for the GM to prepare material for, adapt and improvise. (VERY similar to FATE in that regard- the transition from concept to mechanics is quite quick)
# The rules touch and incorporate quite a few "roleplay incentives", which I like.
# Th pace of the game aeems fast, and exciting! The Relative fragility of PCs and their opponents, the quick pace resolutions, and the many unexpected random elements (Such as exploding dice, critical failures, Jokers and more), make if fast and tense.
# The rise is PC powers, while considerable, seems far more grounded than D&D/ PF, which changes the focus from POWER to smarts and creativity, and also enables a longer play.
# Being closer to PF, is also something my regular RPG crowd may find easier to try and learn.

But... There are a few things which I still find hard to grasp/ understand, and have doubts about... I think this may be a great aystems to try and get back DMing in, but I wanted to ask the forum, mainly people who tried playing Savage PF, or other Savage Worlds games, about:
1. While currently the above points excite me, I wonder how well they hold up for longer campaigns. Does the frailty, combat and magic system, randim elements, and the choices inherent in the system, continue to carry out for a long term?

2. Adjucating the... Difficulty level (In D&D and PF it was CR), per enclunter, and per day or adventure, for a group seems... Mostly an art form. Yeah, I know CR is far from accurate, and has a lot of problems, but for a GM new to the system, it was of help, at least to begin with. Any such similar measures here?

3. I am not well familiar with currencies such as bennies (In FATE there are Fate Points, which is similar, but we had a hard time grasping and adjuciating that as well). The rulebook has some advice on how to dispense and award them, and I guess some will come with experience, but... Still a bit difficult to grasp. Does anyone have any advice/ suggestions on the matter?

4. Savage worlds has a bit line of products and aids. Some for particular games/ settings, some more general. Anything that you think is a good resource? I am especially interested in subsystems, such as enhancing travel & exploration mehanics, social mechanics, naval mechanics, handling organisations and so on...

5. In Fate, while some of my players and myself as GM liked the concept greatly, we had a hard time transitioning from a mostly "Gamist/challenge" system such as D&D and PF to a more "Narrative/ expression/ creation" system. While Savage worlds falls somewhwre in between, any suggestions on how to make the transition easier? Assume a group with plenty of experience in D&D like systems, but none in Savage world. For GM and playwra alike.

Thank you for reading this far. I await any counsel, advice or even juat shared experience.

Kol

[Grod_The_Giant]

Before I answer, I should note that I'm no Savage Worlds veteran--I ran a Deadlands campaign for a few months using the Savage Worlds version of the rules, but that's about it. On the other hand, I'm also a mechanically-oriented old fart who's been running games for a long time. YMMV.

1. While currently the above points excite me, I wonder how well they hold up for longer campaigns. Does the frailty, combat and magic system, randim elements, and the choices inherent in the system, continue to carry out for a long term?

While my experience might have been skewed a bit by playing a pulp-horror version of the game, I found that the game held up just fine on almost all of those fronts... except frailty. Because great Gygax, was there a high attrition rate-- literally everyone in my three-person group had died before the game petered out. I used GM fiat to have one come back as a super-zombie (because Harrowed are too cool a setting element not to use), and commuted another's sentence from "eaten by a sea serpent" to "escaped with horrible acid scars" (because it would have been an INCREDIBLY dark moment for him to die-die), but... yeah. By the rules, three players and three dead characters.

(Though that's not to say that it wasn't fun, because it absolutely was. Exploding dice lend themselves well to unexpected moments of awesome.)

2. Adjucating the... Difficulty level (In D&D and PF it was CR), per enclunter, and per day or adventure, for a group seems... Mostly an art form. Yeah, I know CR is far from accurate, and has a lot of problems, but for a GM new to the system, it was of help, at least to begin with. Any such similar measures here?

You know that Churchill quote about how democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others? Challenge Rating works the same way. It has its flaws, but my god do you miss it when you try to run a system that doesn't have a good equivalent. Savage Worlds takes a stab in that direction (p 123-124, "Combat Rating"), but it's fiddly and probably not worth the paper it's printed on.

Without a functioning CR-equivalent, you kind of have to let go of the idea of D&D style "balanced encounters" and just use whatever opposition makes the most narrative sense. And subtle GM techniques for reducing encounter difficulty mid-battle (ie, "forgetting" to use certain abilities, or cutting back total hit points) become an even more important weapon in your arsenal.

3. I am not well familiar with currencies such as bennies (In FATE there are Fate Points, which is similar, but we had a hard time grasping and adjuciating that as well). The rulebook has some advice on how to dispense and award them, and I guess some will come with experience, but... Still a bit difficult to grasp. Does anyone have any advice/ suggestions on the matter?

Bennies are hit points.

