How many spells should a high-level wizard know?

[JPhil]

I realize this is a totally subjective question, but I'm just wondering what is average from your experiences and campaigns. For sake of comparison, let's say a lvl 15 wizards, no school of specialization, giving up to 8th level spells. I know the standard rule is +2 spells per level, but I'm more so wondering how you manage number of spells and spell acquisition throughout the campaign, and how many spells your wizards typically have in their spell-book per level.

Thanks!

[Tzardok]

For every spell added beyond those gained through level, I would reduce the character's wealth by the price of that spell on a scroll.

[Melcar]

I realize this is a totally subjective question, but I'm just wondering what is average from your experiences and campaigns. For sake of comparison, let's say a lvl 15 wizards, no school of specialization, giving up to 8th level spells. I know the standard rule is +2 spells per level, but I'm more so wondering how you manage number of spells and spell acquisition throughout the campaign, and how many spells your wizards typically have in their spell-book per level.

Thanks!

Away from my PC atm, but my level 33 wizard knows around 30 spells of each level… so somewhere around 300 different spells!

EDIT: Ok, so I checked, my level 33 wizard has 316 spells in his spellbook - a large grimoire (pages are A3 size) bound in mithral. It worth a total of 677.700gp, that includes, 139.600gp cost of inscription, 429.000gp worth of value if all spells were bought as scrolls, and 108.000gp for construction plus guards, wards and other magical protections!

[sleepyphoenixx]

At least 5 per level, usually more if you have time to scribe since most levels have more good spells than that and copying from other wizards spellbooks is cheap enough that you can afford to pick up some more situational spells. Otherwise you may as well play a sorcerer.

A lot also depends on your build, a summoner or Shadowcraft Mage doesn't need as many spells as a buffer or battlefield controller (though there's usually overlap between the roles).
Similarly a wizard with Spontaneous Divination should scribe any divination spell he can to make the most of that ACF.

For every spell added beyond those gained through level, I would reduce the character's wealth by the price of that spell on a scroll.

That doesn't make any sense though since you can copy from another spellbook for a fraction of that price. Or just master a looted spellbook for zero cost.
Counting spellbook value against WBL in general runs into issues like a Blessed Book effectively increasing WBL or punishing a wizard for keeping a backup spellbook.

If you're concerned about balance there are better ways (because wizards are just fine with only their 2 free spells/level, they'll just focus on the most powerful ones).
It just seems needlessly spiteful to punish a player for using his class features as intended.

[Tzardok]

It just seems needlessly spiteful to punish a player for using his class features as intended.

Using the class feature as intended is copying scrolls into your spellbook. So buying additional spells for your book seems to me like the most sensible way of handling it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Using the class feature as intended is copying scrolls into your spellbook. So buying additional spells for your book seems to me like the most sensible way of handling it.

The rules on spellbooks have an entire paragraph dedicated to copying from other wizards spellbooks and what it costs (spell level x 50gp).
Complete Arcane goes out of its way to add the option to master looted spellbooks directly instead of having to copy them spell by spell.

Claiming the most expensive option is the intended one is just disingenious, especially considering that the value of a spellbook is explicitly stated to be 100gp/page.
If you count spellbooks against WBL using that would be sensible (until a player buys a Blessed Book at least).
Counting the value of a scroll the player likely never bought and doesn't have against his WBL isn't.

[Faily]

I mean, it really depends on the campaign and the character. Not all campaigns have spellbooks and scrolls available as loot or for purchase most of the time, making it harder to fill in the spellbook more.

The one character I've played that really had a goal of knowing as much magic as possible (level 15: Wizard 5, Sorcerer 1, Ultimate Magus 9), had a total of 60 spells in her spellbook, not counting cantrips.
1st level - 16 known
2nd level - 12 known
3rd level - 12 known
4th level - 8 known
5th level - 9 known
6th level - 3 known

And on top of that had Sorcerer spells too to supplement her repertoire of spells, totalling to 13 more additional new spells known:
1st level - 4 known (after removing those also in spellbook)
2nd level - 4 known (after removing those also in spellbook)
3rd level - 3 known (after removing those also in spellbook)
4th level - 2 known (after removing those also in spellbook)


I think we were mostly WBL that campaign, and had a decent access to being able to buy scrolls (though no spellbooks found). Was mostly a lack of being able to find the time to scribe in spells.

[Elkad]

All of them? (plus a few to dozens of custom spells of his own)

And no, I don't count spellbook towards WBL. I don't count the Fighter's backup magic morning star, dagger, and arrows either.

[Telonius]

I don't count spells gained at level-up towards WBL. For spells that the Wizard paid to scribe, I do count those. Spells at level-up are a class feature, scribing costs GP, and a found spellbook is worth a whole lot of GP.

[Tzardok]

I don't think anyone claimed that the spells gained through level up should count against WBL, only those gained additionally to those.

[Biggus]

The rules on spellbooks have an entire paragraph dedicated to copying from other wizards spellbooks and what it costs (spell level x 50gp).
Complete Arcane goes out of its way to add the option to master looted spellbooks directly instead of having to copy them spell by spell.

Claiming the most expensive option is the intended one is just disingenious, especially considering that the value of a spellbook is explicitly stated to be 100gp/page.
If you count spellbooks against WBL using that would be sensible (until a player buys a Blessed Book at least).
Counting the value of a scroll the player likely never bought and doesn't have against his WBL isn't.

Very much agree that the default should be the copying cost not the scroll cost. However...

I mean, it really depends on the campaign and the character. Not all campaigns have spellbooks and scrolls available as loot or for purchase most of the time, making it harder to fill in the spellbook more.

...I also agree that it depends on the setting. As well as what Faily says, there's this

This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp, though many wizards jealously guard their higher-level spells and may charge much more, or even deny access to them altogether. Wizards friendly to one another often trade access to equal-level spells from each other’s spellbooks at no cost.

which means that lowish-level spells may not need to be paid for, especially if the wizard is part of a magic guild, university or similar, and that high-levels spells may cost extra.

All of them? (plus a few to dozens of custom spells of his own)

And no, I don't count spellbook towards WBL. I don't count the Fighter's backup magic morning star, dagger, and arrows either.

I think you're playing the game rather differently to the rest of us...

[ericgrau]

Typically getting or copying a spellbook gets you a bulk discount that includes a bunch of spells you don't want, while buying scrolls let you choose a la cart. So the actual WBL loss should be somewhere in between. Probably more towards book though as it's going to be the favored choice whenever it's an option.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Very much agree that the default should be the copying cost not the scroll cost. However...

The default value of a spellbook is 100gp/page, no matter how you acquired it. Or do you count scrolls (or other consumables) the player has already expended against WBL too?

I think you're playing the game rather differently to the rest of us...

I don't count spellbooks towards WBL either.
Doing otherwise just pushes players towards certain builds (easy bake wizard, illusion mastery) or getting a Blessed Book (which costs 12500gp no matter how many spells it holds but has up to 100k gp worth of spells).

And differentiating between spells gotten by levelup and spells gotten by scribing just adds needless bookkeeping in addition to making no sense.
Either spells count against WBL or they don't. They're the same once they're in the book no matter where you got them from or how much you paid for them.

[icefractal]

So the free ones are simple enough, but determining the cost of the others is tricky, because of trading spells. Let's consider what conditions would apply to make a given method possible -

Scrolls require that another mage (who wouldn't have to be a Wizard) existed and wrote the scroll, but you never need to have met them.

Buying Spellbooks requires than another Wizard existed, but you don't need to have met them. Bought spellbooks will have some inefficiency though, since you're stuck paying for some spells you didn't want along with the ones you do.