Oh, the system never tells you that, and it pretends that they can be used for all sorts of other things, but they're absolutely crucial for survival. When a player ran out of bennies mid-fight, they died (that's what got two of my three victims). I cannot emphasize this enough-- if you don't have bennies you can't soak attacks, and if you can't soak attacks you're likely to get blown to pieces by a single shot.

They're also really, really important for dealing with the wild swinginess of skill checks and the system in general. My suggestion is to hand them out like candy. A player comes up with a cool bit of narration? Benny. Someone has an in-character conversation with a minor NPC? Benny. Making a ****ish GM move? Bennies all around. It's much better to be generous than stingy.

4. Savage worlds has a bit line of products and aids. Some for particular games/ settings, some more general. Anything that you think is a good resource? I am especially interested in subsystems, such as enhancing travel & exploration mehanics, social mechanics, naval mechanics, handling organisations and so on...

I obviously enjoyed the Deadlands setting, given that I talked my group into playing it. The setting-specific rulebooks had some good stuff; the module I optimistically bought was kind of useless main plot wise but had a lot of cool sidequests and 1-2 session arcs.

5. In Fate, while some of my players and myself as GM liked the concept greatly, we had a hard time transitioning from a mostly "Gamist/challenge" system such as D&D and PF to a more "Narrative/ expression/ creation" system. While Savage worlds falls somewhwre in between, any suggestions on how to make the transition easier? Assume a group with plenty of experience in D&D like systems, but none in Savage world. For GM and playwra alike.

Don't worry-- despite the presence of bennies, Savage Worlds is a purely gamist system.

[Anonymouswizard]

Before I answer, I should note that I'm no Savage Worlds veteran--I ran a Deadlands campaign for a few months using the Savage Worlds version of the rules, but that's about it. On the other hand, I'm also a mechanically-oriented old fart who's been running games for a long time. YMMV.


While my experience might have been skewed a bit by playing a pulp-horror version of the game, I found that the game held up just fine on almost all of those fronts... except frailty. Because great Gygax, was there a high attrition rate-- literally everyone in my three-person group had died before the game petered out. I used GM fiat to have one come back as a super-zombie (because Harrowed are too cool a setting element not to use), and commuted another's sentence from "eaten by a sea serpent" to "escaped with horrible acid scars" (because it would have been an INCREDIBLY dark moment for him to die-die), but... yeah. By the rules, three players and three dead characters.

(Though that's not to say that it wasn't fun, because it absolutely was. Exploding dice lend themselves well to unexpected moments of awesome.)

A) cover saves characters, as does armour.
B) fanning the hammer was, as I understand it, stupidly overpowered in Reloaded. No clue about the new version

But yeah, Savage Worlds is not a game where you can stand around trading blows. Get you and your minions into cover or go prone.

BThey're also really, really important for dealing with the wild swinginess of skill checks and the system in general. My suggestion is to hand them out like candy. A player comes up with a cool bit of narration? Benny. Someone has an in-character conversation with a minor NPC? Benny. Making a ****ish GM move? Bennies all around. It's much better to be generous than stingy.

I've never met a metacurrency that didn't benefit from being given out more. Playing SW with three bennies per session is like playing M&M with one Hero Point per session.

I obviously enjoyed the Deadlands setting, given that I talked my group into playing it. The setting-specific rulebooks had some good stuff; the module I optimistically bought was kind of useless main plot wise but had a lot of cool sidequests and 1-2 session arcs.

I personally prefer Hell on Earth, but that book's quite difficult to get over here (especially as a new version is coming out Soon).


When they come out the Companions are likely going to be pretty good. Especially the SF book, as the corebook doesn't have a lot of support. Although the Supers Companion is quite fiddly.


Oh, and in the version I have (Savage Worlds Deluxe) Weird Science is crazily good in the long run. You begin with only one power and 10PP, but every power has its own PP supply which gets boosted by the Power Points edge.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A) cover saves characters, as does armour.
B) fanning the hammer was, as I understand it, stupidly overpowered in Reloaded. No clue about the new version

You're not wrong there. Having your witch buddy use Smite on your pistol beforehand doesn't help either.

(Approaching the cabin where they suspected a badass named gunslinger was holed up with his gang, my player decided to waste multiple bennies capturing a guy to question and sneaking up on the place. Then when combat inevitably broke out, she ended her turn in plain sight. She probably wasn't expecting the gunslinger to smash through the window and empty his revolver into her chest, but we all agreed that particular death was entirely on her.)

Oh, and in the version I have (Savage Worlds Deluxe) Weird Science is crazily good in the long run. You begin with only one power and 10PP, but every power has its own PP supply which gets boosted by the Power Points edge.

Both spellcasting characters in my group wound up going for Blessed (one a homebrew Voodoo variant, the other standard). Power points never got near us.

[Anonymouswizard]

Both spellcasting characters in my group wound up going for Blessed (one a homebrew Voodoo variant, the other standard). Power points never got near us.