Copying (for money) requires that another Wizard, specifically, was in the same place as you and was willing to sell access. For low-level spells, pretty easy in most settings. For high-level spells, it could be tricky in some settings, and also tricky for any spells that make gold obsolete - why would anyone who knows those sell them for gold in that case?

Spell Trading requires another Wizard in the same place, and that they're interested in some spell you know. That's pretty tricky to estimate, and it's what makes this a hard question to answer. Because depending on interest or lack thereof, you could get between zero and dozens of spells in trade for every spell you have (as the same spell can be traded to multiple people, but if they also trade amongst each-other that diminishes the value for you). And Wizards who scoff at gold may still be interested in this.

In practical terms, if GMing, I'd count the standard copying fee against WBL (and inscribing, but there's things like Blessed Books and Secret Page for that), as it's a simple and not onerous standard. But it's too bad there's not more guidance on spell trading, because it's the most interesting option between the three.

[vasilidor]

Anything past what they get by level up has to be purchased using wealth by level if created above level 1. Otherwise the wizard must find or purchase scrolls and spells.

[RandomPeasant]

I think it is reasonable to want to limit the ability to scribe spells arbitrarily without paying for scrolls. After all, you're probably not going to be allowed to do that in-game, and whatever weirdness might arise from requiring purchase of scrolls, a strong discontinuity between character creation and organic growth is also bad. My default assumption would be to use the same availability rules as the Mage of the Arcane Order's Spellpool: core spells are available by default, other spells are available at the DM's discretion. Want to grab haste for just the cost of the scribing? Sure. Want to pick up draconic polymorph? Either shell out for a scroll or explicitly find a Wizard who already knows it.

[Endarire]

For NPCs, 'all of them' is a reasonable and legitimate answer.

[KoDT69]

Lol y'all counting and ledgering cost vs WBL would recoil from my games. Even tho the Wizard is #1 in power, I allow copying for just the scribing cost for all PHB spells. I also allow a found scroll to basically be cast into the spell book, copying itself as it's read. For free! I mean, the scroll is consumed, but that's the only cost. I mean, my first 2 wizards found spell books of "All spells from level 1 to 6" just to avoid the nitpicking and tracking resources. Only had to worry if we made it to level 15+ lolz.

[Mordante]

Lol y'all counting and ledgering cost vs WBL would recoil from my games. Even tho the Wizard is #1 in power, I allow copying for just the scribing cost for all PHB spells. I also allow a found scroll to basically be cast into the spell book, copying itself as it's read. For free! I mean, the scroll is consumed, but that's the only cost. I mean, my first 2 wizards found spell books of "All spells from level 1 to 6" just to avoid the nitpicking and tracking resources. Only had to worry if we made it to level 15+ lolz.

If Wizards get everything for free. Do martial characters or non wizards also get all their tools of the trade for free?

[Yahzi Coyote]

All of them. Otherwise you might as well be a sorcerer.

[redking]

If they are epic NPCs, then everything in the PHB seems reasonable.

[Mordante]

All of them. Otherwise you might as well be a sorcerer.

If they are epic NPCs, then everything in the PHB seems reasonable.

Woudn't this make the most powerful class in the game even more powerful compared to other classes?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Woudn't this make the most powerful class in the game even more powerful compared to other classes?

Not really. A wizards daily power is mostly determined by the number and level of spells he can cast in a day.
Adding more versatility lets him spend that power in more ways, but he's still limited to the same output.

Keep in mind that a wizard with limited spell access will pick what he needs for his build first, so he'll perform whatever role he chooses just as well either way.
You don't need more than 4 spells a level to be an effective summoner or BFC wizard or even blaster.

What's lost will be mostly party buffs and utility spells - a wizard who only ever gets 4 spells per level probably won't pick up Haste, Enlarge Person or Resist Energy unless he's focused on buffing.
That and things like divinations, teleport, true seeing and so on - stuff that martials can't do anyway, so letting the wizard do those things isn't a balance issue.

Also keep in mind that very few wizards are played anywhere close to their theoretical limit in actual games. You don't need to balance something your player could be doing if they aren't doing it.

More spell access is already gated behind scribing time as it is. It still takes 2 full days to scribe a spell, one day to study the spell and one to scribe, with very few options to reduce that time.
Which also cost gold, so it's not like the wizard is getting them for free.
Adding a penalty to WBL (beyond standard spellbook value) on top of that doesn't really balance anything and makes no sense.

Expended consumables - as in things you no longer have - don't count against WBL, so why should a scroll expended for scribing?
It's a houserule no one needs that just feels like a punishment for playing wizard.

[Darg]

A found spellbook is worth the cost of purchasing the book and the cost of inscribing the spells into the spellbook. A normal spellbook with 100 pages of spells is worth 10,015gp for example. I take the value if the spellbook and subtract it from the expected treasure value and then use what's remaining to generate treasure.

New members to a party, I never allow to purchase services as part of their WBL. If they want to start with extra spells, they buy the scrolls.

Otherwise they spend earned treasure to get more spells.

[RandomPeasant]

I also allow a found scroll to basically be cast into the spell book, copying itself as it's read. For free! I mean, the scroll is consumed, but that's the only cost.

It actually used to be that you could just stick scrolls directly into spellbooks.

All of them. Otherwise you might as well be a sorcerer.

If the Wizard scribes zero spells beyond what they get from level up into their spellbook ever, they will have as many 4th level spells known as the Sorcerer ever gets when the Sorcerer gets their first 4th level spell known. I'm fine with letting people scribe new spells easily, but you are very much better off than the Sorcerer even under an extremely strict set of rulings.

Which also cost gold, so it's not like the wizard is getting them for free.

And that gold cost is a constraint. I'm not going to spend 500 GP to learn secret chest.

Adding a penalty to WBL (beyond standard spellbook value) on top of that doesn't really balance anything and makes no sense.

It absolutely makes sense. The game indicates that both scribing from other Wizards and scribing from scrolls have gold costs. I can understand why you would be able to trade spells with people without paying cost, but the idea that it doesn't make sense to pay a cost the game explicitly says you should pay is not reasonable.

Expended consumables - as in things you no longer have - don't count against WBL, so why should a scroll expended for scribing?

You don't expend the scroll when scribing ("A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll."). So if you decide you want to learn teleport from a scroll, you still do have the teleport scroll, and can then use it normally or sell it off at half price to recoup some of your costs. That is really not unreasonable, and very much consistent with the other ways Wizards are expected to learn spells.

[sleepyphoenixx]

And that gold cost is a constraint. I'm not going to spend 500 GP to learn secret chest.

So don't. Nobody is forcing you to scribe spells you don't consider worth it.

It absolutely makes sense. The game indicates that both scribing from other Wizards and scribing from scrolls have gold costs. I can understand why you would be able to trade spells with people without paying cost, but the idea that it doesn't make sense to pay a cost the game explicitly says you should pay is not reasonable.

There's a difference between paying the cost and counting that cost against WBL.
You pay scribing fees or the cost of a scroll to copy from, but the only thing that counts against WBL is the value of your spellbook.

You don't expend the scroll when scribing ("A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll."). So if you decide you want to learn teleport from a scroll, you still do have the teleport scroll, and can then use it normally or sell it off at half price to recoup some of your costs. That is really not unreasonable, and very much consistent with the other ways Wizards are expected to learn spells.

I think you got a little confused there. The spell doesn't vanish from the scroll if you fail to successfully copy it, but if the copying succeeds the spell vanishes from the scroll.

If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can
copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook,
below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from
unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell.
She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains
another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a
scroll does not vanish from the scroll.

[RandomPeasant]

There's a difference between paying the cost and counting that cost against WBL.
You pay scribing fees or the cost of a scroll to copy from, but the only thing that counts against WBL is the value of your spellbook.