Blessed have used Power Points since I think Stone and a Hard Place, and lost a couple of other perks in the bargain. So yeah, while they didn't originally I'm fairly certain they do in the new version. Templars in Hell on Earth definitely do.

There is, from what I understand, a bit of homogenisation going on with Arcane Backgrounds at the moment, including removing sinning from Miracles. It's part of why I've not bought Adventure Edition.

[Kol Korran]

To Grod:
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First of all thank you for the detailed response! And I've read some of your works, and now that you have insights and understanding of mechanics. I quite like your approach, from the things I've read.

So... I am glad that the main interest points carry out, and I understand your comment about frailty. It was one of the things that worried me too. Don't get me wrong- I like games where the stakes are high, and that danger is always present, but I am worried if it isn't TOO much... One ambush, one exploding die, one miscalculation, can easily spell disaster. I guess I'll have to try and see how it goes...

Combined with your comments about "bennies are hit points", tour suggestion to doll them out generously, and Anonymouswizard's comment about taking cover, falling prone and such, makes me realize that the game emphasizes playing smart, trying to minimize risk, and either avoid conflict if possible, or make sure you have the advantage, since combat can easily get deadly...

I like it! From the time I played Shadowrun, this was one of my favourite "intention behind game design". In Shadowrun, if you started getting hit, things could death-spiral very, very fast... "Choose your battles wisely" and "know when to run" were 2 of the major lessons that every runner should know.

So... Quite different from D&D/Pathfinder, eh?

To Anonymouswizard:
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I am learning from your responses to Grod as well, but it seems you also have experience in Savage worlds? Care to share your experience and advice?

[Anonymouswizard]

Okay, Savage Worlds is a combat engine. That's the most important thing to remember. It's a good combat engine, but it doesn't provide much in the way of noncombat abilities. This seems to come from it being a way to do big Deadlands battles in under a weekend, the original book even included rules for unit cohesion and morale to use it as a wargame.

Characters are squishy compared to D&D, but tough compared to something like Unknown Armies. Generally it's best if the PCs aren't fighting alone, the system is designed for a football pitch's worth of combatants. Fighting d8 or getting into cover do a lot to reduce damage simply by stopping mooks from hitting so much.

Although it's important to note that extra attacks ARE deadly, it's why fanning the hammer in Deadlands Reloaded is so good. It's multiple shots with a reduced multi-action penalty. The issue is that you have to be Shaken to take damage, and so each attack after the first is more likely to wound. I think autofire can be even worse.

Powers rely on trappings to be flavourful. Don't let PCs take Bolt, have them take Bee Balista, Psychic Lash, or McGowan's Fabulous Pyrotechnic Onslaught. Work out if this means any major changes (the examples in the book should help), but most of it should be something you can work out in play.

The 'XP for unspent Bennies rule' is stupid, it encourages hoarding Bennies even more than the combat already does. Drop it.

The weird science rules are great, but can lead to a lot of bookkeeping. Sure you begin with a 10PP force field belt and nothing else, but eventually you've got to track 20PP for it as well as your ray gun, healing salve, invisibility cloak, and rocket boots.

The settings are pretty good. Deadlands (the whole set) being a standout.

I really like the card-based initiative and steal it for other games

[Grod_The_Giant]

First of all thank you for the detailed response! And I've read some of your works, and now that you have insights and understanding of mechanics. I quite like your approach, from the things I've read.

So... Quite different from D&D/Pathfinder, eh?

Sorta? Characters are more fragile than non-low-level D&D/PF characters, but the underlying philosophies behind both systems are the same. As Anonymouswizard said, Savage Worlds is a combat engine with a basic skill system bolted on. It's not nearly as much of a departure as Fate or Apocalypse World.

(To mangle an idiom, if D&D is an apple, Savage Worlds is a peach and Fate is a red pepper. And something like Chuubo's Marvelous Wish Granting Engine is a blueberry muffin)

[Anonymouswizard]

Now I have Adventure Edition (which SP is based on) due to a birthday present I can give more accurate advice.

Notably Weird Science is now balanced compared to the other Arcane Backgrounds, but that's because there's basically no difference between them now. I'm very much going to have to add backlash/brainbursts/sinning back in as a houserule. But yeah, no real reason to be wary of it now

Advancement doesn't use XP anymore, so forget that bit about Bennies.

Even with the reduced skill list and free skills 12 points isn't a lot. d6 Athletics, Common Knowledge, Notice, and a d8 in Fighting or Shooting is going to be fairly standard, but costs 7 points for an average PC. Not a massive deal for your standard dungeon crawl, but in a modern setting you can easy expect players to want more than a d6. There's an optional rule to boost it up to the old 15 without getting rid of the free skills, I recommend it. I've never been that happy with how few skills Novice PCs got.