Do you have a citation to that effect? Because you have demonstrably gained an ongoing benefit from paying the cost. Unless you would like to argue that a stat tome doesn't count against WBL long-term?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Do you have a citation to that effect?

Just as gaining a level requires between thirteen and
fourteen encounters of a party’s level, so too fourteen average rolls
on the table at the party’s level will get them the treasure they
need to gain the appropriate amount for the next highest level,
assuming that the PCs expend some resources such as potions and
scrolls during those encounters.

Wealth by level is the treasure you're supposed to have after spending some on consumables. Once they're gone they're no longer wealth.

Because you have demonstrably gained an ongoing benefit from paying the cost. Unless you would like to argue that a stat tome doesn't count against WBL long-term?

The ongoing benefit you've gained already has a value assigned to it. It's the value of your spellbook.
Your spellbook is worth the same no matter if you copied all your spells from scrolls, got them all free from levelups or copied from another wizard for the standard fee.
And that's the cost that counts against WBL.

[Darg]

Wizards and Treasure
If you’re designing an encounter with a wizard, subtract the value of a spellbook and material components (see Selling a Spellbook, page 179 of the Player’s Handbook) from the average treasure value before you start rolling up treasure. Alternatively, you can add the up the value of all the components and the spellbook and compare the total value to Table 3–3: Treasure Values per Encounter. Find the level that most closely approaches that total, and subtract it from the level of the encounter. Use that new level to generate the rest of the treasure.

On the same page, you have the wealth comparison table which outlines that characters are supposed to receive more treasure than wealth to help pay for expenses.

As you can see, rewards using these tables generate more wealth than indicated. We assume characters use up that additional money on expenses such as being raised from the dead, potions, scrolls, ammunition, food, and so forth.

Your job is to compare the wealth gained from the encounters in your adventure with the expected wealth gain shown on the table above. If your adventure has more treasure, reduce it. If your adventure has less treasure, plant enough treasure not related to encounters to match the value (see Other Treasure, below).

Your job is also to make sure that wealth gets evenly distributed. The third column in the table above shows that each character should get an equal share of the treasure from an adventure. If a single item, such as a magic staff, makes up most of the treasure, then most of the party earns nothing for their hard work. While you can make it up to them in later adventures, it is best to use the methods described in this chapter to ensure an even distribution of wealth.

The value of a spellbook is what counts against WBL. One time use items/services once rendered are no longer wealth and therefore do not count against WBL. That said, one shouldn't discount the cost of having to purchase more spells over restocking consumables and keeping an eye on multiple spellbooks.

[AnonJr]

How many spells is going to depend - in large part - on how rare or plentiful magic is. The more rare, the less likely they're going to get much more than the normal amount of leveling. The more plentiful, the more likely they're going to run across scrolls, shops, and random loot.

From there it's going to be limited by time and money constraints. Low wealth game? Likely not *that* much more than regular leveling... spells be expensive. Hoard coming to wreak the town in a week? Not exactly a lot of downtime for scribing stuff.

Beyond that, the variety of spells a wizard can collect is one of the benefits of the class. Even assuming every spell ever written could be located, there's still the money and downtime issues. On top of that, it's still one page per spell level, each spell, in your book... won't take too long before you need to start shunting loot into renting a barbarian to tote your books.

And more than that, there's still the spells-per-day issue. 15th level wizard, every spell in the compendium - you still only get the 2 7th-level spells per day. Which 2 are you picking? Are they the right ones? Can you make them work even if they're not the "right" ones? A lot of a wizard's power is theoretical, in that if you happen to very presciently prepared the exact right spells in the exact right number for today's adventure, you'll kill it. Got 3 fireballs but run into something immune? Hope you've invested feats in energy substitution... Oh, you can't switch on the fly - that's the sorcerer's bag.

In practice more than a fair amount of this will balance itself out. Someone will surely run a litany of items that increase spells-per-day or spell recovery or some other "way around my issues" - which is money spent on items and not more spells. Choices in life.